Sinn Fein MLA Barry McElduff has called on nationalists to erase partition by campaigning on issues like SatNavs and UCAS forms. He was speaking at an event in memory of convicted IRA bomber and hunger striker Martin Hurson. The parade followed a GAA football competition at Galbally GAC for the Martin Hurson cup.
Great little review of Listening to Van Morrison by Griel Marcus… It’s a short book, not a biography or a career survey, but an attempt to follow those moments in Morrison’s music, as he’s made it from his first records with Them, from Belfast in 1965 to the present day, when something happens that breaks [...] read our review »
Which reminds me…. Platform for Change’s driving force Robin Wilson has produced a corrective to the notion that the lessons of the NI conflict are easily exportable. Like myself, Robin is associated with the Constitution Unit. He introduced his new book in a CU blog which I here reproduce. The water crisis in Northern Ireland [...] read our review »
The oft-quoted verse from the book of Proverbs, ‘where there is no vision, the people perish,’ (chapter 29, verse 18) opens a new book by Gerry O’Hanlon, A New Vision for the Catholic Church: A View from Ireland (Columba Press, 2011). That verse could be considered an apt summary of the current state of the [...] read our review »
Isn’t a pity barry mcelduff doesn’t have more of these events to go to instead of only 10. Ah well at lest he can go to his political and sectarian gaa to have an Orange Order rant to top up his sectarian hate of Unionists and Protestants.
“We were under orders not to and informed that we were reducing our chances of getting in if we put oursleves down as Irish. ”
…..errrrr who told you that? Its complete bo**ocks.
While at University did you ever talk to any Prod students who are now refusing to apply for NI uiniversities because of what they believe is the gross discrmination aaginst them when they get there?
“And of course, many of the recent patriots who had clubs named after them were part of the same anti-colonialn and revolutionary organisations who espoused the same ideology as those involved in the original Gaelic revival in the late 19th century. Now whether you like it or not, it is cultural and historical.”
Put bluntly how dare you lump in people like Henry Joy McCracken and the United Irishmen in with the murdering scum who killed over 2000 fellow Irishmen including many women and children.
How dare you talk about ‘idealism’ in that campaign.It was a squalid little secratian pogrom that perhaps put a United Irleand back by a genration or more.
All your and SF’s attempts at revisionism to try to cover that up will eventually be seen for what they are. No wonder some of the leadership are now ashamed to admit that they were ever in PIRA.
“Sinn Fein MLA Barry McElduff has called on nationalists to erase partition by campaigning on issues like SatNavs and UCAS forms.”
Ah…normal politics again. But why does Barry’s speech remind me so much of the story of Clochmerle? And if you are too old to remember the plot here’s a summary
“The year is 1925 and the place is Clochmerle, a small wine-growing village in Beaujolais.
When Mayor Barthelemey Piechut decides that his town of Clochmerle requires a monument that will extol the virtues of the Republic and his own administration he ponders long and hard for something suitable. He follows the lead of the ancient Romans, famed for hygiene and noble edifices. He decides that the perfect expression of these two concepts would be a pissoir.
Little was he to dream that this would lead to scandals that would shatter the peacefulness of the town and eventually have world-wide repercussions.”
Billy,
Can you explain to me how exactly you have saw any lodge of the Orange Order with “loyalist terrorist” banners?
I can tell you now that is simply not true and you know it
Harry,
You seem to be developing a blind spot regarding me alright, but I shall bear this cross as best I can.
Is see Concerned Loyalist has been quiet since RG put up that map. There are only a few pockets of Unionism outside of Antrim and north/east Down.
It might not be a bad idea to redraw the boundries of NI.
GRMA Cuairteoir, I noticed that myself.
As for the size of the north, it’s not going to change overnight but some fresh thinking is definitely needed on the issue. I’ve never heard any of the nationalist parties mention the redrawing of the border but it may well be a possibility in the future.
After all, the GFA is about the will of the people and if that means some of current NI joining the south and others remaining in a new NEI, so be it.
“How dare you talk about ‘idealism’ in that campaign.It was a squalid little secratian pogrom.”
Well firstly, if you bothered to red any of my comments and in particular the one strongly condemning Barry McIlduff, you will have noticed that i’m certainly not a Shinner!
Maybe you’re a victim of media representation or had a Da who said ‘they were brought up to hate us’, either way you’re a victim and a product of British policy to devide and conquer. Therefore, you have only my sympathy Cynic.
Most if not all Irish men who take up the gun to remove the British occupation of all things Irish and their attempts to administer their policies (including devide and conquer) do so because of ideals. Some of those were the removal of a contemporary Imperialist force (gone are the days were they march in their thousands on your capital you know). But if you are in any doubt as to what revolutionaries (in whatever era) signed up to then read the Democratic Programme and/or the 1916 Proclamation. No man nor beast could argue that any of these ideals were wrong.
Ask me do i think that SF has sold those ideals out then i’ll say yes, I firmly belive that.
you cannot support the rule of law one minute and then support terror the next
Posted by Traditional_Unionist on Jul 18, 2008 @ 11:41 AM
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
Maybe you’re a victim of media representation or had a Da who said ‘they were brought up to hate us’, either way you’re a victim and a product of British policy to devide and conquer. Therefore, you have only my sympathy Cynic.
