Obama-McCain – the pastor was in the saddle
So the pastors are still in the saddle. Are reports of the eclipse of the religious right in this Presidential campaign premature? The prequel to the Obama-McCain main bout has just been held in a “Megachurch forum” in Saddleback Church California, moderated by the pastor no less, Rick Warren. The BBC’s Justin Webb appears to deplore this but EJ Dionne jnr of the Washington Post invites us to think again.
Quote:
“The notion that Christianity in general and evangelicalism in particular are by nature right-wing creeds has always been wrong. How can a faith built around a commitment to the poor and the vulnerable be seen as leading ineluctably to conservative political conclusions?
And when political commentators talk about “evangelicals,” they are almost always talking about white evangelicals, forgetting that millions of African Americans are devout evangelical Christians and are hardly part of the conservative base”.
The verdict on the debate was generally mixed, McCain having the edge for crispness but with a tie registering with Huffington’s young blogger. And there was a spat over whether McCain cheated by improperly overhearing the questions to MCain.
NY Times quote
“..It was McCain’s night. Obama made no big mistakes. But his tendency to somewhat windy generalities meant he wasn’t particularly compelling. McCain, who went second, was crisp by contrast, and his anecdotes colorful.”
Will Obama continue to trim or will he stake out firm new ground for a new era of secular politics in the US?
American politics seem to be increasingly theocratic.
I cant imagine someone running for president who was an athiest.
The founding fathers had written into the constitution that there was no religious qualification for office.
Now I fear there is…………..
At least there is one realist at the HuffPost: Although Obama wins points for showing up, McCain was the clear winner
I’m always intrigued by oh so sophisticated Europeans who sneer at the concept of political candidates discussing their religious beliefs or lack of them. I think it shows a profound maturity on behalf of US politicians who are prepared to answer frankly questions about their personal and moral beliefs and whether morality should have a place in politics and society.
Instead Europeans snigger like schoolboys at such an embarrassing thought and restrict their poltical debate to how to administer a centrist left/centrist right economic policy whilst utterly ignoring the massive issues that actually affect voters but which the politicians have deemed from on high may not be discussed (national sovereignty, sexual morality, mass immigration etc).
I find the US system much more open, honest and refreshing.
Harry there is a european who is clearly driven by faith.
his name is Tony blair and there are a million dead Iraqis to prove his devotion to his imaginary friend jesus.
The USA is becoming a theocracy-it is going to be a feature of America’s decline in this century
After engaging as many Obamites as I can stand, I get the feeling that they are only the thin, elitist thinking, layer of our fine country. Their freedom is freedom from legal, financial, ethical, and social consequences. While the silent majority becomes more and more disgusted with this Democratic clown show. I thought early on, that Obama was a shoe in. Not any more. His circus is becoming truly exposed. The convention will be the final blow to his charade of the century. I’m not to familiar with mainstream religious beliefs of the EU, but, believe me, the VAST majority of Americans have a good moral, religious, belief system. The more these liberal fools bray their horrible little truths, the further away the majority slides.
are a million dead Iraqis
HA!
Turn in the tinfoil hat for industrial grade copper.
Another useful idiot..
Billions of your lot agree with you…
If Americans have good moral etc etc where does that leave all those dead Iraqis?
And, of course, the innocentgs of Tehran soon to be bombed?
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain, you do talk a load of old drivel!
6countyprod play the ball-even when the man is a lowly taig ;0)
Rick Warren isn’t the worst of his kind, but he knows a gap in the spiritual/political marketplace when he sees it.
http://richarddawkins.net/article,825,The-God-Debate,Sam-Harris-Rick-Warren-Newsweek
For those who are for some obscure reason uncomfortable (ie the BBC correspondent mentioned above, quelle surprise) with the idea that the two men who are running for the highest office in their nation should have an upfront and frank discussion about their core moral values and the path they’d like to see for their country, they should at least recognise that the conversations provided a clearer and more honest picture of what sort of man Senator Obama is.
Asked about his position on abortion he said straight out that he was “pro-choice”, fair enough that’s his political position and he wasn’t about to back away from it. Then when asked at what point he believed human life began he said such a question was ‘above his pay grade’, above his pay grade? The man is running for president of the United States! Surely he must have given some thought to such a fundamentally basic concept of humanity? Not once when coming around to his “pro-choice” position did he ever come to any conclusion about that matter? When he was mentored for twenty years by Jeremiah Wright his radical preacher did he ever ask him about this?
