McDonnell: Sinn Fein will sign up to Robinson’s deal…
With Gerry Adams going to see Gordon Brown today, Alasdair McDonnell believes Sinn Féin is “simply talking up a crisis to cover up its negotiating mistakes at St Andrews, and its subsequent political failures”:
They built their trap themselves and they walked into it. Sinn Féin will cut a deal very soon, but let there be absolutely no doubt, it will be Peter Robinson’s deal. It will keep Sinn Féin in power, perhaps with some personnel changes, but it will not be a good deal for nationalists.
I’ll take that but what do you mean about “up front deals” – is that the same as no deal?
I think you get a sense of how unionists deal now, deal me! I’d be careful!
I’ll take that but what do you mean about “up front deals” – is that the same as no deal?
Posted by Deal me in on Jun 03, 2008 @ 05:54 PM
Means that there will be no deal on any of the above before marty becomes Peters no 2
But means the DUP will concede all behind closed doors? To be released at a later date?
But means the DUP will concede all behind closed doors? To be released at a later date?
Posted by Mayoman on Jun 03, 2008 @ 06:01 PM
who knows, but as mcdonnell points out it`ll be the DUPs deal
It is clear that there is a sectarian basis for many of the logjams at Stormont. And that sectarianism is coming from the DUP – mayoman
really? what about the retention of academic selection, standing down of the army council, or moves towards a voluntary coalition.
Dont see the shinners moving on those issues, bloody sectarians
Only a unionist could turn ‘concede’into a victory!
I’ll keep my money safe in my pocket! I’d have no idea what I’m betting on with you!
Mayoman, any deals will be done on teh DUPs terms. And no deal will be done before thursday – guaranteed!
Marty will do what he is told and become peters no. 2 – guaranteed
Point made on both sides, not going to bore people any more.
LURIG:
Let’s go through some of this stuff.
Policing & Justice = OUT;
It’s not out, just temporarily delayed. We had to wait nearly a decade for the IRA to disarm. It’s not reasonable for the chuckies to expect everyone else to stick to deadlines when they have a poor record of doing so themselves. What’s that SF used to say about artificially imposed deadlines ?
Maze Stadium = OUT;
Thank christ. The Maze stadium idea is rubbish. Put the stadium in our largest city, already.
Irish Language Act = OUT;
Impacts the 1/10th of SF voters who speak the language to any significant degree, and even then who don’t use it daily.
Parades Commission = OUT;
I recollect that the nationalists opposed Parades Commission recommendations on several occasions.
Changes to Education = OUT.
SF’s disastrous mishandling of this issue pretty much guaranteed this.
THANK YOU SINN FEIN. THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE DELIVERED.
What is it you people think this is, a case of Sinn Fein (a minority party) making a wish list that everyone else has to agree to ? That’s not how it’s going to work. The future of this country will be an agreed future. You work out compromises, you negotiate, you provide a bit of give and take. You’ll never have a serious political movement which throws it’s rattle out of the pram as soon as they realize their wishes won’t be met.
Powersharing does not mean that unionism has to become a doormat, anymore than SF must become a doormat. The mischaracterisation of the problems here as some kind of a unionist veto show how deep the misunderstanding runs. SF’s position gives them the power to veto absolutely anything the DUP decides that it wants. That they have found no opportunities to exercise this veto reflects on their strategic choices, not those of unionism. People contributing to this thread suggested that the old Stormont unionism has returned. Given that most things the Executive does require SF’s assent, I don’t see how this is the case.
Perhaps SF’s problem here is their presentation of devolution as a means to achieve a nationalist tribal wishlist, the Maze Shrine, the ILA, etc. The setup at Stormont effectively means that neither side can get their tribal wishlists through without the consent of the other. It looks like the DUP figured this out before SF did.
Comrade: I think most people would agree with most of your post if the process could start with unfinished business finished! Get to the stage where things that were agreed are delivered and start from there! But unionism seems bent on using what should be a progressive system to block a real key aspect of how the GFA was sold to nationalists. The wishlist is also just your convenient exageration. Its about common sense and perception, and the DUP are getting it all wrong. I’m just making the point that in the long term, SF can make capital out of this, and if they win THAT argument, then the union is dead. Maybe, just maybe, they are being the clever ones! I’m a small ‘r’ republican in that I despise violence, but there’s more than one way of proving a place is un-governable.
