“Gerry Adams is a block to progress”
That’s the view of Northern Ireland First Minister, the DUP’s Peter Robinson. The quote didn’t make it to the BBC report which adds another instead – “Sinn Féin should get on with it and stop dragging their feet.” And DUP MP, and NI Finance Minister, Nigel Dodds joins the fray
What really bugs Gerry Adams and why we are seeing this sort of childish behaviour from Sinn Fein is due to their frustration at not being able to get their own way over certain issues. When their spokespersons talk about demanding equality it is code for getting their own way. When they talk about lack of engagement, it is because they do not get their own way in meetings. Unfortunately for Sinn Fein, and happily for the Unionist community, the days of Unionists being pushed around or intimidated by Sinn Fein are over. The DUP position on the devolution of policing and justice powers and the provision of Irish Language legislation is perfectly clear. It does no good for Sinn Fein to keep repeating the lie that the DUP signed up to these issues at St Andrews. Sinn Fein need to stop the tantrums, stop holding ordinary people to ransom, and get down to the business of government.
Is it a crisis yet? Adds A quick reminder, from March this year – “failure to deliver [policing and justice powers] will seriously damage [the Sinn Féin leadership's] credibility.”Adds The UTV report carries a fuller quote from Peter Robinson.
“Gerry Adams is a block to progress.
Instead of lecturing the DUP he should stop blocking the transaction of Executive business.
The DUP will not be rolling over for him or any Republican.
Sinn Fein just doesn’t seem to get it.
Progress is made and agreements are reached when both sides are content. Adams seems to think that it is the role of everyone to move to his position.
That just will not happen”
Pete,
you have worn me down. You accuse me of not paying attnetion to what has already happened and yet you give no weight to the British Government support for SF’s position. The DUP’s veto is useless if it means cutting off their political nose etc. But we’ve been down this path many times before and no doubt will be again. If Robbo does not jump before the new year I will freely admit I am wrong but if he does – it will have been because of political pressure – and I hope you will do the same.
As I’ve already stated Sammy.
“Yet again, you’re making it up as you go along.”
Additionally,
Pete,
an episode of the Sopranos and then its me leaba – incidentally whatever to that malarkey about man and ball?
“Yet again, you’re making it up as you go along.”
Picador ,
At last, Dr Karadzic (GreenFlag) has found some acolytes. How depressing!’
GGN and RG Cuan are not ‘acolytes ‘ . They see the cul de sac politics to which NI in it’s present format is condemned for the foresseable future .
I’ll ask you to take back your ‘Dr Karadzic remark ‘ or don’t ever expect a reply to any of your posts from me in future . You are aware I have stated on many occassions that at a fair ‘repartition’ should be administered by a neutral international agency such as the UN or EU and should not be implemented after a civil or uncivil war or by either government acting unilaterally.
‘And for all you Doomsday scenarists, look at what happened in South Africa.’
Northern Ireland is NOT South Africa . All South Africans regardless of skin colour, race , ethnic group or religion are quite happy to accept being South Africans .
That is NOT the case in Northern Ireland . Almost one half of the population identifies with the Irish Republic and the other half with the United Kingdom . Both parties are divided by religion even if in many cases that ‘religion’ is nominal . No part of South Africa wants to reunite with Botswana or Zimbabwe nor Mozambique .
I happen to believe that Irish Nationalists and Republicans in Northern Ireland are wasting their political energies trying to ‘negotiate’ or share power with a political philosophy – Unionism which on this island belongs to the last century . No good will come of it .It can’t. The politcal corpse of Unionism should be left to ‘die’ by itself in it’s own small corner of this island . Political unionism has nothing to offer the rest of this island -IMO .
The sooner the present Assembly collapses the better . The idea of ‘renegotiation ‘of the present agreement by Turgon among others is not on . It’s taken 40 years to produce the GFA. I’d say that’s enough time to get it as right as possible and if that’s not good enough for Unionists then they need find somebody else to negotiate with.
When the present Assembly collapses both Governmens should move to repartition NI in as fair a manner as possible with the administration of such a partition being the responsibility of the UN/EU .
Enough time , money and political energy has been spent and wasted on the present 6 county ‘failed’ entity .
Turgon,
You refuse to consider the Nationalist commmunity’s chosen representatives as worthy of sharing power with. Ergo you are against power sharing. And this because these representatives are “terrorists”. And this can mean as little as belonging to a party which has not condemned terrorist actions in the past or was associated with or is associated with people who have killed people. A very loose definition of “terrorist” and one you refuse to apply to your own side. I have not seen you leave the TUV over their prancing around with Clifford Peeples nor do you consider the DUP beyond the pale despite the fact that prominent figures in that party conspired to import weapons which were subsequently used to kill people. So you are against power sharing with the Nationalist community on the basis of double standards in relation to your own tribe. In what way are you NOT an ethno-religious bigot?