He can parse and analyse the minuscule differences between his and Hillary’s health care programme, he can come up with solutions to the oil crisis by inflating car tyres he can even claim that his nomination would stop the seas rising (President Canute?) but on an absolutely rock solid core value he’s out to lunch.
The man’s a clown, the Democrats have thrown away any chance of winning the White House in 2008.
“the massive issues that actually affect voters… (national sovereignty, sexual morality, mass immigration etc).”
I think that Harry Flashman may find that the Taliban in Afghanistan are pretty hot on this “sexual morality” business and quite prepared to fight to the death on the issue of national sovereignity while being none too pleased about the recent influx of unwelcome hostile immigrants from parts west. Can we take it, Harry that they thus enjoy your full unqualified support?
Nice on Rory.
the Taleban are a “faith based organisation” LOL
I made no judgement on the issues, merely on the fact that at least dumbass Americans get to hear their leaders discuss the issues and then vote according to their beliefs.
We wonderfully suave and nuanced Europeans get Big Brother and Pop Idol.
I know the system that I prefer.
European leaders never really did like allowing the proles to think for themselves, so much better to leave it to the clever elites to decide don’t you think? Actually given Europe’s rather poor historical record in the last century not letting the proles get control might be the least worst option!
harry you have some very weird ideas about the freedom and openess of American elections
PMGB: To imply that because of Tony Blair there are a million dead Iraqis is the biggest load of drivel, rubbish, claptrap, poppycock that anyone could say.
I suppose you also think that the suffering caused by the Omagh bomb is TB’s responsibility, rather than Irish Republicans!
TB was very much the architecht of the Iraq war-he should be in the hague-sadly the Americans are not signed up to the ICC
If Americans have good moral etc etc where does that leave all those dead Iraqis?
At the feet of the murdering Islamic terrorist bastards responsible for their deaths. AKA your friends.
Didn’t McCain say he was going to continue the Iraq war indefinitely, and pursue Osama to the gates of hell.
Obama stonewalled some questions alright, but you’d expect that of any politician. Wont make much difference to us, and neither will David Cameron
BfB
fallujah
Hadditha
Abu Ghraib
Dear oh dear…………….
Harry, you seem to be saying that we are worse off in Europe because our politicians don’t, generally, openly discuss their religious beliefs during election campaigns like in America. I disagree.
Firstly, I’d say appearing at evangelical events such as these has a lot more to do with trying to win over the christian fundamentalist vote than it does with the candidates fulfilling some buring desire to discuss their beliefs (or lack of belief). This isn’t political maturity it’s just good old-fashioned electioneering.
Secondly, the idea that someone could appear at one of these events to discuss their lack of belief is laughable. Atheism in the USA is almosty akin to child moleatation in some people’s eyes, no candidate in their right mind would ever even imply that they had a lack of belief. No one would ever consider running for El Presidente in the US as an open atheist, so instead of the candidates being ‘prepared to answer frankly questions about their personal and moral beliefs and whether morality should have a place in politics and society’, they are more likely to have been forced to over-emphasise whatever religious beliefs they do have & of course conflate these beliefs with morality.
Thirdly, it can’t be a comfortable experience for those voters who are not Christians to see the to candidates indulge is a ‘Jesus-off’. At least in Europe our mainstream politicians respect the plurality of the electorate & don’t ened up alienating people by harping on about how much they love the christian god. I don’t think those who enter poltiics here have conspiried to not mention relion in their public life becasue it makes things easier for them, I think it’s just a recognition of the fact that most people in Europe don’t want to hear about it becasue it is utterly irrelevant to your capacity to be a good elected representative.
Clearly the USA is a much more religiously-minded society than any in Europe, I think that is why US political figures mention their religious beliefs more openly than we do here, not because we poor proles have been the victims of some continent-wide conspiracy by our politicians to hide their beliefs.
Driftwood: Didn’t McCain say he was going to continue the Iraq war indefinitely
No, Driftwood, he didn’t. You need to get a little perspective on reality.
Listen carefully to what he actually said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFknKVjuyNk
fallujah
Hadditha
Abu Ghraib
add up to a million Iraqis?!?
‘believe me, the VAST majority of Americans have a good moral, religious, belief system. ‘
That they do. That’s why there are 3 million behind bars , and prisons are used not only for convicted criminals, but also to house the mentally handicapped
This could be also why a huge number of American corporate executives are behind bars for having been convicted of stealing and embezzling everything from pension funds to using every con game in the financial services sector to defraud ordinary americans . The corporate crime wave , an unpopular war , two million foreclosures not to mention the biggest deficit in USA financial history and Americans could be forgiven for turning away from the politicians , and the Wall St purveyors of mass destruction , and turn instead to religion ?
