Musical chairs
Sir Reg Empey is hoping to attract Scottish University graduates to jobs in Northern Ireland and the Republic’s Education Minister Batt O’Keeffe is hoping to attract Northern Ireland teachers to the Republic.
Advertise
-
Books
-
Have we Learned our own Lessons? Book Review of John Brewer’s Peace Processes
Northern Ireland’s peace process has been promoted as an international success story. The Republic’s Department of Foreign Affairs has its Conflict Resolution Unit, which aims to disseminate the ‘lessons’ of the Northern Ireland peace process. And some of the prominent players in our peace process have travelled abroad to other troubled spots to share their [...] read our review »
-
The Creative Class and Northern Ireland
As part of NICVA’s series of masterclasses from its Centre for Economic Empowerment project, there was a morning seminar on the topic of the “creative class” (as popularised by Richard Florida) and its applicability to Northern Ireland. The agenda was to: Explain Richard Florida’s idea of the “creative class” and the link between economic outcomes [...] read our review »
-
Learning from 1798?: Northern Ireland’s Upcoming Decade of Commemorations
Last year, the Lilliput Press released a new extended edition of Tom Dunne’s Ewart-Biggs Memorial Prize winning book, Rebellions: Memoir, Memory and 1798. First published in 2004, Dunne’s book provoked considerable controversy with its critique of the ‘commemorationist’ history that Dunne believed dominated the 1998 commemorations of the 1798 Rebellion. The book blasted the involvement [...] read our review »
-
“Hey thats a thought ! maybe we should get rid of the border on this island and nobody will care about language”
Good idea – then you good just tell the f*ckers they had to speak Gaelic – or they wouldn’t get a job! – where have I heard that one before…..
What was that term again oh yes “cultural weapon”
Ted,
Apologies!!
Here in the States there is a law that qualified teachers from outside the jurisdiction (Canadians etc who have a green card) have 6 years to become US citizens otherwise they lose their teaching certification.
Consequently I feel a 5 year “window” to obtain a working knowledge of Gaelic is not unreasonalbe of the language requirement is to be maintained. Here in the US most of the teachers in any school district are at elementary level (primary) where Math, Spelling Reading etc is covered by one teacher. I would suspect that in the ROI Gaelic is also offered making some knowledge of the language necessary for most teachers. Folks like “Democratic” seem to think every teacher is specialized in a given subject. This is only true at High School (Grammar/Secondary) level.
“Folks like “Democratic” seem to think every teacher is specialized in a given subject. This is only true at High School (Grammar/Secondary) level.”
Yeah “USA” I did say this too in a past post – perhaps you read it – or perhaps not…..where I said clarification on the roles needing filled would help…..on the rest of your post I think much like Concubhar you have missed the fact and ROI representative is approaching NI based teachers not the other way around……
The Republic can use whatever criteria they like to hire their teachers, I’ll not lose any sleep over it. Maybe they don’t need that many extra teachers from NI so they think they can attract all they need from the small percentage of the population with a working knowledge of Gaelic added to the probably considerably larger number who would happily learn it in the time frame given (or not bother and quit after that time?)
Luckily for them every action taken doesn’t seem to require an equality impact assessment.
“Hey thats a thought ! maybe we should get rid of the border on this island and nobody will care about language” —
If Ireland wants to rejoin the UK, then I think we should consider that
Batt O’Keeffe.
O’Keeffe is a bogstandard Irish name. 80 of them in the Springfield phone directory.
Batt is short for Bartholomew.
I wish my folks called me Batt, for rhyming reasons.
Millhouse, wish he was called Mitthouse.
Ted Leddy: maybe we should get rid of the border on this island and nobody will care about language.
That’s the border between the UK and the RoI you’re talking about, of course?
I think much like Concubhar you have missed the fact and ROI representative is approaching NI based teachers not the other way around……
Democratic: You ignore the oversupply of teachers in the north, which is arising as a result of the closure of smaller schools. I think that you have to accept that there’s a basic Irish language requirement in the southern education system which has to be met by all teachers, no matter where they come from.
