Musical chairs
Sir Reg Empey is hoping to attract Scottish University graduates to jobs in Northern Ireland and the Republic’s Education Minister Batt O’Keeffe is hoping to attract Northern Ireland teachers to the Republic.
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This is a welcome initiative and I hope it is a successful one. The brain drain is a marked phenomenon, but it is healthy for talented people from Northern Ireland to move throughout the UK and play a full role in the success of the country. To offset this movement we simultaneously must seek to attract talented people from the rest of the United Kingdom, to contribute to this region of their country.
Surely what he really means is all this people from NI who to go Scotland for university?
The UUP have been trying to halt the brain drain of talent and Sir Reg said Scotland was a good place to start stemming the tide as he says a large proportion of Northern Irish students are studying at universities here.
Given that it’s the UUP – and the DUP and the grand red neck clan of unionists – which mostly contributed to the brain drain of young Northerners flying the coop and heading for Scotland and the South, then I suppose it’s incumbent on Empey to try and bring them back. What makes him think they’ll come back is another matter. A
Not necessarily. The initiative is aimed at all graduates. The slogan is ‘C’mon Over’ not ‘C’mon Back’.
I have to laugh at poor Chekov’s post – talk about labouring the point ‘about the rest of the UK’ and ‘this region of their country’. Methinks the lad doeth protest too much….
He obviously didn’t read the bit about Empey heading to Dublin also….
“We are not confining our efforts in Scotland we will move on to England and Dublin,” he said. “But we are just piloting it here because there is a significant density of Northern Irish students here. It is inevitable that we will get students from anywhere and some will be from Northern Ireland. It depends who is going onto the stands.”
“Given that it’s the UUP – and the DUP and the grand red neck clan of unionists – which mostly contributed to the brain drain of young Northerners flying the coop and heading for Scotland and the South, then I suppose it’s incumbent on Empey to try and bring them back. What makes him think they’ll come back is another matter.”
Or maybe it had more to do with republicans and their campaigns of terrorism and destablisation. After all, most of those lost to the brain drain left to seek greater normality within other regions of the UK.
“He obviously didn’t read the bit about Empey heading to Dublin also.”
Seeking talent from throughout the British Isles seems sensible enough to me. I fully recognise the inter-relatedness of the southern Irish with the rest of their counterparts in the archipelago.
You’re a hoot, Chekov! The rest of the British Isles – that is so funny. You should take up a career in comedy.
And as for your witty riposte regarding republicans and terrorism, of course that had me rolling around the floor. The sheer myopia of it was hilarious. How you made that remark with a straight face remembering that the campaign of terrorism in NI was begun by the unionist UVF in 1966 and all that followed, pogroms etc, all that stuff which is designed to attract bright students to stay and pursue careers, how you said that with a straight face was worthy of an award.
“We still have an inadequate supply of teachers. Irish might be a problem for some teachers in the North but we have a five-year period where we will help them to access the working knowledge and the Irish language that will assimilate them into the school” – Batt O’Keefe
Looks like the jobs in the South for NI Teachers are still only coming with pre-conditions – surely it is time to do away with this practice that would be completely unneccesary in the vast majority of employment cases….
For your information, Democratic, study of the Irish language is an essential part of the curriculum and thus it is completely necessary in the vast majority of employment cases [primary teachers].
It is an essential part of the curriculum because of a number of reasons. You should understand one of them perfectly, given your nom de plume, the Irish language is an official language of Ireland, according to the 1937 Constitution which was endorsed by a resounding majority of the people in a democratic referendum.
Play the ball not the man folks
Nothing undemocratic in expecting people to be able to have some fluency in the first language of the state. At a time when the vast majority of the world’s languages are expected to disappear over the next century, surely we should preserve all we can?
“The sheer myopia of it was hilarious. How you made that remark with a straight face remembering that the campaign of terrorism in NI was begun by the unionist UVF in 1966 and all that followed, pogroms etc, all that stuff which is designed to attract bright students to stay and pursue careers, how you said that with a straight face was worthy of an award.”
