PS: With a deal in the bag, the election talk is now being officially denied by Sinn Fein. Yet, there was an awful lot of unattributable material appearing from somewhere yesterday at Stormont, at precisely the same time as Gerry Adams’ highly talented PR was talking to any journalist who moved. The thing about plausible deniability is that it has to be plausible to work.
The words of Brian O’Nolan, variously Brian Ó Nualláin, Myles na gCopaleen, Myles na Gopaleen and, of course, Flann O’Brien. That O’Nolan was referencing his own dissolute student days at UCD only mildly distracts from the prophetic undertone of his words: I paid no attention whatsoever to books or study and regarded lectures as a [...] read our review »
Having somehow managed to avoid watching a single episode of the widely praised West Wing TV series I was delighted to discover the entire Box set in my Christmas stocking – and with enough spare time over the holidays to give it a good lash. But with 10 episodes of the first series under my [...] read our review »
This reads as if a mad picaresque tale. Myers as first a reporter for RTÉ and then as a freelance journalist with no real experience, finds himself wandering into savagery as he hastens north as the Troubles explode. A soldier dies next to him; he witnesses an IRA ambush; he sees children shot to death [...] read our review »
Pete – your point is well made. But please try and be Baconic and study the consequences.
Dewi
“please try and be Baconic and study the consequences.”
I will.. when the consequences emerge.
The Baconian notes what the evidence is to date.
To do otherwise is to engage in futuring.
observer,
‘Its probably remembering that over 50% of our wee country wont touch an ILA’
Where did you get that over 50% from ? Anyway you won’t have to touch it -just make sure it’s passed it into legislation – along with Ulster Scots . Nobody is forcing you to learn or read Irish . You will still be able to converse in Hiberno English with the rest of your fellow islanders on both islands . See how the Scots have depoliticised Scots Gaelic and the Welsh . Now there’s the example to follow instead of bloody minded thran stupidity
The latter does not win friends nor influence people and is self defeating . But then I suppose that can be said of ‘unionism ‘ generally on this island over the past 100 years .
Whoever thought that plan up has just succeeded in making the whole party look ineffectual, weak and incompetent.
Can’t wait to hear how this humiliation is spun.
Mark, you’re ignoring the capacity of true believers to read what they want out of anything that happens, as they are already doing. If you believe that the Unionists are a crowd of no-culture knuckle-dragging neandrathals who can hardly read and write, and Sinn Féin are the meanest, leanest, spinning machine that ever fought an election, then you can read a content-free Shanghai Communiqué of a statement as a victory every time.
Gearóid is now a destructive force for Sinn Féin. What do you do with your life when you’re the former future President of Ireland? Without a real job in either Stormont or Leinster House, and still feted as a living God by many, he has nothing to do all day but brood and tell himself how much better everything would be if he was in charge. The sooner the Shinners bundle him off on an extended US book promotion tour, the better for them. Although if he wanted to do something useful, he could actually use his clout to be a de facto mayor of West Belfast, banging heads together to try and reverse the spiraling crime rates, unending dependency, and rapid out-movement from the West of the city. At times he has seemed keen to do it – notably after the Holland and McGreevy murders. It is by far the most useful thing he could do with the rest of his career.
But Mark the issues are back on the table.
Billy, the issues were never off the table. In particular, the DUP were already rapidly moving towards compromise on the 11-plus. The Shinners threatened to pull the house down and bearded a less than enthusiastic Gordon Brown for the sake of a joint communiqué with the DUP promising to discuss things they were already discussing. Great victory. Was that another Stalingrad strategy?
the lack of DUP crowing, apart from the usual retards here, is telling.
Interesting point Dec, but maybe the DUP have actually learned something from the Trimble/Paisley jig after Drumcree One – i.e., that when you win on all issues of substance, it’s better to let your opponents walk away with their heads held high and self-respect. Because if you don’t then your opponents have no reason to stick to the deal and can bring the house down, and all your achievements with it.
