Ireland: land of hard knocks and long held grudges…
I’ve not managed to get hold of a copy of the latest version of LIves Entwined
….we already know what the British think of us: they have only positive things to say. The real question is whether this friendliness is now being reciprocated. I’m afraid the answer is, no.
He continues:
Self-evidently, relations are a lot better than they were, but genuine goodwill seems still to be flowing largely in only one direction. On this side of the Irish Sea, the past is not so much being put behind us, as being put to different use.
Forgiveness rather than outright hostility is now the official Irish attitude to Britain, and this is reflected throughout the Lives Entwined series. But it is forgiveness of the self-serving kind.
That may(or indeed may not, I haven’t read had the opportunity to read the latest volume in full) be true, but he goes on to make a point about the past that usefully bears repetition. Particularly now at a time when the Republic is adopting a foreign policy of what some have called ‘active neutrality’ through the agency of the EU:
The hard historical truth is that Ireland was, at best, every bit as much coloniser as colonised, it being part of the then United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Ireland) on whose behalf the British Empire was founded and maintained. Whether it suits or not, it is nonetheless indisputable fact that it wasn’t only the English who sailed around the world laying claim on behalf of the UK to wherever and whatever took their fancy, but the Scottish, Welsh and, yes, the Irish as well.
It should hardly need pointing out that, unlike elected representatives from Ireland, there were no gentlemen from India or Africa or any other colony able to take seats in the British House of Commons.
Does anyone truly believe that Ireland would not have created, just as anyone with enough military muscle did, an empire in its own right had it been able? Ireland is indeed exceptional, though, in at least one sense.
It is somewhat ironic that most of the nations who were former British colonies long ago discarded the comfort blanket of colonial victimhood (though God knows they had every right to cling to it).
Although some have been independent for less than 50 years, virtually all now welcome with open arms periodic visits by British dignitaries of every kind, including royalty.
Compare that with the situation here.
After almost a century of independence, Ireland is congratulating itself no end on now being mature enough to stage a rugby game against England at Croke Park for the first time, with the British national anthem played without fuss. By any standards, hardly the mark of maturity.
It’s a typically robust analysis from Adams. Although it’s interesting to note that the research that kicked all of this activity off was a survey amongst the under forties in the Republic. The de facto truth about the East West relationship amongst the mass of ordinary Irish citizens of the Republic, is that the relationship between the two is unremittingly positive.
It may take a little time before our ‘intelligensia’ catch up with Myles na gCopaleen’s ineluctable Greek chorus, ‘the plain people of Ireland’.
willow
Except in the Republic of Ireland Act 1948! And we all know that “Ireland” is a misnomer (it only covers part of Ireland: the rest is in the UK).
The Act provides for a description of the State, not the name. The name is set out in the Constitution, which has primacy.
If it really bugs you, consider that both “Virginia” and “West Virginia” exist. There is no “Southern Ireland” or “Irish Free State”.
The Act provides for a description of the State, not the name. The name is set out in the Constitution, which has primacy.
As I said: it’s a misnomer.
If it really bugs you, consider that both “Virginia” and “West Virginia” exist. There is no “Southern Ireland” or “Irish Free State”.
There’s no “South Korea”, “Switzerland”, “Taiwan”, “Greece” and numerous other places under your logic.
willow
There’s no “South Korea”, “Switzerland”, “Taiwan”, “Greece” and numerous other places under your logic.
Technically, there isn’t. And I’m sure China, for example, would dispute “Taiwan”.
You stick to your technicalities, then, Kensei!
The rest of us will use appropriate and accurate language.
lol somebody out pendanted willow……. will wonders never cease
willow
Those parties are still socialist and you’re still wrong.
Just because you call yourself something doesn’t necessarily make you it.
Is a man a zebra just because he starts claiming he is, or because consul supports his claim? He has every right to refer to himself as a zebra, but others have every right to point out that actually he isn’t one.
Where is the evidence of socialism in the SDLP or Sinn Fein’s politics?
What is socialism anyway? How would you define it?
Consul
Those parties are still socialist and you’re still wrong.
Incisive argument, there, consul – you’ve blown me away. How could anyone argue with that?
LOL!
