9 vote margin
The government have won the House of Commons vote on extending the possible detention of terrorist suspects to 42 days by 315 votes to 306. That’s a margin of just 9 votes. No wonder the DUP were in demand today. I didn’t catch what happened to Bill Cash’s amendment. Adds Relating to Bill Cash’s amendment
Veteran former Labour MP Tony Benn said: “I never thought I would be in the House of Commons on the day Magna Carta was repealed”.
And Michael White notes an uncomfortable comparison for Gordon Brown. Update The DUP deny their votes were bought. But as Mick suggests at Brassneck, nevermind the moolah, there are other considerations in play. Namely threats over the devolution of policing and justice powers.
So the DUP voted for it?
David
They did.
I see they did. Sad day.
what did they get in return?
Heck….not my vote, anyway….!
I don’t believe the DUP were ever going to vote against the 42 day detention period – they sure did make some headlines and the next few days will put more focus on the DUP and Robinson.
It will also be interesting to watch the Conservative Party reaction and relationship with the DUP. May come back to hunt the DUP.
Local Tories seem remarkably restrained:
http://www.conservativesni.com
Check out Ben Brogan
http://broganblog.dailymail.co.uk/
This is entirely consistent with DUP policy and is not surprising at all. It’s their “tough line on terrorism” thing. The DUP are not a civil liberties party.
It will also be interesting to watch the Conservative Party reaction and relationship with the DUP. May come back to hunt the DUP.
This, I think, is the most interesting aspect. The DUP put a short-term relationship with Brown above a longer-term relationship with the Tories. Since Brown’s days are probably numbered, and the future looks blue, one has to wonder why.
What have they extracted from Brown that trumps what they might have got from the tories? Especially since the Lords are vlikely to block the 42 day detention bill anyway, so it is very symbolic.
How did Hermon vote?
The DUP should be ashamed of themselves. This is a gross violation of the liberties upon which this nation was founded. Let’s look forward to the Lords throwing this out, and if imposed on us by the Govt, the Tories repealing this pernicious legislation and suitably punishing the DUP.
As if the DUP were going to ever vote against this bill. Im sure we’ll see them in the news with little furrowed brows all scrunched up saying ‘they thought long about this’ , ‘it may seem alot but…’
If the DUP were/are interested in exerting influence and using that to get concessions their chances may well be much better in the next two years than after a General Election.
As the Tories get stronger the chances of a hung parliament recede and therefore the DUP may not be able to exert as much influece as once thought after the next election.
Ensuring the security of the UK is hardly a tough thing to sell either.
P.S.
Hermon voted Yes too
Hermon voted in favour also.
However, I agree with my honorable Comrade, I don’t see why this is a difficult vote for the DUP. Indeed I would have been more suprised had they voted against it. Am I missing a nuance of the bill?
Elvis, Lady H voted for 42 days, according to the BBC.
The whole vote became party political. The tory no vote was motivated by inflicting a defeat on the government, not by the issues of the bill.
Strange republican stones finds himself in bed with the torry´s, although given the headlines of the last few day´s that might not be a good analogy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7447212.stm carries an interesting story of a wrongful arrest. I thought the BBC interviewer’s questioning was bordering on the insulting.
Anyway, it’ll divert nicely from Iris for a few days. And it gives Sammy enough time to put out a tender for the provision of a nuclear power station.
Why 42 days? Only six people have ever been held close to the 28 day limit. Only two of those were actually charged.
As an aside, I’m occasionally a bit of a comics nerd. At this point, I’d like to refer to Alan Moore’s “V for Vendetta”. It was written during Thatcher’s era; increasingly it seems more and more pertinent to today.
How does this break down with the other EU Member States?
The Raven
I find the whole “why bring it in, no-one’s ever been held that long” argument strange.
If its not going to be used then what’s the point?
On the other hand, the DUP get (list concessions here) for their vote and what does Hermon get?
Well I’ll leave the rumours of what Sylv gets from Labour MPs for others to fill in.
USA – you’d only be missing a nuance of the Bill, if it had any! It doesn’t. The number 42 is arbitrary, the concessions given make it unworkable at best. It undoubtedly contravenes the Human Rights Act and the ECHR.
The DUP’s decision is entirely political and about what they can extract from the Government.
They may not be a civil liberties party, but they opposed internment, which is what this amounts to in all but name.
They and “liberal” Lady Hermon should ashamed to have supported this Bill. As Tony Benn so eloquently put it “I never thought I would be in the House of Commons on the day Magna Carta was repealed”.
Why is it strange that im against 42 day detention? Sure im with Kevin Myers on the Lisbon vote, politics these days is throwing up alot of strange bedfellows.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4075503.ece
We should all read this and start to question our leaders.
Sylvia Who?
Interested – in response to your question…
I dunno how many people have been held for suspected terrorist offences, but in this fear-filled repressive era since 9/11, I’d say it’s a few.
