Chinese dragon bad, alcohol/sectarian slogans/ flag burning ?????
Today’s Newsletter carries a report in which Rev. Stephen Dickinson objects to the presence of a chinese dragon as part of the proposed 11th Night parade in Tandragee, labelling it as “offensive” and “insults the name of Jesus Christ.” The story carried over onto the Talkback programme today, when the Rev. Dickinson further elaborated on his objections, arguing that the dragon represented a drift into including ‘pagan’ elements within the Twelfth. Taken at face value, the Rev. Dickinson’s objections could have been understood from the position of a religious figure not wanting what he believes is a celebration of protestantism to be further diminished in the same way that many religious leaders of all faiths object to the materialist ‘hijacking’ of key dates in their religious calendars. At one stage he forcefully stated that “we need to put protestantism back into the Order.” However, his argument fell down badly when he skipped over the objections of a caller about what goes on at 11th Night bonfires. (Discussion about 39 mins into programme.) The incident is also an unfortunate reminder of earlier opposition from within loyalism to the chinese community.
Prentice,
Your argument equates nationalism with the Republic of Ireland. Irish nationalists may well desire the reunification of Ireland but the RoI has made clear that it no longer lays any territorial claim to the north. Burning your neighbours flag in this context is unnecessarily provocative. Also you assume that every Irish nationalist has designs upon the North. This may not necessarily be the case. I know a number of people in the south who would discribe themselves as ‘nationalists’ but couldn’t give a damn any longer for unification. Their nationalism is expressed in a purely 26 county context, something I would have thought you would welcome. Granted, northern nationalist remain committed to a united but most have made clear their desire to pursue this through peaceful means. Again burn a tri-colour if you think it is justified by your neighbours’ peaceful and lawful intentions to argue for a united Ireland (that, as you quite rightly point out is loyalism’s perogative )but don’t be surprised that the rest of the world thinks that northern protestants are a strange and truculent bunch. Loyalism is entirely within its rights to burn a flag, the question it fails to ask itself is should it. Do its actions just bring it into greater disrepute (like the comments of the Rev. Dickinson).
Also, is national status really binary? You are entitled to hold both an Irish and UK passport. Many do and are comfortable with being British and Irish. You may consider Irishness and Britishness as mutual exclusive, although historically they haven’t always been and many are happy being both today (and some consider themselves neither while domiciled here).
What a pile ae shite, it is impossible to have territorial ambitions over land that is already yours, which has been temporarily misappropriated by somebody else. In this case Irish land by the *temporary* political unit that is GB.
But sure it is better to hide behind legalese.
Burning a flag is an aggressive statement, no matter how it is dressed or for whatever valid reason it is carried out.
Too damned right, Eoghan. Anybody caught burning the lovely Red Flag (after we’ve burnt all other flags) will be executed.
If, despite my ardent protestation, the world insists on having a tasteful portrait of Chairman Rory in the corner of the flag then they will be executed twice.
Chairman Rory through the ages, as he is now, or as he was then?
Atw i think you already exist in a vacuum
The people’s perception would probably tend towards the immutable, Garibaldy. But what do I know? You’ld have to ask them.
Consultation shall begin at once. Though of course, if you wish to let us know the decision in advance of the consultation (as is the norm these days), please do so.
The fact that these Sino fascists march with Orangies means they should go home. They are no addition to any community.
Dave
you seem to have siome self esteem issues that you vent by hating every one. Take a deep breath, relax and then take yourself off to the NHS for a wee rest. They have the loveliest close fitting jackets will keep you warm and secure
The real question no one has asked is why is Northern Ireland bring invaded by hords of orientals in the first place, hmmmmm?
Could it be something to do with the complete lack of immigration controls under Mr. Broon?……
The incident is also an unfortunate reminder of earlier opposition from within loyalism to the chinese community.
Donnelly……………………………………
“This incident” didn’t remind me of anything. Once again you’ve taken it upon yourself to make a biased, prejudiced case against Loyalists. I am an active member of Ulster’s Band Culture yet I didn’t even hear about Pride Of The Raven being banned from walking along The Pass in case, allegedly, they would “intimidate” members of the Chinese community. Why would they be parading in November of last year anyway?
You’ve attempted to portray the memebership of Pride Of The Raven Flute Band as racist throwbacks with your link, whilst making a thinly-veiled attack on Rev. Dickinson and his beliefs, when the problem the Minister had with the Chinese Dragon was with the pagan symbolism, not with the Chinese community and the colour of their skin.
