Hate Crime on Display?
The front page of today’s Irish News has a photograph of the ‘Union Jack Souvenir Shop’ on Belfast’s Newtownards Road yesterday. For sale in the shop is the Irish Tricolour for £5, obviously for burning at Belfast City Council-sponsored bonfires and other less ‘well-maintained’ gatherings throughout loyalist Belfast and beyond on the 11th Night. But the label attached to the flags by the helpful proprietor kind of sums up just why the ridiculous efforts to brand the 11th/12th as potentially an all inclusive celebration and gathering are doomed to failure: “FENIAN FLAGS TO BURN £5.”
Of course, as I’ve stated before at considerable length, there is nothing wrong with the 11th/12th remaining a celebration primarily/ exclusively celebrated by unionists/ protestants. But there should be no place for wilful displays of incitement to hatred in the form of flag burning, which clearly only reinforces crude sectarian mindsets like those responsible for this sign.
I agree with Willowfield, a successful prosecution is very unlikely given the circumstances of this case. It could be argued that the good shopkeeper is simply naming and shaming a couple of flags caught conspiring to burn £5. Most likely they were hopng to quietly dispose of the Northern Bank loot amidst the north’s greatest outpouring of art and culture.
How good it is to see the national flag on the Newtonards Road.
Could this be a clever marketing ploy by some shopkeeper inspired by the “The Apprentice” TV programme and misled into a bad purchase by the many visits of the good “Dr” IKP to the site of the Battle of the Boyne with his old buddy Bertie.
From what i’m told there was no sign saying Fenian Flags to burn.
My information
is also hear’Say
Why all the fuss over Northern Irish Loyalism’s expression of high culture?
Word to the wise… leave the apes to fight over the last banana… the rest of us will be across the border (including middle class unionists)
Both sides are as bad as eachother – really?
I agree picador, the Loyal Sons on the Newtownards Road SHOULD get used to the flag of the Irish nation flying there. In a few years it will be the normal thing anyway when the island unites. Anyone know a good spot for the Republican Garden of Remembrance in East Belfast when the inevitable comes? What about Dee St. or the junction of the Newtownards & Albertbridge Roads. Indeed Stormont would be ideal for another replica of the Garden Of Remembrance that lies at the top of Parnell Street, in our capital Dublin? PS I wonder what Brigadier McDonald makes of his fellow Loyalists burning the flag of his Presidential buddy Mary McAleese and golfing partner Martin. Mmmmmmmmm! Well Jackie??
Given Sinn Fein’s endless retailing of sectarian artifacts glorifying murder for the last 40 years I dont think any of their syncophants on this site should gern too much or act the innocent.
the shop by the way is not owned by the OO so I see no reason to blame them. It is like blaming the SDLP for Sinn Fein’s extremly tasteless ‘bookshop’
The Orange is in the ticolour can be said to represent protestants/unionists in the same way the embedded St Patrick’s cross in the Union Flag represents Irishness…
The reality is that the orange in the tricolour is a nationalist definition of protestant/orange/unionist and the St Patrick’s flag within the Union Flag is a British definition of Irishness.
Neither definition bears any relation to the people who feel it most……
Ach sure its the only day of the year they have I suppose. I mean, if it helps the Loyalist community forget, at least for one day, that they have no future, no prospects and no say in the north anymore, then let them have there fun day with Diamond Dan! When the bonfires have died and the sun begins to rise, they will all be nursing their hangovers, as they slowly begin to realise that theres no food in the fridge cos the dole isn’t till thursday, wee Billy is still inside doing time cos he got caught selling class A’s and wee Sammy, bless him, has no job to go to because the shipyard has been closed these many years and he doesn’t even have a GCSE to his name. In fact he can’t even spell his own name God help him. But sure the 12th is only another year away, I can’t wait. Can you?
The average ‘loyalist’ bonfire attender is (as we have all known for some time now) a pointless piece of human sewage. That much is self-evident and no-longer worthy of much in the way of comment. What IS more significant, in my view, is the activities of this ‘Union Jack Shop’ kip on the Newtownards Road. The vile owners of this dump have been committing offences under the Terrorism Act 2000 for the last eight years.