Actually got round to reading that survey that Mick links to (hmm)….Interesting stuff – 50% of respondents (people under 40) had been to the North…I wonder what % of Northerners have been to the South ?
“What is socialism anyway?”
LOL – till the Twelfth ? This could last till christmas!!!
Indeed Dewi. But before going there compare that figure with London (84%); Scotland (44%); and Wales (44%).
dewi,
‘we need to keep this going to the 12th because we are thran.’
I see you omitted the year in which the thran will end
There is of course earthly thran and then there is the extra terresrial form as in the excerpt below from a Robert King SF novel ?
The Thran were a utopian race of humanoids whose technology level was much more advanced than any other Dominarians.
The Thran Empire, centered in their capital city of Halcyon, encompassed much of the main planet of the plane of Dominaria. Their culture was idyllic and pacific, and the Thran people lived very lush and comfortable lives. This all changed when a group of rebellious Untouchables, people who had been exiled from Halcyon to live and die in the Caves of the Damned, for one reason or another, attacked the city’s mana rig, or power source, effectively, situated in a volcanic crevice above the Caves of the Damned and below the City of Halcyon
The Thran began to suffer from a disease known as Phthisis etc etc etc
So there you have it Dewi – the solution
Phthisis
I was actually pleasantly surprised. In the last 40 years you would not have gone there on holiday. Sport, for that market section, would be a reason I suppose.
Would schools in the South have trips to the Giant’s Causeway ?
willow
You stick to your technicalities, then, Kensei!
The rest of us will use appropriate and accurate language.
I have no care what you call the republic but [sic]ing everyone else’s usage when it is perfectly fine is fucking annoying.
Mick
Indeed Dewi. But before going there compare that figure with London (84%); Scotland (44%); and Wales (44%).
So slightly ahead of Scotland and Wales, and miles behind a major world city. Hell, I’ve been to London twice and never visited Munster. I’d wager there are probably another 6 counties people could name they haven’t been in too. It’s hardly startling, Mick. If we want to get people up here then we need something to attract then, and we’re light years behind of almost everywhere else when it comes to tourism.
Another interesting little tit bit from that report that speaks of how we are seen:
When asked to name regions of the UK, only 35% mentioned Northern
Ireland spontaneously, which may indicate that many respondents don’t include Northern
Ireland in their mental map of the UK.
Willow
If you look back down the thread you will see that I have already stated why I believe that NI parties are emphatically socialist. You spoke of capitalist policies but as far I can see running to Uncle Gordy is the sum total of economic policy in NI (btw Peking thats what I mean by socialism, you know 70+% public sector that kind of thing) so if you want me to keep punching out the same argument willow post after post when it is you who is refusing to tell me why capitalism rules in NI, you won’t or can’t even offer a weak argument you just keep insisting they’re not socialist, they’re not socialist. Give me an incisive argument, blow me away; jaysus put up some sort of a show anyway. They say they’re socialist, they act socialist, the burden of proof is yours not mine.
WF,
“Please do not deliberately misrepresent other posters.”
Excuse me???
I wasn’t referring to mis-representation of the wiki facts, Willowfield.
Moreover, I was highlighting the bogus nature of your argument, which were based on the incorrect data.
And your stubborn refusal thereafter, to admit you were wrong.
But sure, don’t let that get in the way of having a pop at me!
You’re well able to drop klangers without any help from me…
Which brings me to my reason for posting:-
This cuts to the core of the problem I have with your posts; the utter – & damn-right refusal – to accept or acqueisce to anyone else’s POV; even when your raison d’etré for arguing against same in the first place is proven to be groundless.
And I think you know this.
It also explains why other posters on here line-up to criticise your comments.
i.e. in addition to myself, you managed to (try &) have the last word in one post against:-
– Kensei;
– Peking;
– Consul
ANO
Aside:-
I think Driftwood said it best – this thread is in ‘cul-de-sac’ territory; we could all benefit from debating a different topic.
Greenflag – thank you – funny.
Mick – I’m not all surprised at Welsh and Scottish numbers – they are close, good holiday places, Celtic cousins and polite and charming people. Everyone goes to London at least once don’t they. I’m still a little puzzled at why the 50% is so high.