Your attempts at political point-scoring and trying to beat the Loyalist community with the racist stick, completely overshadow your whole thread, which could have been a good discussion. You’ve got your own agenda Donnelly and I believe you’re abusing your position as a Moderator to endlessly attack my community…
The point I was making about the parade in November of last year, is that it was so low-profile and such a non-event that I’m surprised anyone not involved directly remembers anything about it! What was the protest parade against? One of Anna Lo’s policies or something she said about Pride Of The Raven F.B? What exactly, Donnelly? You need to make these things clearer if you’re going to use thses links to prove us Huns are all racists….
Does he have a problem with the pagan white horse?
Prionsa Eoghan: In this case Irish land by the *temporary* political unit that is GB.
All political units are temporary, and neither Ireland nor GB are political units. You also seem to have a slight confusion between the notions of ownership of land and sovereignty. You could own every acre of land in NI, but it would still be part of the UK while a majority of the voters who live here want it to be. That isn’t misappropriation.
And, when you refer to hiding behind ‘legalese’, is that the present constitution of the Republic of Ireland that you are dismissing?
The real question no one has asked is why is Northern Ireland bring invaded by hords of orientals in the first place, hmmmmm?
Could it be something to do with the complete lack of immigration controls under Mr. Broon?……
Posted by David Vance on Jul 05, 2008 @ 07:34 PM
To feed the hords [sic] of other immigrants on the 11th and 12th nights?
CL
lol you have some very unlucky timing having followed the 2 daves. they destroyed your arguement before you had a chance to cast it before the great unwashed
you should look for some better comunications with the hicks before you try and portray unionism and the oo as poor misunderstood gentlemen.
davey vance tired of the sychophantic bum lickers on your own site?
Imagine the headlines:
REVEREND CAN’T STOP CHASING THE DRAGON SHOCK !!!
It’s enough to turn a man to drink.
One of Anna Lo’s policies or something she said about Pride Of The Raven F.B?
It was more along the lines of one of her constitutents couldn’t get to work . Anna wrote to George Spence and he complained because it put his safety at risk. It developed from there.
CL
lol you have some very unlucky timing having followed the 2 daves. they destroyed your arguement before you had a chance to cast it before the great unwashed
you should look for some better comunications with the hicks before you try and portray unionism and the oo as poor misunderstood gentlemen.
Posted by steve on Jul 05, 2008 @ 09:22 PM…………………………………………
By Dave O’Connell’s tone (“Orangies”) and his name (O’Connelll is an Irish Catholic name), it’s safe to say he’s not a member of the P.U.L. community.
So how exactly does his racism have any bearing on my community and my argument, as he comes from the RC/republican/nationalist community? He is not letting my community down in any way.
As for David Vance’s overt racism. I’m pretty sure it’s not the one-time Deputy Leader of the UK Unionist Party, who currently works as a political commentator. He may be a marginalised, intransigent cynic who belongs in the political dustbin with Allister and his TUV Party, but I don’t think that he would publish racist remarks like those attributed to him here. The most probable scenario is that it’s a republican troll trying to blacken his name.
The real question no one has asked is why is Northern Ireland bring invaded by hords of orientals in the first place, hmmmmm?
Could it be something to do with the complete lack of immigration controls under Mr. Broon?……
Posted by David Vance on Jul 05, 2008 @ 07:34 PM
Moderator, wakey wakey, or is racist claptrap allowed to be posted on this site willy nilly? Vance, you truly are a stain on the pillow case of humanity.
‘To feed the hords [sic] of other immigrants on the 11th and 12th nights? ‘
Classic…gold star, nearly coughed me cerveza over the keyboard.
One of Anna Lo’s policies or something she said about Pride Of The Raven F.B?
It was more along the lines of one of her constitutents couldn’t get to work . Anna wrote to George Spence and he complained because it put his safety at risk. It developed from there.
Posted by A Tangled Web on Jul 05, 2008 @ 09:29 PM…………………………………………
I understood by the link that one of the forms filled in by the band when they requested the parade, with George Spence’s name on it, had been handed over to Anna Lo. Why was it handed over to Lo in the first place? Surely that’s a breach of security and privacy laws by the Charades Commission?
