Orange challenged to lift ban on attending Catholic services…
THE Orange Order has been challenged to ‘ditch a longstanding ban preventing its members from taking part in Roman Catholic services’, according to the News Letter. A correspondent writing in the newsletter associated with Dublin and Wicklow Orange Order LOL 1313 wrote: The special place of the Roman Catholic Church in the constitution has gone. Is it not time to remove from the ‘Qualification of an Orangeman’ those references to our Roman Catholic fellow subjects of both Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic? References which they find offensive and many of us anachronistic. What better way to change without compromise than to return to the original qualifications? In doing so we would be displaying to the world that we still hold dear our Protestant principles. More than that we would be practising the instructions of scripture, on which our order is founded. The Irish News recalls how Orange spokesman David Jones called for David Trimble’s expulsion from the Order after he attended the funeral of a child killed in a Real IRA bombing. Interestingly, while googling on the subject, it seems that the Grand Orange Lodge of England’s Qualifications do not specifically prohibit attendance at Catholic services in the way the Orange Institution in Ireland does.
Like a Nazi going to a synagogue.
Gee, thanks, Diamond Dan! The process of ‘decontamination’ upping a gear this century, is it?
Although, truth to tell, I hate the nasty, right-wing supremacist organisation, but me and my family have been attending the 12th for 40 years. When we’re not doing that we write letters to “Doctor” Paisley telling him how great he is for representing us…FFS!
These comments are most ironic due to the fact that innumerable Orangemen give their lives fighting fascism and in particular the Nazi regime of the second world war.
In addition to this 5 Orange Halls were attacked last night in Northern Ireland, I will leave fair minded people to give a sensible analysis of the Orange Order.
Outsider, as laudable as the actions described in your first paragraph are and as despicable as the actions in your second paragraph are, what has that got to do with a ban on one Christian group attending another Christian group’s services?
I think it would be a very good thing if they did lift this ban. But then I am not an Orangeperson.
smcgiff
I was addressing the first two despicable remarks.
Outsider,
The first comment is not worthy of a comeback, and I’m still trying to decipher the second comment.
This (anti-Orange) claim is spurious hogwash, dishonestly meant and utterly irrelevant. I’m not an Orangeman, indeed, I am . . . a snob, and if anything, markedly unkeen on the Orange Order. Perfectly prejudiced as I am, my main thought whenever anyone mentions it isn’t parades, fields or bonfires, but instead, the drunken yahoos who come in their wake. Now as I’ve said, all of that, derived in very large part from fairly despicable social condescension on my part, is the purest bigotry. Making it no less wrong or excusable, if I were being honest, I’d have to concede that in the wake of *any* large, male-dominated outdoors activity in these islands (from footie matches downwards), drunken yahoos bob along like, well, like seagulls after the trawler, as, I believe, a great Cartesian thinker once said. And believe me, I don’t much like soccer or its Neanderthal fans either.
Okay, so there, then, are my bona fides, such as they are. I’m not keen on the Orange Order, never have been, and yes, I accept that this is a fairly petty dislike on my part. Right, onto the point: the ‘correspondent’ supposedly ‘associated’ with the Lodge down south is talking out of his erse (as we say in Malone Park). The Orange Order is not, a la some political party, voluntary youth organisation, capitalist enterprise or whatever secular entity you care to posit, just that – secular. It’s, in fact, an avowedly Christian fraternity, specifically, a reformed protestant one. Which means, it’s as absurd to belabour the Orange Order for having denominational preferences as it would be, say, to have a tilt at the Catholic church for proscribing its adherents from taking communion, for example, at another church.
As ever with all you dishonest liberal t*rds out there, if you want to have a whack at religion, ffs do it honestly. But if you really did subscribe to pluralism, and tolerance, and all the rest of your pious litany, you’d accept that the religious are allowed to be exactly that: religious. Catholic prelates can deny Catholics non-Catholic communion, Orange lodges can inveigh against unreformed religion. I’m not much interested in either proposition, but then nor am I even slightly interested in denouncing, still less, banning either proposition. I suppose that’s why I’m not a liberal.
