Ireland: land of hard knocks and long held grudges…
I’ve not managed to get hold of a copy of the latest version of LIves Entwined
….we already know what the British think of us: they have only positive things to say. The real question is whether this friendliness is now being reciprocated. I’m afraid the answer is, no.
He continues:
Self-evidently, relations are a lot better than they were, but genuine goodwill seems still to be flowing largely in only one direction. On this side of the Irish Sea, the past is not so much being put behind us, as being put to different use.
Forgiveness rather than outright hostility is now the official Irish attitude to Britain, and this is reflected throughout the Lives Entwined series. But it is forgiveness of the self-serving kind.
That may(or indeed may not, I haven’t read had the opportunity to read the latest volume in full) be true, but he goes on to make a point about the past that usefully bears repetition. Particularly now at a time when the Republic is adopting a foreign policy of what some have called ‘active neutrality’ through the agency of the EU:
The hard historical truth is that Ireland was, at best, every bit as much coloniser as colonised, it being part of the then United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Ireland) on whose behalf the British Empire was founded and maintained. Whether it suits or not, it is nonetheless indisputable fact that it wasn’t only the English who sailed around the world laying claim on behalf of the UK to wherever and whatever took their fancy, but the Scottish, Welsh and, yes, the Irish as well.
It should hardly need pointing out that, unlike elected representatives from Ireland, there were no gentlemen from India or Africa or any other colony able to take seats in the British House of Commons.
Does anyone truly believe that Ireland would not have created, just as anyone with enough military muscle did, an empire in its own right had it been able? Ireland is indeed exceptional, though, in at least one sense.
It is somewhat ironic that most of the nations who were former British colonies long ago discarded the comfort blanket of colonial victimhood (though God knows they had every right to cling to it).
Although some have been independent for less than 50 years, virtually all now welcome with open arms periodic visits by British dignitaries of every kind, including royalty.
Compare that with the situation here.
After almost a century of independence, Ireland is congratulating itself no end on now being mature enough to stage a rugby game against England at Croke Park for the first time, with the British national anthem played without fuss. By any standards, hardly the mark of maturity.
It’s a typically robust analysis from Adams. Although it’s interesting to note that the research that kicked all of this activity off was a survey amongst the under forties in the Republic. The de facto truth about the East West relationship amongst the mass of ordinary Irish citizens of the Republic, is that the relationship between the two is unremittingly positive.
It may take a little time before our ‘intelligensia’ catch up with Myles na gCopaleen’s ineluctable Greek chorus, ‘the plain people of Ireland’.
cladycowboy
Education and IQ are two totally separate things.
As for this American of your’s who was able to tell what the average IQ of the people in Ireland was in the 1800s. You must think I’ve an IQ of about 45 to believe that nonsense.
Peking
“Education and IQ are two totally separate things.”
Er, I know. It was you who put them in the same sentence.
“As for this American of your’s who was able to tell what the average IQ of the people in Ireland was in the 1800s. You must think I’ve an IQ of about 45 to believe that nonsense.”
I wasn’t trying to dazzle you with his yankicity, I just recall he was investigating leaps in young black male IQ and found that it was true across all ‘races’ through time. He wasn’t specific about Ireland. If you’d an IQ of 45 then you wouldn’t question what is told to you, further emphasizing my (intentionally comic) point.
I do, fully believe though that vast swathes of the Irish people were kept in a position of such complete shock that they were incapable of thinking of greater solutions than limmited Home rule.
Peking
Okay this might be a lot to get your head around all at once but believe it or not religious denomination in the Republic is obsolete. Probably 200,000 RoI citizens are protestant and I’d like to hear about the discrimination they apparently face. Give me one example outside Ulster where sectarianism has surfaced. Fair employment and anti-discrimination laws are required in NI in the early years of this century because of the attitudes that have been prevalent there up until now. The Irish Constitution is quite sufficient to deal with any such issue and if it is the case that the Euro project is pushed through then I imagine that it would legislate as required. At any rate your suggestion that modern Ireland would be hostile to non RCs doesn’t stand up. Everyone over 18 has a vote and the people are sovereign, the government serves the people not the other way around.
“Albert also talked about some mechanisms…” Alberts words came about 30 or 40 years before the fact, people should be thinking about life after tribalism and dysfunction and you would think work towards something more conventional. You know sometimes I wonder when I hear of people from both sides express their exasperation at the abnormal tribal nature of political life in NI yet refuse to countenance normality. Well maybe they need time to grow sufficiently sick of mandotory coalition (another 8-10?) remains to be seen.
I forgot Peking to pick up on your point re federal government. Only countries with large populations employ it. Six million people in a relatively small place dont need multiple governments especially on the wages that politicians in Ireland like to pay themselves, no no there would be one central government in Dublin should unification come about.
