A different form of Unionism that reaches places the DUP can never reach…
The Watchman, and occasional contributor of longer think pieces gives his assessment of the announcement during the week of the proposed new alignment between the Ulster Unionists, and David Cameron’s new liberal ToriesBy The Watchman
“What I want us to explore with the Ulster Unionists is not really some kind of ‘lets have some joint candidates or work together’ I want to be more ambitious than that.”
“I would like to see us establish a new political force in Northern Ireland that is both Conservative and Unionist, that can say to people, look, get beyond the old politics of constitution or orange or green.”
Those comments from David Cameron are remarkable, and unthinkable from almost any recent Tory leader. They are worth tracking down in full on Nuzhound. Previous Tory pronouncements about the Union were analogous to a husband assuring his wife of a lasting but loveless marriage. In seeking out the UUP, Cameron arrives with the political equivalent of chocolates, flowers and scented candles.
He seems confident enough that the next election is in the bag to turn his attention to the regional problems liable to affect a party with overwhelmingly English Parliamentary seats. The links with the UUP is one sign. There is also speculation of secret Tory-SNP talks that would give the Scottish Government greater autonomy in return for constitutional stability.
Even after Edward Heath stabbed the Ulster Unionists in the back, many within the party longed for a rapprochement with the Tories. Simon Heffer’s biography of the Great Enoch relates the anger felt in Powell’s South Down constituency party in the mid-1970s at their Member’s Labour sympathies. Two leading Tory backbenchers were even said to have turned up to constituency officers to agitate secretly against Powell.
As the years went on, many Ulster Unionists felt, rightly, that support for them was more likely to be found in the Conservative Party than anywhere else and that some form of renewed alliance would balance the pan-nationalist axis. They were often embarrassed by Paisleyism and craved the respectability that association with the Tories might give them.
The details of the new relationship between the Conservatives and the Ulster Unionists have still to be worked out. The UUP membership was certainly taken by surprise and may be unsettled by some of what their new suitor would like to see. The comments of Cameron quoted above go far beyond a simple renewal of pre-1974 links. It seems unlikely that the Ulster Unionist Council would vote to subsume itself into the Tory Party, the political equivalent of Stewarts becoming Tesco.
The small numbers of Tory activists already in Northern Ireland also seem hesitant. They see a deal as entailing the absorption of the UUP into the Tory Party as it presently stands. They may be disappointed. Perhaps the likeliest outcome of the talks is for a British version of the partnership on the German centre-right between the Christian Democratic Union and the Christian Social Union of Bavaria.
David Cameron’s wooing may be a lifeline for the UUP. Despite its morale-boosting council win in Dromore, the party has deep problems. It has not yet worked out a role for itself as the minor unionist party. In seeking new support, it cannot decide whether to go to the Garden Centre or to the Orange Hall.
Even a successful link-up with the Tories would not deliver votes to the UUP by the general election. It might shore up Lady Sylvia in North Down. If David Burnside fancies a return to Westminster, it could help him in South Antrim, where the ineffectual Willie McCrea will lose crucial votes to the TUV. Perhaps, and this is a long shot, the UUP could cut a deal with the DUP that might deliver it either South Belfast or Fermanagh South Tyrone.
But regardless of immediate paybacks, a coalition with the Tories would allow the UUP, under whatever title, to carve out a role for itself as a distinctively unionist party, in contrast to the latent Ulster nationalism of the DUP. Handled correctly, this could be the basis of a different form of unionism that reaches places that the DUP can never reach.
Curious times indeed.
I happen to think you’re right on the Westminster seats, but it’s strange that you rule out this giving benefits before the next general election, and then suggest it could provide two gains! I think FST and SB are much more problematic than some people seem to think, but South Antrim is winnable on the terms you outline, perhaps even Upper Bann with the right candidate.
I also agree that this is a marked change in Tory thinking about Northern Ireland. A I’ve already said, it’s a marked change from Cameron’s early leadership.
From monolithic Unionist Tory whip beholden provincial nonentities discarded as an embarrassing historical anachronism to the apple of David Cameron’s eye?
As ulterior motives go I’m sniffing SNP.
Interesting times indeed.
Watchman,
As ever a most interesting article.