Surely God has an answer for his chosen special people ?
But when they do what they find in too many cases is just another shower of thieves and con men disguised as Jesus people. And if the sight of often obscene and frequently insane money grabbing televangelists does’nt help , they can resort to the Catholic Church where they will be greeted with an institution so riddled with sexual predators of the young that they have lost any pretence for moral guidance that they might have held a generation ago .
But despite the above the ‘vast majority’ of Americans do have a ‘good moral and religious belief system ‘
The problem is that within that vast majority is a large minority some commentators estimate it at some 30 to 35 % of the population who are so caught up in their ‘religiosity’ that they have forsaken reason in favour of ‘rapture ‘ and salvation by grace and faith alone . Most of these people are located in Jesusland (the South ) but there are signifcant pockets everywhere from Utah and it’s Mormons to Florida and it’s ‘Scientologists ‘ .
This is now the big divide in the USA along with the growing divide between the financial have lots and the financial not only having little but even having that little taken from then . Polls have shown that the Republicans have consistently won the vast majority of these 30% and to date they have delivered the election for Republicans . They won the 2004 and 2000 election for Bush . The mainly Mormon State of Utah gave Bush his biggest majority and they vote usually 85% plus republican – There are 5 million Mormons in the USA .
It will be interesting to see whether the ‘ultra believers’ will be suckered again into voting against their economic interest . But then many of them now believe that with Jesus just about ready to drop down and save everybody from Satan and rapture the followers of the Rev ‘send me your donation ‘ from the local mega church, why should they be worried about the economy -after all they are going to enjoy an eternity in heaven soon enough with Jesus and his choir of angels and then they’ll no longer have to worry about losing the house , feeding the family, or borrowing money up to the eyeballs to pay for health care and college for the kids, while enjoying the shortest life expectancy of all the developed countries
One other point for those who think that the 30% of ‘nutters’ will fade away – the birth rate amongst the ‘born againers’ is and has been a lot higher for this section of USA society than for the rest . And as we should know from NI politics – political opinions are formed in the womb and generally remain constant for most people from erection to resurrection or rapture for that matter .
All declining empires and great states share some things in common yet they also differ The USA is no different from 17th century Spain , 18th century Holland or 20th century Britain as it loses it’s perch of world leadership .
Bush has hastened that demise by a combination of fiscal and foreign policy errors on a scale that would have embarassed the Emperors Nero and Caligula
Hadditha ?
What about it?
6countyprod
I stand corrected.
Mccain still seems deluded though that Al Queda originated in Saddams Iraq. They didn’t. And Afhanistan appears to becoming the quagmire it always has been.
The ‘morality’ here appears to be warped.
Oh well, at least its not raining.
Greenflag
This could be also why a huge number of American corporate executives are behind bars for having been convicted of stealing and embezzling everything from pension funds to using every con game in the financial services sector to defraud ordinary americans
Don’t kid yourself GF the prisons these guys go to are more likely to have a wet bar then Iron bars on the windows. After all the same people that make the prisons are the same people who eventually end up in them
“BfB
fallujah
Hadditha
Abu Ghraib
Dear oh dear…………….”
Phil, Falujah was a very hard urban battle fought house to house by US Marines against some extremely tough Al Qaeda fighters (many, if not most, of whom were not actually Iraqi) who gave every bit as good as they got in open warfare.
Haditha is a very confused incident the initial wild claims about which have since turned out to be extremely exaggerated.
Abu Gharaib was a case of some prisoners being treated in a somewhat humiliating way by a handful of badly trained and ill led prison guards.
The debate about their significance will no doubt continue but we’re well short of that mythical million dead Iraqis you keep going on about, aren’t we?
As regards the main issue, remind me again why it is bad that political candidates should wish to discuss their political and moral philosophies with interested members of the electorate during an election year?
BfB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings
warcrime
Top stuff Green Flag. The USA is a declining empire that is becoming increasingly theocratic.
Harry
My reference to Fallujah was the slaughter of unarmed civilians by US troops.
This was before the killing of the four Black water contractors and,of course, before the battles in that city.
‘As regards the main issue, remind me again why it is bad that political candidates should wish to discuss their political and moral philosophies with interested members of the electorate during an election year?’