As for your ‘balls’ comment. Perhaps I didn’t make myself as clear as I would have wished; I am tired and heart sore of hearing attacks by unionist politicians on the Irish language and Irishness in general. They are sharing power with two nationalist parties and if they can’t show the minimum of respect towards the electorate which elected their partners in government, I suggest they should throw their hat at it as this is going nowhere. It will eventually reach nowhere, sooner I fear rather than later. I think they should turn around and say, if they have a phobia about Irishness, which is what it appears to be, that Irish/Ulster Gaelic is as British a language as Scots Gaelic and Welsh and that its part of their heritage too. They are in the dominant position and should show some generosity on the subject. If not generosity, some political nous and stop allowing the rednecks dictate policy.
I’m on the western island in the British Isles and last time I checked Brown is my PM.
Posted by Chekov on May 29, 2008 @ 04:53 PM
Poor Chekov. You can’t even vote for Brown or any of his colleagues so how could you think that he’s your PM? Voters in Scotland and Wales can vote for Brown or Cameron and that choice is not available in NI. However Fianna Fáil are talking about organising in the north and my bet is that they’ll be standing here before Labour…..
“I think that you have to accept that there’s a basic Irish language requirement in the southern education system which has to be met by all teachers, no matter where they come from.”
I do accept that it is there Concubhar – what I do not accept is its neccesity in all areas – plus this requirement has been dropped in the past when expedient – look we are going around in circles here and I have absolutely no wish to repeat my views again and again making exactly the same point – but perhaps as Beano said it is of no Unionist concern what is required to work as a teacher in the ROI – and lets face it as I said before good teachers from a Unionist background will have absolutely no interest in Mr O’Keefe’s conditioned offer – you cannot expect any other if you are honest with yourself – or maybe that was an intention all along – I would hope not though.
But just don’t expect such legislation to ever find a home in Northern Ireland or in any “former” Northern Ireland – it would be simply unacceptable outside of Irish medium schools and would open a can of worms right round the playing field…..
As for the second part of your post Concubhar – I personally fully back anyone to pursue their Irish Language rights pursuits so long as it does not infringe in any meaningful way on those who do share Irish cultural tendencies – obviously the issue of compulsary Irish in employment or education would meet that criteria though…..
Should read “do NOT share” – apologies.
“I think they should turn around and say, if they have a phobia about Irishness, which is what it appears to be, that Irish/Ulster Gaelic is as British a language as Scots Gaelic and Welsh and that its part of their heritage too.”
I had a friend at college who was the most enthusiastic Thatcherite and a fluent Welsh speaker.
Has anyone a link to some sort of schematic that offers a sense of the blending in of the Gealic dialects across Scotland and Ireland?
As a non-speaker I struggle a bit with the idea that the north channel would have represented a barrier between the development of dialects on the Scottish and Irish sides. As seaways were once more easily crossed than land it seems more intuitive that the “Irish” spoken along the Antrim and North Down coasts would be much more strongly related to the Gallic of the Islands than it would to the dialects of the interior and south. I’m nore inclinded to believe that the languages blend in like the Scandinavia’s, perhaps sharing words but using them differently (the time of breakfast seems particularly confusing in the Nordics).
The great majority of prods in Ulster live within a few miles of the sealanes back to Scotland. Get an A4 map of Ireland and a marker and draw a think line from the Waterside along the coast to Downpatrick, going up the navigable bit of the Bann en route. You’ll easily take in Coleraine, Larne, Carrick, Newtownabbey, Belfast, Holywood, Bangor, Donaghadee, Ards, Dundonald, Comber Killyleagh…most of prod land.
Are the connections between Island and N.Ireland Gaelic sufficient for prod students to claim they’re learning the language of their ancestors as much as the language of the dispossessed and grumpy natives? Thinking of Gaelic revival as a joint Scots/Irish project might help.
PS. Not all prod settlers were of the anglified lowland variety – plenty of Gallic speakers with Macs in their names.