I am afraid my suspicions in all this is that Cameron is saying what he thinks is popular at the moment and as you say preparing the ground for trying to shore up a UK with an English elected Tory government. I suspect, however, that this man (Cameron) would not merely sell but eat his granny for political power. I would be extremely mistrustful of what he says. Remember how safely unionist Thatcher was at times and then she signed the Anglo Irish Agreement.
Cameron may gain from all this but I suspect a further gain is for Empey. This will become his “big idea” at the next Unionist Party conference and UUC meetings. Without something like this I do think his days would have been numbered. This will make him look like an important and significant political figure and keep the men in grey suits away for a little longer. If, however, (and it is still a significant if) but if this move were to gain some votes from the garden centre Prods and some unionist minded Roman Catholics I would see it as a very positive step. I will not be holding my breath though.
You realise this is a linkup with a Cameron conservative party right? Cameron has worked hard to try to detoxify the Conservative brand and present a more modern face. I have my doubts about the reality of some UUP figures being able to personify this effectively.
Watchman says
“The comments of Cameron quoted above go far beyond a simple renewal of pre-1974 links. [...] Perhaps the likeliest outcome of the talks is for a British version of the partnership on the German centre-right between the Christian Democratic Union and the Christian Social Union of Bavaria. ”
What is the exact difference between the old UUP-Tory links and the CDU-CSU link? The author presumes a grasp of detail that I lack!
I too am interested in the fact that Cameron has it seems been thinking a lot about the United Kingdom and has been in talks with the SNP to reach a deal on giving more fiscal powers to the Scottish Parliament. Those powers will be available to NI along the line and a proper budget for the Scottish and NI authorities may be more rational and sensible than the Barnet Formula and give us more fexibility – a more fiscally flexible devolved UK.
There are dangers for the UUP if the Tories become very unpopular at national level. However, that is where the autonomy of the local party comes in. Labour have this big problem in Scootland where they are unpopular locally because of the national government. Scottish Labour has problems with autonomy. Exhibit A: Wendy Alexander and her disagreement with Gordon Brown. This is a problem that Cameron is well aware of (he raised it enough at PMQs!). I suspect he will want to resolve it by allowing local parties to determine local policies to a greater extent.
well this news puts an end to Robinson’s dreams of one Unionist Party.
Methinks Lord Trimble is to be found somewhere lurking behind this cosy-up.
UUP have always thought DUP to be somewhat uncouth.
What are the odds of Jeffrey Donaldson switching back
What the UUP really need to do is promote the next generation. There are people within the party like Kenny Donaldson, Peter Bowles (back now, wh?), and since they really really need more women, Paula Bradshaw, all of whom seem articulate and presentable. There is very little on the benches at Stormont to get excited about for the future.
Also speaking as a member of the nonpoliitical middle class, I always thought of politics as a bit of an unrespectable thing to be involved in, somehow. Also a bit too risky for too little reward. Maybe the Conservative brand will ancourage more people to take a different view of politics and get involved. That would be welcome. There are so few new faces. And the type of people in political life is still very uninspiring for many would be voters.
percy,
I agree entirely. This seems to be Empey’s retort to the one unionist party idea of Robinson. A pretty effective retort I suspect and one which will keep him (Empey) as UUP leader for a while yet. Whether or not it will help the UUP regain top spot I doubt.
Turgon
Don’t you think that the DUP is likely to become unpopular after about two parliaments or so simply because it is the in-government party and will start to be unable to avoid the blame for things? The UUP is realistically the obvious alternative for unionist voters.
The UUP are living in some sort of dreamland if they think that being in some sort of coalition with the Conservative party will revive their flagging party.
The UUP will always get most of the ‘fur coat brigade’ section of the electorate, but the majority of blue and white collar workers, and loyal order members have now switched to the DUP (or the TUV), and joining with the Conservatives is highly unlikely to entice very many back to the UUP fold. In fact, it will reinforce the perception of the UUP being a party only for a certain type of people.
The UUP needs new leadership, not sham alliances with people who have no real interest in NI. Apparently ‘Reg Empey has never topped the poll in any election to any level of Government’. For most Unionists he is synonymous with the negotiations which resulted is so many unnecessary concessions being made to Republicans.