An Ode to the Thran men
You may have heard of Columbus sailing
Across the Caribbean sea
But he never tried to go arguing
With the thran men from Donaghadee
For they start in the morn bright and early
And continue for most of the day
And when night falls again in the evening
They retire to rethran next day
At morn it’s right back to the thraning
At 10.00 they’ll stop for some tay
At 11.00 thran men argue with passion
That black is really dark grey .
By 12 .00 they’ll argue with sadness
That Norn Iron has’nt got oil
By afternoon they’re at each other’s throats
Over the price of a pint up in Moyle
Now one will say Marty’s a saint
And the other will state he’s a winner
And neither at all will agree
That oul Paisley’s ahead as the sinner .
(with apologies to Percy French )
Bono’s historical analysis Spot on !!
DEWI
You and Bono have some nerve, everyone knows there was no famine and the english didnt allow the Irish to die like flies
This forumn needs a sarcasm button
KENSEI
I have no care what you call the republic but [sic]ing everyone else’s usage when it is perfectly fine is fucking annoying.
If I’m quoting other people, I will indicate where they have used inappropriate language or spelling or grammatical errors, so as to demonstrate that such deficiencies are not mine. Whether or not you find it annoying is of no consequence to me.
CONSUL
If you look back down the thread you will see that I have already stated why I believe that NI parties are emphatically socialist.
Because the SDLP has “social” in its title?!
You spoke of capitalist policies but as far I can see running to Uncle Gordy is the sum total of economic policy in NI … so if you want me to keep punching out the same argument willow post after post when it is you who is refusing to tell me why capitalism rules in NI, you won’t or can’t even offer a weak argument you just keep insisting they’re not socialist, they’re not socialist.
Uncle Gordy runs a capitalist economy.
Give me an incisive argument, blow me away; jaysus put up some sort of a show anyway.
You’re the one claiming they’re socialist, so the onus is on you to demonstrate how. Tell me when any major party from NI last argued for a socialist economy. Tell me why Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley welcomed the relocation of Dublin financial institutions into NI if they are socialists.
They say they’re socialist, they act socialist, the burden of proof is yours not mine.
PSF may claim to be socialist, but it doesn’t act socialist. SDLP neither claims to be, nor acts, socialist.
A N OTHER
I wasn’t referring to mis-representation of the wiki facts, Willowfield.
So what were you referring to?
Moreover, I was highlighting the bogus nature of your argument, which were [sic] based on the incorrect data.
There is no “bogus nature” to any of my arguments and none is based on incorrect data.
And your stubborn refusal thereafter, to admit you were wrong.
I have admitted that I was wrong to use the Wiki figure. I’m unaware of being wrong about anything else, but you are welcome to point out any inaccuracies and – if you are correct – I will admit to being wrong.
Willow – any idea of a source for statistics on people visiting the South from the North? Can’t find nowt but swear I’ve read something somewhere.
My final post on this thread (before a self-inflicted razor-blade cut to the wrists is administered…)
WF,
Grammatical corrections & a failure to see the wood from the trees.
=> A complete failure to address the cut ‘n’
thrust of my last post.
Normal service resumed, so.
What would I do without you…
** WARNING!! – the spelling & syntax of the above post has NOT been peer reviewed. Must do better next time!! **
I note your failure to back up your claims about bogus arguments being based on incorrect data, or anywhere that I have been wrong, other than the WIki figure.
>>Because the SDLP has “social” in its title?!< <
Social and Labour. Still never mind.
>>Uncle Gordy runs a capitalist economy.< <
Uncle Gordy (Labour) the champions of patronage. Still whether the UK is capitalist or otherwise is hardly relevant. We're talking about the most peripheral region of the UK which is most certainly not capitalist.
>>You’re the one claiming they’re socialist, so the onus is on you to demonstrate how.< <
I've demonstrated, you have not and clearly are not going to reciprocate.
>> Tell me when any major party from NI last argued for a socialist economy. < <
Unionist parties have often pointed out the advantage of the British Exchequer when arguing for the union.