The old joke about the Agreement was that the Unionists were too stupid to realise they’d won and the Shinners were too clever to tell them. Maybe in Robinson, Unionism finally has a leader with the wit to realise they’ve won and the political skills not to knock the apple cart over.
But it’s what politicians do, folks.
Only if they’re really useless politicians, Jenny.
“Its probaly worth remembering that over 50% of our wee country wont touch an ILA.” That may be the case at the moment Observer however demographics as with politics are, unfortunately from a Unionist perspective, fluid and not stagnate. It won’t be too far in the future when the arithmetic is no longer conducive to your argument. Bottom line is the Brits want out and the Brits play cricket, a favoured sport of our illustrious DFM I might add.
Anyway you won’t have to touch it -just make sure it’s passed it into legislation – along with Ulster Scots
NO THANKS
Mick
That’s optics Billy. These things were never off the table. I’ve argued elsewhere that this gets SF of the SAA/AF hook. That’s a win. But it’s not a loss for the DUP either. Yep, a cheap Scarva stunt written right through it.
I don”t think it is a loss for the DUP but I can’t see what they’ve got out of it either so if SF have arrested the sense they’ll take whatever the DUP dishes out then it is a small win for them. If the need to address these issues has also been ramped up it is also a slight gain. The DUP could have spun it out indefinitely. They may still do. I don’t actually think any winners or losers can be called until the outcome of that process is done.
I think the spin is wrong though: this is a manufactured crisis. Another one is very easily manufactured if the DUP refuse to move on any of the outstanding issues. The option should remain open, if SF have any sense.
Pete
I’m sure if people want reminded they can simply look on every other thread you’ve posted on. I can write you a bot to spam the site, it would be quicker.
That may be the case at the moment Observer however demographics as with politics are, unfortunately from a Unionist perspective, fluid and not stagnate.
makes no difference, thanks to the STA you`ll always need our agreement – or didnt gerry tell you that one?
Sammy
These issues should not be on or off the table but should have been passed into legislation, remind me what the date is again.
Jenny
You wrote that “SF has too much to lose to upset what is now the statis quo” could you remind me exactly what the shinners; and more to the point their electorate has to loose. As it seems to me so far they have gained nothing new yet lost much of what they were promised.
It also looks like the shinners intend renegotiating what had already been claimed as done deals, or so Mr Adams and Marty Chuckle claimed in the past. Seems a weird way to carry on.
“makes no difference, thanks to the STA you`ll always need our agreement – or didnt gerry tell you that one?”
I think you’ll find your mistaken my friend when it comes to the constitutional postion of the north. For example the British and Irish Governments “affirm that if, in the future, the people of the island of Ireland exercise
their right of self-determination on the basis set out in sections (i) and (ii)
above to bring about a united Ireland, it will be a binding obligation on
both Governments to introduce and support in their respective Parliaments
legislation to give effect to that wish”. Sin e.
Mick Hall
It also looks like the shinners intend renegotiating what had already been claimed as done deals, or so Mr Adams and Marty Chuckle claimed in the past. Seems a weird way to carry on.
Quite. The logical consequence also seems to be that SF either have to get a win, or they have to pull down the Assembly. Anything else and they will have badly damaged themselves.
P.s. No Acht na Gaelige no stadium for “Our wee country”. Its called compromise which I know may be a hard concept for Unionists to understand but there you have it. We haven’t gone away you know, nor do we intend to.
#
“makes no difference, thanks to the STA you`ll always need our agreement – or didnt gerry tell you that one?”
I think you’ll find your mistaken my friend when it comes to the constitutional postion of the north. For example the British and Irish Governments “affirm that if, in the future, the people of the island of Ireland exercise
their right of self-determination on the basis set out in sections (i) and (ii)
above to bring about a united Ireland, it will be a binding obligation on
both Governments to introduce and support in their respective Parliaments
legislation to give effect to that wish”. Sin e.