The UUP, like the SDLP, took their voters for granted, and as a result lost out to the hardworking and dedicated DUP and SF. They have a lot of hard work, on the ground, to do if they ever hope to become a strong political force again in NI.
slug,
Maybe: that is an interesting way of looking at it. I just doubt that our system will show up such things with an executive of all the parties. I am unsure if the UUP (or SDLP for that matter) can remain distant enough from the decisions to benefit from voters tiring of the bigger parties. I also suspect that “standing up for the union” / the nationalist opposite will remain a significant concern and unless the UUP can cross the DUP’s T and become more hard line on the union the DUP will always be seen as the stronger party on the constitutional question.
If there was a voluntary coalition I suspect your idea of voters tiring of the DUP and moving to the UUP would be a very viable possibility. Then again of course since I am all for voluntary coalitions I would say that.
Any links with the Conservative party come at least three years too late: Reg Empey has marched the party straight into unelectable obscurity.
Now it’s only a choice of how the UUP wants to die: do they want to be eaten by the Conservatives and keep their jobs, or crushed completely under foot by the more popular evangelical fundamentalists of British unionism.
Whereas Ian Paisley or Peter Robinson have stood firm and will never sit down in government with terrorists? The DUP are still pulling in the votes considering they’re in coalition government with the leaders of the IRA. If most Unionists hold a grudge against Empey simply for his party’s negotiations — negotiations we have all reaped the benefits of — then they are willfully blinding themselves to political reality.
I at least agree with your final paragraph: the UUP have failed because they are arrogant and elitist and believed the unionist vote was theirs by right, not by effort.
Percy,
Finally, you may have actually hit pay dirt with at least one of your suggestions. It’s hard to over estimate the warm fuzzy feeling this has created in a surprisingly wide group of people.
In short: DSD and Watchman took opposite sides over the Belfast Agreement in 98 and ever after. I suspect that runs a lot more widely than is immediately apparent.
Something very curious indeed has happened.
“Any links with the Conservative party come at least three years too late: Reg Empey has marched the party straight into unelectable obscurity.”
That’ll be like the way the Conservatives were deemed unelectable ever again by many commentators after their Major defeat….?
“I would like to see us establish a new political force in Northern Ireland that is both Conservative and Unionist, that can say to people, look, get beyond the old politics of constitution or orange or green.”
Well, that would appear to rule a Westminster comeback for David Burnside.
It’s a cheap substitute for the true rewards gained from working and winning it out in a local democracy by gaining or perhaps changing local views in support of a particular party/policy/idea.
Remember NI from its inception had a parliament, unfortunately it was a both dangerous and very inward looking one; but can leadership via a London proxy work here without that carving out and cultivating of minds locally by work on the ground. If it is to be Cameron, he is a poor replacement for Blair, not even a Blair MkII, perhaps MkIII.
So I agree with DSD on this one, it appears Empey has applied his decision with Cameron in the media without leading on it with those in his party, a bad trademark of Trimble, suggesting he and Cameron have opted for a Made in China assembly of a somewhat unoriginal political product. Something quite cheap and superficial about it, yet it seems purchasable and perhaps worth taking off the shelf…
If they can somehow get the concept to work and put conservative manners, with a small C on the UUP with probably a hint of a New Labour too, then v good.
If it is proxy-led how do they intend to calibrate the work on the ground here in relation to solutions to largely sectarian regional problems and a more advanced national form of thought in London. Anyway whatever happened to ‘Ulster – A Nation’?
Major lasted another month as leader and 11 years later the Conservatives are still not in power. If the UUP want to sit it out for another eight years for their particular brand of politics-by-right to come back in fashion, good luck and all the best to them. The Union might even still be there at that point.
The Conservative Party, however, have spent their time unifying and forging a new centrist platform that is more palatable to the electorate. They at least had the sense to realise running further to the right of Thatcherite Labour Party would put them on the wrong part of the bell curve.
The Ulster Unionists have done nothing since their drubbing in 2005. They still don’t know when to stop sniping. They don’t know whether to run to the center, run to the right, run to militant loyalists, run for law and order, run to the Orange Order, run to the secular, run for coalition, run against the Agreement they made. They have no discernible direction or platform to run on. They are extinct.