>> Tell me why Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley welcomed the relocation of Dublin financial institutions into NI if they are socialists.< <
M McG probably welcomes any interaction with the south. IP IIRC tried to rubbish talk of economic links with the south, Peter Robinson didn't want to become an "economic colony" but they went a bit quiet when business leaders in NI said they wanted a single economy. Now instead of "competing" with the Republic they've decided to work with it but it certainly isn't what they originally intended.
>> PSF may claim to be socialist, but it doesn’t act socialist. SDLP neither claims to be, nor acts, socialist. <<
Yes they are and yes they do.
CONSUL
Social and Labour.
So you think having “social” and “labour” in a party’s title means that it must be socialist?
Uncle Gordy (Labour) the champions of patronage. Still whether the UK is capitalist or otherwise is hardly relevant. We’re talking about the most peripheral region of the UK which is most certainly not capitalist.
I’ve just looked out the window and seen lots of shops and other private businesses. That would suggest that we have a capitalist economy in Northern Ireland. Hell, I can even see banks.
I’ve demonstrated
Where?
Unionist parties have often pointed out the advantage of the British Exchequer when arguing for the union.
Indeed, but I asked you to point out when NI parties have argued for a socialist economy. Why didn’t you answer the question?
M McG probably welcomes any interaction with the south.
Maybe he does, but if he were a socialist why would he be welcoming capitalist financial institutions?
Yes they are and yes they do.
If that is your position, presumably you would be able to demonstrate how PSF and SDLP act as socialists. It is noteworthy that you have not done so.
Willow
Your ‘debating’ on this topic lacks style and is completely devoid of substance. The NI economy is totally dependant on public money to stay afloat but lets ignore that inconvenient truth. I can’t be bothered with this anymore, sick of talking to a wall.
The NI economy is totally dependant on public money to stay afloat but lets ignore that inconvenient truth.
I think it’s 67% dependent or something – but it’s a capitalist economy and all parties, including PSF and SDLP want to reduce that dependency.
Do you understand what socialism means?
C’mon Willow – try and find me data on Northern visits to the South – I’m struggling.
Willow
>>I note you ignore the Clearances! Rather disingenuous.<<
You have taking playing the eedjit too far to be believable Willow. Considering that I have more than adequately dissected your argument and shown that you were wrong to claim that 1.7 million people emigrated due to the famine, thus showing that in effect the Irish famine was not unique on these islands. Everyone, including your good self knows I was not correcting you on your wiki figures, in fact this is the first time I have even mentioned wiki. Your holocaust denial type argument is wrong, regardless of wiki’s influence.
And if you ………….”how so?”, I swear I’ll get so angry that I’ll crush a grape.
In essence I will not rehash my points any more, you have gained an unwarranted reputation, and I don’t intend to feed your trollish behaviour any further, well not on this thread anyhow.
Anyway – my niece rung me with a joke:
What’s orange and sounds like a parrot?
A carrot
Brilliant
DEWI
C’mon Willow – try and find me data on Northern visits to the South – I’m struggling.
Can I ask you why you’re asking me to do this?
PRIONSA
Considering that I have more than adequately dissected your argument and shown that you were wrong to claim that 1.7 million people emigrated due to the famine, thus showing that in effect the Irish famine was not unique on these islands. Everyone, including your good self knows I was not correcting you on your wiki figures, in fact this is the first time I have even mentioned wiki.
You seem to have (deliberately?) misunderstood the point. It doesn’t matter whether 1.7m emigrated due to the famine, or whether “only” hundreds of thousands emigrated due to the Clearances. The point is there was severe economic hardship and suffering in Scotland, too. Just because it wasn’t on the same scale as in Ireland doesn’t mean that it wasn’t real and significant.
Your holocaust denial type argument is wrong, regardless of wiki’s influence.
I haven’t made any such argument. Please do not misrepresent other contributors.
Can I ask you why you’re asking me to do this?
Cos I can’t blasted find any data – been digging all afternoon and night – and I swear I’ve read summat – frustrating – thought you might have a source.
Yeah, but why me?
No partcular reason other than you like facts.
Dewi,
In the context of the numbers below the number from NI to the Republic is insignifcant . They may or may not be included in the 3.46 million from Britain.?
Probably impossible to derive the number from the stats available . Many who live close to the border cross over to buy petrol and are back in NI in 10 minutes .