Posted by Quagmire on Jun 04, 2008 @ 11:24 PM
Tell you what quagmire, hold your breath for that one lol
And dont talk of compromises, what has SF comrpomised on?
Jesus Christ. What a load of nonsense over sweet fuck all.
don’’t think it is a loss for the DUP but I can’t see what they’ve got out of it either
The DUP weren’t looking for anything out of it.
The logical consequence also seems to be that SF either have to get a win, or they have to pull down the Assembly.
I’m sorry, ken, but that was the line that Sinn Féin put into the public domain themselves. On what basis did SF manufacture the crisis – that they would pull down the Executive if they didn’t get what they wanted. But in reality, they didn’t get what they wanted but they didn’t pull down the Executive either. Gearóid ends up looking like the little boy who cried wolf.
These issues should not be on or off the table but should have been passed into legislation, remind me what the date is again.
Don’t ask me to defend that squalid little deal at St. Andrew’s. We had nothing to do with it and I’m glad we didn’t.
Ken
“I’m sure if people want reminded they can simply look on every other thread you’ve posted on. I can write you a bot to spam the site, it would be quicker.”
Where some remain ignorant, I merely seek to enlighten – again.
Good to see that you may have finally have become enlightened yourself.
Although that position ignores the previous promises of commitments.
Gar, it’s actually been hugely interesting. Speaking for myself and none of the other ‘tards, I never thought for one moment, weak as SF’s inherent position is (military defeat allied to participation in British partitionist structures – whatever else that is, it isn’t the Republicanism they murdered for), that they would prove to be quite so politically incompetent. There’s only one rule in the big league – don’t make threats you can’t deliver on. And as most of knew all along, SF were so far from being able to deliver on this threat that their most slow witted drones are now infesting Slugger claiming that the utterly ineffectual threat was never made!
Mick,
its a bit much to ask people to discuss the rather arcane point about briefings, I mean who gives a feck about that except journalists ? especially when the substantive news story has just broken.
As predicted earlier by myself and many others, no election but statement from Robbo indicating movement on P and J.
What is impressive about this story is that Non Iron can still can hold centre stage – and this is simply because peace has not settled in fully and the British will not allow it to slip back – well done to Gordo.
The constitutional and symbolic signifcance of
the administration of police and justice being controlled by Nationalists not to mention a Nationalsit appointed Attorney General ensures that the difficulty for many of supporting British adminstered law in Non Iron can be removed.
Nationalists have waited since partition for this so a few more months should hopefully not be a problem. Well done Grizzly.
The constitutional and symbolic signifcance of
the administration of police and justice being controlled by Nationalists not to mention a Nationalsit appointed Attorney General ensures that the difficulty for many of supporting British adminstered law in Non Iron can be removed.
Nationalists have waited since partition for this so a few more months should hopefully not be a problem. Well done Grizzly.
Sammy this issue has ALWAYS been on the table its been grizzlys friends in the Army council thats been holding it up !!
All Adams has done is sped up the day with the Army COuncil goes out of buisiness, tho he could have done it ages ago and saved everyone the trouble of this week!
“Tell you what quagmire, hold your breath for that one lol”
Tell that to the people who said that the Berlin wall would never come down, to the people who said Paisley would never share power with SF(never mind chuckle with them) or to the people who said there would never be a black president of the USA (watch this space). Indeed if someone had of told Nelson Mandella as he sat in his prison cell on Robben Island for some 20 odd years that he would one day become the president of South Africa, I’m sure he too would have shared in your pessimism. Looked what happened in that instance. Observer my friend time and logic is on nationalism’s side. Off to bed now. Oiche Mhaith. x
Sammy,
You call it arcane, I call it a key determinant in whether someone can be relied upon to tell you the truth, or not. Let’s just agree to differ on that.
As for centre stage. Well, ‘centre stage’ on Slugger, UTV and the Beeb NI is not ‘centre state’ as it once was.
BTW, did Gordon ever make that statement this evening?
peteb
well just to future for a sec, we might actually get a date this time for P&J;, and not a target date
That’s going to save alot of fingers tapping on key-boards… redux?