Sammy, as a betting man, what odds will you give that the price that SF has to pay to the DUP to get itself off the hook that it impaled itself on by misleading its own Ard Fheis on the timeframe for the devolution of peace and justice powers is the disbandment of PIRA’s Army Council? And what odds would you give that this crisis provides the perfect opportunity for the SF leadership to do that with the least amount of internal resistance since it will be sold to them as a choice between the Army Council and direct rule? If that happens, don’t forget to ask the SF leadership to redistribute all the wealth that the Army Council holds in trust for the membership to the membership… you don’t want a few hundred million to be divided among the elite alone, do you? I won’t ask you for the odds on the SF elite delivering those hidden assets and funds to the Sisters of Mercy instead of retaining them for private advantage.
Greenflag, repartition may be the only workable solution, but the current dispensation – agreed by all communities and protagonists – is that those who wish to remain part of the UK can do so as long as they form a majority. I think that if the magic number is ever reached, that repartition will be forced onto the agenda by a substantial minority of violent loyalists/unionists, rather than success in a border poll automatically meaning the ending of partition. The agenda should have been to persuade those who are British that their sense of national identity would not result in any disadvantage them in a united Ireland. Instead, the agenda was set upon agreeing that their fears were legitimate, and agreeing that their claim to the territory of Northern Ireland was also legitimate, and, further, agreeing that the Republic of Ireland could not guarantee their freedom and equality as citizens and that, ergo, the state must be disbanded and replaced with an entity that is acceptable to those who are British. Now I know that dub will claim “No, the agenda is a federal Ireland” but that was never a realistic option wherein full integration is required for that entity to become economically viable. Any ‘swap’ of ownership that didn’t address the economic failure of NI could never be sustained by a small country like Ireland. So, I think we will get to your repartition idea in the end but not by the happy expedient that you would wish.
GreenFlag,
My, we are touchy tonight.
Listen, it’s been pointed out to you on countless occasions that re-partition would not be possible without serious violence (and that’s an understatement).
You have on many occasions replied, nonsense, no need for violence, as long as an internation agency such as the UN (!) or EU (!) were involved.
On one occasion you even cited the involvement of these agencies in Bosnia as a success, proof that re-partition was a workable solution.
So as long as you continue to bang on about ‘fair re-partition’ in the manner of a cracked record I will refer to you as Dr Karadzic.
Perhaps if you don’t like it you might re-think through your grand colonial-era proposition and give some consideration to the human beings who would become history’s statistics.
I can assure you that I find the prospect of being visited by the ethnic cleansers you would unleash (and there are plenty of them out there) a thousand times more offensive.
Bosnia on the edge again – Paddy Ashdown
A few posters have stated that many Nationalists couldn’t care less if the Executive collapsed in the morning and that is something that I’ve also been hearing more and more of too. However, as a Nationalist, I would caution them as there is a bigger political world revolving outside the Wee Six and anyone hoping for a return to Direct Rule should stop and think, particularly if a Conservative administration comes to power. I believe that Unionists AND Sinn Fein are also looking at this bigger Westminster picture as it is increasingly likely that the Tories WILL form the next government. David Cameron has been making overtures to Unionism this last while and this has rumbled & stirred a few Republicans with longer memories. There is NO doubt that the red alert light is flashing at Connolly House. This is one of the reasons the DUP are stalling. They are playing on Gordon Brown’s weakness and hoping for the return of a xenophobic, right wing, anti-Republican Tory administration. Sinn Fein too can see the writing on the wall and are desperately pushing for the transfer of policing & justice BEFORE Cameron and the Tories return to power as it would be difficult for them to reverse a Stormont Executive appointed Policing & Justice minister. In the 2 years before the Tories lost the 1997 General Election they were in hock to the UUP MP’s, the Peace Process stalled, Republicans grew frustrated & angry AND the ceasefire collapsed. The same COULD happen again and, as someone has already stated, dissidents could move to fill the political vacuum. For EVERYONE’S sake the DUP & Sinn Fein should sort this out NOW. I think giving the Policing & Justice office to the Alliance Party is a cop out but if it saves powersharing I for one could live with it for a few years. One community getting the upper hand on the other ALWAYS ends up in BOTH suffering. As John Hume said an eye for an eye leaves EVERYONE blind.
Dave,
Why could a politically federated Ireland not at the same time be fully economically integrated?
Also even in a non federal unitary state the ulster (ie ulster protestant) identity could be offically recognised as part of Irish culture… i do not see that the irish national state would have to be dismembered.
I think you and greenflag underestimate the possibility of change in attitudes in ordinary people in the protestant communities in the north where i myself have come across very little antipathy to things Irish, in fact often quite the oppposite. Paisley was brave enough to start stating these things publicly. I do not think he will be the last ulster protestant leader to do so.
regards,
dub.
LURIG (anything to do with Glenariff?)
The Tories WILL form the next administration with a substantial majority.