Section 13 of the Act provides that –
“(1) A person in a public place commits an offence if he—
(a)wears an item of clothing, or
(b)wears, carries or displays an article,
in such a way or in such circumstances as to arouse reasonable suspicion that he is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation.”
Given this provision, how in the name of fuck do these scum continue to get away with openly selling this:-
http://www.unionjackshop.com/product_info.php?id=129
this:-
http://www.unionjackshop.com/product_info.php?id=275
this:-
http://www.unionjackshop.com/product_info.php?id=198
this:-
http://www.unionjackshop.com/product_info.php?id=163
this:-
http://www.unionjackshop.com/product_info.php?id=130
this:-
http://www.unionjackshop.com/product_info.php?id=129
this:-
http://www.unionjackshop.com/product_info.php?id=120
this:-
http://www.unionjackshop.com/product_info.php?id=50
this:-
http://www.unionjackshop.com/product_info.php?id=352
this:-
http://www.unionjackshop.com/product_info.php?id=353
this:-
http://www.unionjackshop.com/product_info.php?id=319
?????????
I could go on but you get the flavour of the place. This dump should be raided by the cops, the wank-pots running the place arrested and the reams of terrorist paraphernalia on the premises seized and destroyed. What do the various political representatives of East Belfast have to say about the fact that some shower of cunts are running a terrorist shop in the heart of their constituency? What do the cops have to say about it? These vermin should be put out of business forthwith.
Bemused,
Agreed!
P.S. Before the usual selection of whataboutery merchants pile-in – yes, if there are similar shops selling IRA/CIRA/RIRA/INLA etc. merchandise then they should be shut-down and their operators arrested immediately. Seriously though folks, this ‘Union Jack Shop’ is just outrageous – why on earth are the police tolerating this? Anyone?
Aaah, at last, a thread about flags!
There’s sure to be some progressive intellectual emotion-free debate now….
Can we have one about anthems soon?
Someone wearing an IRA shirt can just claim he is glorifying the freedom fighters of the 1920s.
However, if he has on a Provisional Irish Republican Army shirt on could he be prosecuted for anything?
Someone wearing a british army t-shirt could be seen to support collusion with murder gangs throughout Ulster, putting aside all other atrocities committed by that group over time.
But, as a great man once said…”The state calls its own violence law, but that of the individual, crime”
or
“To offend, to oppress, to despoil, to plunder, to assassinate or enslave one’s fellowman is ordinarily regarded as a crime. In public life, on the other hand, from the standpoint of patriotism, when these things are done for the greater glory of the State, for the preservation or the extension of its power, it is all transformed into duty and virtue”
As I recall a few years ago there was an attempt made in the United States to make burning the US flag a criminal offence, most people who believe in civil liberties considered this to be an outrageous restriction on the expression of opinion. I happen to agree with that opinion.
If someone sells or purchases a piece of coloured nylon that is their business, if the purchaser then chooses to destroy their newly purchased possession that is also their business and the peelers can get stuffed.
The same applies to religious tracts that they also may purchase and wipe their arses with if they so desire.
Stop demanding that free expression be made a criminal offence or some day you will discover that Plod is fingering your collar for your thought crime.
Never mind the flags Harry – what about the patently illegal and criminal tat that these vermin are peddling?
A hate crime? Catch yourself on and stop rolling about in the dirt together playing these silly little political games.
I agree with Harry!!!!!
WOW – still rocking from the shock of that realisaton.
As for the rest of their wares in this loyal little shop – shitey old tat sold to dickheads with too much money and too little sense. Never mind the content, did you look at those prices – SCANDALOUS!
“if it helps the Loyalist community forget, at least for one day, that they have no future, no prospects and no say in the north anymore, then let them have there fun day with Diamond” Dan! “slowly begin to realise that theres no food in the fridge cos the dole isn’t till thursday, wee Billy is still inside doing time cos he got caught selling class A’s and wee Sammy, bless him, has no job to go to because the shipyard has been closed these many years and he doesn’t even have a GCSE to his name.”
