RIR parades take off?
A confidential email sent by the DUP to me and several thousand others appeals to the majority on Belfast City Council to host a homecoming parade for the Royal Irish regiment after a service in St Anne’s Cathedral.
“Councillor Robin Newton the DUP group leader, said that on Friday morning the Strategic Policy and Resources Committee will discuss the provision of hospitality for members of the armed forces following a Homecoming Parade to St Anne’s Cathedral. “I hope that all committee members will be able to support the civic reception and that those who feel they are unable to vote for will at least not vote against. The worst thing for the city will be if this issue becomes a political football with the resulting bad feeling that will be generated.”
Will Sinn Fein jump with McElduff? Or will Tom Hartley show magnanimity? Can the DUP resist treating the homecoming from Afghanistan as a sectarian badge of honour and keep the issue dignified? Mr Newton in this statement is setting a good example.
The ball now seems to be rolling throughout the province, with councils dividing along predictable llines. Interestingly, this doesn’t seem to have put the MOD and the Army top brass off the whole idea. But are the returning soldiers expected to wear their boots out hiking round every council district prepared to give them a welcome? Or would one parade in Belfast and maybe another in Ballymena
( still, I think, the regiment’s symbolic HQ) be regarded as sufficient?
Garibaldy
“And btw, anyone trying to separate RIR involvement in Afghanistan from Iraq is being completely disingenuous. Have we forgotten Tim Collins so soon?”
Actually, I find it depressing that so many commenters on here have just spouted off about “Iraq and Afghanistan” without a second’s pause to analyse the different contexts and circumstances of the two deployments.
Interestingly is saw a quote about an SDLP councillor in Castlereagh doing just that and making distinctions between how he viewed the two.
Mike,
I’m well aware of the difference in the two contexts. But also the similarities.
Despite the propaganda the invasion of Afghanistan was just as wrong as the invasion of Iraq.
And it was certainly not a response to 9/11.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/preplanned.html
The only upside is that the Afghan resistance are currently doing a grand job of driving the invaders out.
Re: Post 25 Garibaldi
Not only are they ‘at the gates of Vienna’ they are inside the gates of every major city in Europe, just look at London 7/7 or Madrid. Like it or not the civilised world is now in full scale conflict with those who want to drag us back to the dark ages – do you really want the Taliban to truimph in Afghanistan? do you really want Hamas to truimph in Palestine? Ask your sisters or any other woman you know. Modern Europe is a product of the Rennaisance and the Enlightenment, and all those ideas which make us free are what the Islamic fundamentalists wish to destroy. If that makes me ‘pro-american’ on this issue then too bad, but whats your suggestion for dealing with these people??
Not only are they ‘at the gates of Vienna’ they are inside the gates of every major city in Europe
There used to be a lot of people who would talk like this. Not so many nowadays.
Shush< Dublin Exile, Runciter's just about to tell you quite how Don Rumsfeld strapped the parachute on and bailed out of that first plane he crashed into the WTC, and then clambered into the 2nd plane, before doing it all over again, and then got to the Pentagon in time to set off those explosive charges.
Dublin Exile,
“they are inside the gates of every major city in Europe”
Thats precisely the point.
The initital invasion of Afghanistan was in my opinion just about justified but now its a face saving exercise and one that will undoubtedly end in tears and no doubt acts to increase the numbers that “are inside the gates of every major city in Europe”.
The British army recenlty admitted that their fine men beat to death an unarmed civilian in Iraq and decided not to charge the culprits with murder – now there will always be a few bad eggs as we like to say – but tolerance for such behaviour will surely also add to the numbers “inside the gates of every major city in Europe”.
As a humorous aside, the army said by way of reassurance, that they had now improved their training and that all soldiers would be now shown a video telling them that they should not beat people to death. I suppose it was naive of some of us think, given some their previous behaviour that they might have been told this on day one.
Dublin Exile,
How are the Islamists – who let’s not forget the western powers backed against a secular regime in Afghanistan, not much concern for women then – in a position to threaten western society? In sheer power terms, they are not. Not even close. And anyone who stops and thinks about it for a second can see that. They lack the arms or the numbers to bring down western civilisation. And in case you haven’t noticed, Hamas won the election in Palestine. Do western values stop when we don’t like the results? Apparently so. On top of that, the Palestenians make clear that they do not see themselves as part of a broader crusade, but rather are trying to establish their own rights.
