‘Even in the “good old days” of 10-11 MPs out of 250-350, the NI Unionist-Tory bloc had no influence whatsoever (hence no ministerial positions).’
In those days the 10-11 werent IN the Con party.

‘failing to represent NI’s interests’ – you really need to think about this. Con MPs might or might not be able to influence policy but you seem to be suggesting that somehow it is better to stay in a wee local band and ‘represent NI’s interests’. We all know this entails peole like you demanding things from a position of TOTAL impotence.

Yet again you simply lapse back into your mantra that ‘were not as British as Finchley you know’ yeah sure we all know that but my income tax, my corporation tax, my tax credit cock up, my child benefit, my state pension, my fuel duty, stamp duty, inheritance tax (well not really), my Govt’s foreign policy and defence policy and the general thrust of health and social policy, government expenditure policy and its impacts on interest rates, inflation and employment are all set in London and for you to say ‘were not as British as Finchley’ frankly doesnt cut it.

Joe Bloggs – a single voter in a GB constituency doesnt have much influence over these things either but he has the right to participate in the political parties and elections that do decide them.

Dont you want politics in Northern Ireland to change? – I guess not after all it would remove Alliance role as fence sitters in chief.

Get some courage and vision

Again, this is why an out-and-out merger is a bad idea.

Even in the “good old days” of 10-11 MPs out of 250-350, the NI Unionist-Tory bloc had no influence whatsoever (hence no ministerial positions).

With 1-3 (and two of those left-leaning) out of 350, this will hardly improve.

Indeed, the UUP would immediately have to give up claiming to support lower corporation tax for NI – this won’t happen any more under a Tory administration than a Labour one, and they know it. Does failing to represent NI’s interests really help given the nature of the local electorate?

Ultimately, this notion comes from the dreamland that NI is as British as Finchley. The problem is, it just isn’t! The (non-)reaction to Iris Robinson’s remarks in Britain just proves this – similar sentiments from a “Mainland” MP would have provoked hysteria in the London tabloids and elsewhere, but they all know NI MPs are fringe fundamentalists to be ignored as much as possible.

One noble Lord might get a junior ministerial post, but other than that NI’s MPs would be no more than lobby fodder at Westminster (often voting against their own instincts and their own constituents’ interests as a result). That’s the debate.

The more I hear of this, the more I suspect it’s going absolutely nowhere.

What issues and goals are better promoted through the new structure ?

And on the flip side, do they see any reduced ability to promote some other economic or social issues ?

The world sees you as Irish, start seeing yourselves as Irish. The so called ‘United’ kingdom is a farce. Every part of it is embarrassed to be in it apart from England of course… it’s days are numbered. From empire to struggling to keep together your fragmented nation… how the tbales turn my friends.

Slan anois agus beanneacht!

Name change called for I think, you seem to speak of neither

Also, I have to say now, running Nicholson as a Tory candidate in the European elections would be utter insanity. I find it incredibly hard to believe that Fred Cobain is OK with this.

As for David Christopher’s complaint about “left wing” UUP being co-opted into a right wing party, several points need to be made.

The first is that there is unlikely to be any change in how the UUP operates at present in the devolved institutions.

The second is that he is fighting an old battle. Labour is not “left wing” and the Tories are not “right wing” as these terms now lack meaning. Both national parties are standing on the same ground with more in common with each other than appears.

Thirdly, the UUP has already lost any meaningful “working class” support in the main urban centre of Belfast to the DUP, to the extent that it ever really possessed it.

Fourthly, and perhaps most importantly, despite the events of 1972 and 1985, large chunks of unionism have always had a strong affinity with the Conservative Party and would undoubtedly support it if they lived in England. The UUP has not been able to capitalise on that inclination since before 1998. if it can do so now, it will certainly cement its position in the short term and demonstrate that it could one day challenge the DUP for leadership once again.

I think you’re right to specify the cross-community positions as an alliance and a coalition. I’m sure we’re all completely non-sectarian, civilised and objectively utilitarian in our preferences on the constitutional question but unless we start including a border-poll in every election how do
we show our personal preference democratically without picking a party that holds our view? How does a middle class nationalist vote Tory on medium term UK management issues whilst remaining a long-term nationalist?

Thanks for that Paddy, you hoary old wag. Of course I knew that but the English accent was a distraction not her religion (the same as my own). So that makes 3.

Kate Hoey was never a cabinet minister, so that actually makes 2.

Take your point, up to a point. Under new arrangements such people could move to England, gain seats there and remain in the same party as before. But three’s not bad when there is no joint party system between the two places.

I don’t see that it tells us much at all, or at least no more than the presence of Patricia Hewitt (Australian), Bryan Gould (New Zealander) or Paul Boateng (son of a Ghanaian cabinet minister) in Labour cabinets since 1997 tells us about the links between British politics and those places. (I don’t have the inclination to perform similar research on the birthplaces of the previous 39 years’ worth of UK cabinet ministers.)

It strikes me that you’re indulging in your frequent habit of over-egging the pudding (or as it’s more colourfully described, “wetting yourself”) over perceived “wins” for Unionism.

It might get the Conservatives one extra seat apart from Sylvia if the UUP were to retake South Antrim, but then David Burnside would have his own baggage.

