Dunclug bonfire goes ahead
The Dunclug anti-internment bonfire went ahead. Union and Ulster flags were burned as well as a SF recruitment poster. Members of the 250 crowd who were interviewed attacked Sinn Fein and the conditions in the area. As regard the house attack that followed the previous removal of bonfire material:
A well-respected Protestant community activist was wrongly implicated in the bonfire’s removal. His home was attacked and he has since left Dunclug.
UPDATE: Trouble flared at another bonfire in Coleraine with one man seriously injured (Hat tip mm).
Rabelais – you’re wasting your time. Your post contained a number of words greater than three syllables in length – you are accordingly by dunreaveymore’s logic (a) a snob, (b) some sort of fascist.
Bemused.
This is bad news indeed. Whether a snob, a fascist or both, I’d hate to be thought of as keeping any of that sort of company. Mrs Rabelais wouldn’t have me back in the house.
dunreavey
someone else picked up on your point where you said, “Obviously you believe that there are a lot of people in Ireland who deserve no place in society and certainly have no right to decide for themselves on local issues ( at least not untill they stop being idiots).’
This is really ironic given that the VAST majority of people on the estate didn’t want the bonfire and the VAST majority of people decided that there ought not to be one and worked hard to bring about an alternative i.e a week long community event for all to partake in and enjoy. I think that’s called local people ‘deciding for themselves on local issues”. And look what happened – the wan%ers you are defending so fervently (for some god-only-knows reason) made sure that the voice and will of the vast majority of the locals was stamped on, trashed, and set on fire, quite literally. And no community event. What about my rights and those of all the other residents on the estate? Why don’t you defend those, or do you really think it’s tolerable that a handful of idiot scumbags can dictate and impose their will on the whole estate regardless of the disastrous consequences? You can’t be serious.
OK D, we’ll go through this step by step.
“References to ‘idiots’ and so on beg the question as to whether there is an elitist element here”
Subjective preposition refers to the above question, i.e. you have subjectively proposed the question, WHY does it beg the question about a so called elitist element, [particularly as I contextualised my idiots term in the three questions I asked at 8.26, all of which you have chosen to ignore].
“If that means, from your point of view, that my opinion on anything is of no value, my education not reaching your glorious heights. Does that make me an idiot”?
It doesn’t mean that, your opinion is as valid as mine, [providing you can back it up with logical argument], you don’t know the heights of my education, and not knowing what a subjective preposition is doesn’t make you an idiot.
Clear enough D?
“Obviously you believe that there are a lot of people in Ireland who deserve no place in society and certainly have no right to decide for themselves on local issues”
Obviously eh? nice to see that you’ve taken my advice from a previous post about arrogantly and condescendingly imparting my “obvious” beliefs. I believe no such thing; I believe that a minority thuggish element in Dunclug wanted a bonfire against the wishes of the majority of residents.
“Again I know nothing about Dunclug or its residents but still believe that your descriptions of those people reflect poorly on your politics. There used to be a schoolboy phrase which seems to me to sum you up perfectly in that you appear to be “intoxicated by the exuberance of your own verbosity.” In other words your fine phrases about equality don’t mean much when you continue to treat some people as outside the pale. The old stuff about “cherishing ALL the children of the nation equally” doesn’t apply to these “thuggish idiots” Paul, heh?
Firstly D I didn’t describe the residents of Dunclug I described a small thuggish element as idiots, please explain how this reflects poorly on my politics? Regarding my supposed treatment of some people who, as you say, are “outside the pale”. In any society when people transgress beyond the norms of society can be considered to be “outside the pale”. Let me paraphrase my previous questions and maybe this time I’ll get an answer:
Would you consider someone assaulting three people because they held different views from him as “beyond the pale”?
Would you consider a crowd driving a respected community worker from his home as “beyond the pale”?
Would you consider the spokesperson for the self styled Dunclug Young Republicans allegedly assaulting a sixteen year old girl and breaking her cheekbone as “beyond the pale”?
On a similar note, do you think that criminals such as car thieves, burglars, drug pushers, rapists etc, [not suggesting that these people are involved in such activities just using an example], have the same rights as citizens that contribute positively to society?
Does “the old stuff about cherishing ALL the children of the nation equally” also extend to touts RUC/PSNI, UDR/RIR, loyalists who were also born on the island of Ireland?
“By the way, if it’s thuggish idiots you want then take a look at the thuggish idiots of the IRA who murdered Paul Quinn, or Robert McCartney. Now there’s a fine pair of gangs for you to get your teeth into”!
Ahhh, the ubiquitous Dunreavynomore dig at the PRM, I was wondering where you’d get that in and I now suspect that you’re going to attempt to divert the thread from a bunch of thugs who terrorise a community because of a bonfire to a bunch of thugs who murdered two people.
Look D, the people who murdered these two unfortunates, IRA volunteers or not, should be made to feel the full rigours of the law. Is that clear enough for you?