Why did Lo need to know who filled in the paperwork for the prospective parade? Is it any wonder that Mr. Spence and the rest of the band were perturbed! If this information got into the wrong hands, i.e. republicans, Mr. Spence could be marked as a “legitimate target” because of his membership of a Loyalist Flute Band, the consequence being that his life could potentially be in danger.
As a nationalist I certainly do have objections to what Loyalist flute bands & the Orange Order stand for given their disgraceful history in the North. However I also accept that they exist and whether Mr Spence is in a band or not is irrelevant. In a so called democracy that is your right HOWEVER do yourselves a favour. Stay in those places where you are welcomed, appreciated and don’t offend people who DO take offence at your antics. I wouldn’t expect the Ancient Order of Hibernians or a Republican band to march down the Limestone Road or through Sandy Row. A prominant member of the Orange Order once stated that “if we are not allowed to march through Catholic areas you take away our whole point of being”. THAT is the crux of it, unless the Orange Order can offend ANY Catholic AND a Loyalist band can strut past a Catholic chapel there is NO sense in the parade. These organisations exist to offend, intimidate, display Protestant triumphalism and remind the Taigs of their place in ‘Our Wee Country’. In a normal society after the riots of 2005 on the Springfield road and the violence from Orange Order members the organisation should have been banned. It is a hateful, bigoted, sectarian sect entwined with Loyalist paramilitarism and full of Unionist death squad members. It allows banners lauding UVF & UDA members to be carried and bands linked to both these to accompany Lodges in it’s parades. THEN it has the hypocritical nonsense to demand that Sinn Fein apologises BEFORE it speaks to them. If the Orange Order spent every second from now to doomsday asking forgiveness for it’s actions and membership it STILL wouldn’t be enough.
Old Chinese proverb:
“Once David Vance put in a show thread no fun no more”.
“However I also accept that they exist and whether Mr Spence is in a band or not is irrelevant. In a so called democracy that is your right HOWEVER do yourselves a favour. Stay in those places where you are welcomed, appreciated and don’t offend people who DO take offence at your antics.”……”It is a hateful, bigoted, sectarian sect It allows banners lauding UVF & UDA members to be carried and bands linked to both these to accompany Lodges in it’s parades.”
LURIG………………………………………
“The Pride of The Raven Flute Band in no way is connected with, or supports any paramilitary or illegal organistarion.”
The band in question have this disclaimer on the homepage of their webiste: http://www.theravenfb.com/history.htm
Given that the vast majority of flute bands who are affiliated to or support the UDA/UFF or UVF/Red Hand, are proud of their links, it would be unusual then for a paramiltary-aligned band to make a statement like this on their website. Thus, and from my own knowledge of the band, I can quite comfidently state that The Raven are NOT “entwined with Loyalist paramilitarism and full of Unionist death squad members.”
As for your call for them to “stay in those places where you are welcomed”. Well, considering the fact that Donegall Pass is a staunchly Loyalist area, I’m sure that the overwhelming majority of people would welcome a band parade up the Pass. That’s why I’m stunned that the Charades Commission banned the parade in question from walking this route, particluarly when South Belfast Young Conquerors, a famous blood-and-thunder Flute Band, begin their annual parade in the Pass every year!
In recent years the Chinese and Polish population has risen considerably in the area. I don’t believe they are fearful of Ulster’s Band Culture. We are merely celebrating our heritage and promoting our pride in our country, so I don’t see any reason why they would want to oppose parades…
Concerned Loyalist,
I NEVER said ALL bands in Orange/Black/Purple parades WERE affiliated to Loyalist paramilitaries OR support them. However you must accept that MANY of them are and do pledge their allegiance to the either the UDA or UVF. I have actually witnessed July 12 Parades in Belfast City centre and have heard some of these bands openly shouting ‘UP THE UDA/UFF/UVF/RHC’ and whatever loyalty they hold between breaks in the music. I have also seen banners in honour of dead Ulster/Scottish Loyalist terrorists being openly paraded through the city on these marches. I CAN’T remember ANY of the Loyal Orders objecting to these open displays to Loyalist paramilitaries or refusing to parade because of it. I was once told by a Protestant friend that if you closed your eyes and threw a beer can on Carlise Circus on July 12 you would more than likely hit a Loyalist paramiltary. I would also say that I have seen some very good bands just playing music and who seem to be there just for that. However when the Orange Order comes out and lectures others about terrorism most of us choke on the downright hypocrisy. They brought havoc to the North of Ireland in 2005 when they threatened, intimidated and rioted after the Springfield Road. In a normal decent society they would be banned and prosecuted for hate crimes but because the British & Irish governments & the Parades Commission are afraid to confront them they get away with their nonsense.