Deal or no deal! Get noel edmonds over to sort it all out. Maybe he could do a political swap shop so marty and robbo could exchange parts of their respective ‘wishlists’. No, it won’t work. Edmonds and robbo would get on great judging by their penchant for the nice shirt tucked into the designer jeans combo, leaving marty feeling left out. You would never get our marty wearing a salmon shirt/pink blouse!!
Nice post comrade. As you rightly say, SF have refused to budge:
- P and J: council still exists
- Education: Ruane is clueless and is attempting to run a dictatorship
- Maze: No shrine no stadium
- Irish Language: potentially the greatest waste of money of any proposal.
SF make no attempt to make their policies acceptable to unionists. Hence, they get rejected…
Agh: so its an avowed position of unionism to ignore the needs and yes, wishes, of a massive proportion of ‘their own’ people. And Comrade wonders why some see this as a return to old-style uionism! Keep it up, that mindset will see joint sovereignty before you can say ‘no, no, no’.
#
Agh: so its an avowed position of unionism to ignore the needs and yes, wishes, of a massive proportion of ‘their own’ people. And Comrade wonders why some see this as a return to old-style uionism! Keep it up, that mindset will see joint sovereignty before you can say ‘no, no, no’.
Posted by Mayoman on Jun 03, 2008 @ 09:23 PM
Maybe SF would have better luck if they didnt ignore the needs and wishes of the larger proportion of “their own” people.
They ignore unionists on education, on the Army council, on a voluntary coalition, on parades etc. Little wonder SF are alone and feeling it
I think the fact that they are in govt in an agreed structure that, at least today, cannot be changed without the coonsent of a majority of ALL the people of NI is quite a move. Until joint sovereignty arrives anyway.
#
I think the fact that they are in govt in an agreed structure that, at least today, cannot be changed without the coonsent of a majority of ALL the people of NI is quite a move. Until joint sovereignty arrives anyway.
Posted by Mayoman on Jun 03, 2008 @ 09:39 PM
Errr.. that was always the position. NI cant leave the Union unless the citizens agree. You think this was something new?? LOL you have been well n truly bought by the shinners!
More funny you thought/think England’s patience was/is endless! They have no use for you and are disengafing. And I can just see you gifting them the opportunity!
More funny you thought/think England’s patience was/is endless! They have no use for you and are disengafing. And I can just see you gifting them the opportunity!
Posted by Mayoman on Jun 03, 2008 @ 09:48 PM
Anything else you want to read out of your SF manual ? Maybe you should go back to the one of outbreeding.
Time SF steeped up to the mark. We want academic selection, voluntary coalition, Army council gone, parades dealt with.
When youre ready to talk Im sure Peter will listen
Comrade Stalin
Some strong language there, ‘you people’ and ‘Sinn Fein (a minority party)’! You are certainly letting us know how you perceive Nationalist parties and their electorate. I can’t see any Sinn Fein wishlist but there’s NO doubt that ANY thing they propose in the Assembly is vetoed from the start by those elements within Unionism that are driven solely by sectarianism. The DUP know that their grassroots are still largely opposed to powersharing and coalition government so ANYTHING that seeks to give the Shinners credence or EVEN agreeing with them is still seen as a weakness within large swathes of Unionism.
1. WHY are Unionists, especially the DUP, opposed to devolved Policing & Justice? Because the thought of a Nationalist, God Forbid a Shinner, in charge of departments that Unionists controlled for decades threatens the very existence and stability of the Northern State for Unionists. It is tantamount to SURRENDER for many of them. However a ‘government’ without control of these is a phoney government.
2. The Maze Stadium. Common sense shows that it is the ONLY viable place to locate a stadium in the wider Belfast conorbation. Those areas in Belfast that Unionists prefer effectively disinfranchise Nationalists in the city, they are NOT neutral. Also many Unionists only want THEIR version of history to be documented. They point blank refuse to acknowledge or accept that Republicans/Nationalists are entitled to theirs. The Hunger Strikes were an important part of Irish/British history and future generations have every right to read and learn about them. The ‘Terrorist Shrine’ excuse is bunkum. Take a walk around Belfast and Council Properties. They ARE shrines to Unionism, English Monarchy and the British Military. There are NO ‘Official’ Nationalist symbols worth talking about in Belfast. Likewise at Stormont so where’s this ‘agreed future’ you talk about? Where are the recognitions or mentions that 45% of the population see themselves as Irish?