But I don’t believe that the situation is necessarily as bleak as you might suppose.
The link-up with the UUP is for cosmetic GB political reasons. The SNP are on the rise and Cameron is reassuring the GB electorate that he stands for the union (the one between England and Scotland) – a shrewd move (cleverer than Brown’s Britishness lessons in schools or his enjoyment of Gazza’s goal against the Scots). The UUP link -up is mood music.
The Tories will most likely have a whopping majority and will have no need for unionist votes at Westminister. Gordon Brown is fighting for his political life and needs unionist votes to survive votes (such as the one on 42-days). The last thing he wants or needs is for the Stormont Executive to come down.
Likewise when David Cameron comes to power the last things he wants to deal with are ‘the dreary steeples’. The Tories will implement the same policy with regard to the GFA, StAA, etc and will continue close co-operation with the Irish government. At the same time they will be devolving more power to Scotland and Wales.
Indeed. The Conservative concept of the Union is not one that gives any thought for Northern Ireland. The entire English political establishment still consider us comically roguish Irish Paddies and Teagues; a group of expensive in-fighting boors that they could just as well do without.
dub,
You are quite right.
Some obsessive people have been trolling on this site for the last 2-3 years trying to turn every thread into a debate on the ludicrous notion of ‘fair-partition’.
There used to be another one called Declan who was fixated on the Catholic birth-rate plateauing before 2021. I think he went to work as a mercenary in Iraq.
Picador/Ob101010
I hear what you are saying and yes, Picador, the Glens of Antrim played a big part in my youth, an oasis of calm and escape through the heavy days of the 1970′s. Surely the most beautiful part of Ireland; rain, hail or shine (now there’s another debate!) The Tories will probably NOT need Unionist votes in the next parliament but they are most likely taking their lead on the North from Lord Trimble and that worries me. Trimble was hung on his own petard of decommissioning and my fear is that the Tories will link the devolution of Policing & Justice to IRA Army Council disbandment. In effect we will have another long drawn out stalemate. In addition the Tories revelled in their anti-Republican & anti-Irish ideology and this bigoted, right wing Dalmation has certainly NOT changed it’s spots. One remembers the fun the Tory Home Office had with the mental torture of a pregnant Roisin McAliskey chained to a bed AND the collapse of the Peace Process in 1996 because they were in hock to the UUP MP’s. Many Republicans have NOT forgotten this. A weakened Gordon Brown is increasingly dependant on DUP Westminster votes for simple survival so I cannot see him agreeing to transfer of Policing & Justice while he needs them to clings to power. It’s NO wonder Sinn Fein is sounding more and more desperate. On one hand Brown needs the DUP while the dark sinister cloud of the Conservative Party looms large on the political horizon. So it’s a WIN WIN situation for Unionism and a VERY VERY weak Sinn Fein knows that.
“Why could a politically federated Ireland not at the same time be fully economically integrated?”
Because you need full control over the sovereignty in order to integrate it, achieving common policies and practices and eliminating the fiscal deficit (currently running at 8 billion Euros annually). How do you manage the economic integration if all or some of the applicable political sovereignty resides with or is shared with the federated state? On a practical level, there is no way to implement fundamental changes without having the power to implement them directly (devolving the power to others to cut their own throats won’t lead to a rush of the projected suicides). How do you harmonise an area where the public sector accounts for 71% of GDP with an area where the public sector accounts for only 34% of GDP if you must gain the consent of the political representatives of those who benefit from that disparity before you can eradicate it? For example, there are more people employed in the civil service in NI than there are in the Republic of Ireland. Admittedly, many of them will lose their jobs through redundancy when they are no longer performing functions for the UK, post unity. But are you going to say to others, “Look, we need your permission to sack you. Can we have it please?” No, and you’re not going to expect their politicians to have the balls to do it either – so devolving those powers to them and setting targets is a waste of time. These people have grown fat on subvention and damned if they’ll ever give it up without a bitter fight. You also don’t achieve economies of scale if you don’t have that scale because you’re financing the duplicate costs of two separate systems. So, integration of health care, policing, education, etc, will require one overall administration – ergo, sovereignty will not reside within a federated state. If anyone thinks that unity means “as you were” in a small economy then they are badly mistaken: it means a radical reconstruction of your state to make it cost efficient. Of course, pointing that out simply serves to highlight how difficult it will be to get that magic figure of 51%. Many of those public sector turkeys will be catholics and not many of them will vote to bring the economic axe down on their necks.
“Also even in a non federal unitary state the ulster (ie ulster protestant) identity could be offically recognised as part of Irish culture… i do not see that the irish national state would have to be dismembered.”