And as for those of you who just, however insincerely, want to pick up on this as a useful hammer with which to hit at themmuns. Obviously you’ll go right ahead, and stuff the inconsistency and contradictions. After all, you’re happy as a pig in sh*t being sectarian. So what odds to you a false smear of it against the other lot?
I don’t think there is much to decipher regarding the second comment.
The Qualifications of an Orangeman sounded suspiciously like it had been plagiarised from some 1930s booklet called How to Be an Obedient Nun until it came to this part:
[i]He should strenuously oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome, and scrupulously avoid countenancing (by his presence or otherwise) any act of ceremony of Popish worship;
He should by all lawful means, resist the ascendancy of that Church, its encroachments, and the extension of its power, [b]ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions or sentiments, towards his Roman Catholic brethren;[/b][/i]
If promoting hostility to Catholics is what this organisation considers to be the hallmark of an Orangeman, then it has quite a way to go before it can be considered to be a respectable civic organisation.
On the issue of it being protestant-only, so what? I see no reason why private clubs should not be discriminatory in their membership just to placate dangerously deranged PC-mongers who would tell us next that the Dublin Chamber of Commerce should be open teachers and poets, et al, from Germany, etc.
Given that the current Grand Master of the Orange Order, Robert Saulters, branded Tony Blair a ‘Traitor’ for for attending Catholic mass and receiving communion, it’s not too difficult to predict the outcome of this.
“The first comment is not worthy of a comeback, and I’m still trying to decipher the second comment.”
Would you like a little help? Or you could join slugger’s Leg Up Programme. In the new term, I believe, they’ll be discussing irony.
Just to, ahem, withdraw my previous comment: I misread “uncharitable” as “charitable.”
I don’t consider being opposed to the catholic religion as the same thing as being opposed to catholics, and the quote doesn’t either.
Thanks Dave I wasn’t sure what you were getting at in your previous post.
Yeah, Dave, that “un-” bit gets you every time eh?
The Orange Order is full of bigots and needs to clean its act up. Its not rocket science.
Outsider,
“These comments are most ironic due to the fact that innumerable Orangemen give their lives fighting fascism and in particular the Nazi regime of the second world war.”
It’s also a fact that innumerable Catholics gave their lives fighting fascism and in particular the Nazi regime of the second world war.
As I’m sure you’re aware, more southerners signed up to fight the Nazis than northerners but that says nothing about specific Catholic or Protestant bigotry.
posted by Kathy C
Hi all,
Yes, Catholics did fight against fascism in world war II…and the Nazi’s threw alot of priest and nuns into concentration camps. That said…personally I think the orange order should be labled a hate group by the EU just as Nazi’s are.
Harry, it’s more a case of being distracted by other things than being ambushed by the adjectives that are rendered negative by said prefix. We can’t all be lazing in a hammock on some veranda in Asia, sipping piña coladas in-between laptop visits to our MySpace page to see if our new profile has sent the hit counter into overdrive.
In my experience the number of Protestants who would not attend a Catholic funeral or wedding is very low.
And those who wouldnt probably would never have any need to, if you catch my drift.
I couldnt give a shit what happens to my body after I die but I am sure some members of my familia would insist on a Catholic burial just in case.
In that case frankly I would expect all Protestant friends and aquantences to be in attendence. If they weren’t then frankly I would (metaphoricaphy speaking) only be able to draw one conclusion, hey were no friends of mine.
I have to say that I have been to a number of ecumenical funerals in the 26 counties, which at first glance may seem to be somewhat egotistical but is normally an attempt to accomadate all ones friends.
In the north I have noticed that is the priest believes that people from other faiths are present he will welcome them especially and will drop the Creed from the mass, which I dont dig fully as he will then proceed to the eucharist, but I suppose COI can just take from that what they will.