3. Irish Language Act. Again certain Unionists continue to refer to it as a ‘leprechaun’ language. One of the oldest languages and cultures in Europe is derided by people who can’t see past their own prejudices. The EU, Scottish & Welsh Assemblies have gone overboard to ensure that ‘minority’ and ‘regional languages’ survive and thrive. While rsepected international linguists have decided that Ulster Scots is, and NEVER has been, a language it also deserves recognition as it is important to many people. I have no problem with budget constraints but to cut the language off altogether is seen as sectarian by Nationalists.
4. Parades Commission. Unionists wanted it’s abolition and got it with strong input from local councils on local parades. That is seen by many Nationalists as carte blanche for Loyal Order parades ANYWHERE. Given the history of Unionist Councils it is a disastrous and backward step. The spectre of Drumcree & Ormeau Road look large again.
5. Education. Granted the handling could have been better.
What’s amazing is how quickly this thread has degenerated into a massive dummy-spitting episode!
Shinners here are saying Unionists are evil sectarian bigots who have already rebuilt the old Stormont in 15 months. Despite the Unionists having an overall majority of only 2, no capacity to push through any decision needing legislation without SF consent, and no control over criminal justice and policing, they’ve rebuilt Stormont overnight. Yeah, right, and the B Specials are going to kick in my door tomorrow. I wish Shinners wouldn’t say ‘Nationalists’ when they meant ‘Shinners’; I don’t see the SDLP running off to join the high-wire act.
Meanwhile, the Unionists on this thread are running around in full bigot mode! “How dare those uppity fenians want some decisions to go their way?!?!?! “Don’t like our Irish Language Act decision? Well, we’ll feed you all on gruel from now on, you long-haired popish agitators. Next thing, you’ll be wanting rights and stuff”, cry the Unionists.
Folks, this is just politics. Silly brinkmanship politics being pushed by people who know better, that only works because people like you are willing to get all excited about it.
At the end of the day, SF are co-architects of the system of government in place here. They signed up to it less than 18 months ago. The problem is, they aren’t very good at operating it. Having spent 10 years outmanoeuvering the Unionists during an extended period of end-game negotiations, they’ve now found that the DUP are better than they are at the whole running a government thing. And it’s no surprise; the Shinners were revolutionaries; they were good at broad sweeps of principle. The DUP were parliamentarians; they’re good at operating the machinery of government. No party in NI has less experience of actually running things than SF.
The Shinners have made a tactical mistake in turning from being too passive to too aggressive much too quickly. The Shinners have basically concocted a deadline of 5th June for major policy changes from the DUP, and the announce their deadline on, what, the 2nd or maybe even 3rd? Be serious, no-one can actually deliver in so short a time-scale. A threat to walk needs to be built up slowly, racheted step-by-step. Forcing the issue in a ludicrously short time-frame is basically like forcing a screw off it’s thread – if Robinson doesn’t roll over, either you back down or you collapse the government. The Shinners haven’t left themselves a whole lot of wriggle room and that’s a bad way to negotiate.
The DUP have played the Shinners off the pitch for the past year. It’s no surprise. In some ways it’s very annoying, as we have a small but decisive majority for a centre-left social agenda in the Assembly, but nothing progressive is actually happening because the Shinners have been rolling over to Robinson all the time. But ultimately, that’s politics. Either the Shinners will get better at it or the electorate will dump them for someone who’s better.
But let’s keep all this in perspective. Regardless of who blinks first in the great Mexican stand-off, no-one will die, or be carted off to jail by the secret police, or have their house ransacked. All these issues are, in the really grand scheme of things, small-fry stuff. Are they stuff worth risking the economy, inward investment, political and social stability and even a return to violence for? I think not, and I reckon the electorate don’t think so either.
how you perceive Nationalist parties and their electorate
Only one Nationalist party is involved in this childish charade, so let’s get over the silly persecution complex, shall we? This is the classic Shinner response to any sort of criticism: play the tribal card and pretend you’re being persecuted. It’s the same when anyone criticises Catriona Ruane – it’s supposed to be because she’s a Republican and a woman, not because she’s screwed up the best chance of abolishing selection in a generation. No-one is persecuting Sinn Féin except for themselves and their own political incapacity.
Why not try to defend Sinn Féin’s tactics in terms of what they might deliver for the population? Oh, sorry, you can’t do that because they’re stupid, so you’ll have to resort to claiming persecution. I get it now.
Oh, and your Maze comment is spectacularly stupid. I don’t really care where they build Fisher-Price Stadium, but the idea that the Ormeau Park, whose surrounds have seen their Catholic population boom over the past decade, is a cold house for Nationalists is hysterical.
not because she’s screwed up the best chance of abolishing selection in a generation.