Tourist report ITB
In all, Ireland has received 9,919,900 visitors this year(2007) through the end of October, 4.0 percent more than last year’s record volume.
The rise in U.S. visitors was particularly prized because Americans tend to stay longer, travel more widely and spend more money — despite the dollar’s exceptional weakness versus the euro.
For the first 10 months of 2007, visitors from Britain were down 0.7 percent to 3.46 million. American travelers were up 0.8 percent to 952,500, an all-time high. Visitors from the rest of Europe surged 14.2 percent to 2.23 million, another record.
The strong growth in continental European tourism has been driven by strong competition between Dew Ireland’s two major airlines, Aer Lingus and Ryanair, which have dramatically expanded direct links between Ireland and European destinations. It also reflects wider growth in tourist traffic within the 13-nation bloc that uses the euro currency.
Brennan said his department planned to spend a record $73 million next year on marketing Ireland overseas as a tourist destination.
Thanks Green Flag – interesting. I know I’ve seen something specific however – I was astonished that figures were so low – I’ll have another forage……
Every possible fact but Tourism Ireland
I give up – strange – how about a survey on Slugger? How many people have been down South ? Obviously need a scientific sample of…..at least three people…
>>Yeah, but why me?
Posted by willowfield on May 30, 2008 @ 10:22 AM
#
No partcular reason other than you like facts.
Posted by dewi on May 30, 2008 @ 11:47 AM< <
Well I would doubt the veracity of his facts. Indeed the veracity of his arguments, and as this thread has shown repeatedly................his honesty. Witness this exchange answering A N OTHER on the previous page @ 03:54 PM;
>>A N OTHER………..I wasn’t referring to mis-representation of the wiki facts, Willowfield.
willow……… So what were you referring to?< <
LOL! He tells you right away what he is on about, you have even managed to quote him below. Really clever stuff!
>>A N OTHER……………Moreover, I was highlighting the bogus nature of your argument, which were [sic] based on the incorrect data.
There is no “bogus nature” to any of my arguments and none is based on incorrect data.< <
Jesus, Mary and Joseph! This is about the only thing that you have been honest about, probably because you can't turn your dry monotonous questions on the data, and bore us to death demanding verification of points. Remember the incorrect data that you claimed from Wiki to support your nonsense that the famine really wasn't that bad because 1.7 million had to emigrate from the highlands due to a famine? That my friend is your bogus argument................CAPICE MALACA!
>>The point is there was severe economic hardship and suffering in Scotland, too. Just because it wasn’t on the same scale as in Ireland doesn’t mean that it wasn’t real and significant.<<
Listen you numptie, I have gone on about the clearances here for many a day. It is insulting to now find myself being accused of downplaying the highland clearances. However considering the nature of the person doing it, and the sad reasons why, it should really be no surprise. I note you have heavily downgraded your first claims, aimed at lessening the enormity of the Irish famine. Those principally responsible for the clearances did not deliberately allow people to starve, and indeed made some efforts, however haphazard and unwanted to at least try to ease the suffering due to their actions. Also during the famine in the highlands, the contrast between efforts here to feed the people and in Ireland could not be starker.
PE – Your holocaust denial type argument is wrong, regardless of wiki’s influence.
Willow – I haven’t made any such argument. Please do not misrepresent other contributors.
If I were to try to use the attempted genocide of Bosnian Muslims in the 1990′s, to compare with the Holocaust in a way that is aimed at saying, “hey the Jews and the Slavs and the Gypos etc. weren’t the only ones hard done by, this is the kind of thing that goes on dont you know.” That would be considered by any standards a holocaust denial argument. Thus your efforts to bring the highland famine into play that produced hunger, but little in the way of deaths has been shown to be totally bogus. I now note that you have downgraded your claims to the clearances causing economic suffering and hardship……………..fine, in reality it caused a lot more than that in terms of killing a way of life etc. Hardly worth mentioning when discussing the enormity of the famine, different results. I’d say that on reflection you have scored an own goal, the way the Scottish famine was handled only serves to show up the poor efforts over the Irish famine. Well done Willow, frank Spencer rides again.
I have explained myself fully on several occasions now. Your pathetic wriggling is best saved for another day, perhaps when you have something to wriggle over.