“You’re 40 years of age Paul, hair maybe starting to turn grey and still no sign of the sense. Wow”
Disappointing that you feel you’ve had to resort to personal abuse in the course of the discussion D however, your remark about me not having sense is at least a blatant example of the elitism that you speak of in comparison to your earlier more latent “maybe I should put the books down”
bona fide
You are of course right. But because the will of the majority of the residents happens to match the will of Sinn Fein, then these characters see that as necessarily wrong. I say this with a little bit of irony, and I am not a SF fan, but even they can’t be wrong all the time.
And in addition, I do see the inconsistency in SF being on for the bonfire one year and against it the next, but this is a good thing. It is a sign they are becoming responsible. Better late than never. If only the persons connected to the Eleventh Night bonfires could also do it, then I would be extra pleased. If even for the sake of the atmosphere.
Gareth, I’m not so sure. I think their main motivation is that they see the bonfire as a good excuse to have a drug/drink fuelled piss up with the prospect of being able to start a bit of a riot and terrorise as many people as they think they can get away with (and certainly feck all to do with commemorating internment). It’s just an added bonus that SF have come out against it as it obviously presents this bunch of neanderthals the opportunity to vent their grievances about SF that bit more.
As for the will of the majority of residents – quite frankly, I think they just don’t give a $hite what it is, full stop, regardless if it happened to be the same as SFs will or not. In fact, there’s no, ‘I think’ about it – they clearly don’t. It’s just not something they even consider. And I mean, given that they are so anti-SF, are we really to believe that if SF had been in support of the bonfire then this crew wouldn’t have been so keen on the idea? I doubt it somehow.
As the old bonfire isn’t exactly my thing, I’m not sure exactly about the details of SF’s involvement in the past – that’s not to say, there weren’t SF members present – but, in what capacity, is the key question. Anyway, you are right, wouldn’t it be very welcome if elected representatives from the P/U/L community took up a similar stance in their communities with regard to 11th night bonfires. Save us all a lot of grief, not to mention, money.
bona fide
I should have made myself clearer. I really meant the majority of apologists on here. But your analysis is correct in any case.
G – i see…get you now. cheers.
Upstanding republican spokesman Chris Smiley appeared before the beak today accused of GBH on a 16 year old girl.
http://www.ballymenatimes.com/news/Man-in-court-on-Dunclug.4382771.jp
d@ve,
The news report, linked to above, stated…
In 2006, Catholic teenager Michael McIlveen was beaten to death by loyalists in Ballymena. “On his anniversary three months ago, I was set upon by four carloads of loyalists as I walked home,” says O’Neill. “‘Get the Fenian bastard!’ they yelled. I was beaten with baseball bats and stabbed in the head.”
Maggie, a middle-aged Dunclug resident, says: “Loyalist bands play the Sash near where Michael McIlveen was murdered, yet we’re not allowed a bonfire?”
Has Michael McIlveens [Mickey-Bo] death had a continuing influence on the people of Dunclug/Dunvale/Fisherwick? Anyone from those areas?
Posted by d@\/e on Aug 11, 2008 @ 12:53 PM
It certainly has had a lasting impact on the mindset of many young people in the north of ballymena. From the previous thread concerning the bonfire im sure many will remember my opposition to it. I do know Paul O’Neill and remember the incident he is referring to. It was quite a nasty stab wound and happened very close to Michael’s anniversary. I don’t think it is only young nationalists that remember it though as his name was put on top of the 11th bonfire in Ahoghill last year. It certainly has had a lasting impact in Ballymena but I would think this is because ballymena was not caught in the troubles to the extent other areas are. I am 23 and all I mind of it was camerons and maybe wyse byse being bombed. Athough I know many were good friends of michael I imagine among some it is more of a rallying cry as to how discriminated against they feel.
It really is a build up of smaller things but I know many nationalists would feel like second class citizens at this time of the year. These thoughts have been echoed by our most famous son in Liam Nesson. A reason for him not recieving the freedom of the borough. I have grown up accepting that unless I am at home, mass or in the pub it would be better to not make it too obvious that I am catholic. Even at school there were several attacks on fellow pupils for wearing their school uniform if they dared to walk up through the town later.
Qubol,
Hi Peter
As you mentioned in your last post about SF members from Kerry or whatever being previously involved I wouldn’t deny it. But as you seem to know the people we’re talking about here without naming names I think if we’re being honest these guys were complete morons who seemed to be doing there own thing in the estate. If anything the mistake was to not know what these party card waving idiots were up to. So I think it would be only fair to comment that since SF have rid themselves of these idiots, brought in some new faces, have more idea of what’s going on they are now moving against these thugs and their loyalist aping antics.
I think you may be referring to my posts on a previous thread as I was arguing with you regarding this. I did not say the sinn fein man was from Kerry. He is a well known Ballymena man but was working with Martin Ferris TD. I also spotted him with colleagues in Sinn fein at the Hunger striker rally at casement park. I refuse to believe the leadership knew nothing of this man when he was escorting a supposed member of the army council about. I don’t think he is a shinner any more but the party knew exactly what he was doing back then. You can not absolve sinn fein of the blame for this current situation. They should not have started the bonfire to begin with.
pfhl,thanks for replying to me. I’ve a few more questions; If young catholic people in Ballymena feel like second class citizens what do you think they can do to change this? Do you see the local community representatives and politicians doing anything? Is there a danger of young catholic people in Ballymena resorting to violence, or joining dissident republican groups?