PPS. re. the brain drain; prods have always send their children to Scottish universities. That’s how we imported eighteenth century secular republicanism into Ulster. Nothing wrong with maintaining that tradition provided they’ve something to come home for.
just read the article on regs adventures and it seems like a good proactive step. we hear lots of talk about building the economy and jobs etc from alot of people, but whos actually doing anything about it? im sure the people who see this as “‘Cheek’ of Stormont minister trying to lure Scottish graduates” would love a scottish minister to go off to other regions and do something to attract people to scotland.
jaffa,
the two languages, Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic, are basically the same. An Irish Gaelic speaker will understand most of what is being said to him in Scottish Gaelic, and vice versa. The languages changed in pronunciation because of the differing influences on each – Scottish Gaelic (and indeed Scots, and ultimately, Ulster Scots) was more heavily influenced by the Scandanavian countries, which used the Scottish isles as outposts on their journeys. The differences in spelling came about mainly because of a failure to standardise the dialects at an early enough stage.
As for you suggestion that ‘Prods’ be encouraged to learn the language of their ancestors, I heartily agree. It IS the language of their ancestors, and never belonged to any one side in a religous divide. Which Gaelic they learn, Irish or Scottish, does not matter. Learning a language is a fulfilling, enriching thing, and I believe it should be part of the school curriculum, from nursery onwards.
Learning a language is a fulfilling, enriching thing, and I believe it should be part of the school curriculum, from nursery onwards.
It was taught in my school. English.
If people want to learn a foreign language like French, Irish, Spanish etc then that should be a choice at secondary schools.
Encouragement is fine Seimi and I am sure such an approach could bear fruit – but it should never be forced or made compulsary one way or another – a one way ticket to conflict surely?
Low quality Protestant teachers will lower the standard in the South and kill the Golden Egg Celtic Tiger that pays for diversity.
One other linguistic thing, chappies: In the self styled UK, many/most students don’t take English (Cromwell’s language) at A level. Maybe the Prots should be made do an English test too.
English is compulsory in the Leaving Cert.
Driftwood – Ok, learning a SECOND language should be on the curriculum. And, Irish ISN’T a foreign language, unless you live outside of Ireland. Perhaps you live in England? Or did you learn English as a second language?
Do you consider everything you were taught at school as being ‘forced’ upon you Democratic? The teaching of a language, any language, at school should be encouraged as a positive thing. How could it be anything else? I agree with you that using the wrong methods, making it appear that you are forced to do something, could and in all probability, would cause conflict. If however it can be packaged as part of a shared culture and history, rather than a divisive, them and us, pseudo-religous thing, it could work?
Dave – why do you assume that ANY of the teachers who MIGHT decide to work in the south would be ‘low quality’?
From my experience living in england the UK education system turns out school leavers that can barely count. bar the immigranbt populations who know much of their mother tongue I have only ever met a handfull of English people that can speak another language, most dont even have the basic knowledge of a language other than english. Basic knowledge of history and geography is apalling overall , the history of scotland is particularly poorly known by the scottish people themselves. Maybe a more rounded education might be of benefit to these teachers going south. It might give them a bit of an eye opener and a job is also handy considering they’d be overqualified for the badly paid jobs theyd be forced to take in the North
Seimi
Many schools now insist on learning a second language. However, do you not think it would be more advantageous for pupils to learn another (foreign) European language,instead of Irish? GCSE Irish has a relatively small uptake, and GCE Irish even less so. Anyone who really wants to learn it could go to night school. Don’t forget, it’s English taxpayers that are paying for this to be taught.
Driftwood, do you see no personal or cultural advantage to learning the indigenous language of this country?
Languages such as French, Spanish etc. are not taught until post-primary level. What I am suggesting is that children are taught their own indigenous language first, starting at a much younger age. This makes learning other languages at a later stage much, much easier. What is your objection to the Irish language? Is it a purely financial one? Why should a child attend a night class to learn Irish?
Surely English is the indigenous language, not just of the UK (and RoI)but USA and many other countries. Do you think all North Americans should learn Cherokee? Or all Australians aboriginal. That is the natural outcome of your argument.
“GCSE Irish has a relatively small uptake”
Attempting to find a link but that is nonsence, even given the fact that Irish is not taught in State Schools it is still up there, I will find out.
Eaddhainn, It’s approximately 2,500 for GCSE and around 1000 for GCE.
Driftwood,
1. What is your source.
2. What are the stats for French.
Source is CCEA
I’ll try and post a link to the stats, actually that is more candidates than I initially thought.