Well, so far, this is my pet theory – and may be wrong (according to George). The GFA imposes a binding obligation on the government of the Republic of Ireland to exercise power with “rigorous impartiality” in regard to both British nationalism and Irish nationalism in any unified entity. That rules out Irish self-determination because a government that is required to act with “rigorous impartiality” cannot be partial to Irish nationalism, the default value of the nation state, or any Irish national interests that conflict with British national interests. The term “rigorous impartiality” has a political meaning that is applied within Northern Ireland to mean neutralisation of the symbols and identity of the state, and if it is to be applied in Ireland, will likely be held by the courts to have the same meaning as it was intended to have by those who inserted it into the agreement and implemented it within Northern Ireland accordingly. So it will acquire its legal meaning in the Supreme Court via its political meaning.
“I think you and greenflag underestimate the possibility of change in attitudes in ordinary people in the protestant communities in the north where i myself have come across very little antipathy to things Irish, in fact often quite the oppposite.”
History, on the other hand, shows that unionism is best advanced by the threat of violence – from when it came. Be it Carson or Paisley (forming two paramilitary groups in response to the Anglo-Irish Agreement) or Robinson donning his red beret, there is a vein of militarism within that tradition that is ignored at your own peril.
Lurig,
i find this tory orange card playing extremely scary as well. i thought this was all the stuff of the past and that post gfa, the british parties would all adopt a “neutral” attitude to NI. In many ways this is what gfa meant to me personally and i believe that the same was true for the provos. the deal was indigenous, the brits were to “withdraw” politically. blair, ahern and paisley are all gone. we are now seemingly facing very different interpretations of gfa from britain. there was a much derided article by geoffrey wheatcroft recently in a gb newspaper(think that is his name) who said that in the context of Glasgoew East and the historical disappearance of tory party from Scotland that tory party might play the orange card again. i too thought this absurd at the time and now a couple of weeks later hey presto! so much of ireland’s troubles have been caused by tories using ireland for domestic political advantage. i for one am shocked that we are seeing thie nightmare spectacle again. another thing in the papers i laughed at recently was the posturings of some dissidents in derry that the troubles having started there would start there again and that they would not have to do anything to spur this on… the british could be relied upon to do this for them. i am not laughing any more.
So Dave what you are saying is that there wont be any jobs should people wish to unite under the 50 plus 1 maths.
But the GFA is in part an internal UK agreement and British Irish treaty which would be ripped up after unification.
While there are indeed militant unionists there are now broadly speaking non-militant republicans, republicans without terror use; remember when negotiations in the 70s happened between the IRA and the British the British could not give ground to demands of a pull-out because of the image problems associated with loss of prestige. They could not be seen so clearly to giving up geography on the basis of terror. That however is not the case.
Northern Ireland operates on a qualified franchise called consent which is lost for good once sprung with a majority in the Irish direction. Sectarianism has not abated this, why should NI continue along these lines whenver it clearly doesn’t work as a safeguard for any NI ‘national’ interest.
dave,
thanks for your answers to my questions. you have certainly made some very good points about the difficulties of a federal arrangement when dramatic economic changes will have to be implemented.
still not convinced on your second point. ulster nationalism not necessarily at all the same thing as british nationalism. thomas davis style irish nationalism (which is still official irish nationalism) can easily accomodate detoxified ulster orange culture viz rossnowlagh orange parade in donegal. irish nationalism regards ulster protestants as irish people. their culture can be paraded as indigenous to this island and also links between presbyterianism and republicanism can be emphasised. without the link to britain the military vein you rightly speak of will wither on the vine in the long run. not for nothing that paisley made all those nods to irishness recently and to salmond and also did his usual anti british routine. the biggest enemy of irish nationalism in the north is trimble style uupism. that is why the recent move by cameron is exceptionally disturbing.
“not for nothing that paisley made all those nods to irishness recently and to salmond and also did his usual anti british routine.”
Paisley likes Salmond because he is replicating not Irish Republicanism but Ulster Nationalism as a means to bank power in Scotland in a similar fashion to the DUP, in terms of undercutting Labour by using ethnic politics and hardships.
Paisley had all the natural attributes of a great leader, the bastard blew it on divisive rhetoric rather than one for pro-NI unison, one year was never enough for change and at the end of his biological and political career too. Hopeless.
Indeed dub,
The Tories in the Glasgow East by-election promoted themselves, in print, poster & media coverage as the CONSERVATIVE & UNIONIST PARTY. They were obviously trying to play the sectarian card in a very Catholic (and Celtic supporting) constituency. However the voters of Glasgow East didn’t let religion impinge on the vote and were merely expressing outrage at Labour (& Conservative) governments that have forgotten one of the poorest parts of mainland Britain. Believe me I have been in Glasgow East on numerous occasions and it is GRIM & POOR!