Observer,
The army council is now a bit like articles 2 & 3 – of absolutely no value in itself except for bartering purposes and held on to by SF to ensure the DUP did as required.
The DUP can not jump too juickly on this as they told their electorate that they wouldn’t be allowing SF/IRA/terrorists to amdinster P and J any time soon – not that an astute Observer like yourself I’m sure believed a word of it.
Sammy
The boy that cried wolf did not do it once. He did it multiple times. I don’t think SF got nothing out of it. They have seemingly forced these issues to be brought to a head and have made clear they won’t stand by and allow the DUP to veto everything without consequence. I don’t think this is directly comparable to Brown last year as it seems to be a leverage based calculation rather than an electoral gain based one. It might be mostly optics, but the optics matter, especially when there are rumblings from the base about what the DUP have been dealing out. You might sneer at the SF base, but SF don’t and hence get their votes.
But having threatened the nuclear option, they can’t go through the process and have no gain. They need a win. If they don’t get one, they have to carry out the threat. Else they will be the boy that cried wolf, and I think they will take damage that I don’t even think a weak SDLP will save them from, and if FF come up they will murder them over it.
Pete
I have stated long ago that you were probably right on the target date. I also stated when this came up that i didn’t reckon they wanted the election. I have engaged in a little speculation and “futuring” though as I see little harm in it.
Futuring in particular allows the possibility of thinking out problems and potential scenarios. Criticism and discussion helps anticipate problems with particular courses of action. As long as you don’t get too carried away then you’ll be grand. They have degrees (or at least modules thereof) in Futurology these days, you know.
Mick,
when you get in to see the Engleze prime minister who is in the middle of multiple crises at very short notice – I call that centre stage. Gordo seems to have played a stormer.
What statement are you refering to ? Did I say he would do so – I certainly said he would clip Robbo round the ear – and he appears to have done that.
kensei
at least there’ll be some movement, we don’t know the detail yet. I’m sure I’m not the only one finding the constant constipation utterly paralysing.
There are so many important challenges to face in NI that are bread and butter issues, never mind the global uncertainties, I’d on reckon Robbo being pragmatic.
He’s smart enough to know endless negotiating is just too damaging for the Union’s survival.
He’ll secure the Union even more, that’s what Attwood warned about, however INMO the debate about irish unity can only really begin in an atmosphere of stability; which we haven’t got with all these “outstanding matters”.
so this can be a win-win for DUP and SF.
You might sneer at the SF base, but SF don’t and hence get their votes.
Show me where I sneered at the SF base? Politicians who sneer at voters are stupid, although sneering at other politicans can occasionally be both useful and fun!
SF have both to manage a true-believer ex-Ra base and a wider nouveau SF base. All parties have to manage the often contradictory views of their hardcore and broad base of support, but its a particularly acute problem for SF. The hardcore literally risked death for the cause, while the periphery is 2.5 times the size of the traditional voter base. Gerry has done them no favours by unsettling the periphery without delivering anything concrete for the hardcore. And pissing off their Brit guarantors – what a laugh that was – by annoying them when they really didn’t want to be bothered with that ‘bloody awful country’.
Maybe time will prove me wrong, but I don’t see anything here that wasn’t already agreed without contention this day last week, and political capital you spend threatening to bring down a government takes a long time to build up again. Marty went out of his way to make sure everyone up on The Hill knew he hadn’t gone to London with Gerry. Face it, Gearóid is a liability, and if the Shinner men in grey suits (men in fading jeans and Che t-shirts?) have any wit they’ll be thinking about how to encourage him to jump before they have to push him.
G’night. No doubt we’ll continue the slabbering match in the morning!
percy
He’ll secure the Union even more, that’s what Attwood warned about, however INMO the debate about irish unity can only really begin in an atmosphere of stability; which we haven’t got with all these “outstanding matters”.
I don’t really think much of this will speak to the stability of the Union or otherwise: it does speak to the stability of the government and the current settlement.