Concerned Loyalist,
I think you may have misinterpreted my comments. When I said “(It)is entwined with Loyalist paramilitarism and full of Unionist death squad members” I was referring to the Orange Order as an organisation and NOT to the Pride of the Raven band. As I stated I accept that many bands have NO affiliation to these groups.
In a normal decent society they would be banned and prosecuted for hate crimes but because the British & Irish governments & the Parades Commission are afraid to confront them they get away with their nonsense.
Posted by LURIG on Jul 06, 2008 @ 03:12 AM
In NI, its hard to get arrested for murder! Even if you went to the police and confessed, you could later claim your wife’s third cousin was a paid informer, and all charges would be dropped. If you seek an end to OO and FB marches by some judicial mechanism you are dreaming and in fact such would only contribute to the motivation to continue the protest.
Endless attacks on OO lodges and indeed the Parades Commission are only adding fuel to the fire. I’m an advocate of mitigating the reason why OO and FB’s what to march in the first place. i.e. when the OO and associated FB’s just dont annoy people any longer, they wont have any reason to march. Example, when is the last time anyone seriously gave a fuck about an AOH march?
Maybe Fair Deal (or another reasonable Orangeman)can weigh in here with an answer / clarification. Many marches are organised by local flute bands and the management of the event is not necessarily associated with the local OO. My understanding is a local FB attends other FB events and according to how many other events that FB attends determines the reciprocity of their event. I think many are confused, most members of flute bands are not necessarily members of the OO, right?
Dave O’Connell, Concerned Loyalist and Pretence,
You guys are a dying breed, either out of touch with or unable to process the meaning of a pluralist and diverse 21st century society.
You are too entwined in the local tribalism of your immediate daily lives that you cannot see the bigger picture changing ever so slowly around you.
Okay, well actually Dave O’Connell is a raving nutter but the other two seem to be as narrow minded as the Minister on the show and his supporters, Orangeism is just soooo embarrising.
>>The real question no one has asked is why is Northern Ireland bring invaded by hords of orientals in the first place, hmmmmm?< <
Typical fascist hater, can't even spell right when indulging in favoured pastime.
Reader
>>You also seem to have a slight confusion between the notions of ownership of land and sovereignty.< <
Not confused at all, my piece was quite clear. The British state has temporary control of a piece of land that doesn't belong to them. Who owns the particular plots of land is out with the remit of my opinion in the first instance.
>>but it would still be part of the UK while a majority of the voters who live here want it to be. That isn’t misappropriation.< <
Perhaps you missed the various invasions reader? Even if the people vote to stay part of the British state for a millennium, it was still misappropriated in the first place. Pretty simple stuff.
>>And, when you refer to hiding behind ‘legalese’, is that the present constitution of the Republic of Ireland that you are dismissing?< <
No I was dismissing the legalese that people like you and others are using to try and replace the bare facts. The six counties is a modern construct, not a natural or historical fact. You cannot have territorial ambitions over a piece of your own country, it is yours, despite present artificial conditions.
CL
>>the one-time Deputy Leader of the UK Unionist Party, who currently works as a political commentator. He may be a marginalised, intransigent cynic who belongs in the political dustbin with Allister and his TUV Party<<
Heavens above, and hallelujah but for once we agree CL.
The aspiration to a united Ireland has been stated by the present RoI government and is a policy of almost all major political parties in the Republic.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/mar/15/northernireland.northernireland1
Official government publications and state backed television broadcasts regularly refer to the island of Ireland as if it were a single nation.
Contrast to the situation in the UK with the only party that I am aware of that has a policy of seeking reunion with the Republic is the BNP. Yes, it’s actually in their manifesto. Government publications and state media in Britain do not pervasively refer to the Republic of Ireland in a way that portrays it as still “morally” British territory, in contrast to the situation in the Republic of Ireland.
In this context, the Republic of Ireland constantly offends unionists. Day in and day out. Such offence is frankly inevitable. But they have a right to do it and unionists must learn to lump it, just as nationalists have to lump such things as Mary Peters running for Britain or unionists referring to “we” as meaning the UK in such and such a context (e.g. “we are at war in Afghanistan”).