The argument that European-style civilisation is under threat from Muslims either at home or abroad is so hysterical that it makes Joe Mc Carthy look like a model of judgment.
Interestingly, this doesn’t seem to have put the MOD and the Army top brass off the whole idea. But are the returning soldiers expected to wear their boots out hiking round every council district prepared to give them a welcome? Or would one parade in Belfast and maybe another in Ballymena
( still, I think, the regiment’s symbolic HQ) be regarded as sufficient?
Brian, I would actually canvas how many RIR soldiers would want a public parade. But since Army HQ in NI is at Thiepval Barracks, Lisburn, surely that should be the venue.
A slap up meal, a free bar afterwards, and perhaps some female company would be appreciated I am sure. The top brass could go to Hillborough.
It could all be done with minimum fuss, and only those looking far and wide for an excuse to be offended would be.
Driftwood,
“and perhaps some female company would be appreciated I am sure”
I think it only fair, that in these enlightened times, all sexual persuasions should be accomodated – though probably best not to tell Iris.
Well,Sammy, along with the veggie meal option, I’m sure that could be arranged. And the female soldiers (surely not still called greenfinches) accomodated likewise.
Maybe Iris could arrange to do a bible reading. The squaddies night prefer that to a free bar.
What Garibaldy said, plus, all the talk of the brave boys risking their lives – a cursory examination of the figures online would show that they are safer than the civilians of said countries by a considerable factor.
Not soldiers v. soldiers. That’s soldier’s v. people. They took a job, which they get paid to do, and while they are not to blame for the decisions which lead to the deaths of many tens of thousand of civilians they do not need any special thanks for their role in the hugely unpopular, and illegal war on terror.
Shush Dublin Exile, Runciter’s just about to tell you quite how Don Rumsfeld strapped the parachute on etc etc
“Niaz Naik, a former Pakistani Foreign Secretary, was told by senior American officials in mid-July that military action against Afghanistan would go ahead by the middle of October.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1550366.stm
Modern Europe is a product of the Rennaisance and the Enlightenment, and all those ideas which make us free are what the Islamic fundamentalists wish to destroy.
Much of the knowledge of the renaisance was stolen from the islamists as they were far more enightened then the europeans at that time
They certainly were Steve.
I reckon the crusades had a lot to do with what has been a regression/stagnation.
Anyhow this may surprise some people but I’m with the loonies, I reckon a right good hard conversation is needed regarding the threat within. Ie. Islamic fundamentalism, perhaps even re-writing the HR rights act ect.
What say you all?
I reckon Dublin Exile has been reading this
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0821/1219243760069.html
PE,
what do you want to do to the human rights act? Allow internment of non-Irish people?
Actually No, I hadn’t read it. I’ve no problem with Muslims who accept democracy, are willing to treat women as equals and believe that people with a different religion to themselves have a right to worship freely as they see fit. None of this applies to the Taliban, Al Quieda or your friends in Hamas.
None of this means that I support ‘crusades’ by western countries – either today or in the middle ages, but anyone who chooses to ignore the threat to our european/western freedoms from Islamic fundamentalism is just whistling past the graveyard.
FGS they went mental when the cartoon of Mohammad was published in a newspaper, they issued a jihad against Salman Rushdie. Does any regular user of any internet forum seriously believe that Islamic Fundamentalists support their right to blog or get involved in online debate?
Wake up and smell the coffee lads.
Eh, Hamas are not my mates. I despise all religious nationalism, but equally I know an election winner when I see it. Now the point at hand is this. What is the scale of the threat from Islamic fundamentalism? So far in Europe they have managed 7/7, the Madrid train bombing, and some bombs in Paris. Even if we throw 9/11 into the mix, it’s hardly sufficient to bring down nuclear armed powers, and the end of civilisation as we know it. In addition, Muslims have shown that they can integrate into the existing political systems both in Britain and Ireland. Where are the Islamist organisations with mass support? They simply don’t exist. Anywhere in Europe. What might give Islamism the potential to achieve mass support – as happened with Hamas – is repression, sectarianism, racism, occupation and imperialist adventures aimed at securing strategic advantages, mainly oil reserves, in Muslim countries. In other words, the idea that we need to go over there and fight them to stop them coming here. It is attitudes like yours – embodied in the erosion of civil liberties in the UK and US since the terrorist attacks – that are the danger to the legacy of the Enlightenment.