In terms of wins/losses, the DUP wish I’m keeping my eye on is voluntary coalition. SF would be mad to move on it, and will lose my vote if they do in any meaningful sense. It’s an order of a magnitude more important than anything SF are asking, which after all was already agreed in principle previously.
Sammy
Show me where I sneered at the SF base?
First para, 11:00PM. Hard to read otherwise, Sammy.
Gerry has done them no favours by unsettling the periphery without delivering anything concrete for the hardcore. And pissing off their Brit guarantors – what a laugh that was – by annoying them when they really didn’t want to be bothered with that ‘bloody awful country’.
See, I feel the true believers will feel happier that SF are taking a tougher line, and the more middle class base will not care as they haven’t pulled the thing down. It is also simplistic to talk of true believer / middle class anyway. SF picked up a lot of support, particularly from young people by being more assertive. There is a section of their vote that would be upset by this but in terms of attitudes, the lines aren’t always clear, as you should well know. Lazy.
Maybe time will prove me wrong, but I don’t see anything here that wasn’t already agreed without contention this day last week, and political capital you spend threatening to bring down a government takes a long time to build up again.
The only thing that will prove this right or wrong is the outcome of the process. As I said, SF need a win. If the ILA is back on the table after being stone dead, they have a slight win anyway. But in any case you are missing the optics for those annoyed by SF taking everything the DUP has thrown.
Face it, Gearóid is a liability, and if the Shinner men in grey suits (men in fading jeans and Che t-shirts?) have any wit they’ll be thinking about how to encourage him to jump before they have to push him.
5 seats in WB? Yeah, right, they’ll be begging him to stand down. I’m not sure he is a liability either. If there was a split within SF on tactics on this, it remains with Adams there or not.
kensei
Interesting you’d rule out your vote for SF with voluntary coalitions on the menu.
I’m not so sure, SF would make a great opposition party; and might get more changes via this method than in a mandatory coalition with DUP.
Just a thought.
ken,
Care to comment on the apparent internal contradictions in this?
“I think the spin is wrong though: this is a manufactured crisis. Another one is very easily manufactured if the DUP refuse to move on any of the outstanding issues. The option should remain open, if SF have any sense.”
Damn, I sound like a smug lecturer… But I am curious as to what you really meant…
Mick,
You claimed the need for sleep slightly over 2 hours ago.
Go to bed. There’s always tomorrow.
Joe
you have to give the bed-time story:
“There were 3 teddy Burrs, Gerry Burr, Peter Burr and Gordon Burr …….”
nite all
Observer
You keep going on about wanting “parades dealt with” and the Maze.
The Parades issue is already being dealt with by the Parades Commission. Lord Ashdown and his review committee have made it very clear that the Parades commission stays until P&J;has been devolved. If Unionists don’t like, that’s tough -there is nothing they can do about it.
While Unionists can block P&J;, Nationalists can ensure that the Parades Commission stays in place.
While Unionists can ensure that there is no stadium at the Maze, Nationalists can ensure that Windsor Park is not refurbished or, in fact, that there is no new stadium at all if they wish – the biggest losers out of this by far will be the IFA and the NI team.
It’s clear that the DUP have played the game better than SF over the last year.
However, as much as you’d like to think it, this is not simply a case of the DUP holding all the cards.
While they have been able to “block” Sinn Fein proposals over the last year, you seem to forget that Sinn Fein can quite easily “block” any and all DUP proposals if they wish.
The British govt clearly won’t impose anything unless the whole thing collapses – a situation that would benefit Nationalists a lot more than Unionists.
So, if Unionists want to get rid of the Parades Commmission or want Windsor Park refurbished (or a new stadium built at all) etc, they’ll have to compromise with Sinn Fein.
I don’t see why you think that Unionists have won everything and Nationalists have lost everything.
It’s obvious that unless both the DUP + SF are prepared to compromise, it will be a complete farce and nothing will be achieved.