It’s not going to make the slightest difference to a “sectarian” political division that’s actually based on perceived national identity.

Note sure Lord Alderdice would agree!

In all seriousness, the link is what you make of it – certainly we gain more in terms of strategic learning from the LibDems than we do from the PDs (with whom our link effectively doesn’t exist).

In very general terms, the link to other European Liberal parties has proved invaluable in terms of learning campaign techniques, most obviously recently in terms of revitalizing youth membership.

It’s maybe not so obvious outside the party, but there is more to politics than policies!

**************************************
But most of all, for those whose objective is the de-sectarianization of NI politics, there should be no fear in the idea of elections contested between:
- an NI Conservative (and unionist) Party,
- an NI (cross-community) Liberal Alliance,
- an NI Green Party,
- an NI (cross-community) Labour coalition, and
- a constitutional Irish Republican party (let’s call it “Fianna Fáil”).
****************************************

I think we are stumbling towards such a conclusion. In most instances existing organisations renaming themselves – UUP to Conservative – SDLP to Fianna Fail – Alliance to Liberal – and a few refugees from the SDLP and UUP joining the Irish & British Labour Parties. The DUP/Sinn Fein axis is still there but in a less congenial and more complex environment than exists at present
*******************************************

The FF/SDLP point is a good one. I just don’t think there is an appetite for it in FF. Why form an alliance with losers, and damage your credibility? Derry would be a safe seat, but the rest would be a burden. And lots of the more progressive elements in the SDLP wouldn’t want it either. I don’t think that will really change on either side. Maybe if the SDLP falls to one seat.
**********************************************

Given that Fianna Fail would not contest Westminster, their Northern Ireland committee were open to having a “strategic partner” and declared their love for the SDLP at the Breakfast in Bed incident in April there was always going to be an FF/SDLP arrangement.

Patsy McGlone’s call for an SDLP/FF Pact on “a social democratic basis” (whatever that means) is really kite flying by the SDLP all Ireland committee. Expect the SDLP to be renamed “Fianna Fail-The Social Democratic Party” absolving Fianna Fail from organising in the north as the “National Movement” (as Fianna Fail calls themselves) would have a “sister party” that would be an integral part of the “National Movement” in the North. DeV turned the Oath into “empty formulae” in the Free State in the 20s – expect them to use the SDLP to do the same for them at Westminster.
*****************************************

What will Fred Cobain/Sylvia Hermon/both McGimpsey’s and all those other folk who were involved in the Unionist Labour Group think of this?
*****************************************

While UK Labour have not organised in NI, the Labour leaning UUP reps could join Labour on an individual basis and form an NI group of Labour Reps and members. Irish Labour has an existing structure and will pick up a few SDLP defectors, so it will probably be left to the two Labour Party head offices to work out a structure to accommodate their members
****************************************

“liberal leaning tendancies”
****************************************

“Liberal” in Northern Ireland would be conservative by British (and southern Irish) standards. That said Dave Cameron’s Conservative Party might well be an ideal home for them. The Tories might well pick up a few Alliance defectors and Alliance might well need to consider embracing a more explicitly Liberal message to keep their space.
********************************************

Alarmingly, a full 29% of the workforce are paid by the state against 20% for the UK overall. There needs to be a concerted 25-year programme to rebuild the private sector.
Dave Cameron
********************************************

I think Fianna Fail would agree with the Tories on this point and I think there will be an Economic Liberal V Statist divide opening up between Fianna Fail/Conservatives V Sinn Fein/DUP.

There was talk of an SDLP-UUP opposition to SF/DUP previously and I think Cameron’s point above will be the basis of a cogent narrative to NI politics as it opens up along alternative lines to Orange V Green. The divide would also reasonably break along class lines. In essenence it is the UUP & SDLP adopting new brands, but they are rooting themselves in a more national and (peversely) more liberal narrative

As for Reg and the rest, I can’t see any advantage at all, rather, more disadvantage, as they will certainly not win any voters back from the DUP by appearing as more sophisticated, metropolitan and potentially at the heart of a new government.

As for the line about unionist voters being turned off by the DUP’s Norn Iron nationalism and Iris the Virus’s whacko pronouncements, I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of unionist voters (and a fair proportion of nationalist voters) would wholeheartedly endorse her views on gays and abortion.

The Norn Iron nationalism bit is also gaining currency among many unionists who’ve felt shafted and rebuked by London for so long (and the ref to the AIA here is particularly apt) while northern nationalists are damning about the attitude of the Southern political establishment (and their electorate) to their aspirations down through the years.

Unionists and nationalists have really concluded that we’re stuck with eachother, here, in this weird little provincelet.

With an overwhelmingly bigotted, small minded, and racist electorate who don’t like posh outsiders sticking their nose in – and reserve even more venom for ‘their own’ who would throw their lot in with said intruders.

The current full name of the conservative party is already [The] Conservative and Unionist Party.

Check it here:

http://registers.electoralcommission.org.uk/regulatory-issues/regpoliticalparties.cfm

Agreed. That’s why the UUP link-up with the Conservatives needs to be more substantial. Perhaps they’ll go for dual branding before moving over completely to the ‘Conservative & Unionist Party’ name. A party for all religions and none.