I think that the Orange rule in banning people marrying Catholics and attending Catholic services in any capacity in barbaric, BUT the Orange Order is not compulsory, not one is forced to join.
If that is what you are into, and frnakly it is not liberal tolerant or in MY PERSONAL view very Christian, then work away and hope that you never meet a nice girl called Siobhan or are expected to go to your workmate Padraig’s funeral.
Speaking as an Orangeman in a rural area I know that often this rule is not enforced. If a family member is having a wedding at a RC Church for example nothing will be said if a member attends it.
Ah…the curse of religious dogma!
BTW ‘The Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland’
But where’s this place ‘Ireland’?
I thought it was two seperate and very different countries as Unionists would tell ye us, particularly the hardline Orange type!
Should it not be the ‘The Grand Orange Lodge of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland’ instead!
Maybe it should be a KKK member attending a Civil rights march then!
Why should Orangemen be part of the mummery of transubstantiation? The mass is made up of two parts and Rome has declared both form one single act of worship and all those present partake of it.
[u]CONSTITUTION ON THE SACRED LITURGY SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON DECEMBER 4, 1963.[/u]
C) Norms based upon the didactic and pastoral nature of the Liturgy
33. Moreover, the prayers addressed to God by the priest who presides over the assembly in the person of Christ are said in the name of the entire holy people and of [b]all present[/b]. And the visible signs used by the liturgy to signify invisible divine things have been chosen by Christ or the Church.
[u]CHAPTER II
THE MOST SACRED MYSTERY OF THE EUCHARIST[/u]
56. The two parts which, in a certain sense, go to make up the Mass, namely, the liturgy of the word and the eucharistic liturgy, are so closely connected with each other [b]that they form but one single act of worship.[/b]
UMH
You refuse to believe in certain aspects like ‘the mummery of transubstantiation’ as you quite rightly call it.
But why not refuse to believe in the whole lot of it?
because I’m not an atheist
“Hi all,
Yes, Catholics did fight against fascism in world war II…and the Nazi’s threw alot of priest and nuns into concentration camps. That said…personally I think the orange order should be labled a hate group by the EU just as Nazi’s are.
Posted by Kathy C on Aug 16, 2008 @ 03:44 AM”
You are 90% correct about— (the Nazi’s threw alot of priest and nuns into concentration camps.)
Why not read the account of priests and nuns running concentration camps.)by Avro manhatten.
“Why not read the account of priests and nuns running concentration camps.)by Avro manhatten.”
Because Avro Manhatten was a screaming fucking madman?
If the letter writer is a member of a southern lodge, and I seriously doubt it – then the matter should be raised with the leadership rather than the public domain.
The southern lodges have the right to enforce/relax whatever rules it sees fit on its members provided it is consistent with Irish law and Bunreacht na hÉireann.
Thank you
Hubert Butler: THE ARTUKOVITCH FILE (1970)
I asked him if Artukovitch (Anitch) had ever been to visit him. “No, he had no visitors at all, though once or twice he went to Dublin. He brooded the whole time. He said the only hope for us was to have a third world war immediately. He thought us a very weak lot. There was a milk strike in Galway at the time and he could not understand why we did not settle it straight away by shooting the milkmen. And we should invade the six counties and settle that matter, too, immediately.”
Slugger needs to get its house in order, the large number of bigoted posts within this topic alone is a disgrace with no moderating done at all.
In addition to this there is still NO thread about the 5 Orange Halls that were attacked recently.
Why should Orangemen be part of the mummery of transubstantiation? The mass is made up of two parts and Rome has declared both form one single act of worship and all those present partake of it.
Posted by Ulsters my homeland on Aug 16, 2008 @ 12:20 PM
—–
No one suggests that Orangemen participate only that there should be no penalty for attenting.
I think there is a case to be made that the relevants parts in the Qualifications of an Orangeman have little significance for quite a few OO members. As noted in some earlier comments, very many OO members ignore those aspects of the Qualifications. As for those who adhere to them, I have a feeling they would avoid RC acts of worship anyway, irrespective of OO membership.