Based on their current behaviour, the DUP aren’t prepared to compromise. In my opinion, SF should be prepared to walk away if required.
I would think that, in the event of another election, the DUP have more to worry about than SF.
It’s pretty obvious that, if a local solution doesn’t work, the UK govt will move towards de facto joint authority. The British govt don’t want NI with it’s begging bowl mentality – if the assembly collapses, they’ll be only too glad for the RoI to have major (and increasing) input into the running of the North.
If I were a Unionist, I’d be keen to see a local agreement working successfully. As a Nationalist,
I think the collapse of the assembly wouldn’t necessarily be a big problem.
Billy,
I think you underestimate the ‘sham-ness’ of this particular fight. Nothing is going to collapse. Unless it is SF. And given the extreme existential implications that remains a highly implausible outcome. Truth is the old sectarian split is dead.
In terms of outcome, there’s been a shifting of some very particular deckchairs but the ship sails on. We get told Gerry and Martin are going to Downing Street, and it turns out it’s only Gerry on his todd. Meanwhile, his other half is in Stormont spinning complete fictions to the press.
Either Gerry has undertaken to do the heavy lifting in this fraudulent little set piece to get himself and the leadership off the hook over St Andrews, or it is an indication of something deeper inside the party. At this moment we simply cannot tell.
If it is the latter, then it will show later down the line. Tensions like that cannot stay hidden in the long term.
If it is the former, it will nevertheless suit the DUP to have people speculate that it is slowly driving a wedge through the middle of Sinn Fein.
Keep watching this space…
Sinn Fein blinked first well done to the DUP not the push overs like the UUP
Per Mick Fealty & Sammy’s comments, if SF has any balls at all, they should be on display within the party at the moment in terms of standing Gerry down. That might also take care of the problem of the IRA A/C. (sly joke in there somewhere)
Don’t you get the impression that perhaps Gerry and Martin did not agree this strategy in the first place ? Marty’s presence in Stormont appears to actually undermine Gerry’s trip to No. 10. The doom and gloom spin seemed to be coming from the Gerry side.
Regarding the Irish Language Act, I think we’ll not have one; we’ll get something else approximately similar. Just like we did not get decommissioning, but instead got weapons “put beyond use”; and just like we did not get the RUC disbanded, but fundamentally reformed, I suspect some of Sinn Fein’s requirements regarding Irish will be met to the point where they can sell it as a victory, and where the DUP can face down claims of a sellout.
You have to hand it to Robinson. He’s played this one beautifully.
Mick
Basically, either side has the capacity to manufacture a crisis at any point they want. But they need a bloody good reason, or they will be chastised by the electorate. As we discussed over the past few days, there was maybe enough in there for SF to get away with it (though I said all along that I didn’t think they wanted it).
So the problem for me is not that they’ve “shifted the deck chairs”. They have moved dealing with these issues up the agenda, and they have sent a message they’ll not simply bend over and take anything the DUP gives. I think people are missing the significance of that. There is a Stormont bubble a bit here. People don’t see that “things were always on the table”. They see the DUP vetoing everything and then crowing about how much money they’ve taken off the Irish language.
But they’ve threatened the nuclear option. The problem is that having done that, they now need a win from the resulting process. If they can’t get one because the DUP continues to refuse to move, then they have to pull the trigger. It’s the only credible move, and if they are spinning this was all in everyone’s heads they have got it entirely wrong. They should maintain it may still happen if the DUP does not honour commitments.