All of the human rights, fair employment and general anti-discrimination legislation, as well as cultural safeguards, for a start. They would all be incorporated into law in the new Republic.
Aside from “cultural safeguards” (though please note the money the Republic spent at the Boyne, for example, and the money announced for the OO) what legislation is required beyond the Irish Constitution and European law?
I don’t know Consul – the “tribalism” is so long founded and structural that it’s not easy to fix.
Everyone quotes Churchill’s “dreary steeples” but the best bit of that speech was when he referred to the “integrity” of the quarrel. Never really got how a quarrel could have “integrity” untill reading Slugger for a while.
Thus Irish Nationalists need to recognise the “nationhood” of the Ulster Scots. Canada has had a go with the “nationhood” of Quebec recognised in the constitution.
Kensei/Consul
If the Irish [sic] Constitution is sufficient to address discrimination, how come the S.Irish Parliament has passed numerous anti-discrimination laws, similar to those operating in NI and the rest of the UK?
On the wider issue, the anti-discrimination laws in the South are already broadly the same as those in NI – so I see no issue about discrimination in a “united Ireland”. So Peking’s discrimination issue is a red herring.
Dewi
The Nationhood of Quebec is NOT recognized in the Canadian Constitution, it was proposed but soundly rejected under referendum
Dewi ,
Thus Irish Nationalists need to recognise the “nationhood” of the Ulster Scots.
So not the Ulster English or the Ulster Welsh never mind the Gaelic Gatholic irish Unionists ?
Perhaps the term Ulster British would have been more accurate than just the Ulster Scots ?
That’s what a fair ‘repartition’ would achieve . Apparently the Ulster British seem as keen on repartition as they do on the bubonic plague or power sharing with the SDLP back at the time of Sunningdale ?
as Canada has had a go with the “nationhood” of Quebec recognised in the constitution.
A Canadian is an unarmed American with health insurance . If there was ever a country more in need of a national identity it has to be Canada.:) The Northern Irish are not Canadians and do not aspire to be either but if they could find a fairly empty spot like northern Alberta or preferably the Yukon where they could ship out the Northern ‘malcontents’ that could be a blessing . We can easily repopulate it with some Eastern europeans and newer English/Scots /Welsh immigrants plus a few from China etc etc .
The place would be humming with entrepreuneurial activity within a decade
Dewi
Certainly not easy to fix but the ones who should be trying the hardest are those who have to live with it. It is a task that must be attempted. You know before communications took off it was harder to get an insight into the world at large. All people down south knew of unionists was they wanted to maintain partition and they did not think much of the rest of Ireland. Little was known of their culture, the complexities of their world view or what basically makes them tick. Personally I had fallen into the trap of thinking that because they were in the same parties that they had 100% consensus on everything. If I had considered it of course for 30 seconds I would have seen that to be absurd that 8 or 900,000 people would be on the same page on issues other than you know what. Same is true for nationalists, both of their parties are socialist. Is every catholic in NI a socialist? Given that the unionist parties have the same ideas economically you have to ask is everyone in NI a socialist? I doubt it, there may be some who are at heart but I suspect the fact that NI, the way it is set up is a natural breeding ground for that philosophy is the reason for this and that is just one example. I bet there’s loads of people in the same parties who in a regular enviroment are poles apart in terms of policy, and I bet there’s people there who end up voting for the same parties who in any other time or place would not vote for the same party in a million years. That is why even though it may be difficult people should decide this is something they must achieve. If they could it would be interesting to see what sort of party would gain ascendancy.
None of the main NI parties is socialist.
Willow
“None of the main NI parties is socialist.”
Sinn Féin are not socialist??
SDLP are not socialist??
And the unionist parties are working off the subvention also. Their economic policies are the same as far as I can see.
I missed that Steve – when was that?
Didn’t this pass:
Motion
Consul
Sinn Féin are not socialist??
SDLP are not socialist??
And the unionist parties are working off the subvention also. Their economic policies are the same as far as I can see.
Correct. None is socialist. All favour a capitalist economic system.
The only socialist parties contesting elections in NI are the Socialist Party and (possibly) the Workers [sic] Party.
Try and suggest some of the necessary actions Consul:
1) Compulsory integrated education.
2) A banning (or at the very least a radical reduction in the nunmber) of parades.
3) Allowing Irish to be spoken in courts.