The US and our own MoD have publicly stated that the engagement in Afghanistan, if not Iraq, is long term. It is a NATO force protecting democracy in Afghanistan, witness the 10 French soldiers killed fighting the taleban last week.
What the crusaders need is better PR to show the muslim people the benefits, the RIR and other units in 16 Air Assault Brigade are bringing to that country.
Not ‘crusaders’ doh! protectors.
anyway, looks like the issue is up and running
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7576855.stm
All of our armed forces will be invited, so nobody should be getting hot under the collar about this.
Garibaldi -
Muslims living in Europe and enjoying the freedoms which have evolved here are not, with the exception of a tiny minority, supportive of Islamic fundamentalists, so any repression directed against them is wrong, sectarian, and in most cases racist too.
The problem for Europe is that in places like Afghanistan, Palistine and Saudi Arabia, fundamentalism is flourishing and we are portrayed as the great Evil. So whether we like it or not, we are the enemy. Appeasement has been tried in the face of fascism before and failed, it will fail in the face of Islamic fundamentalism too. These guys arent looking for a deal or an ‘accomodation’ with the west, they are on a mission from god. For that reason I think the UN mandated mission in Afghanistan should be supported, and those who are sent to fight there should be given due recognition when they come home.
Dulin Exile, when you invade countries, abuse and torture prisoners, set -up undemocratic constructs like Guantanamo Bay then certainly you should expect to be considered the enemy.
Fundamentally the middle east needs sorted out once and for all, the creation of a Palestinian state must be the absolute priority for the incumbent US president. Stability in the middle east will help ease the overall tension and allow a new entante to develop.
War-mongering, right-wing assholes who ‘support the war on terror’ blindly are just helping to stoke the flames.
Let’s reach for the extinguisher.
Let’s see some sense.
War-mongering, right-wing assholes who ‘support the war on terror’ blindly are just helping to stoke the flames. ???
The NATO protection force in Afghanistan is there to relieve that country of the Taliban. And help rebuild communities. That is the remit of the RIR in that country. Bloody good job they are doing to. For a pittance.
Gari
>>what do you want to do to the human rights act? Allow internment of non-Irish people?<<
I had posted a reply here ages ago but it hasn’t registered, sorry. I think my computer is playing up or slugger is.
I reckon the HR Act needs to be at the very least re-written to take into account the needs of victims and potential victims, ie you and I, as well as those accused of crimes. Instead of having orchestrater’s of, or attempted suicide bombers free to roam at will after completing their sentences, we need to throw them out. Same with rapists etc. There has been a few cases of illegals raping and doing so again instead of being repatriated. I know all about sending them home to countries that has the death penalty…………tough!
A Scots guy on my fitba team in Oz got drinking with a bad Aussie crown one night. He had to step into to stop a Vietnamese shopkeeper being at the very least sexually assaulted by guys he thought were going to be at the five finger discount. They got suspended sentences or some such and he got chucked out of the country, and he wasn’t illegal. A thank-you for protecting the lady but what the frig were you doing there in the first place. Fair cop.
crown = crowd.
PE,
Not sure about sending people places that have the death penalty. Having said that, I agree we need protected from terrorists. But easier said than done. Apply what you are suggesting to the Irish community in London during the 70s and 80s, and you have a recipe for disaster, with increased bitterness etc. I do think we can treat people who aren’t citizens differently to some extent. A medium can be found, but short of putting suspects (and such they are) on an island all on their own, not really sure what.
Dub Exile,
There is some evidence that support for extremism is falling. But even allowing that it is flourishing, we might ask ourselves why. Certainly it is clear that the situation in Palestine is far from helpful to say the least. Nor are wars on Muslim countries. I have to say I find the thought that the Taleban were a threat to western civilisation absolutely laughable. Maybe Al Qaeda or some such organisation would train and flourish in such a regime. But it would remain a terrorist organisation. And no terrorist organisation is capable of destroying an entire civilisation. Has the situation in Afghanistan made things better or worse in Pakistan? The answer is worse.
Protecting our civil liberties and not indulging in imperialist adventures is far from appeasement.
Gari
>>Not sure about sending people places that have the death penalty.< <
Harsh, but all the more reason to keep your nose clean, isn't it? Worse I believe that there is obvious and visible exploitation of the system going on? All the more need to draw the line methinks.