I’m not so worried about an Irish Language Act, though I’m glad that it has been brought back to political life after its recent travails, as I am about the impending impoverishment of the Irish Language Broadcast Fund – apparently it officially runs out of money at the end of June. That’s it then, the end of Irish language programming from the north in any substantial form on TG4 and the filleting of the already meagre BBC NI Irish language service. All thanks to Minister Poots – who got his job courtesy of a SF miscalculation (another one) – and while we’re ‘briefed’ that there will be a change of personnel at DCAL, there’s no doubt if Tweedle Dumb (Sammy Wilson) replaces Tweedledumber (Edwin Poots) that it will be no reason for Irish language enthusiasts or culture vultures to be enthused. Expect the resources of DCAL to be devoted to a giant velodrome for Motorcycle Racing or some such…
As for the pitiful observations of Observer regarding the Irish language, he has to get over it. The Irish language is spoken and used by a substantial section of the population. It is an indigenous language of this part of Ireland and, as he no doubt maintains, this part of the UK. So it can be called a British language if he so wishes – but there’s no reason that citizens of this part of the UK should have less rights than citizens of other parts of the UK such as the Welsh speakers of Wales or the Scots Gaelic speakers of Scotland. Both of those languages and language communities are protected by legislation – is Observer advocating less rights for UK citizens simply because they’re located in NI?
i am sure that more and more nationalist people are beginning to realise that SF are as useless as the Stoops ever were.
“The only thing that will prove this right or wrong is the outcome of the process. As I said, SF need a win. If the ILA is back on the table after being stone dead, they have a slight win anyway. But in any case you are missing the optics for those annoyed by SF taking everything the DUP has thrown”
But the Shinners have just given in to the only threat they had, not re-nominating. You seem to forget that the DUP pulled the wool over your head in the first instance at St Andrews by promising you an ILA and then promptly binned it. Whats to stop them doing that again now that SF have blinked and walked back in? They have given up their one piece of leverage in the hope that the DUP will talk again, what is in it for them now to give in to your republican goals?
is Observer advocating less rights for UK citizens simply because they’re located in NI?
Posted by Concubhar O Liatháin on Jun 05, 2008 @ 09:28 AM
Irish is the language of Ireland (and even then barely spoken) the language of NI is English.
Mick Hall asked me: ‘could you remind me exactly what the shinners; and more to the point their electorate has to loose. As it seems to me so far they have gained nothing new yet lost much of what they were promised’. Gabh mo leisceal? Shinners: How about being represented in a functioning regional government executive at a time of growing economic crisis, with their representative in charge of several key departments and with influence on others through Executive and Committee membership? Plus membership of other relevant bodies dealing with aspects of all-Ireland and GB/ Irish governance, plus a prescence on the international political stage? Oh, and (by and large) the IRA not killing people any more?
Their electorate: The question is whether the most disadvantaged on the Falls, in Strabane, in Newry and so on are gaining from the Assembly, or whether they would be better off under direct rule. It’s right that there should be debate about the extent to which SF might have sold out. But I would prefer to have a regional than UK government trying to protect my interests at the present time – with as many powers devolved as possible, and preferably a federal system. I think it depends on whether you think the SF electorate is more concerned about Irish unity or about basic services and the cost of living. I certianly don’t see that we’d be in a better position economically now if Ireland had been re-united – borders are irrelevant to global capitalism.
The reneger responds; is Observer advocating less rights for UK citizens simply because they’re located in NI?
Posted by Concubhar O Liatháin on Jun 05, 2008 @ 09:28 AM
Irish is the language of Ireland (and even then barely spoken) the language of NI is English.
Posted by observer on Jun 05, 2008 @ 10:03 AM
You could say the same thing about Wales or Scotland – the fact is that they’re part of the UK and yet they can enjoy their own national identity without it being viewed by the majority as some form of threat. NI is part of Ireland (geographically, if not politically) and thus is Irish. It’s part of the UK (politically) and thus the citizens of NI have a right to expect equal treatment to citizens in the other parts of the UK. That only enhances the bond between NI and the other parts of the UK – however the Mr Magoos of the DUP (the myopic Observer included) can’t or won’t see that. They see their ascension to power in NI as an opportunity to dump on their fellow citizens at every opportunity, to return to the game of dominate and destroy. Well that’s not going to happen and if any lesson is to be learned from the latest twists and turns in the process, it should be that. All parties to the St Andrew’s Agreement now recognise that there are unfulfilled issues and these will have to be addressed and resolved one way or another. That’s the cost of Peter’s ascension to the First Ministry alongside Martin McGuinness.