David Cameron increasingly looks like the next British PM and the return of the Tories to power fills Sinn Fein with dread. The British Conservatives are traditionally a bigoted, racist, right wing, anti-Irish shower and the red danger signals are NOW flashing amongst Republican grass roots with longer memories. That’s why Adams & senior Shinners are desperate for the transfer of Policing Justice NOW before the Tories gain power again & BEFORE Gordon Brown becomes a total lame duck. On a recent visit to the North the Tory NI spokesman stated that the Tories would link transfer of Policing & Justice powers to IRA Army Council disbandment. We could see a long drawn out Decommissioning Process repeated and Unionism, particularly the DUP, would relish that. We are in dangerous waters again and hopefully it will be resolved but I won’t hold my breath. Remember what happened when the Tories prior to 1997 stalled the Peace Process because Major needed UUP votes.
It’s a bit like the kid who gets sent to a posh boarding school by his parents. They rarely come to see him, and the other kids notice this neglect, and being cruel little bastards (as all kids are), they taunt him about how unloved and unwanted he is. Then suddenly his parents appear and tell him that they missed him terribly, love him very much, and that he is to come home and live with them as one big happy family. He is to have his own pony, quad bike, and a 50″ plasma TV in his room, etc. Naturally, the lonely kid is delighted with this latest turn of events and can’t contain himself from sharing this boost to his faltering self-esteem with all and sundry, or as Yeats put it, “I have gone about the house, gone up and down as a man does who has published a new book or a young girl dressed out in her new gown.”
That’s rubbish. We have a monopoly on the union
Its just that attitude that will win you elections DUPE
Of course it may also allow the modernisers in the UUP to adopt a model Tory like constitution giving the OO no power.
‘joining with the Conservatives is highly unlikely to entice very many back to the UUP fold. In fact, it will reinforce the perception of the UUP being a party only for a certain type of people’
MMhh 47% of the public in GB according to some opinion polls.
6countyprod is a good tag – it obviously describes the limits of your mind
“We are in dangerous waters again and hopefully it will be resolved but I won’t hold my breath. Remember what happened when the Tories prior to 1997 stalled the Peace Process because Major needed UUP votes.”
Do you mean to say that certain people will return to type?
LURIG reckons the IRA will go back to war if policing powers are not devolved. That’s got to be up there with the greatest ironies in history.
I’m scratching my head over this. It looks increasingly like Cameron has the next election in the bag. Why then would he start making overtures to the UUP, who let’s face it are not a success-story?
Why would he want to embroil the Tories in the quagmire of Northern Irish politics just at the moment when a triumphant return to power looks immanent?
Is this an attempt to set out the Tories credentials on the Union? Wouldn’t he be better off then giving Scotland his undivided attention because in terms of the UK isn’t that the part that really matters?
I’m interested also that Cameron is in discussions with the SNP. The SNP would be fools at this stage to be seen as being too cosy with the Tories for two reasons. 1. They’ve only just shaken off their ‘tartan Tory’ tag: crucial in securing the support of constituencies like Glasgow East. And 2. The SNP are so close to achieving their objectives that cutting any deal with a Conservative government that feel short of independence would be such a massive lose of nerve on their part. I just can’t see that happening.
So, what is going on?
“It has not yet worked out a role for itself as the minor unionist party.”
I may be out on a limb here but wouldn’t they want to become the major unionist party? So that they can, you know, win power again?
Perhaps they could develop policies and test them on the electorate to see if they can get a chance to prove their policies would improve the lot of the people living in NI.
Isn’t that how it’s meant to work? This is a conundrum alright. I’m sure there’s a long quote from JS Mill, Gramsci or Ralph Milliband that will put me right tough, eh?
“I would like to see us establish a new political force in Northern Ireland that is both Conservative and Unionist, that can say to people, look, get beyond the old politics of constitution or orange or green.”
So the Conservatives link back up with the UUP, the establishment party of unionism for the first 50 years of Northern Ireland’s existence.
I just don’t see how this link-up gets past the “old politics” so while it may ruffle a few feathers in the unionist camp it won’t change anything when it comes to the greater battle between nationalists and unionists.
Perhaps the likeliest outcome of the talks is for a British version of the partnership on the German centre-right between the Christian Democratic Union and the Christian Social Union of Bavaria.