FFS – I despise the 12th myself Quagmire and always have – but I must admit that as a Prod after reading your ridiculously bigoted musings I actually hope every Orange band and Lodge in the land go out of their way to make a special tour round your street 4 times or so on Saturday afternoon – I’d love to see your oul purple bake frothing at the mouth……
Harry – true, but rude to say the least … and audacious at that! However, while we have people “down here” in Cork that will get all hot-and-bothered about the flying of the UK flag outside city hall to honour John Major then it’s hardly surprising that “up there” in Belfast you’ll have enterprising folk selling their nylon counterparts as tender for a bonfire.
They might only be pieces of nylon but we’ve both really got to grow a little self-confidence to celebrate our own things without having to exorcise the other’s.
This “hate crime” business really is a stroke of genius. After all, why go to the trouble of lobotomizing the people when you can get the people to put all their time and energy into lobotomizing each other?
Clearly, both communities are united by their stupidity.
blandy: “It is like blaming the SDLP for Sinn Fein’s extremly tasteless ‘bookshop’ “
Why did you put bookshop in commas there? It does actually sell books afterall.
tsk tsk
what’s the world coming to when young loyalists have to go to a shop and buy flags to burn? In my day you did the manly thing and went to themmuns’ territory and nicked them. That’s the trouble- standards nowadays is slippin something shocking…..
Stupidity United
Will never be defeated
[b]Bemused[/b]
“[i]The average ‘loyalist’ bonfire attender is (as we have all known for some time now) a pointless piece of human sewage. That much is self-evident and no-longer worthy of much in the way of comment. What IS more significant, in my view, is the activities of this ‘Union Jack Shop’ kip on the Newtownards Road. The vile owners of this dump have been committing offences under the Terrorism Act 2000 for the last eight years.”[/i]
You’ve got some nerve on yea calling the average bonfire attender human sewage. 1/4 of N.Ireland’s population voted for IRA murderers, yet you see innocent people watching a bonfire as the sewage?
This shop has been in the news on a number of occasions over the last few years.
I recall the controversy over Glentoran football club using the shop as an outlet for selling match tickets eventhough it sold a vast array of terrorist merchandise.
Its also an outlet for selling Northern Ireland football flags and other items, and probably explains why the football flags are flown alongside terrorist flags during the 12th period.
The shop was also in the news for selling ‘ any taig will do’ t-shirts & selling banners of Hitler’s notorious Waffen SS Death’s Head
(Totenkopf) division.
Trading standards officers raided the outlet a few years ago when they falsely claimed to be an ‘official’ stockist of Glasgow Rangers merchandise.
It hit the headlines again when complaints were made about the shop selling terrorist christmas cards. The cards include images of Santa Claus holding a UVF ‘For God and Ulster’ plaque and a holly-bedecked UFF fist sending seasonal greetings ‘from the Elite’.
A spokesman from the shop at the time claimed the profit from the paramilitary cards were going towards a party for the kids from Cluan Place.
I wonder is the siege of Drumcree medal a big seller among the brethren?
http://www.unionjackshop.com/product_info.php?id=317
I wonder why the RUC removed 30 Loyalist flags from a bonfire in Lurgan 20 years ago and in the process of erecting ladders for the removal injured a number of kids, they also enjoyed raiding homes for said flags.
How could kids get injured by the peelers erecting ladders?
Anyway, it’s a good job we’ve got rid of the old RUC then, isn’t it.
Kids playing in and around the pyre?
Point being would they be so forceful at a Loyalist bonfire who glorify in the murder/death of kids?
Thanks for that product info, bemused. I just bought a Red Hand Commando woolly hat for a fiver. When I’m home for Xmas I’ll wear it to a Cliftonville match and see how long it takes someone to notice.
btw I just had a magic idea. Why not hold the bonie at the Union Jack? Think about it – everyone’s a winner!
I’m sure the queen loves this shop just like she loves every little son of “ulster” – well apart from them fenians and that other bit of ulster that is ulster but not really ulster as in “for god and ulster”, like the fenian ulster. Aye thats it, the fenian ulster, the one in Eire.
She must be so proud tho all the same. The shop and its customers are a credit to their nation I’m sure.
Thank the sky god I got an irish pasport.