Locally Sinn Fein has suddenly woken up to the stark reality of Westminster politics & another Tory administration in the near future AND it has jolted them. They took for granted Blair/Brown & Labour but now the fact that Cameron will be the NEXT Prime Minister has shaken them to the core. It is obvious that (Lord) David Trimble is influencing Tory policy in the North as their NI spokesperson recently stated that devolved Policing & Justice WOULD be linked to IRA Army Council disbandment. The shocking Tory record in Ireland needs NO repeating but reality bites now for grassroots Republicans who remember the kicks that the Tories got out of torturing & humiliating Irish Republicans. THIS is one of the major reasons the DUP is stalling. They know Gordon Brown is snookered & in debt to the DUP for the 42 Day detention vote & aware that a Tory government is in the offing. In their position who could blame them for stalling? It further exposes the VERY VERY WEAK & TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE negotiating skills of Sinn Fein & the SDLP.
Lurig
When the Tories say Conservative & Unionist in Glasgow East they mean the union between England and Scotland. Labour are also a Unionist party in that sense.
The big question after the next election is what happens in Scotland. If the Scots go for independence and sooner or later I believe that they will, the picture changes dramatically.
Saor Alba..
.. and victory to the Liberation Tigers of north Belfast!
Sorry, that’s a football team that exists in my mind only.
Oh f**k, what a goal!
Re: Tory bad faith
I can’t see how it would be in the Tory interest to destabilise the north. They will have their hands full trying to sort out the economy and dealing with the Scottish issue. They will continue to work in partnership with the Irish government.
I don’t particularly trust them either but I can’t see what they have to gain from upsetting the applecart. The days of Northern Ireland is as British as Finchley are long gone.
Besides we don’t even know yet what assurances SF got at St Andrew’s. Maybe it’s about time they made them public so that we can judge for ourselves.
And on another note, lets hope Obama makes it to the White House and that Hillary Clinton retains a strong voice. That would be good insurance against British bad faith.
On one occasion you even cited the involvement of these agencies in Bosnia as a success, proof that re-partition was a workable solution.
A better analogy would be the divorce of Slovakia and the Czech Republic.
Much has been said about Cameron’s overtures.My guess is that he is just another cynical pol who actually does not give **** about N.I..
Remember that Thatcher similarly sucked up to the unionists in 1979…..and then shafted them with the Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985.
On one occasion you even cited the involvement of these agencies in Bosnia as a success, proof that re-partition was a workable solution.
A better analogy would be the divorce of Slovakia and the Czech Republic.
No it isn’t. The frontier between these two nations had been clearly delineated decades (if not centuries) before so when the divorce occurred it was smooth as velvet just as that between England and Scotland will be. No external agencies were involved nor did they need to be.
Our situation is more analagous to Cyprus or various parts of the Balkans. Nagorno-Karabakh even!
Also, the Czechs and Slovaks do not have a history of mutual antagonism. They are similar ethnically, culturally, linguistically, confessionally and historically (having both been ruled by Austria for several centuries).
The choice between bigoted,homophobic,evangelical bible thumpers with views from the dark ages or ex murderers, how lucky we all are to live in N.I.I would rather be ruled by either London or Dublin than by these tubes.
” I can’t see how it would be in the Tory interest to destabilise the north.”
Picador
Why would it be destabilised by a Conservative Party branch here? Can’t Nationalists cope with political diversity? You have a much lower opinion of them than I do!
‘As British as Finchley’ – no, but who asked for that? But you need to reconcile yourself to ‘British’ – yes and for the forseeable future. That’s in the GFA, in the Act and reflects the likley vote in any refrendum in say the next 20 years. That’s what Nationalists signed up to in return for all the other protections and guarantees.
So what would then be the problem with the Conservatives setting up here? Perhaps we need to move away from the current sectarian political midden to a new paradigm based upon Conservative, Labour and FF? We dont seem to be able to move forward with the current parties.
And the great thing about democracy is that, whatever we debate here, it will be the people in NI who will chose between alternatives. Perhaps if they are offered a new menu and a new narrative they will be more adventurous. They arent stupid and want this place to move on. Above all, what we need are people of substance, ability and character to get into politics again and offer a lead.
Picador,
I think the thing is that people who are at least willing to look at repartition do so because of a desire to avoid what happened to Bosnia rather than wishing the likes of it.
The way I look at it is this, how many human lives would be lost in taking Larne street by street, house by house, for example for the Republic 1000?, 10,000? more?
Would it be worth it?
Who do do the heavy fighting? The Free State Army? I doubt it.
code word : zipper
Probably would be better if NI were directly ruled by London and Dublin, considering all this bickering and stalling! Let the old political pro’s run the show! Sure the bond between Dublin and London is even stronger now than when the whole of Ireland was under British rule! There is also a level playing field now which never existed before! Irish Nationalists say will never be overlooked again by a London government!
Trying to wallpaper over the mutual hatred that exists between the 2 communities in NI won’t work either I suppose! Robinson & McGuinness’ differences as well as the sheer hatred of each other is just a reflection of the common folk of NI!
What one community hates about the other is really what they hate about themselves deep down! Time for some deep reflection folks, or maybe you are all afraid of what you’ll discover!