No one said it was bad. You implied that Americans were in some sort of better position than Europeans to elect their leaders because they show up to these events to discuss their beliefs, I don’t think they are. As I said, this sort of campaigning conflates religion with morality & alienates anyone who doesn’t share the attendees’ entusiasm for Jesus.
Polticians here also discuss their political & moral philosophies, they just choose to do so without trumpeting one set of religious beliefs over all others.
Harry, do you believe Obama or McCain are actually as religiously-minded as they may profess to be at these events?
Harry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORB_survey_of_Iraq_War_casualties
Not so mythical
Dev
‘No one would ever consider running for El Presidente in the US as an open atheist’
Nor in Iran. The difference being that in the USA being an atheist is not YET a capital crime .
harry flash:
‘at least dumbass Americans get to hear their leaders discuss the issues ‘
Such as
When does life start ?
How many angels on the point of a pin?
Is the anti Christ on Earth an when will Jesus come again ?
Would Abraham really have sacrificed his son ?
Why did God talk out of a burning Bush to Moses ?
Indeed the answers to all of the above should help the USA to recover from mass foreclosures – growing economic recession a depreicating dollar , a huge national deficit and the worst foreign policy pursued since King Canute addressed the ocean waves and pleaded with them to go away and not be annoyng him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_party_massacre
Harry another “confused” happening
Driftwood: “Mccain still seems deluded though that Al Queda originated in Saddams Iraq. They didn’t. ”
Then by that standard, Obama seems deluded that there are 57 states and that Arkansas borders on Indiana. Democratic leadership speak of Obama in messianic tones, claiming he is a leader that God has blessed the US with, to paraphrase Nancy Pelosi — which proves that even the devil can get religion, if it suits her purposes.
Some folks seem to have a lot of faith in wikipedia. Anyone can start an article on Wiki and say whatever they want.
I did so recently myself, although it was on something of a more factual nature than the slanders of the above mentioned wiki links relating to the Iraq war.
Phil, sorry the idea that upwards of 6% of the population of Iraq were killed as the result of being murdered by psychotic Islamist terrorists in a low-level guerilla campaign fought largely in three provinces of that country in a two to three year period is quite simply absurd and no amount of quoting ludicrous Wiki links will change that fact. Just for reference sake about a million British men, women and children both in the armed services and civilians were killed in two world wars, now seriously Phil, do you still want to stick with the “million dead Iraqis” fallacy?
GF, angels dancing on a pinhead is an entirely irrelevant concept and unless I missed it was not discussed in that debate. What defines humanity is surely the absolute and fundamental issue of all time? I believe you’re not fond of the death penalty (I’m not wildly keen on it meself), might that have something to do with recognising basic fundamental human rights?
Are basic concepts of humanity not fit subjects for political and moral debate compared to say health insurance, polar bears or tyre pressure?
‘As regards the main issue, remind me again why it is bad that political candidates should wish to discuss their political and moral philosophies with interested members of the electorate during an election year?’ – Harry Flashman
It is bad, Harry precisely because the political candidates most certainly do not “discuss their political and moral philosophies”. What they do instead is to pander to the lowest common denominator of prevailing prejudices.
If ever I had a man in my home begin to preach on “sexual morality” I should feel decidedly uncomfortable unless my fingers could reach my shotgun and I could quietly slide the safety catch to “off”.
“Show me a man with no damned vices”, said a contemporary of Lincoln “and I will show you a man with no damned virtues!”. All candidates deny having any vices and at least Bill Clinton was unable to disguise the bad boy twinkle in his eye while appearing to contrive sorrowful contrition. For which sin the hypocrites most condemned him and honest men simply shrugged.
p.s. As far as I know US television is just as venal as European television but then you may not have watched it since the heydays of The O Henry Theatre and I Love Lucy and The Phil Silvers Show and Ed Sullivan, back in the day. Even then Ed Sullivan fell prey to modern decadence and had both The Beatles and Elvis Presley as guests. Disgraceful I know but thank God at least you don’t seem to have been exposed to it. Maybe you were at your John Birch lodge meetings on those nights.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html
Not from wiki Harry-the lancet study-best statistical practice-accepted emthodology for Kosovo & Darfur.
http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_details.aspx?NewsId=88
This is not from wiki either Harry
Phil
wikipedia
enough said.