This is NOT a situation of “normal neighbours” like Germany and the Netherlands for example, and we should not pretend that it is.
I am not saying that RTE weather forecasts should be forced to not include Northern Ireland or whatever, or that Brian Cowen should be taken over the coals if he refers to the island as a nation. But there is a quid pro quo there, and the extreme end of that quid pro quo is the burning of the Republic’s flag. I acknowledge it is extreme, but at the end of the day if the flag is the private property of the person doing the burning it is still just speech, not harm, speech. I don’t even really consider it more offensive than the singing of certain rebel songs.
This is a question of the definition of a word really. Can a 26 county nationalist be described as an Irish nationalist? Well maybe, but all island nationalism exists and is commonplace. You don’t have to go further than this web page to verify it. Let’s not pretend otherwise.
I don’t believe that it does, because burning the tricolour is simply an extreme expression of a territorial preference in what most of the world acknowledges as being contested territory. I don’t consider that Lebanese who burn Israeli flags or Serbs who burn EU flags are “a strange and truculent bunch” necessarily. They are people living in an area of unusual territorial dispute. So are loyalists in Northern Ireland, and that’s how the world should see them, whichever side in that dispute they come down on as supporting if any. We are not “normal” here and it is not constructive to pretend that we are. Our non-normalness is acknowledged by our consociational political arrangements for example. We are never going to be normal. Our realistic aspiration should be to be a Belgium rather than a Bosnia.
For territory, yes, national status really is a binary.
FFS Prentice, you are sitting on the fence with a fence post right up your arse, cant you make some sort of differentiating remark so we can lambaste you with our smug remarks?
@USA
I believe in tolerance. You are LITERALLY the one calling for intolerance. You are the one saying that a particular form of speech should not be tolerated on the grounds that it offends somebody. My hope for the future is that civil rights will be respected and political expression, however offensive, if not harmful, should always be permitted, not just in terms of law but also in terms of etiquette. I believe this in a general context too, even if it is David Irving or NAMBLA. In fact more than that I WANT TO HEAR what David Irving and NAMBLA have to say, even if only to dismiss it. Indeed I have browsed through both their websites and I’m grateful at the freedom of the internet that lets me do so. This is the position I am coming from. One of tolerance in the literal sense of the word.
If your future is an Orwellian one where speech is controlled by, if not law, then a strict code of etiquette, where tolerance is described as intolerance, then I don’t want a part of it.
If nationalists really did abandon aspirations to a united Ireland (i.e. ceased to be nationalists) and we became as two “normal” countries then I would personally object to flag burning, though still consider it should be legally permissible, but that is not the context we are in. There is a real issue of territorial dispute ongoing, in not just a legal but also a cultural context, and I don’t see loyalists burning RoI flags as any less legitimate than Serbs burning EU or Kosovan flags, Syrians burning Israeli flags, Basques burning Spanish flags, Sinhalese burning Tamil Eelam flags, Transnistrians burning Moldovan flags or whatever. Sticking our heads in the sand is not productive. This kind of political speech should be tolerated. Not just permitted, tolerated. And the world should look at it and acknowledge it, they should look and see that there are people there who strongly object to a united Ireland. They should acknowledge it because it is the truth, and little good ever really comes from believing fictions.
Concerned Loyalist
What ‘pagan symbolism’? They dont worship the bloody dragon. Its a forkelore symbol not a god. Taking your line is a bit like saying the Orange Order then worship King William’s horse or have endowed a Lambeg Drum with divine authority.
And when you say that: “In recent years the Chinese and Polish population has risen considerably in the area. I don’t believe they are fearful of Ulster’s Band Culture.” do you actually live near the Pass or Sandy Row? The immigrant community there might have a slightly different view after years of extortion, intimidation, attacks, racist grafitti etc.
Now who do you think carried that out? Republicans sneaking into the area to get the Prods a bad name?
There is a positive side to flag-burning if you are in the flag manufacturing business. As an American architect friend tells me, earthquakes are good for business.