“You should talk to a few more people from that constituency if you really think 31 votes is the difference. Boundary changes and a stronger pitch from the UUP is likely to put that one out into the grass.”
Mick on about Strangford yesterdayu. Boundary changes there actually make a nationalist gain more likely.
That’s from Nic Whyte:
“The New Boundaries: Under the Boundary Commission’s proposals, Strangford (as usual) is much the most altered constituency. It loses seven Castlereagh wards, five (Ballyhanwood, Carrowreagh, Dundonald, Enler and Graham’s Bridge) to East Belfast and two (Carryduff East and Carryduff West) to South Belfast, but gaining three Down district wards (Ballymaglave, Ballynahinch East and Kilmore) from South Down. This makes the new constituency 1.3% more Catholic, and 1.2% less Protestant than the old. This must increase the chance of the Nationalist seat so nearly missed in both 2003 and 2007.”
“Its clear that the DUP are incapable of sharing power with those pesky fenians. Just proves that the 6 counties are ungovernable.”
No it doesnt. They can be governed perfectly well from our capital city London as many other parts of the UK are.
Now, SF signed up to an agreement and its time to stop posturing and put up or shut up. That also applies to the DUP.
Robinson says he has cleared 30 papers for an Executive Meeting but they are all lying with McGuinness awaiting his clearance. OK. Let’s see what they are and we will see the truth on what is going on.
I do find all this talk of Britishness interesting, not least if Scotland pulls the plug there will be no Britishness worth mentioning.
Funny how the only two groups within the UK who still talk about Britishness seriously, are Gordon Brown and his advisers and the DUP. The UUP having gone all quiet on this front, acting like a parent organizing an arranged wedding, not sure if they should look south or over the water for a suitable suitor for their offspring.
“They can be governed perfectly well from our capital city London”
Posted by cynic on Jul 27, 2008 @ 01:08 PM
Thats the whole oxymoronical thing about the north cynic. You see, Northern Ireland may exist as a geographical entity on a map, but a northern Irish society/identity does not exist, nor never will. There are two polarised communities that live in this part of Ireland, one looks to and identifies with Britain and London and the other to Ireland and Dublin. A northern Irish nation/country/identity is non existent. It reminds of Eric Honecker and the old East Germany. He too tried to create an identity that i.e. East German, that simply had no basis in history other than the fact that someone came along one day and drew a line on a map. So please come off it. London may be your capital city but its not mine! You can stick your head in the sand all you like and pretend that its not so, but the simple matter of fact is that approx 45%+, and growing, of our wee country see Dublin as their Capital City and rightly so! When the DUP and unionism speaks about the people of Ulster/Northern Ireland what they really mean to say is the unionist people. They certainly don’t speak for me and neither do you. P.s. If Stormont was to fail, I think you’ll find that it will not be exclusively ruled by London alone. Indeed I think you’ll find that it will be jointly ruled by An rialtas na hEireann, my government, from Dublin, my Capital City.
Dave
‘ repartition may be the only workable solution, but the current dispensation – agreed by all communities and protagonists – is that those who wish to remain part of the UK can do so as long as they form a majority.’
Indeed -full marks for the obvious.
‘ I think that if the magic number is ever reached, that repartition will be forced onto the agenda by a substantial minority of violent loyalists/unionists,’
I agree which is why Nationalists and Republicans should push for a fair repartition and leave Unionists to squabble between themselves as to it’s merits and demerits . No matter which loyalist /unionist faction wins that debate both will ‘lose’.
‘rather than success in a border poll automatically meaning the ending of partition. ‘
This idea i.e border poll success is one for people who believe in fairies and in never never land or somewhere at the end of some rainbow .
‘The agenda should have been to persuade those who are British that their sense of national identity would not result in any disadvantage them in a united Ireland.’
More nonsense -there are over 150,000 British people already resident in the Republic . SFAIK not one has complained about being ‘disadvantaged ‘ because they are British.
‘Instead, the agenda was set upon agreeing that their fears were legitimate, and agreeing that their claim to the territory of Northern Ireland was also legitimate’
Unionists have a legitimate claim to some of the territory of Northern Ireland and they did have ‘legitimate’ fears back in the 1920′s and even up to recently .
‘ the agenda is a federal Ireland’
Ireland is a small country . We need slightly less government not more. Federal Government suits very large countries or those with very diverse populations /regions etc. The USA , Australia , Canada , Russia etc .
‘ Any ‘swap’ of ownership that didn’t address the economic failure of NI could never be sustained by a small country like Ireland.’