This comes back to what Belfast-born Anglican theologian Alister McGrath calls “the spectrum of Protestant possibilities”. Both in historical and contemporary terms, many in the Protestant traditions have understood the theological differences between their traditions and RCism as part of a debate within the Christian tradition – and a debate that should be undertaken with charity.
There is, of course, another part of the Protestant spectrum which is – how shall I put it? – much less charitable in its assessment of RCism.
Surely there is a case that if the OO is to have a positive, representative relationship with the mainstream Protestant tradition(s), it should also recognise the diversity of Protestant relationships with and approaches to the RC tradition. At present the Qualifications enshrine only one such approach.
Comparing the prohibition on attending RC acts of worship with the provision in the canon law of the Catholic Church prohibiting ‘non-Catholics’ from receiving the eucharist – I am not sure it equates. There is a substantial difference between attending an act of worship and receiving the Sacrament.
Where there is a comparison, however, is in the fact that both provisions are widely disregarded. As an Anglican who has attended a few RC eucharists on the continent, it is quite clear that the bar on receiving communion is very widely ignored.
I am amazed there is an oo lodge in dublin the capital of the papal conspiracy in prods eyes. Aside from that there saying the south has changed
coming from religious fundamentalists i wonder is that a complement they remind me of the reform assocaition and the catholic church with there longing for the good old days. If a united ireland leads to more catholic fascists and Prod fascists i say fuck it and lets kill christianity ireland should become god free.
Outsider
pehaps the reason no one has mentioned the vandalism to 5 orange halls is that no one really gives a fuck.
Outsider
pehaps the reason no one has mentioned the vandalism to 5 orange halls is that no one really gives a fuck.
[i]“There is a substantial difference between attending an act of worship and receiving the Sacrament.”[/i]
That may well be the general perception, a false perception at that. The Roman Catholic Act of Worship, is a spoken liturgy (Mass), it’s basically the same as the physical Eucharistic liturgy, but in a different form. If anyone thinks you can attend the spoken mass, while abstaining from the physical Eucharist and not be considered to be a partaker of transubstantiation, they’re a fool.
‘Why should Orangemen be part of the mummery of transubstantiation?’
“[i]No one suggests that Orangemen participate only that there should be no penalty for attenting.”[/i]
McKelvey, the Orange Order have a right to look after the spiritual welfare of their members, they are a religious organisation for goodness sake. Just as any Christian organisation would prevent it’s members from participating in Satanic practices, the Orange Order prevents it’s members from being partakers of the RC Eucharist, a practice in which the whole Reformed Christian world regards as an act of blasphemy against Christ.
The OO are quite right to look after the spiritual welfare of their members, it’s their duty.
Well we have just seen an illustration of one part of the Protestant spectrum with regards to RCism. “Satanic practices”. And if anyone disagree, well they are just “a fool”. Need more be said?
The arrogant assumption that “the whole Reformed Christian world” regards the the eucharist as understood by RCism to be “an act of blasphemy” fairly well sums up the problem. Yes, some in the Reformed world think like this. Others of us who have been shaped by the Reformation heritage do not.
The World Alliance of Reformed Churches (Presbyterian), the Anglican Communion and the Lutheran World Federation have all been in dialogue for decades with RCism on the eucharist. While Anglicans and Lutherans have reached high levels of agreement with RCism on key aspects of the eucharist, RCism Presbyterianism globally remain some distance from theological consensus.
It is interesting, however, that the Reformed-Catholic dialogue in the US emphasised the need for “mutual respect”.
Not a bad piece of advice.
posted by Kathy C
Hi all—;
Dave, since my German grandmother’s cousin was a German Catholic priestwho was sent to a concentration camp and killed I find your statement a guise to bring the attention away from the orange order…the order that bans it’s members from attending a Catholic Mass. Like I stated earlier…the orange order is akin to the nazi’s and the KKK and they should be labeled as they are…hate group
“[i]Well we have just seen an illustration of one part of the Protestant spectrum with regards to RCism. “Satanic practices”. And if anyone disagree, well they are just “a fool”. Need more be said?”[/i]
I never said anything about the RC church using satanic practices. Get your facts right.