Ah that’s it, and there was me, too thick to notice that! Thanks for the sympathy….. but I will pass on that and again refer you to the facts:-
* who killed the majority of Catholics in the Troubles? PIRA
* who murdered children and women – PIRA as well as some of the Loyalists
* who ‘disappeared’ innocent people who were simply suspected of some ill defined form of collusion? PIRA
Difficult to swallow (or live with) I know but never mind. You are one of the keepers of the true idealism. Or is it just a cult of violence?
Posted by cynic on Jul 19, 2008 @ 08:26 AM
Put bluntly how dare you lump in people like Henry Joy McCracken and the United Irishmen in with the murdering scum who killed over 2000 fellow Irishmen including many women and children.
I don’t know muck about HJ McCracken. Did he use violence to try to kick the English out of Ireland?
^
|
muck should be much
Dead on,
Like it or not, there is a Republican Sociailist Ideology and whether you want to hear it or not, this is was drives people on towards this. I am not going to bite your sectarian biscuit no matter how mcuh you try.
Answer this, what type of a world would you like to live in. A detailed answer will be sufficient.
So many ologies………. but never mind…… they beat having to think dont they
Always remember though, the fact that you belong to a religous or political cult doesnt make the ideology of that cult right. Nor does it justify the slaughter of your fellow citizens (from whatever side) in pursuit of it.
People may be republcian if they want. They may be socialist. They have the right to be what they want to be, up to the point where they stop trying to persuade and start to use force on others or murder those they define as their opponents.
Now where is the sectarianism in that? Or are you arguing that because the Republican Movement murdered more Catholics than anyone else they were by definition, non-sectarian?
Traditional Unionist
“Can you explain to me how exactly you have saw any lodge of the Orange Order with “loyalist terrorist” banners?
I can tell you now that is simply not true and you know it”
The OO parade in Ardoyne had a banner commemorating UVF terrorist Sam Rocket – this is not the first time this has happened.
There was an OO banner on the Shankill commemorating UVF terrorist Brian Robinson.
There were banners at parades in central Belfast commemorating “loyalist” sectarian terrorists Joe Bratty and Noel Kinnear.
There was another banner on the Shankill commemorating UVF “loyalist” terrorist Aubrey Reid.
In all these cases, these banners have been carried for some years and the OO “leadership” have done nothing.
All this information is freely available on the internet.
The OO and it’s supporters must think people are really stupid. Denials like yours are laughable when, with the advent of the internet, 24×7 news and much more impartial reporting from the North, they are so easily disproved.
It’s like the OO denying that their members intimidated Catholics attending Mass at Harryville when TV pictures clearly showed thugs in OO collarettes doing just that.
We had the incredibly pathetic OO “leadership” denying that their members attacked police at Whiterock when TV pictures showed them clearly doing so. We had the added bonus of a senior OO “leader” coming on TV and openly condoing these attacks.
The OO ‘Leadership” denials of their members riotiong at Drumcree and mixing with known “loyalist” terrorists were shown to be bare faced lies by the TV coverage.
The Bottom line is simple – the OO has been completely exposed for it’s completely hypocritical approach to “loyalist” terrorism.
Whether you admit it or not, it’s public image is woeful and the so-called efforts of the OO “leadership to improve it have been laughable.
OO “leaders” have done nothing about dealing with past + present “loyalist” terrorists in their ranks nor have they taken any action against lodges with banners and/or bands commemorating “loyalist” terrorsists.
The examples I cited above, which have been going on for years, clearly illustrate that the OO “leadership” is unwilling or unable to deal with OO support for “loyalist” terrorism.
When will they (and you) learn that simply repeating pathetic denials every year – that are then simply disproved will achieve nothing?
Frankly, I doubt that the will exists among the OO to sever these links with “loyalist” terrorism.
If + when they are willing to do so – and can prove it with clear action, their position may improve.
However, if they want to keep repeating the same easily disproved lies every year, their public perception will stay at rock bottom and they will make no progress at all.
But you see Cynic, you are missing the point when you say that the PIRA were sectarian. Secularism is a major ideal in the Republican Socialist Ideology so it doesn’t matter what religion that you are. I understand and accepted that there were many needless deaths and innocent bystanders and victims. On top of this there were some atrocities that i certainly was not proud of. Some of the examples that you gave were accidents (referring to the bombs exploding on the Shankill road aimed at wiping out Drugs dealers from the Loyalist Paramilitaries (including Johnny Adair and the rest of his gang).
I accept that there were many many needless deaths, but this happens in war. Tell me a war where there were no civilian casualties? It’s horrible for everyone that this happened but my point is that these people did not go out on operations with the ‘yabba dabba do’ mindset that is so often affiliated with Loyalist paramiliataries. My point is that these people were ideologically driven to removing the occupying force whose policies were responsible for sectarianism, injustice, collusion and crimes against working class people from both sides.