With only 6 held up to a point of being “close” to the existing 28 day limit, I have to say that I find extending it to 42 days….well….strange…
Indeed, if it’s not going to get used….why bring it in?
ZoonPol, I’m no fan of Major, but that was an excellent link, and hats off to the man for not playing the “don’t talk to me about the dangers of terrorism, I had f***ing mortars fired into my garden” card.
I still have enough faith in the people of NI to think that they will see this DUP action for what it is – selling out for (presumably) monetry gain. Over the next few days we will probably have to listen to sanctimonious Donaldson et al reassuring us of their integrity (voted to counter terrorism etc)blah,blah…
At the next election lets note who voted for 42 days….and that SF, by not participating, also contributed to the result.
Interesting to see how when the vote was announced, the BBC Website reports the following:
Cheers rang out earlier as the result was announced to a packed Commons chamber after a five-hour debate.
But Conservative and Liberal Democrat backbenchers pointed angrily at the DUP benches in the chamber, with one member shouting: “You were bought!” before Speaker Michael Martin intervened to restore order.
Then again selling out has been a popular trait of the DUP lately…
the £100 per head dinner, a deal on Policing and Justice and how could we forget Seymour Sweeney…
Is there anyone more corrupt than the DUP?
Strange that to defeat a terrorist threat from repressive cultures and backwards countries that the west starts to take away the freemdoms, liberties and honesty that makes them.
A victory of Al Q and his friends..
Two messages went out from this region today.
The “Democratic” Unionists raised the ‘for sale’ flag over our democratic institutions, and humilitated themselves (and their constituents). As the MPs on the floor of the House cried this afternoon: “you were bought”.
At the High Court, six men were acquitted of charges arising from their actions to “decommission” the Raytheon defence software plant in Derry last year. They put their liberty on the line to resist war crimes. From day one, they sought to put Raytheon and the backers of illegal wars on trial.
Two messages went out from this region today.
The “Democratic” Unionists raised the ‘for sale’ flag over our democratic institutions, and humilitated themselves (and their constituents).
At the High Court, six men were acquitted of charges arising from their actions to “decommission” the Raytheon defence software plant in Derry last year. They put their liberty on the line to resist war crimes. From day one, they sought to put Raytheon and the backers of illegal wars on trial.
I would´ve thought had the DUP been bought, their votes would have been against the government. Perhaps the torries offered very little, as usual.
If this had of been an open vote without political reprecussions for the govt. one would´ve fully expected the DUP to vote in the way they did.
42 days, compulsory ID cards etc. we are witnessing the decline of our civil liberties.
This, I think, is the most interesting aspect. The DUP put a short-term relationship with Brown above a longer-term relationship with the Tories. Since Brown’s days are probably numbered, and the future looks blue, one has to wonder why.
I don’t agree with this. The Tories have brought in plenty of similarly draconian legislation in their time, and had they been in government under similar circumstances to now, they’d be doing precisely what Brown did today – flagging themselves up as tough in terrorism in an effort to deflect from their incompetence at running the country.
Secondly, since when has a government with a comfortable majority ever repaid debts to Northern Ireland parties who’ve helped them out of a jam ? When it comes to the crunch, the votes of our 18 MPs are irrelevant, except when the government’s majority is under threat.
Don’t say i didn’t warn you !
Compulsory ID cards? Presumably for England, SCotland and Wales but not for NI given that almost half the population are not British?
Brown makes the lying discredited Blair look like a statesman of the highest calibre. I hope Brian Cowen is on the fone to the authoritarian little weasel to find out what nasty little deal he cooked up with bigoted unionism.
pacman
One of the proposals of the ID card is to use it when voting, are you saying if it was introduced to all of the UK, you would not have one and thus miss the chance to maybe one day vote NI out of the UK.
picador
I hope Brown gets on to the phone to tell Cowen to repeal the powers of the Special Criminal Court where the statement of a Garda can put a person in prison for years never mind 42 days.
The ROI should bring its human rights legislation up to the British standard before lecturing others.
O ye of limited memories …
It’s barely a twelve month since there were Tories and others prepared to support a 90-day detention. Today, perversely, they voted against even 42.
I cannot see how any British Government, in the present climate, can refuse to support a request of this kind from its securocrats. Nor are comparisons with all other European states valid: their views and policies may — indeed will — change as soon as they become targets.
Nay-sayers might usefully pause and consider just how closely related many of the recent terror plots seem to have been. The issue is not whether there is evidence to charge a suspect after three, seven, twenty-eight or whatever days. As I understand, the police have that weight of evidence within as many minutes. What matters is that, once a charge is laid, the suspect has greater freedoms to avoid further questioning. That is where Ms Chakrabarti and commonsense diverge. Had extended detention been possible on previous occasions, connections to other, later plots and to other persons not detained would likely have become obvious. We were quick to blame the securocrats for not establishing those links: can we also deny them the means to do better in future?