The Provos and their associates more than played their part in establishing the conditions you describe leading to student flight Concubhar – remembering too that today most Catholic students stay in Ireland to study while most Prod undergrads are the ones that head east….
Maybe people who feel more of a connection with Britain are happier to move there. Although not really sure what conditions today have to do with the conditions pre-1997/1994.
Yes Concubhar/Garabaldy – Irish is the official first language of the ROI – but not NI where Mr O’Keefe wishes to attract talent – perhaps a good idea would be not to establish unnecessary obstacles before he even starts…just a thought – It does appear in the very same article also that this “essential requirement” has been waived on several occasions when staff has been in short supply – makes you wonder just how essential this requirement really is…
There is a flexible approach being taken on that requirement, with a number of years to get ready (and more flexible than some would like). But there is nothing wrong with the requirement in and of itself.
“There is a flexible approach being taken on that requirement, with a number of years to get ready (and more flexible than some would like). But there is nothing wrong with the requirement in and of itself”
If you like Garabaldy I suppose – but it does make it clear exactly which community Mr O’Keefe envisages his applicants coming from….
It’s a simple thing Democratic. Whoever seeks those jobs will need to have the appropriate qualifications – the fact is that there’s a bit of flexibility there in terms of learning Irish so there is no obstace – as they would when applying for any other job. It’s not a question of ‘which community’ as anyone can learn Irish. If anyone wants a job teaching in the south, well anyone will have to sooner or later learn Irish. That’s where they’re going to be teaching, where Irish is a part of the curriculum.
There is the question as to whether Southern youngsters ahve anything to learn from Protestant teachers who cannot cut it in their own Premier League.
The Dublin minister should discuss things with the monkey grinder (the British Minister) or at least the real monkey (The deputy) not with a discredited Provo groupie.
I always laugh at he low life who makeup second rate teachers. There always seems to be a glut or a shortage. Can they not pick praties in Scotland or go winkle picking with illegal Chinese. Why inflight them on the inner city children, or back immigrants that are not really the port of choice for good teachers anywhere?
The Provos and their associates more than played their part in establishing the conditions you describe leading to student flight Concubhar
I don’t deny that D – all I was pointing out was Chekov’s selective vision of the past.
I do think that the failure of unionist leadership also contributed enormously to the brain drain….
You miss the point Concubhar – Mr O’keefe is approaching NI based teachers – not the other way around – he is offering posts to them to teach i’m sure various subjects – none of which would require a working knowledge of Irish Gaelic if you are honest – the very fact that the article mentions that this “essential requirement” has been waived on several previous occasions speaks to me about how necessary it really is….let’s be honest here Concubhar how many good teachers from the unionist community do you think would be interested in such a strings attached offer – unnecessary enforcement of a requirement like this will do nothing but make Irish Gaelic out to be a “cultural weapon” in Unionist eyes.
Democratic,
I would be genuinely intriged to know how you propose that teachers who have no knowledge of Irish teach the language?
Does the right of the citizen to learn not outway the right of the teacher not to learn?
“I don’t deny that D – all I was pointing out was Chekov’s selective vision of the past.
I do think that the failure of unionist leadership also contributed enormously to the brain drain….”
Agreed Concubhar.
“I do think that the failure of unionist leadership also contributed enormously to the brain drain….”
But not as much as republican destruction of the fabric of society here.
“I would be genuinely intriged to know how you propose that teachers who have no knowledge of Irish teach the language?”
Well obviously they would not teach Irish Language – do ROI pupils take lessons in Geography, Maths, Physics, P.E. etc etc in Gaelic also – outside of dedicated Irish medium schools?
Perhaps part of the problem here is lack of detail on the posts Mr O’keefe is looking to fill maybe….primary or Irish medium posts would be a different scenario I suppose.