I stand by my comments Ulster’s….I’ve yet to see anything to persuade me that the average bonfire-attender is anything other than a pointless, sponging, oxygen-thieving turd. Your attempt to draw an analogy with these pond-life and Sinn Feinn voters (whilst having some limited merit) – is pretty lame. Yes, a substantial number of Sinn Feinn voters are layabout, neanderthal scum. That said, I know from personal experience that a very large number of them (I do not and never have voted for Sinn Feinn – before you get all excited) are intelligent, articulate, perceptive and hard-working people. How many intelligent, articulate, percetive and hard-working people did you last see shouting “Yeeeooohhhhhhh” as they bray at the burning of a flag and suck on bottles of nuclear coloured cat’s piss?
Mercifully (as evidenced by the increasing number of commercial concerns who are now opening over the twelfth ‘holiday’ and the increasing number of Councils who are now removing public funding for the ‘festival’ and compelling the scum involved to at least adhere to the bare modicum of applicable legal standards) the grubby little bile, piss and vomit-fest is starting to go the way of asbestos roofs, the dodo and jokes about ‘darkies’. As ever, most non-scum who can afford to will quietly leave the ‘province’ during the ‘celebrations’. Hoefullly once the EU and central government put an end to the ‘bonefire’ abomination of the eleventh night on environmental grounds then more and more people will stay, more and more businesses will stay open, more and more of the verminous orange filth will die off and the entire grubby, offensive, disruptive, pointless, hate-filled, stupid little spectacle will eventually be consigned to the dustbins of all our histories. In the meantime – do enjoy yourself over the ‘festival’ and please drink as much blue WKD and as much condemned deep-fried kazhakstani camel burgers as you can – there’s a good lad….
Hey ….anyone tell me what K.A.T. on the tri-colours mean atop of the bonfires?
Go on, tell us UMH!
Just a guess, but does it mean ‘Kiss All Taigs’ by any chance?
What’s a ‘Taig’ in any way?
“tsk tsk
what’s the world coming to when young loyalists have to go to a shop and buy flags to burn? In my day you did the manly thing and went to themmuns’ territory and nicked them. That’s the trouble- standards nowadays is slippin something shocking…..”
Darth, less of that please, There’ll be no ‘Tom Foolery’ here…. of what you did in the past!
With the 12th this Saturday, I hope you are reviewing your ‘Qualifications’.
Clean and pure thoughts please!
Jesus is looking on!
Bemused
“[i]I stand by my comments Ulster’s….I’ve yet to see anything to persuade me that the average bonfire-attender is anything other than a pointless, sponging, oxygen-thieving turd.”[/i]
What makes you so privileged to belittle people of all ages just because they attend a bonfire? With a comment like that I would hazard a guess you’re a middle class socialite who desperately yearns to be upper class, but you just don’t cut it.
Greagoir O Frainclin
“[i]Hey ….anyone tell me what K.A.T. on the tri-colours mean atop of the bonfires?
Go on, tell us UMH!
Just a guess, but does it mean ‘Kiss All Taigs’ by any chance?
What’s a ‘Taig’ in any way? “[/i]
It’s hardly a surprise that K.A.T. has been placed on some bonfires, when all these people here is their deputy first minister declaring he would have killed all British soldiers and doesn’t apologise for any of his actions over the troubles.
How on earth can you expect to educate the youth against sectarianism when McGuinness is allowed to support the murder of British troops from his position in Stormont?
An American flag was burnt outside the gates of Stormont during Bush’s recent visit incidentally.
Evidence quoting the Newsletter
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/88013
“How on earth can you expect to educate the youth against sectarianism when McGuinness is allowed to support the murder of British troops from his position in Stormont?”
Does McGuinness still hold this view? I thought he was a changed man! He doesn’t now does he?
BTW, McGuinness was ‘a youth’ one time too UMH. In his formative and impressionable young years he became a member of the IRA. Why was that UMH?
What made him become that?
BEMUSED, so you won’t change your mind about putting a couple of deckchairs up on Royal Avenue on Saturday?………. only kidding there!