>>I agree we need protected from terrorists. But easier said than done. Apply what you are suggesting to the Irish community in London during the 70s and 80s, and you have a recipe for disaster, with increased bitterness etc.< <
Sorry but you are wrong here. Many from the Irish community were British subjects anyhow, some had fought in the armed forces etc. And the reciprocal agreements/arrangements between Britain and Ireland meant they could not apply. Also the conflict was part of an internal problem within the UK itself.
>>I do think we can treat people who aren’t citizens differently to some extent. A medium can be found, but short of putting suspects (and such they are) on an island all on their own, not really sure what.<<
That is the whole point, those of us not of the right have dared not speak about it too much. Hence we leave the field open to exploitation. Now considering that we see plenty black and Asian faces, especially illegals up for causing mayhem of all sorts, sooner or later the worm that is the easy going Joe public is going to turn. This is in no way a racist statement, it is a statement of fact.
PE,
Just quickly on the Irish thing. The government was able to ban UK citizens from NI travelling to other parts of the UK during the Troubles, and I don’t see any reason why it mightn’t have started deporting criminals and suspects for national security reasons. I think the result would have been increased alienation and support for violence, and increased racism against the Irish. It’s that aspect I’m interested in rather than the Irish per se. I guess we might have said the same about Cypriots during the 50s.
I think most mayhem is caused by natives in GB. Certainly that’s the feeling I get about the spate of stabbings and shootings of teenagers in London say. But I agree there is a perception that needs to be dealt with. I’m not in favour of internment, but there are methods short of that like control orders. Provided they are used sensibly, I am not totally against them.
>>The government was able to ban UK citizens from NI travelling to other parts of the UK during the Troubles< <
That's right, did that ever get challenged in Europe? Can't see how that could stand.
>>I guess we might have said the same about Cypriots during the 50s.< <
True enough except that Cyprus was not an internal problem.
>>I think most mayhem is caused by natives in GB.<<
Totally ignoring the elephant Gari. Many of these GB inhabitants have black or brown faces, many were not born here, many were taken in as refugees when in reality some were just economic migrants at the scam. Successfully as it turns out. I bet there is more Kosovans here than there was in Kosovo pre-conflict, for example.
An important aside is that the bar a few dozen murderous bombings over the near 30 years where civilians were casualties in Ireland and England, the conflict was totally different to that which would be inflicted on us by Islamic extremists. It is undoubtedly a whole new ball game.
I’ve not idea if it ever got challenged, but I guess they were an early form of control orders. I think you can pretty much do what you like if it’s on national security grounds.
As for economic migrants, I think the Irish should be the last people to complain about that, though clearly there were deeply sinister people from the former Yugoslavia (or all the nationalities there) who exploited the situation to set up criminal networks abroad. I have no problem with deporting women traffickers etc back.
The main difference I see with the Troubles and the Islamists boils down to support. You really are talking about a tiny minority rather than groups with substantial support. I think effective surveillance and policing is the answer – it’s pretty much worked since July 2005. I really think the danger is exaggerated, though the intentions of the Islamist terrorists are large scale.
>>As for economic migrants, I think the Irish should be the last people to complain about that< <
I've been one myself, though should I have committed a serious fine I would have been parped oot the country in nae time. The same should apply here.
>>I really think the danger is exaggerated, though the intentions of the Islamist terrorists are large scale.< <
Yep agreed, the threats have been used to put us in a state of fear and alarm many times. I wonder if we will ever find out which ones were real. Anyhow it helped push through some government policies. And these guys would have us destroyed, man wimmen and weans.
>>I think effective surveillance and policing is the answer – it’s pretty much worked since July 2005.<<
Really, sorry but I disagree. I remember the British secret services saying that they would need to take on thousands for this to even come close to working. Anyhow how much is this costing. Get rid of them by deporting them back to wherever they came or whoever will have them, simple as that. The time has past for trying to contain them.
Not sure much more to say, PE, but I think the near total absence of any attacks since 2005 does speak well of the efforts against the Islamists. Look at that attack on Glasgow airport. Amateurish doesn’t begin to cover it. I think personally that the fund of militants prepared and able to do something in the UK is largely exhausted. The question we need to address is how can we avoid a new generation being able to take over.
http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/politician-parade-controversy-and-a-replica-gun/
could be high-jacked by undesirables