Free speech is a qualified right, so if flag desecration is designed to provoke public disorder in an unstable political climate where much violence has already resulted from one nationalism ‘dissing’ another, then I would have no problem being legally ‘intolerant’ of the practice. Flag-burning is protected as free speech under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, but this isn’t the US so that status has no relevance to the laws and rights of other countries. The Irish government has no statutory requirements for how the flag is used but has published guidelines which state that it “is expected, however, that the National Flag will be treated at all times with appropriate respect by those who use it.”
http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/Pdf%20files/The%20National%20Flag.pdf
I don’t think it is necessary to engage in hyperbole that equates demands that a national flag be treated with respect with nightmarish vision of an “Orwellian” future. It’s just basic common sense and good manners – the same reason you don’t fart in a lift even though no law prevents you from doing so.
Anyway, so, what happens when the Nation does not have control of the State? Well, one nation begs for an Irish language act from the State but doesn’t get it, and the other Nation fears that the State will be used to destroy its culture if the other Nation gets control of it – in fact, both competing Nations fear that.
‘For as long as nationalists have territorial ambitions over Northern Ireland’
How can a NATIVE peoples have territorial ambitions over their native homeland which they bave lived in for 10,000 years.
the whole concept of the term can’t apply to Irish people but only to planters which is a polite term for invaders and unwanted settlers.
@Rory
A revealing pseudo-Marxist question. Whether a person is weak or poor is neither a qualification nor a disqualification concerning their rights. It’s irrelevant. Equality under the law must mean that the poor and weak have EQUAL RIGHTS. Granting them less rights because of their poverty is wrong, but granting them more rights, or special privileges, is equally wrong. A person should not gain any rights or lose any rights because they are a member of some set of persons that somebody (who?) has decided to label as an “oppressed group”. Rights are applied to individuals, not groups, and those rights should be equal for all individuals.
If a person’s actions cause within you an emotion, that emotion being offence, that does not of itself grant you any legitimate right to stop them from doing that action. In Northern Ireland in many situations offence is all but unavoidable, whether Derry / Londonderry or whatever. It cannot be used as a basis to grant or restrict rights. Only harm can. Basing laws or restrictions on offence also opens the door to the possibility of vast abuse, as offence is merely an emotional state that we have no other way of measuring except by the self report of the person allegedly offended.
We also need to offend people. Many creationists find David Attenborough talking about the earth being billions of years old genuinely offensive, and if we could wire them up to an offensometer we would see that their blood was genuinely metaphorically boiling. Similarly many may be genuinely offended by a hellfire preacher saying the unsaved will burn in hell, but neither of these genuine examples of offence are any justification for censure, even non legally obliged self censure. I want to live in a society where both David Attenborough and the hellfire preacher are free to offend others. And yes, I also want to live in a society where marches, whether gay pride, Orange Order or Easter commemoration are tolerated even though people find them offensive. That includes burning a flag whether it is a tricolour on the eleventh night or a US flag on an antiwar march. It should be tolerated. Not just permitted, actually tolerated. Quantitatively it is an extreme act, but qualitatively it is still within the grounds of fair free speech.
So please, if we are going to say what should be permitted, either legally or just socially, let’s not bring up the subject of whether it is offensive, because we know that something being offensive to someone is orthogonal to it’s permissibility in other contexts.
@Dave
It’s the principle that I object to. That offence can prevent someone exercising strong speech. That principle is VERY dangerous and must not be conceded. Another justification such as preventing a breach of the peace, or just plain fire hazard, may well be correct in particular scenarios or contexts but that is not what people here have been arguing for. They have been arguing on the grounds of offensiveness. That crosses the line between a liberal and free society and an illiberal society. It also opens up inevitable inconsistencies and the rule of men rather than the rule of law. If offence is a legitimate reason to stop something then why not use it to ban or object to gay pride marches? Or anti-vivisectionists or anti-abortionists with bloody pictures? Inevitably someone somewhere would have to make subjective differentiations rather than the application of an objective law, deciding whose genuine feeling of offence is superior to another’s feeling of offence.
No, my right to swing my fist must end at your nose and only at your nose. For it to be otherwise would be to set in reverse the progress made in the Enlightenment. Laws against “public denigration of Turkishness” or Holocaust denial or incitement to racial hatred (a law that doesn’t even make sense in the form it is written) are just plain wrong, and a law against flag burning on the grounds of offensiveness would be in exactly the same category of wrongness. Making it just the kind of thing NuLabour would consider doing of course!
http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2006/oct30_councillor_backs_flag-burning_ban.php
This is the extreme end of what people must learn to tolerate. People have a right to be offensive particularly in a context where much is reciprocally offensive. If we go down this line we’d have to end up confiscating Wolfe Tones CDs or treating as social pariahs anyone who had ever attended one of their concerts.