There is no comparison. The CSU have 46 members in the Bundestag and make up over 20% of the CDU/CSU faction of 223. They have had countless ministers in the federal government, the UUP have had zero in their previous 50-year-long link with the Tories.
Whatever the outcome of the talks, it won’t be an arrangement of equals like the CDU/CSU one.
6countyprod – “The UUP, like the SDLP, took their voters for granted, and as a result lost out to the hardworking and dedicated DUP ..”
If only the DUP were hard working it would be a start. Plenty of spin and no substance. Hopefully, the Conservative & Unionist Party will give them some competition as well as attracting a wider Pro-Union vote regardless of religion.
“LURIG reckons the IRA will go back to war if policing powers are not devolved. That’s got to be up there with the greatest ironies in history.”
No, it’s got to be the, to my mind, inane ramblings of someone off the interweb. History’s ironies will reveal themselves in the fullness of time, so let’s not get too excited because a poster on here talks shite. It happens far too often.
Lurig:
‘LURIG reckons the IRA will go back to war if policing powers are not devolved. That’s got to be up there with the greatest ironies in history.’
Comadre Stalin – LOL Got it in one!
Lurig – ain’t life a bitch when you cant threat people and govts?
Vote Tory and slap it into Sinn Fein!
Actually I think Lurig has a point. The last time took a lot more incitement to make the natives restless, this time the natives are already restless and ready to jump the reserve.
The days of croppie lay down have well and truly passed
If you can give any evidence let alone proof for this idiotic claim I’d be interested in seeing it.
Here, I’ll start a sentence: “The IRA is about to back to war and I offer the following demonstrable facts as evidence….”
No rush, I’m off to start targeting and recruiting for the rest of the afternoon.
“The IRA is about to back to war and I offer the following demonstrable facts as evidence….””
…due to the UUP’s new ‘Cillit Bang’ – ;reaches places that the DUP can never reach.’
‘Cillit Bang®
Before you give up, try Cillit Bang! Its revolutionary, powerful cleaning formula amazingly removes even the toughest stains and dirt right before your eyes …’
““The UUP, like the SDLP, took their voters for granted, and as a result lost out to the hardworking and dedicated DUP”
I’m befuddled here. Are you seriously suggesting the SDLP lost votes to the DUP because the latter were ‘hardworking’.
Or maybe you mean the Stoops lost out to the Shinners because the shinners, like their friends the DUP, are great champions of te people?
Either way you’re wrong though, the DUP did well because it said no to SF in government. It now loves having SF in their beds, and I’m not sure exactly what it stands for, other than working very very hard of course.
“Actually I think Lurig has a point. The last time took a lot more incitement to make the natives restless, this time the natives are already restless and ready to jump the reserve.”
What, has the cappuccino machine broken down? That’s enough to make any revolutionary mad.
and as a clarification I don’t expect to see the PIRA to take the field again.
Whether its a current organisation or one yet formed I wouldn’t even guess but if there is an attempt to return to the 70′s or 80′s political dispensation then all bets are off
I wonder if all the post troubles analysis will keep them from making the mistakes of PIRA
Conquistador,
I think the Page 1-10 post might help you sort out your confusion. Misquotes usually do create false impressions…
The UUP, like the SDLP, took their voters for granted, and as a result lost out to the hardworking and dedicated DUP and SF. They (UUP)have a lot of hard work, on the ground, to do if they ever hope to become a strong political force again in NI.
Rabelais ‘
‘Wouldn’t he be better off then giving Scotland his undivided attention because in terms of the UK isn’t that the part that really matters?’
Scotland is ‘lost’ for the Tories . They have 1 seat out of 59 or 55? . In Northern Ireland there are potentially 10 seats between UUP and DUP. The Tories have the DUP in the bag anyway so Mr Cameron to make assurance doubly sure in any ‘tight ‘ election just needs to rope in Trimble/Empey and Co . If he gets a large majority and doesn’t actually need their support what matter ?
It’s a win win for the Tories . For the Unionists it’s just business as usual – The size of any conservative majority will be directly correlated with either an upswing in temporary influence or the more usual back of the bus treatment .
That’s whats going on .Imo
As for SF -Tory Rule or no there’ll be no going back to the 70′s or 80′s . The vast majority of people across this island have made that point abundantly clear! For SF it would be political death.