Would it be compulsory in some Catholic schools?
“I agree with you that using the wrong methods, making it appear that you are forced to do something, could and in all probability, would cause conflict. If however it can be packaged as part of a shared culture and history, rather than a divisive, them and us, pseudo-religous thing, it could work?”
It possibly could Seimi – as long as it wasn’t compulsary – if it was made so – it really wouldn’t matter what way it was re-packaged I’m afraid….also I do tend to switch off when the old “indigenous” card is played…you must understand that for Unionists in Northern Ireland – their English language is indigenous or as close to it as is perfectly acceptable for them.
“Would it be compulsory in some Catholic schools?”
Not to GCSE, no.
French 3,500
Irish 2,500
Spanish 1, 500
German much smaller
So French is the biggest (with CCEA at least) and Irish 2nd at GCSE.
English, Maths etc would be over 10,000
Will post link when I can access
Driftwood,
Given that all schools do French and that only 40% of pupils have any oppurtunity to learn Irish it is not bad to my mind.
It should also be remembered that Gaelscoil pupils do an additional GCSE known as Gaeilge which is the Irish equivalent of GCSE English.
I would put forward the idea that State school pupils should have the OPTION of doing some sort of ‘Gaelic Studies’ GCSE, with only small amounts of spoken Irish / Scottish Gaelic, but focusing in on Irish and Scottish Highland history from a Gaelic perspective, Place-Names, Surnames etc.
I am sure the DUP would would resist such a thing in apocoliptic terms but I for one would see absolutely no threat to anyone and it could well help to bring down some mental barriers.
Here is the link, takes a bit of digging, but you should find the info.
http://www.ccea.org.uk/statistics/
Don’t think you’ll bet much uptake for that idea in an already overcrowded exam market Edbhainn
Rather than being an ‘indigenous’ language in the US, English is the pre-dominant language. Spanish is also widely spoken, as well as a smattering of other languages. There is a figure given on another thread somewhere, for Irish speakers in the US, but I can’t remember where. That is not to say that any of those languages are indigenous. They’re not. The indigenous language (or languages) would be the one(s) spoken by the indigenous people(s). I understand and agree that a large number of people in the north would regard English as their indigenous language, however, it was brought here by another people, and the original, indigenous language was systematically done away with, almost to the point of extinction. The fact that it survived, and indeed, is growing again, is surely one to be celebrated, rather than treated with suspicion, derision and out and out hostility.
‘I would put forward the idea that State school pupils should have the OPTION of doing some sort of ‘Gaelic Studies’ GCSE, with only small amounts of spoken Irish / Scottish Gaelic, but focusing in on Irish and Scottish Highland history from a Gaelic perspective, Place-Names, Surnames etc.’
I think this is an excellent idea. I really can’t see how anyone could object to a subject such as this. To know your own background, where your people come from, what they achieved, gives you such a grounding. It gives you a sense of who and what you are. That has to be good.
Sorry, the first line of my post was my opinion, based on my studies on the subject, rather than an established fact. Apologies for any misunderstanding.
I really can’t see how anyone could object to a subject such as this. To know your own background, where your people come from, what they achieved, gives you such a grounding. It gives you a sense of who and what you are.
This subject already exists.
It’s called History
The subject already exists? History??? Now you’re just making things up. Show me the module or subject that deals with this in state schools.
Not sure what you mean. History is the study of the past. How we came to be where we are now. Modern History is basically the past few hundred years. And at O and A level History, as well as university, the purpose of History was pretty much to study what you have outlined, both here in UK/Ireland and further afield.
Noone tried to stifle the Irish language. It fell in to disuse. As did Manx I believe. Now it is being sort of revived. But it will never be anything more than a token subject.
English, or more probably US English, is the language of choice for pretty much everyone in the UK and Ireland. Including this forum I believe.
“Noone tried to stifle the Irish language”
Perhaps a Gaelic studies course would help to stifle these clearly dearly held but utterly false beliefs.
Unionists should be proud of their history, not try and deny it, no?
“Noone tried to stifle the Irish language”
Driftwood – please read this:
Quite balanced
Don’t you agree that there was some systematic suppression ???