The points that I was making in between times was that Sinn Féin in my view have betrayed every victim of the war and not only the Republican Patriot dead. They are now part of the status quo and are advocating the same anti-working class politics that many of the enemies of Republicanism tried to do over the years.
But my question to you is this (because I’m sure that we can find a lot of common ground and so that hopefully you will begin to learn that there is no threat to Unionists in the Republican Socialist Ideology), what type of country would you like to live in? Would you like to have a country where there is peace but yet, hundreds of thousands are living below the poverty line? Would you like to maintain that if you have more money, you can get better and quicker health care or a better education? Would you like there to be more suicides in North and West Belfast than anywhere else in the “UK”? (have to use that term because that’s where the statistics were got).
You see i wouldn’t, i’d like a classless world where everyone is given the same opportunities regardless of race, creed, religion and that is what revolutionaries from Tone to Connolly to Bobby Sands and more fought for.
Now pleae try to leave your anger at Republicans aside and see if you can live with these ideals? If you think they’re worthwhile then we agree and if you don’t then you are part of the establishment and status quo that have forsaken Irish people from all backgrounds.
I’ll leave you with this nice quote from Stokely Carmichael from the Black Panthers that sums up what i’ve just said.
“There’s a difference between peace and liberation. You can still have injustice and have peace. You can have peace and still be enslaved. So peace isn’t the answer, liberation is the answer. There will be no peace until everyone is equal.” Stokely Carmichael.
Can anybody clarify if the GAA actually did organise this competition, or more likely, was it an unofficial competition organsied by the club concerned?
If the club did in fact apply for the competition to be officially recognised, did they make clear that the competition was part of a political commemoration?
“Secularism is a major ideal in the Republican Socialist Ideology so it doesn’t matter what religion that you are.”
…..oh yeah….so did anyone ever tell the membership / sign up to that?
“I understand and accepted that there were many needless deaths”
…… your ‘acceptance’ will be comforting, I am sure
“Some of the examples that you gave were accidents (referring to the bombs exploding on the Shankill road”
…. the only accident on the Shankill Road was that the fuse was so short that even the bombers couldnt get away, the target was Adair but there was no intention not to kill the shoppers.
“You see I wouldn’t, i’d like a classless world where everyone is given the same opportunities regardless of race, creed, religion”
….agree on the opportunity issue but you will never ever get a classless world. Some are born to lead, others are happy to follow. There has never been a truely classless society, nor I suspect, will there be. Its a utopian dream – or possibly nightmare
“Now pleae try to leave your anger at Republicans aside ”
….read my posts. I am not just angry at Republicans. I believe that where you have a political route open to argue your case, murdering people in whatever cause you believe is fundamentally wrong no matter who you are or what the cause is. Again, I must say, it seems to me that you want to impoise your definition of libery on everyone. And that is just anotehr version of oppression.
Alright, i’ve tried – you’re clearly so bitter that you cannot see beyond your nose. Your point about others born to lead and others born to follow is ridiculous. What you outlined is the product of living in a non-participatory, every man for themselves capitalist world and am I so wrong to believe in a different one??
You can choose to be part of the status quo and to side with the powerful against the powerless but i won’t. Let’s hope for the hundreds and thousands of disadvantaged people being affected by poverty that you’re wrong.
“Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one’s self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all.”
However, it is my opinion that 99% of members in armed struggle were for the decolonialisation of the country, were non-sectarian, were at war with the British and their infrastructure in Ireland.
Posted by An tUdar on Jul 18, 2008 @ 04:46 PM…………………………………………
You need your head seen to. If anything 99% of the PIRA/INLA and the other splinter gangs were sectarian, pure and simple. That might of been a by-product of their hatred for “The Brits”, but that’s not the point, they still hated “The Prods” who happened to be British too in case you forgot!
Garibaldy,
The contrasts between British values in Britan and ‘British values’ in Northern Ireland is indeed lost on many.
Posted by ggn on Jul 18, 2008 @ 06:35 PM
It surely is.
Posted by Garibaldy on Jul 18, 2008 @ 06:40 PM…………………………………………
Why don’t the two of you get a room and take your flirting somewhere else so we can concentrate on attempting to address the serious subject at hand!
you cannot support the rule of law one minute and then support terror the next
Posted by Traditional_Unionist on Jul 18, 2008 @ 11:41 AM
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
Posted by POL on Jul 19, 2008 @ 03:49 PM…………………………………………
A republican who kills a person because of their religion or nationality is a bigot, not a freedom fighter. I call a spade a spade…
Fair Deal,
unless you have proof that the competition was actually organised or sanctioned by the GAA, the follwing phrase
[i]The parade followed a GAA football competition[/i]
should actually read
[i]The parade followed a gaelic football competition[/i]
The distinction is important, for without it there would be a false implication that the GAA as an organisation sanctioned this event.
I’d say that its more likely that the shinners organised this, not the GAA.
Any word on the teams that took part?
My bet is that they weren’t official GAA teams.
I can’t see any team comprised of at least some SDLP supporters having anything to do with this.
It would almost certainly break the GAA’s rules on being non-political.