I’ve even more questions about housing issues, drugs etc but’ll give them a miss this time.
Hmmm… when did ‘the will of the majority’ begin to determine the rights of the minority? If a minority of residents want a bonfire, and it does no harm to other residents, then what legitimate basis do others have to interfere? Sweet feck all.
Anyway, in a few more years, all these bonfires will be assessed by the EU for carbon emissions, and they’ll either be banned or require a licence wherein a fee is calculated in accordance with an appropriate carbon tax. When the average bonfire costs £600 to stage, they’ll soon vanish as a common practice.
Dave, you clearly don’t live in the estate otherwise you wouldn’t be spouting this $hite. Does no harm to the other residents indeed? OK, let’s see – what about the fear, intimidation, the violence, the vandalism, the feckin mess, jaysus, the list could go on and on and on….. The question should surely be, what legitimate basis does the minority have to hold the bloody bonfire. Ever heard of the word democracy?… look it up.
“Ever heard of the word democracy?… look it up.”
I don’t need to acquaint myself with its meaning. You, however, labour under the illusion that it means that it means that the majority instruct the minority when to fart and the proper manner to chew gum. It doesn’t. It means you vote for politicians when an election is called. It doesn’t mean that tell your neighbours how to live their lives because you form some committee for that very purpose when it is properly none of your bloody business what they do as long as they don’t break any laws. And even then it’s still none of your business beyond exercising your civic duty to report the alleged transgression to the relevant authority.
Dave,
You’re sounding a bit like a [edited by moderator - play the ball]
Just so you’re aware.
[edited by moderator - play the ball] You’re definition of democracy is incorrect, and if you think lighting a bonfire is not against the law then you’re mistaken. Where was the fire lit? Did it damage public property, for example a green or an area of tarmac? From a google on the legality of bonfires it says this about lighting a bonfire on your own property:
under the Environmental Protection Act (EPA) 1990, a statutory nuisance includes “smoke, fumes or gases emitted from premises so as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance”.
Dave, as has been said – [edited by moderator - play the ball]. You also hold a very narrow view of what democratic means. But, as you’re so keen to confine it to elected representatives in government – what do you call a SF MLA supporting the wishes of the majority of the people in the estate who expressed their wish not to have a bonfire through the members of the residents committee and elected chairperson? I’ve no doubt you have no care for SF but the fact is, as you are only too aware, that they have been elected by a large proportion of people here to be represented by them. And I consider that that is exactly what happened on this occasion. I don’t recall any elected representatives calling, on behalf of a few w4nkers, for the bonfire to go ahead.
pfhl,thanks for replying to me. I’ve a few more questions; If young catholic people in Ballymena feel like second class citizens what do you think they can do to change this? Do you see the local community representatives and politicians doing anything? Is there a danger of young catholic people in Ballymena resorting to violence, or joining dissident republican groups?
I’ve even more questions about housing issues, drugs etc but’ll give them a miss this time.
Posted by d@\/e on Aug 13, 2008 @ 09:20 PM
I would say it is a very real possibility that they will join dissident groups but i suspect MI5 is behind some of those attracting people. Around the group of friends that arranged this bonfire there has been too many cases droped against them. I realise this makes me sound paranoid but there have been a few instances that cases have been dropped suddenly and I suspect agents involved.
Was anyone ever prosecuted for the murder of Michael McIlveen?
Look as a Ballymena man i tell yous all whats going on here as a Republican that does not agree with the leadership but who also dosnt support the likes of smiley (whom i wouldnt trust with my life).Afew years ago mc shane was voted onto the Dunclug ass. and has been doing well for everyone,standing up for us against loyalist parades and what not and that was before he became a sinn fein rep for his home town in Ballycastle,when he was elected to Ballycastle he came to our meeting and said if we wanted to replace him it be no problem and everyone voted for him to stay on,dont forget he travels twenty five mile to get here and home again for no charge at all,he also along with sinn fein was on for the bonfire as was the resisdents and they told the ruc/psni to stay out of the area the night of for the sake of peace and smiley and his gang of misfits burnt a sinn fein womans car from dunloy and attacked local houses of people that were anti drug and that is the reason this year that the majority of the people decided they didnt want it.I know smiley as well and before he came here from Cloughmills he run around with a rangers top because his brother was in the udr then he moves here and cliams to speak for true republicans and to “CELEBRATE” internment then breaks a wee girl of sixteens jaw and then when he gets locked up i was glad to hear the Tyrone men gave him a hammering,maybe knock a bit of sensce into him.
anyway i not the greatest speller but im telling yous all that is the way it is.
pfhl the MI5 thing wouldn’t surprise me.
earnan A 15-year-old teenager was charged with his murder, while a 16-year-old teenager was charged with causing affray. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4774703.stm