At this juncture, a quote from the WSJ seems appropriate:
It’s been a week of bullets in Georgia and blather in the West. Why was our press so outraged over the mistreatment of a dozen prisoners in Abu Ghraib but indifferent to the massive suffering of the Georgian people – who weren’t just photographed in embarrassing positions, but murdered, raped, tortured and driven from homes that the Russian army and its local henchmen destroyed? Is love of freedom a crime to our media?
You anti American, socialist, liars are useless vermin. IMHO, that is. Laftas, every one.
Critical thinking….eh?
TRUTH, try it some time.
‘The newest update to a study published in the British medical journal, the Lancet, claims that 655,000 Iraqis have been killed since the U.S. invaded Iraq. This absurd claim has been hailed around the world as evidence of the evil American empire’s murderous reign in the Mid East. But it turns out that the entire study is not only filled with lies, the creators of the study even tried to hide the fact that George Soros funded the thing.
Lafta was the man in charge of the actual collection of numbers, while another Lancet author was in Iraq but holed up in a hotel. As National Journal notes, Lafta was also a high-ranking official in Saddam Hussein’s ministry of health and there authored some of the agit-prop papers about the vast number of small children dying from sanctions the U.N. imposed after the 1990 invasion of Kuwait… So Lafta doesn’t exactly fit the definition of a trustworthy researcher except in the sense of trusting him to come to the “proper” conclusions.’
HF ,
‘What defines humanity is surely the absolute and fundamental issue of all time?
And what defines an idiot is somebody who believes that by debating ‘God’ on TV or in the political arena will somehow provide solutions or enlightenment re extremely serious and pressing problems for a country which has more than a surfeit of same.
When ‘politicians ‘ turn to God on the campaign trail or even worse in office then you can rest assured that they ,
a) have no answers to proffer for the economic and social problems which are extant in their society
b) believe its the only way to get the votes of a easy ‘mark ‘ i.e that section of society who will vote for somebody because of their ‘faith ‘ in the Lightning Giver rather than somebody who might have practical proposals for resolving major ‘real ‘ issues besetting US society.
c) use ‘religion ‘ as an ersatz for defining the ‘enemy ‘ – i.e Muslims , pointy headed intellectuals , Atheists , Jews, Rocket Scientists or evolutionists who believe that Charles Darwin actually advanced our knowledge of ‘humanity’ and life itself.
BfB
Lancet
Washington Post
New Yorker (seymour Hersh)
enough said
6countyprod the torture of prisoners has occurred in various US controlled sites since 911.
Like the invading Russian troops in georgia US troops in Iraq have killed the innocent and the unarmed with impunity
‘the Taleban are a “faith based organisation” LOL ‘
As is the USA’s Republican Party . Birds of a feather ‘buzzard ‘ together
Next up ? faith based welfare , faith based geography ? , faith based health care ? faith based economics ? faith based space program relying on russian rocketry
Cogito ergo sum to be replaced by
‘I believe therefore it is ‘ ;(
The British polling agency ORB (Opinion Research Business) issued survey results January 28 that confirm its earlier estimate that more than one million Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the American-led invasion and occupation. The British agency carried out the work in association with its Iraqi research partner, the Independent Institute for Administration and Civil Society Studies (IIACSS).
In September 2007 ORB made public its finding that an estimated 1.2 million violent deaths had taken place in Iraq since March 2003. The agency commented at the time that US-occupied Iraq had “a murder rate that now exceeds the Rwanda genocide from 1994 (800,000 murdered),” with another one million wounded and millions more driven from their homes into exile, either internal or foreign.
This isnt from wiki either
I am not surprised that some on here are unmoved by colonial slaughter…….
Probably, Phil, b/c your sources are pulling their numbers out of their fourth point of contact…
“The Lancet study authors initially told The Times that “there was no main street bias” and later amended their reply to “no evidence of a main street bias”.
Professor Spagat says the Lancet paper contains misrepresentations of mortality figures suggested by other organisations, an inaccurate graph, the use of the word “casualties” to mean deaths rather than deaths plus injuries, and the perplexing finding that child deaths have fallen. Using the “three-to-one rule” – the idea that for every death, there are three injuries – there should be close to two million Iraqis seeking hospital treatment, which does not tally with hospital reports.
“The authors ignore contrary evidence, cherry-pick and manipulate supporting evidence and evade inconvenient questions,” contends Professor Spagat, who believes the paper was poorly reviewed. “They published a sampling methodology that can overestimate deaths by a wide margin but respond to criticism by claiming that they did not actually follow the procedures that they stated.” The paper had “no scientific standing”. Did he rule out the possibility of fraud? “No.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1469636.ece