“[i]The arrogant assumption that “the whole Reformed Christian world” regards the the eucharist as understood by RCism to be “an act of blasphemy” fairly well sums up the problem. Yes, some in the Reformed world think like this. Others of us who have been shaped by the Reformation heritage do not. “[/i]
Show me one reformed church which also believes in transubstantiation?
“[i]The World Alliance of Reformed Churches (Presbyterian), the Anglican Communion and the Lutheran World Federation have all been in dialogue for decades with RCism on the eucharist. While Anglicans and Lutherans have reached high levels of agreement with RCism on key aspects of the eucharist, RCism Presbyterianism globally remain some distance from theological consensus.”[/i]
waffle
“[i]the order that bans it’s members from attending a Catholic Mass. Like I stated earlier…the orange order is akin to the nazi’s and the KKK and they should be labeled as they are…hate group”[/i]
Wind yer neck in. You haven’t the slightest idea what yer on about.
If anyone is to remove or change anything, it should be Rome.
“Dave, since my German grandmother’s cousin was a German Catholic priest who was sent to a concentration camp and killed…” – Kathy
Different Dave. Citing Avro Manhattan as an authority on the Holocaust marks one out as a raving loon in much the same manner as citing David Irving.
Kathy.
I take it your German grandmother’s cousin isn’t in this photograph?
http://www.michaelbradford.com/NaziPriestsSaluteHitler.jpg
TAFKABO,
considering it was in the Protestant German areas that the Nazis got the most support and nearly 20% of Protestant pastors joined Hitler’s German Christian movement when he came to power, I find it strange you get so hung up on a photograph.
Yep George I’ve seen the arguments that spell out Catholic opposition to the Nazi’s. Doesn’t make that photo any less of a disgrace though.
Ulster’s my homeland – if you were not comparing RC acts of worship with “satanic practices” why mention “satanic practices”? Are you suggesting RC mass and “satanic practices” are equivalent?
Of course no reformed church believes in transubstantiation. (Although the Lutheran belief in consubstantiation comes very, very close.) So what relevance does that have for this debate? The Reformed traditions differ widely themselves on the doctrine of the eucharist, alongside a wide range of other issues. It does not result in a prohibition on attending acts of worship.
The ecumenical dialogue between the various Reformation traditions and RCism demonstrates how agreement can be explored and differences expressed with charity.
“posted by Kathy C
Hi all—;
Dave, since my German grandmother’s cousin was a German Catholic priestwho was sent to a concentration camp and killed I find your statement a guise to bring the attention away from the orange order…the order that bans it’s members from attending a Catholic Mass. Like I stated earlier…the orange order is akin to the nazi’s and the KKK and they should be labeled as they are…hate group
Posted by Kathy_C on Aug 16, 2008 @ 10:29 PM”
Hi KC
Thanks for the reply. nonetheless have a good read of Avro Manhattan.
In most cases the truth really hurts. Please do try to see beyound your own bigoted remarks.
Catholic canon law couldn’t be plainer – their communion is for their adherents only: http://www.catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp
Please do stop abusing the good offices of our Catholic brothers and sisters by injuring their sincerely held beliefs. Which, to repeat, very firmly include their wish that you, a non-Catholic, should *not* falsely take [sic] their communion. If you’re that keen to have it, the answer lies in your own hands.
[text removed - keep to the ball Rooster - you're doing well enough without getting personal - mods]
‘… the Orange Order have a right to look after the spiritual welfare of their members, they are a religious organisation for goodness sake.’
So whats the story with the militaristic marches with colonial militia bands (“nothing to do with OO”) and political speeches?
‘nonetheless have a good read of Avro Manhattan.’
I expect you’ll be recommending Mein Kampf or David Duke for a fair critique of Judaism next.