I think the DUP supporters here are guilty of wishful thinking.
1. The UUP/Conservative dialogue has been ongoing for almost a year, not something thought about because they are ahead in the polls.
2. The new party will be a Northern Ireland Party just as the Scottish Conservatives are Scottish. However they will have to be full members of the Conservative Party and sign up to the main manifesto. They will of course have separate manifestos for Stormont/Councuil elections that will deal solely with Northern Ireland issues not the main issues that are decides at Westminster.
3. The candidates will be Northern Ireland People ex Northern Ireland Conservatives and UUP and members of any other parties that wish to join. The leadership and comittees will all however be ultimately responsible to the main party.
4. It will attact votes from across the spectrum including current SDLP, DUP and TUV voters, it may lose a few socialist members on the way but the is a small price to pay for the big prize.
5. Since it will be an all UK party the Union will be safer than ever before. Once it is in control at Stormont it will have a voice inside Downing Street for at least the next 10 years.
It is obvious who would be the Party of the Union and who would be the NI nationalists.
Good for the Union, NEVER stronger, the Conservatives are the party of the Union.
Good for everyone in Northern Ireland who believes in real postive politics take will make a difference to everyone’s lives.
Bad for the DUP and SF, their little dalliance is already falling apart and will be totally smashed.
Bad for all negative backward looking politicians who cannnot lift their noses out of the sectarian trough.
The Conservative Unionist Party is the future for NI, where is New Labour?
Steve
Good posts. You say:
“The last time [1969] took a lot more incitement to make the natives restless, this time the natives are already restless and ready to jump the reserve”
This brings us to the “2021 scenario”. The 2021 scenario is a secnarion in which the era of nationalist demographic increase is seen to come to an end short of the critical mass needed for a UI, and could lead to some thinking about war.
But it could also lead to far more nationalists in the six counties coming to think again about the idea of a fair repartition.
That is where the ideas and arguments of Greenflag are coming in. And they are catching on. Recently a respected nationalist columnist (Gerry Murray) came out in support of repartition in the Derry Journal.
Greenflag,
I can see what your saying. But it does seem then that Cameron is preparing for perhaps a narrower election victory than many predict.
If this is Cameron’s game then the UUP may be prepared to put up with what are the rather expedient attentions of the Tories just to be close to power or at least have its ear on matters concerning NI.
In some ways the whole thing illustrates to me the desperation and intellectual confusion at the heart of the UUP and unionism generally. To hitch itself to a party, which as Scotland breaks away will find itself increasingly the representive of English nationalism, strikes me as something which will eventually grate with grassroots unionists.
Scotland will go. The union is breaking up. The Tories in power will precipetate Scottish independence. How do the UUP think linking up with the Tories will do the cause of the union any good in the medium to long term?
As usual I think unionists are ignoring the elephant in their living room that is Scottish independence. Instead they content themselves with trying to rearrange the furniture – unionist re-alignment, unionist unity, alliances with English parties…
OMG! Death by repartition troll!
Really this is getting to be too much.
Any thread about the political situation now descends into this nonsense. It’s always the same person. And now we have declan back as well, which is funny cos I mentioned him just last night.
It’s a case of picking the most simplistic (bloodiest solution) and moulding the facts to go with it – damn tedious.
Admin….
“As usual I think unionists are ignoring the elephant in their living room that is Scottish independence. Instead they content themselves with trying to rearrange the furniture – unionist re-alignment, unionist unity, alliances with English parties…”
I would tend to agree Rabelais, and I grew up within the “unionist tradition” (which is becoming increasingly anachronistic given what could potentially happen in Scotland but even due to what is happening at the wider European level).
I suspect that Scottish independence is some way off, however, but it is still probably too early to make a judgement as many of the current Labour difficulties can be attributed to factors other than a (as yet untested) Scottish desire to be shot of the Union. The next general election will be interesting all across the UK.
There was an interesting Simon Jenkins piece in the Sunday Times today where English Nationalism was referred to.
I think Peat the exit of Scotland might be sooner than many imagine. I just don’t think that the Scots have the stomach for being governed by the Westminster Tories for two maybe three terms.