The ‘economic failure’ of Northern Ireland is not of an order that can ever be significantly addressed by a DUP/SF forced coalition . Not in the next 10 or 20 years and perhaps not for 100 if ever. We need to remember that as a separate self governoing State -Northern Ireland has always been dependent on Westminster Exchequer subvention . In any event the two party forced coalition (SF/DUP) can barely speak to each much less agree on a set of ‘tough’ policies that would move NI forward away from 70% public sector dependence . Quite the contrary in fact both parties are looking for more from Westminster not less . In these circumstances the Nationalists and Unionists of Northern Ireland will remain in a state of indecision and uncertainty re their longer terms ‘separate’ political and economic futures for another century if not more. . My point is that whereas Unionists might welcome such a prospect there is no reason for Northern Irish Nationalists or Republicans to do so -in particular if such ‘stagnation’ is inimical to their economic and political interests.
Repartition is a much better prospect for Northern Irish nationalists and republicans . They need to re-assert their right to be part of the Irish ‘political ‘ nation . The Irish Republic cannot deny them that right . As I said above ‘unionism ‘ is a leftover from the 19th century on this island and it can only survive as a political force in a small part of this island i.e the North East and that is where the ‘legitimacy’ for their State that Unionists seek -can only be found -i.e in a part of the present Northern Ireland . Over the remaining 85% of this island ‘traditional unionism’ is and will remain an historical anachronism . Just as it is for the majority of the people of ‘mainland ‘ Britain.
Cynic ,
‘Above all, what we need are people of substance, ability and character to get into politics again and offer a lead.’
Yes – But given the present NI political dispensation – forced mandatory coalition – few powers – no responsibility for ‘Justice’ – almost total public sector dependency for the economy -you will find the NI people of substance and character keeping as far away from local NI politics as possible .
‘They can be governed perfectly well from our capital city London’
I agree . Pity they did’nt govern NI perfectly well from 1920 on then . NI might not be in it’s present predicament. No need to remind me which NI party could’nt trust Westminster then (1920) . Could it possibly be the same party now in 2008 that ‘trusts’ the newer than new Tories
? For a cynic you seem strangely ‘optimistic’ re the possibility of leopards changing spots . I would think once bitten twice shy . But hey there has to be a reason for ‘unionisms ‘ longer term decline on this island and perhaps we have ‘touched ‘ on it !
Posted by cynic on Jul 27, 2008 @ 08:51 AM
moderator /readers
please ignore in last line in above post
‘Posted by cynic on Jul 27, 2008 @ 08:51 AM ‘
An error – cut and paste
Apologies to cynic .
pl
greagoir o’frainclin,
‘There is also a level playing field now which never existed before! Irish Nationalists say will never be overlooked again by a London government!’
I admire your ‘yankee’ optimism
Never mind what Irish nationalists say and yes relations at present between the British and Irish peoples and Governments have never been better but history tells us that if the Tories are a few votes short of winning power at Westminster and if the winning of such power means having to sup with the orange card merchants (UUP or DUP) then Irish ‘nationalists ‘ can say or sing all they want but the interests of the Conservative Party will come first .
Why wouldn’t they ?
I see you are trolling again Dr Karadzic.
How many threads have you polluted over the last couple of years with this boring repetitive nonsense?
It must run into the hundreds now.
“‘There is also a level playing field now which never existed before! Irish Nationalists say will never be overlooked again by a London government!’”
I really did chuckle at this one, remind me again who claims ownership of the playing field? The position above can best be termed as begging bowl nationalism, those who advocate it have removed all memory of the 20th century from their minds. It is as if Kitty and all that followed on from her never existed, including 1916.
“I really did chuckle at this one, remind me again who claims ownership of the playing field?”
“…..that if the Tories are a few votes short of winning power at Westminster and if the winning of such power means having to sup with the orange card merchants (UUP or DUP) then Irish ‘nationalists ‘ can say or sing all they want but the interests of the Conservative Party will come first”
Aye, but does the GFA and SAA not safeguard the ‘tenants’ rights? The ‘landlord’ cannot have his wicked way anymore!
I’m sure Rothweiler Cowan and the U.S. would ensure foppish Tory boy & Co would remain impartial and maintain the balance. A Tory governmant would have to honour the GFA and SAA; the old ‘Orange Card’ may be the Joker of the pack now!
“They can be governed perfectly well from our capital city London as many other parts of the UK are.”
Cor Blimey mate, London town yer capital! So much for Belfast then cynic!
I gather most Unionists hold the same view as you too!
It’s understandable I suppose given that you are a British subject living in Ireland!
picabore .
‘How many threads have you polluted over the last couple of years with this boring repetitive nonsense?’