I took my overseas uncle to watch the ‘Twelfth’ in Belfast two years ago (he wanted to go). I seen this as a chance to witness Orangefest and experience some of this Ulster Scots tradition I keep hearing about. We stood at the side of the City Hall and just watched. We are ‘themmins’ so I was convinced we were giving off ‘Fenian signals’ and would be pounced on any minute. We stayed 20 minutes and it was truly an eye opener. The first thing that hits you is the industrial sized amounts of alcohol being knocked back from teeny boppers to old grannies. 24 packs of beer were stacked up 5 or 6 high and there were boxes of litre bottles of vodka sitting on top of each other. Spectators and marchers were downing it by the bucketload and pissing and puking all over the place. This didn’t seem to annoy the cops who let it all pass without comment or application of by-laws NOR the senior Orangemen and members who seemed to accept the boozing and bad behaviour as part of the normal spectacle.
The standard uniform was Union Jack/Red Hand of Ulster hats, flags, babybibs, umbrellas etc. That was only for those sitting down. Many were following certain bands and most of these ‘supporters’ were adorned with UVF/UDA/UFF paraphanalia depending on which Loyalist group the band was affiliated to. There were fights & arguements going on between opposing Uncle Andy, Big Mervyn & Red Hand Luke types right along Bedford Street. You would have been forgiven for thinking that ‘Give My Head Peace’ WITH MALICE was being filmed AND DA & MA were going to jump out at anytime. We also witnessed a large banner in memory of a dead Loyalist terrorist being carried by a Scottish band AND a well known Loyalist spokesperson parading in a Lodge. I should also say that there were many bands with NO paramilitary trappings who just seemed to be there for the music and parade. There were some floats with dancers and musicians there too.
At the City Hall the parade stopped so a wreath could be laid at the Cenotaph. This was the really surreal part. Here was the Orange Order laying wreaths while it’s parade was stuffed full of terrorist worshippers and bands pledging loyalty to the killers of innocent Catholics & Protestants. The same Orange Order that refuses to talk to Sinn Fein or local residents. It was like a bad Monty Python sketch. At this point we left with the whiff of stale drink and piss wafting through the air. We got talking to some Swedish tourists who said it was a ‘smelly, dirty, aggressive, military march’ that had NO resonance of what they interpreted a festival as. They TOO walked away disgusted at the kids abusing alcohol and falling all over the place in front of the PSNI AND signs banning the consumption of drink. I would reckon however if you are a tattoist, jeweller or hairdresser at this time of year you are elected and must be coining it in. The amount of Bulldog tattos, sovereign rings & necklaces AND bleached blonde hair would blind you AND that’s only the blokes. If this is culture my name is Johan and I am a Dutch cheesemaker.
Coming to the debate very late again but it would seem to me that the term “Fenian” is to an Irish Catholic what the term “Nigger” is to an African American.
Therefore, I would not so much be looking at the flag burning issue but more at the racist terms used in the display. I would think there is a case to answer under your current legislation as listed above.
This is exactly the type of sectarian behaviour which your society needs to challange at every turn until people realize it is not only socially unacceptable but is also a crime. It will not end until society challenges it, surely you don’t want the next generation to also think this type of thing is “just the way it is here”?
McGuinness did say he had no problem killing every British soldier in Ireland, at the time, he felt that way, not now though. He did not say he would kill ALL British people, or ALL protestants. Defeating an army through war is one thing, but killing all Catholics (KAT) seems a little different, especially in this time of relative peace. Anyone agree?
A few years ago the same area had in huge letters on a gable wall, ‘Short Strand Taigs Off Our Road’. So by comparison this is small beer really, and hardly surprising.
We can only hope they replace the bonfires with black monoliths at some point.
@USA
The term genuinely isn’t racist though. Unless we’re going to include terms like “redneck” or “bible basher” as terms inciting racial hatred I don’t see that fenian can be included. Fenian as used is a term denoting a particular background, world view about national borders and religious beliefs, though more general religious background than actual devoutness. When it is used the speaker is certainly not thinking about DNA, or descent or physical features.
If Nick Griffin was found not guilty for using the word “asian” in an extremely provactive manner, but where it was clear in context that he specifically meant Muslim I can’t see how fenian could fall under racial hatred.