“Perhaps part of the problem here is lack of detail on the posts Mr O’keefe is looking to fill maybe….primary or Irish medium posts would be a different scenario I suppose.”
Indeed.
I have no interest in Irish being used as a cultural weapon – I just don’t want the involvement of unionists in the education system and their fetish about Irish being used to compromise the language’s status within education south of the border – or anywhere else for that matter. Knowledge of Irish is no burden on unionists – though I appreciate that successive generations of unionist leaders and some sections of republicanism may have contributed to its negative profile in their midst.
I don’t know Chekov – I’m sure that it’s pretty evenly balanced. Or it could be tipping in unionism’s direction….
Surely a working knowledge of Ulster Scots should be compulsory for all teaching jobs in Ulster and Scotland. Southern ireland can hold on to its gaelic, even if (and let’s get real) only a tiny minority of Southern Irish can actually speak it.
all this talk abuot having to learn Irish is absurd, Irish is dead, here and in the Republic. When was the last time the Irish prime minister spoke at any length in Irish, he doesnt even do that in the Irish parliament.
Not wishing to open another can of worms Concubhar – and I can understand your motivations as an Irish Language enthusiast with good intentions – what nobody should attempt though is to force their cultural activities onto an unreceptive audience in the year 2008 – be it the Orange Order or Ulster Scots types on Irish folk in NI or Irish language enthusiasts on Ulster-British folks in NI. Using employment as a playing card while arguably reasonable enough in the ROI among the faithful will never be tolerated in NI nor (I would hope) in a theoretical United Ireland. Much like the old swearing of allegiance to the British state oath in certain careers up here – compulsary Irish would be seen in the same vein by Unionists as the former was by Nationalists – you may not agree but I promise you that is how it is. Left to grow organically views and stances like this may change but it must happen naturally over time.
Please do not take that as any kind of insult though as none was intended.
Driftwood,
I am sure in working class areas of Glasgow a knowledge of scots is a must but somehow I dont see teachers here, the majority of whom I presume are protestant and the majority of those may be ‘ulster-scots’ going for it.
I got the impression from speaking to protestant parents that for the most part they did not believe that Ulster-Scots exists (not my position) and I have dont know anyone who wants it taught to their kids, maybe I am wrong here but I would be very interested in finding out different.
observer,
Last week, he does it all the time. The new one is a ‘Culchie’ ye see.
All I can say about Observer’s 3:38pm post is that he’s not been very observant of the recently elected Taoiseach’s choice of language. The first part of his first speech – and not just the ‘cúpla focal’ – as FF leader designate was in Irish. His oration at the graveside of former president, Paddy Hillery, was as Gaeilge and his first speech in the Dáil as Taoiseach was also in Irish.
I think that it’s high time for unionists to end their campaign against the Irish language. They can call it Ulster Gaelic if they want and describe it as a British language, on a par with Welsh and Scots Gaelic – but they can’t airbrush it out of the picture. They may as well accept Irish/Ulster Gaelic and get on with it – it’s far cheaper to maintain than it is to police the Orange parades….
“They may as well accept Irish/Ulster Gaelic and get on with it – it’s far cheaper to maintain than it is to police the Orange parades….”
Accepting it (for those you want it) is one thing Concubhar – being told you need to speak it to get Government employment to potentially work/teach in completely unrelated areas is quite another if not in the ROI it always will be in NI…..
Batt O’Keeffe – is that a typo or is it his real name?
“I think that it’s high time for unionists to end their campaign against the Irish language.”
Would they still be Unionists (in the ‘Ulster’) sense?
Surely being anti-Gaelic is a fundamental of Ulster Unionism (but certainely not of UK unionism with a small n).
Would any unionist politican who adopted a less than beligerent stance towards Irish / Gaelic survive any election any more than a if a nationalist came out as anti-Gaelic?
I doubt it sincerly and absolutely.
How many different languages are their all over Europe. People on the continent don’t perceive the next language down the road as a threat. What is wrong with us on this island ?