Unlike of course the ‘thousands ‘ of repetitions on such universally interesting subjects as
a) The Orange Order.
b) The Robinson Family Serial as sequel to the Chuckie Brothers Comic Opera .
c) Derry or Londonderry
d) Who has killed the most UDA, IRA ,BA, UVF etc etc.
e) Who’s side is God on ?
f) Will Scotland leave the Union
g) Why can’t Unionists be Nationalists
h) Why Catholics are destined for hell whereas Pentecostalists are saved from Hell by babbling in tongues .
i) The result of a Fermanagh Co Council by election
etc
mick hall,
‘I really did chuckle at this one,’
Here too -Usually Cynic is more on the ball -must be the weekend
greagoir o frainclin’
‘ A Tory governmant would have to honour the GFA and SAA;’
Of course – Define ‘Honour’. Do you mean in theory or in practice ? We’re talking Tory politicians here remember ?:)
Rottweiler Cowan is very busy these days looking for a new set of choppers now that the Celtic Tiger has run off with his canines and incisors
Perfidious Albion has interests not friends As for Perfidious Hibernia ? it’s the same deal at the end of the day
In our new post Sarko worldview we have apparently re discovered our Irish diaspora as being a new focus for our ‘connecting’ to the rest of the Anglosphere (including also the non Anglo Argentine where some half a million of our diaspora reside:) If we are to believe our Government pundits soon Irish Americans and even those who feel themselves connected but can’t provide the paperwork will be welcomed to work and reside in the ex Celtic Tiger .
Call it the beginnings of the Transatlanticisation of the EU
One of my brilliant earlier ideas which Cowan has now ‘thieved’ as his life belt . I’ll not begrudge him 
Well, basically there Dr Karadzic you are showing your arrogant contempt for northerners as a whole, whether they be unionist or nationalist. Tis no wonder you are so keen to set us at each others throats again.
Many of the subjects you outlined above are indeed redolent of the parish pump but, like it or not, those topics make up part of the political debate in the north.
‘All politics is local’ as someone once said.
You must find these subjects interesting as you frequently comment on them, sometimes lucidly. But unfortunately you ruin these contributions by constantly evangelising to us on the subject of repartition – the apparently magical solution to all our ills – and you invariably mould the rest of your arguments to fit this end.
It’s almost as if, to paraphrase Goebbels, if you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.
Greenflag, you aren’t the first to come up with the repartition idea. Both the British and Irish governments have considered it at various points – and invariably rejected it for the reason that it would make matters worse not better. Perhaps you should go and research this material; but unfortunately I suspect your mind is closed.
You’ve found your big idea and you’re going to run with it. In this way you are like one of those religious fundamentalists whom you so rightfully disparage – constantly seeking for an opportunity to spread the word. It is so goddamn tedious!
You seem intelligent. Sometimes I wonder if you genuinely believe this stuff (in which case you are sadly a crank) or are you doing it on someone else’s behest.
“Of course – Define ‘Honour’. Do you mean in theory or in practice ? We’re talking Tory politicians here remember ?:)”
Very true, Greenflag, as we’ve never had a Tory government yet with the GFA and SAA in place. It remains to be seen! However, I don’t think that they’d jeopardise the stability of NI and the peace settlement! Sleveens they may be, but there is far too much to lose if they did.
…as being a new focus for our ‘connecting’ to the rest of the Anglosphere (including also the non Anglo Argentine where some half a million of our diaspora reside:)……
True again, Dave McWilliams mentioned reconnecting with our diaspora as well I remember reading.
Pete
And yet you still do not acknowledge that the claim you wish the SF leadership to repeat has already been proven false.
Er, how, exactly? Your quotes are not sufficient for a disproof. Not even close by a huge stretch. Aside from the fact that any of thos epeople could lie, we have absolutely no way of knowing exactly what Blair said or his aides said or what the various back channels indicated, or what exactly the DUP did and did not say. Or the Irish Government, or the US Government.
Unfortunately discussion with someone who will not accept that their own arguments should be rational – rather than their promotion of the idea that a particular party’s politically expedient arguments should be sufficient – is somewhat less than worth the energy and time expended.
Again, you completely miss the point. Mick made and point on how SF would bve viewed. I was discussing that, and what SF’s strategy might be with him. The “truth”, whatever it is, is tangential to that, and what SF’s interests are are tangential to that. I had absolutely no interest in discussing anything with you. That is typically a general point, since you don’t actually discuss anything and merely repeat yourself and I’m quite capable of reading it the first time, thanks but in this case it’s a very specific point, because what I wanted to talk about was fuck all to do with what you wanted to talk about.
‘I don’t think that they’d jeopardise the stability of NI and the peace settlement! Sleveens they may be, but there is far too much to lose if they did.’
I agree but I just would’nt bet the farm on it
Circumstances change . Ireland North or South is ‘important ‘ only to a degree with HMG . Beyond a certain point the ‘return on investment’ be it of a political or monetary kind levels off and historically ‘reduces’ compared to returns elsewhere. History remains quiescent for long periods in the UK and then suddenly there is a rush to replace an old order with a new one . In that context we can’t predict what Tories will do for example in a smaller Union even one excluding Scotland. The Tories could not entirely let go of Ireland in 1920 . I would think that there are still many within Torydom who still frown ‘privately’ if not publicly on the very idea of an ‘independent ‘ Irish Republic .
Among this lot you’ll find the anti EU xenophobes etc -ultra free a la Trevelyan free marketeers etc etc .