People who go to Wolfe Tonese concerts (Continuity or Provisional these days though) probably should be social pariahs. I’d disagree on the holocaust denial. Laws on incitement to racial and sectarian hatred do not get the use they should.
>>People who go to Wolfe Tonese concerts (Continuity or Provisional these days though) probably should be social pariahs.<<
Why?
>>The real question no one has asked is why is Northern Ireland bring invaded by hords of orientals in the first place, hmmmmm?<<
“David Vance”
I am interested in the legality here. If this comment, ‘openly racist’ was actually made by the commentator David Vance, who is know to employ racist terminology, most notably, ‘Pally’ to describe the displaced semitic people of Palestine (aka,. Judea, Samaria and Gallilee).
I think this open racism would call into question the suitablitly of using this person as a BBC commentator.
However, if this is merely someone posing as the Vance, is this libelous?
Garibaldy,
“People who go to Wolfe Tonese concerts (Continuity or Provisional these days though) probably should be social pariahs.”
My mother always pointed out to me that if you observe the crowd at the ‘Tones’ you will realise that a large number put a tick beside SDLP come election day. I never believed here until a local festival where she pointed them out, hard core stoops screaming out tones songs.
I hate the Tones. One of the few places you will be abused for speaking Irish.
‘I’d disagree on the holocaust denial’
Why Gari? Freedom of speech and all that. To deny the Holocaust is not to discriminate. Nor is it akin to shouting fire in a crowded cinema. If you make a law against it, how will we know the nutjobs who profess it? Better to see who the loonies are i think.
PE,
for the reasons GGN outlines mainly. And cause it was an easy bad joke. Let’s not forget they were too cowardly to set foot across the border during the troubles.
RS,
Freedom of speech can be abused, and incitement to hatred is a crime, and should be punished. Added to which, the holocaust has a unique place in human history – though it is far from the only genocide as Rwanda attests – and any attempt to deny it can only be linked to the wish to repeat it.
prentice ,
‘We are never going to be normal.’
Now there’s an honest unionist /loyalist:) Full marks for the obvious .
‘ Our realistic aspiration should be to be a Belgium rather than a Bosnia.’
Naw . NI can never be a Belgium -For that you need a Holland on one border and a France on the other with a looming Germany close by . The Walloons and Flemings are both predominantly the same in religion or lack of religion and they speak different languages.
The logic of Prentice’s argument to me is unassailable given the divided nature of NI’s polity . It’s thus surprising that Prentice does not follow up with a demand for a fair ‘repartition’ which is the only way for ‘unionism’ to survive longer term in NI -imo.
If nationalists really did abandon aspirations to a united Ireland (i.e. ceased to be nationalists) and we became as two “normal” countries then I would personally object to flag burning, though still consider it should be legally permissible, but that is not the context we are in.
That has to be the daftest thing I’ve ever read. If nationalists ceased to be nationalists there wouldn’t be a f*ckin problem!
Freedom of speech can be abused,
In my view all speech should be allowed no matter who it offends, it’s only if it were harmful to someones safety could I condone it being censored, or someone punished for uttering it.
A pagan element has no place in the twelfth.
I fail to see how denying the holocaust is incitement to hatred.
‘and any attempt to deny it can only be linked to the wish to repeat it.’
Sorry but thats just nonsense.
Your right that the holocaust is unique, I feel for two reasons.
1. The attempt by some to put it on a sacred pedestal, and condemn anyone who would seek to compare or analyse it in regard of other tragic events throughout history.
2. The fact that never before has such an atrocity been used for monetary gain by people who were completely unaffected by it.
“A pagan element has no place in the twelfth.”
Hmmm. Would you discribe the twelth as purely Christian.
I think we could all agree that much non Christian behaviour is to be observed on the twelth.
Also there is no biblical basis for it as a Christian celebration, more born of traditional than biblical origin (a wee bit Catholic in that sense?).
I think there is quite a bit of paganism on display!
Ok theoretically denial doesn’t have to be linked to neo-Nazi politics. But in every instance I know of so far, it has been. I don’t condemn people trying to analyse it in regard to other events, but there are few comparable events, if any. It’s the application of industrial techniques to wipe out “undesirables” that makes it unique.