The game’s up Observer – the DUP’s party is over. And the party will learn to cherish the Irish language. I can’t wait to see its bilingual web site….
As the less addled on this thread have pointed out, the real significance to SF’s self-inflicted humiliation over the last three days has been the degree of division thereby displayed. The one thing they had going for them was unity and internal coherence (all, of course, supplied by the fact that, since they’re *not* a ‘democratic political party’ like any other, their leadership hardly has to worry about the commonplace internal challenges a Brown, a Cameron, a Durkan, a Reg or even a Punt always has to bear in mind). Now, for the first time in a generation, we see very real divergence between the leading Provisional personalities. Obviously there always *were* divisions, but the point the more acute here have picked up on is that, precisely because they *were* managed, they weren’t hitherto seen.
So what does this amount to? The sheer impossibility of Northern Irish Republicanism*, unrevised, realistically meshing with democracy. As it stands, SF are ‘in office’ precisely because we have a gerrymandered regime at Stormont, which anyone who actually believed in the twaddle of 68/69 would sooner die than lend legitimacy to. But – and the actions of SF over the last 72 hours have materially advanced this prospect – the temporary and expedient nature of the mandatory coalition has become ever more stark. Whether either Adams’ clique, or Murderin’ Mart’s faction have in fact looked to the future and seen what’s coming (irrelevant opposition, north and south of the border) is hard to know. What’s not is that both men have zero idea what to do about that. But them’s is the licks parties that get barely a quarter of the vote receive in EVERY electoral system, the wide world over. Get used to reality boys, there’s an awful lot more of it coming your way.
*Which is the only honest way to parse the “movement” – the gap between its genuine Northern expression, and its supposed Southern component being so great as to embarrass even brass necked Nordies now.
ken,
“People don’t see that ‘things were always on the table’.”
That’s true. But when you have to lie in order to change that perception (having already done so to your support in private), that’s also not good news for the future of the party. The lie becomes the narrative.
I do agree that this is Stormont bubble stuff, of r now. But these things have a way of suffusing through to the wider world.
Sinn Fein blinked first well done to the DUP not the push overs like the UUP
Posted by truth and justice on Jun 05, 2008 @ 08:32 AM
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What a load of bigoted nonsense. I bet this blogger is an ex-UUPer who was past over for a post or could not stand being in a party that was democratic and went with the wishes of the majority of her Council!
For the record when the DUP was telling the electorate of their New Deal that was the GFA in drag they also said SF could not hold them to ransom – they just did!
The New Deal was all about what’s in for us (DUP) not for all of us (Northern Ireland).
Bigger Picture
But the Shinners have just given in to the only threat they had, not re-nominating.
Entirely manufactured. SF can kill the Assembly at any time it likes. Hence, it needs a win or to pull the trigger.
They have given up their one piece of leverage in the hope that the DUP will talk again, what is in it for them now to give in to your republican goals?
No, I expect there will be some negotiations and the DUP will extract a price for things it has already agreed to in principle, precisely like SF used to do. But SF need to do better this time and get some concrete commitments – an ILA, even if it is watered down. A concrete date for P&J;, even if it is a little out. Selection resolved, even if it is not quite to their taste. And so on. I said they need a win not to win. They need some of that shopping list checked off. And they need it relatively soon. Otherwise they have to pull the trigger. They can do so any time by MMG resigning.
The lesson Gez had all too painfully ladled out to him by Gordon was very simple: you quit the game if you want to, we’ll move on without you. I’m perplexed as to why people are pretending that the current rules for Stormont are writ from God. What Westminster provided for, Westminster can just as easily alternatively provideth for. There are no rules in this game other than what’s convenient for HMG – they’re the determinant player in the game, not the local parties, and certainly not other governments (cf the Republic or the US). And has Gez was reminded yesterday, if he starts being inconvenient for London, he really doesn’t have any options left, does he?