Frustrated democrat, you say of UUP/Tory links:
‘Good for the Union, NEVER stronger, the Conservatives are the party of the Union.’
You can’t be serious. How can a party that with, what is it, 1 seat in Scotland be THE party of the Union. Only myopic Ulster unionism could think that the union is safe in the hands of the Tories.
billie-Joe
“[i]Here, I’ll start a sentence: “The IRA is about to back to war and I offer the following demonstrable facts as evidence….”
No rush, I’m off to start targeting and recruiting for the rest of the afternoon.”[/i]
…makes a change from robbing banks, selling explosive tactics to Farc and brutally murdering young Republicans in border farms.
…all in a days work for the IRA
Rabelais
Scotland will be a part of the Union for a long time to come even the SNP accepts that.
The Conservative party believes in the Union, it was Labour that opened a parliament in Scotland.
Interestingly many of the traits of the SNP in action ( apart from the independence part which is an aspiration that is well and truly on the back burner) are Conservative in nature not Labour e.g Europe. So you know where the previous Conservative vote went.
So for those who believe in the union, vote for a Party that believes in it and can actively strive to preserve it by showing it works for the people!
Could someone please show me where I said the IRA would go back to war if Policing & Justice powers were NOT transferred? Some posters are twisting my words for their own ends. I was merely stating what happened the last time the Tories embraced Unionist votes to stay in power and in turn stalled the Peace Process. I DID say that the Tories were a naturally bigoted, racist, anti-Irish ring wing shower that got a kick of sticking the boot into Irish Republicans. Hence they will be no friends of Sinn Fein when they regain power. I also DID say, and nowhere did I state that I agreed with it, that if a new vacuum comes back where Policing & Justice have still not been devolved AND the Tories link it to IRA Army Council didbandment there will be those who take advantage of this for their own ends. That is what usually happens in Irish history.
The Union isn’t “strong” in any party’s hands because, no matter which English party is in power, the Scots want out. The Union is actually weaker in Tory hands because of Scotland’s dislike of them.
Whether this forcibly solves the Northern Irish problem, who knows; perhaps becoming England’s new favourite pet will make local matters worse.
rabelais .
‘it does seem then that Cameron is preparing for perhaps a narrower election victory than many predict.’
Wise man . It could be 2 years to the next election and we all know that a week is a long time in politics. We’ve seen Brown go from near mass popular adulation to near mass popualr rejection in a few months . Remember how confident the British Labour party were with Neil Kinnock ?
‘In some ways the whole thing illustrates to me the desperation and intellectual confusion at the heart of the UUP and unionism generally.’
I would not use the word ‘intellectual’ in describing the ‘heart’ of unionism . It does look ‘pathetic ‘ from an outside i.e non unionist perspective particularly given previous Tory ‘treatment’ of the unionist ‘poodle’ in view of the first suspension of Stormont,and Thatcher’s Anglo Irish Agreement.
‘To hitch itself to a party, which as Scotland breaks away will find itself increasingly the representive of English nationalism, strikes me as something which will eventually grate with grassroots unionists.’
Cameron is attempting to ‘deflect ‘ the English nationalist charge by focusing on NI and lets face it NI delivers more pro Tory MP’s than either Wales or Scotland . It’s just intelligent politcs for the Tories . For the UUP it’s beggars can’t be choosers time once again . And let’s face there is always the possibility of a hung Parliament in which they get to be ‘influential’.
‘Scotland will go.’
Maybe.
‘ The union is breaking up.’
On the other hand it may be undergoing radical reform to which the outcome remains yet unclear. I would not hatchet counts until they chicken
‘
The Tories in power will precipetate Scottish independence.’
Now that is a strong possibility I’d agree . However nice Mr Tony boy Cameron is no Thatcher and his Scottish name might help dilute anti Union sentiment to some extent .
‘As usual I think unionists are ignoring the elephant in their living room that is Scottish independence.’
Par for the Unionist course – they did the same with Irish Independence and it worked ? well did’nt it ?
‘Instead they content themselves with trying to rearrange the furniture – unionist re-alignment, unionist unity, alliances with English parties…’
Of course . They are easily placated . Keep busy moving the deck chairs on SS Titanic and don;t forget to keep sending those 6 billion a year to keep the union afloat thos side of the North Channel.