I think that it’s high time for unionists to end their campaign against the Irish language. They can call it Ulster Gaelic if they want and describe it as a British language, on a par with Welsh and Scots Gaelic – but they can’t airbrush it out of the picture ———–
Yes we can, its going nowhere
Ted,
“People on the continent don’t perceive the next language down the road as a threat”
I disagree, people often do percieve languages as a threat or that their languages are threatened.
France for example strives to stamp out Breton, Basque and Corsican and they are not one bit embarrassed by it.
Language issues are not unique, in fact in Europe they will be more widespread, it is just that people here are not that knowledgable of the issues.
For example, most people in Italy are not native speakers of Italian. This causes an issue or two, but most English speakers would be unaware of this.
Would any unionist politican who adopted a less than beligerent stance towards Irish / Gaelic survive any election any more than a if a nationalist came out as anti-Gaelic?
Many southern politicians – and some northern nationalists – get elected despite expressing negativity towards the Irish language. I don’t know about unionists being required to be anti-Irish – I think that politicians have talked themselves into this mindset and that it’s going to take time for them to emerge from it – but I believe that it’s incumbent on unionist politicians to lead the way. Otherwise they may as well throw their hat at the ‘powersharing experiment’.
“the recently elected Taoiseach’s”
I don’t follow southern politics closely, but I’m sure I would have heard had Cowen actually been elected. :-/
“How many different languages are their all over Europe. People on the continent don’t perceive the next language down the road as a threat. What is wrong with us on this island ?”
The answer to that will differ depending on who or more specifically “which” side you aim the question at……
The whole language thing is tied with culture which is in turn tied with long standing grievances and hostility – it is not the language in itself…remember the recent debacle of the statue of the former New Zealand P.M. which just had to be removed because he was a Orangeman and was thus offensive to local Nationalists and their Sinn Fein representatives?
Ted leddy
“How many different languages are their all over Europe. People on the continent don’t perceive the next language down the road as a threat. What is wrong with us on this island ?”
Sorry but that statement is simply wrong. Linguistic issues/divisions/rivalries exist in a number of places in continental Europe. There is a nice place called Belgium for a start. In Spain you have significant tensions over language matters. France isn’t exactly known for generosity in the field of minority languages either.
“Many southern politicians – and some northern nationalists”
Names!!! I want names I tell you.
I only one I can think of was Paddy Harte, he was the only TD to oppose TG4, he lost his seat though I am sure there were other issues.
In the north, well there is Martin Morgan but he is no longer active.
I am sure there are many others but I really was refering to people open about it, pro-anglicisation and proud of it.
Cowen was elected Taoiseach in the same manner Brown was elected PM of Great Britain (that’s the island to the east).
“I think that politicians have talked themselves into this mindset and that it’s going to take time for them to emerge from it – but I believe that it’s incumbent on unionist politicians to lead the way. Otherwise they may as well throw their hat at the ‘powersharing experiment’.
Don’t think you’ll get too many takers for this line of thinking…..being a lot of balls and that!
Eadbhainn Mac a’ Futaire
It would appear that I stand corrected. I was under the impression that language was a non issue in Europe post EEC/EU days. With the open borders you could drive 100 Ks through eastern and central Europe and pass 5-10 different language zones and nobody seems to mind.
Hey thats a thought ! maybe we should get rid of the border on this island and nobody will care about language.
I’m on the western island in the British Isles and last time I checked Brown is my PM.
Ted,
“maybe we should get rid of the border on this island and nobody will care about language”.
There may be some thruth it that, but 1. many nationalists care alot more more about the Irish language than a united Ireland.
2. unionist, the majority, dont and will never want a united Ireland.
Are you American? Statos Unidos?
Eadbhainn Mac a’ Futaire
No Im a Dub and Im just being naive but sometimes I think, borders divide people, you take away the borders and you take away the divisions. Seems to have worked in Europe and their differences 1914-1991 were significantly grander than ours 1969-1998.