Incitement to x hatred is an unjust and illiberal law anyway, whatever x is.
@equal
Yes, but who is saying KAT? It’s a phrase almost entirely the province of graffiti artists, and in Belfast at the moment KAH is approaching the same degree of frequency as graffitied on walls as KAT is. Graffiti artists are by definition criminals and are hardly to be expected to be decorous and politically correct. You can hardly judge unionists by their graffiti artists and even if we did nationalists would have to be tarred with the same brush in that case.
There’s a bit of a difference between McGuinness supporting killing all soldiers and some graffiti artist writing KAH just as there would be a difference between Ian Paisley supporting the killing of all members of the Republican movements and some graffiti artist writing KAT. Context, context.
[b]equal[/b]
[i]“McGuinness did say he had no problem killing every British soldier in Ireland, at the time, he felt that way, not now though.”[/i]
When did he change his mind? Let me remind you he came out with that statement this year.
“[i]He did not say he would kill ALL British people, or ALL protestants.”[/i]
Has he condemned the IRA Green Book which he uses as his guide book? it states:
“The enemy, generally speaking, are all those opposed to our short-term or long-term objectives……But with the possible exceptions of the Brit Ministers in the ‘Northern Ireland Office’ and certain members of the judiciary, the overtly unarmed branches of the establishment are not so clearly identifiable to the people as our enemies as say armed Brits or R.U.C.”
You would swear the Roman Catholic church had a hand in writing this, it’s so vague in it’s definition?
it goes on to say:
“Execution, as earlier stated is not the only way of making this category of establishment enemy ineffective: we can variously expose them as liars, hypocrites, collaborators, make them subjects of ridicule etc.
The strategy is:
1. A War of attrition against enemy personnel which is aimed at causing as many casualties and deaths as possible so as to create a demand from their people at home for their withdrawal.
2. A bombing campaign aimed at making the enemy’s financial interest in our country unprofitable while at the same time curbing long term financial investment in our country.
3. To make the Six Counties as at present and for the past several years ungovernable except by colonial military rule.
4. To sustain the war and gain support for its end by National and International propaganda and publicity campaigns.
5. By defending the war of liberation by punishing criminals, collaborators and informers.”
is it any wonder the IRA Army Council has to be decommissioned? Once it’s gone and McGuinness ceases to stop supporting the murder of Brits, we might just be able to curb the sectarianism that our country faces.
“Darth, less of that please, There’ll be no ‘Tom Foolery’ here…. of what you did in the past!
With the 12th this Saturday, I hope you are reviewing your ‘Qualifications’.
Clean and pure thoughts please!
”
Gregoir- sorry if my irony filter was a bit off
kilter. For what it’s worth I have never been at a bonfire on the 11th night because like most orangemen of my acquaintance I’m busy- sorting the collection boxes for the orphans’ society, polishing the shoes, making the arrangements for the bus, appointing banner carriers etc. If we’re hosting the demo we have to get the field ready- portaloos, litter bins , pa systems etc.
I suspect most active orangemen carry put similar tasks. I don’t like the idea of burning flags, and I don’t like shops that sell paramilitary stuff. I don’t like pensioners wondering if their gable will catch fire, or asthmatice inhaling burning tyre fumes. I wouldn’t go if I had the time, nor would most of the rural orangemen I know
Never having seen the Belfast parade I can’t demur from Lurig’s observations. But the working classes enjoying themselves is never a sight for the delicate- whether it be on Ibiza, at Hampden park or down Royal Avenue. of course there’s too much drinking, and of course our useless police do nothing about it. To paraphrase Thatcher ” A spide is a spide is a spide”
The truth is that such low level anti-social behaviour has continued for generations, and the only body capable of improving it is the orange institution, since it alone has the moral authority over the 12th. And we are slowly improving things, but we need the help of the authorities, and the community at large. The disappearance of odious paramilitary flags this year is a welcome, if small development, which came about because our community objected to it.
Perhaps we should all lower our sights and try to manage sectarianism while it exists. Hardly a noble goal, but much more practical than turning your back on it and letting it fester?
Bravo Darth – but that more of your brethern were like you……