- see there we are. Nationalists complain about not getting their own way. At what point did they accommodate Unionists (and many catholics) who wish to have some form of academic selection retained. Its ok for nationalists do ignore unionist wishes.
Sammy Morse & observer.
I see you didn’t address most of my points!
1. Why are Unionists so opposed to devolved policing & justice?
2. Why are Unionist symbols the only ones we see in Belfast?
3. Whether you sympathise with the Hunger Strikers and their demands OR see them as suicidal terrorists was that period NOT an important time in Irish/British history?
4. Who said Catriona Ruane was above criticism?
5. Ask the Nationalist football teams and fans about their experiences in Ormeau Park from Loyalist elements in the Lower Ravenhill before commenting!
1. Why are Unionists so opposed to devolved policing & justice?
I don’t know. Ask them. I’m in favour of devolving policing and justice at the earliest reasonable date, but I don’t consider the issue of remotely enough importance to bring down the Executive.
2. Why are Unionist symbols the only ones we see in Belfast?
I don’t know, ask them. I think a Henry Joy statue in the City Hall grounds would look rather fetching, myself.
3. Whether you sympathise with the Hunger Strikers and their demands OR see them as suicidal terrorists was that period NOT an important time in Irish/British history?
Of course it was. What’s your point?
4. Who said Catriona Ruane was above criticism?
Many people, in many threads related to education in Slugger over the past year. Admittedly, they’ve become ever fewer as the extent of Catastrophe Catriona’s fiasco has become clear.
5. Ask the Nationalist football teams and fans about their experiences in Ormeau Park from Loyalist elements in the Lower Ravenhill before commenting!
Have a look at the names on the electoral register around North/South Parade, Ardenlee Avenue, Ravenhill Reach and, these days, even down around London Road before commenting. A national stadium would be well policed and I’m sure it would be in the interests of all concerned to see elements intent on trouble dealt with robustly. Only Sinn Féin have the chutzpah to benefit electorally from rapid demographic change in an area while simultaneously saying it’s a cold house for Catholics! Get real, the persecution whinge stopped working a long time ago.
Lurig, you don’t speak for all nationalists and republicans, so don’t go around pretending you do. Sinn Féin are guilty of bad politics and picked the wrong time for a game of call my bluff. If this is how Sinn Féin whinge with the DUP I hate to see what Fianna Fáil would do to them if they ever end up in a coalition government with them.
Observer
“We want academic selection, voluntary coalition, Army council gone, parades dealt with”
The Parades issue is already being dealt with by the Parades Commission. Lord Ashdown and his review committee have made it very clear that the Parades commission stays until P&J;has been devolved. If Unionists don’t like, that’s tough -there is nothing they can do about it.
It’s obvious that the DUP have outplayed SF to date in the assembly. Although, it’s also fair to say that they have had more opportunity to “thwart” proposals from SF to date than vice versa.
However, I have to laugh at those Unionists who come on here as if they have gained everything and Nationalists have gained nothing.
While Unionists block P&J;, Nationalists can ensure that the Parades Commission stays in place.
While Unionists can ensure that there is no stadium at the Maze, Nationalists can ensure that Windsor Park is not refurbished or, in fact, that there is no new stadium at all if they wish – the biggest losers out of this by far will be the IFA and the NI team.
It’s clear that the DUP have played the game better than SF over the last year.
However, it’s also clear that the days of ‘croppy lie down’ are long gone. SF are in a position to block quite a few things that the Unionist community want.
Frankly, given the way the DUP have behaved to date, I think they are perfectly justified in exercising their veto.
By the way, how can you demand a voluntary coalition? – the word voluntary is a bit of a giveaway.
Sammy morse…..There has always been nationalists living on the upper ormeau road and the upper ravenhill road. Those massive schools have been there for donkeys years! Personally, I think most of the opposition for the ormeau park site will come from local residents affraid of the traffic conjestion. It already is extremely conjested. Although it would be wrong to dismiss out of hand the sectarian problems associated with the lower ravenhill road, my lady’s road etc…
Still trying to get in front of this news item. I read this thread to get an SDLP insight intrigued that McDonnell stated the terms of the deal would be dictated by Robinson. I saw nothing to back this up, it was just a statement with no elaboration or detail. Weak.
I do however think that in the big picture “status quo” issue may indeed be working in Unionist favour for the short term at least. But Sinn Fein are definately firmly still in the game and may have a long term advantage.