A clean liberal conscience is a nice warming feeling; but for once the tabloid press, and the general public mood have it right. The right of my wife and family, and millions like us, safely to use the London underground and British airports is superior to the rights of a few individuals to exploit present law.
The DUP, despite the last minute theatricals, were doing the proper thing, in policy as well as short-term advantage. The Opposition Tories were, and are playing partisan politics: but don’t worry — in a similar situation the Tory Whips will be prepared to pay the Ulster pipers in even-more devalued currency. Politics is a grubby business.
If the Lords now crap on the Bill from any height, that, too, is immaterial in political terms. As soon as the next atrocity comes along (as we all sense it surely will), the fingers will not point quite as easily at the Labour Government. Gordon Brown’s approach here has been a two-way safe bet: he gets the Bill, or he gets a substantial fig-leaf. That is why, whatever pledges are forthcoming now, an Act would not be repealed or let lapse by an incoming Government.
I reckon that the plaque on the Top Desk no longer reads: The buck stops here. For the last quarter-century the text has been: Today we were unlucky, but remember, we only have to be lucky once; you will have to be lucky always.
That’s three correct predictions in the last week or so… the DUP backing the govt, Shoukri’s sentence and the storm in the teacup over nominating McGuinness.
USA
IIRC, the DUP voted against 90 day detention during the Blair govt, so they have form on this kind of thing.
Raven
Excellent graphic novel. Read it years ago, as well as Watchmen.
Joe there is something about Major that i respect but i will be damned if i know what: all i know is that i respected him.
The Tories who were shouting over their shoulders at the DUP have short memories- the Major government was supported by the UUP as it limped into history. Then the UUP didn’t extract a proper price, a mistake I trust the DUP has not repeated.
If the polls are to be believed Cameron won’t require support in 2010 so the smart thing to do is use your leverage now when the opportunity arises. And if there is a Brown bounce back and Cameron is nine or twelve short of a working majority does anyone really think that tonights’ vote will stop him seeking the out the DUP in 18 months time?
This was not a confidence vote, the Tories have gone from 90 to 42 days to oppose for the sake of opposition, the DUP may have extracted measures from the government that will benefit all sections of NI opinion and the Lords will kill this bill when it gets to the other place. All in all a good nights work.
BTW Pacman that “almost” really rankles doesn’t it?
Good speech from Mark Durkan
Malcolm,
Where do you draw the line ? Why don’t we throw you in jail. You look like a dodgy sort to me.
Good long speech from Mark Durkan? Hopefully good bye speech soon.
So when the catholic population in the 6 counties overtake the protestants and vote themselves out of the UK and the die hard unionists start bombing and killing, they will be held and interrogated for 42 days instead of 7? nice
There are a couple of updates to the original post.
Have to agree with Stalin & USA – what, the DUP weren’t going to vote for the increase? If they’ve managed to extract something from Broon for voting for summat they were gonna vote for anyway, fair play to them (even if I did have to see McCrea sneering on the news tonight *shudder*).
ZoonPol
Thanks for the link and I have some admiration for Major too – I think I thought him an honest bloke. However, it’s a little disingenuous for him to start passing blame around on Iraq (the sequal) – if he had finished the job in ’91 when there were UN resolutions and a coalition and probably WMDs as well, it’s a bit of a leap but we may not be in as much of a mess today. He is dead right about 42 days and ID cards though.
I’m surprised no one has mentioned the real losers tonight – Sinn Fein.
Forget the talk about £200m or £1.2bn I suspect that while you might hear some ‘noises’ from Woodward about the urgency of devolving policng and justice and Westminster’s ability to introduce an Irish Language Act there will be no action. That will have been at the top of the DUP list – and Brown will have happily agreed cos its no skin off his nose.
Any extra money might be used to pay for a stadium – anywhere but at the Maze.
There might even be extra money for Education as long as Sinn Fein allow academic selection. If they dont will Minister Dodds fund a Common Entrance Exam Trust?
With SF’s MEP seat down South doomed and with SF with nothing left in its arsenal – literally and metaphorically – the only way is down for SF.
Gerry Adams will retire by the end of the year
I hope Brown gets on to the phone to tell Cowen to repeal the powers of the Special Criminal Court where the statement of a Garda can put a person in prison for years never mind 42 days.
Good response ulsterfan. You’ll be on about the Broy Harriers next.
At last someone has hit the nail on the head!
The DUP met with Brown three times today. What did they really get? Will we ever find out?
I suspect SBCR is largely correct. More money for the collective Norn Iron begging bowl AND the DUPs sectarian agenda advanced at the expense of nationalists.
Once the Lisbon Treaty referendum is out of the way Cowen needs to demand answers of Brown. He has quite clearly played the Orange card to save his own skin and for that he must stand condemned. Why oh why do we have the misfortune to be governed by such charlatans!