See how far you get……
‘Never really got how a quarrel could have “integrity” ‘
Look at the history of the rise of Irish nationalism from the first awakenings of a cultural ‘nationalism ‘ as far back as Brian Boru’s time to the emerging ‘political’ nationalism of the 17th /18th /19th and 20th and now 21st century and that should be enough to convince you that Irish ‘nationalism’ is very much a reality . It’s ‘normal’ development was skewed /distorted simply by it’s juxtaposition with the emergence of English /British imperilaism . Ireland was ‘different’ from Scotland and Wales in that ‘resistance’ in both the latter nations faded away post 1700 in Scotland and from the 14th century in Wales with Owen Glendower IIRC . Ireland was also predominantly Catholic and at least nominally remains so -although the early ‘nationalists ‘ were predominantly Protestant . England ‘feared’ and had reason to the vastly more populous Catholic countries of France and Spain from the 16th century through 1812 ? During that long period 1603 through 1829 and indeed through to the end of the 19th century Britain essentially either ignored Ireland when it could and was dragged in to reignite the fires of resistance when it had to . Up to the middle 19th century ‘language ‘ difference was also a major factor in ‘insulating’ the English from the ‘real’ Ireland of the majority . Ireland’s english imposed ‘isolation’ from the rest of europe 1600 through 1922 also skewed irish ‘nationalism’ with a strong anti British flavour . Despite all of the above Ireland could probably still have ended up choosing ‘Home Rule’ within the Empire . The fact that they did’nt is not a reflection of the strength of the minority of physical force ‘republicans’ but has more to do with the failure of the British State to make the necessary ‘reforms’ they needed to make in Ireland at the time when they would have made a difference and not as too often happened long after the ‘Republicans ‘ made political hay with the British ‘delay’ and thus outpoliticked the ‘moderate’ nationalists .
It’s as we now see deja vu again in NI . No doubt many will say better late than never . I’m not so sure .
It would be an interesting ‘exercise’ to speculate how Irish ‘nationalism ‘ would have developed had Ireland ‘never’ been conquered or half conquered by the neighbouring isle .
I suspect that like the Japanese did with the Chinese -that the Irish would have taken /absorbed that which which was of benefit and left behind that which was ‘not ‘ wanted ‘
“Perhaps the term Ulster British would have been more accurate than just the Ulster Scots ?”
Whatever they prefer Greenflag.
joinedupthinking,
“Cork, Limerick & the other no-go areas that encircle Dublin…”
????
Now excuse me for being persumptious, but what exactly is your knowledge of the three urban areas above, that you’ve decided
to tar with such an extreme brush?
Or do you merely believe everything you read in the media?…
An ignorant broadbrush & blasé comment such as yours from three pages’ back on this thread requires rebuttal. It indicates to me, that you
know very little of the three areas in question.
Moreover, your name dropping of your stereotypical opinion of these three areas displayed a readiness to criticise areas of the Republid of Ireland….
At the drop of a hat.
Social problems are the preserve of all urban areas – or do you just think that they occur in the South???
So, I’ll take you through each of the urban areas above, given I went to Uni in one, & worked in two of the others.
Limerick
As the song goes, “Limerick, you’re a lady…” – or maybe not, given the well-documentated murderous fueds that have taken place on
Shannonside since the early “Noughties”.
In a nutshell, the barbaric turf-war that has occurred in three suburbs of Limerick (Southill, Island Field & parts of Ballyneety) is driven by
one issue – drugs.
Given the City’s geographical location (in SW Ireland, close to major ports), it’s status as a distributions’ point for the importation of contra-bond
is unrivalled; as such, the potential for immense profit-teering & the greed associated herewith.
Cork
Your reference to Cork baffled me. Every large urban area in the world has social problems – with Cork being no different. Yes, there are decent,
working class areas on Leeside & of course, there is one in particular (known locally as “Knocka”) that no self-respecting member of public would
choose to cross some of the inhabitants of.
Bear in mind, there’s an area of West Belfast not one mile from the City Centre that’s known as “Beirut”….
But really, the only thing that shocks me about Cork everytime I’m down from a social viewpoint, is the sheer volume of newly registered BMW’s driving
around “D’Banks”.
Dublin
With the notable exceptions of Finglas, Crumlin & Driminagh (all once honest, working-class areas – where once again, deplorable turf wars over drugs
are a fact-of-life), your comment is horse-shit.
Mind you, the Dublin Metropolitian Area is home to c1.5m inhabitants – so you don’t expect there to be some social problems???…
If you spent less time in engaging in “Southern Whataboutery” with stupid, ill-educated remarks & more time actually constructively debating the points
raised by other posters of a differing political persuasion, then I may in future, have more time for your posts.
It was equivalent to me lambasting:-
– Ballymena’s “heroin problem”;
- Carrick’s “police shooting Loyalists”; and
- North Belfast’s “interface rioting”.
i.e. I don’t know enough about said areas (And the subsequent sensationalist media reporting of said “events” above). Ergo, I’m not in a position to
comment, in any format, on each of the above.
Because I’m not in full position of the facts, from personal experience, to do so.
But in reality, I’m not the 1st poster on this thread to shoot-down your bullshit – and methinks, I won’t be the last…
As such, I look forward (with beathed breath!) to your reply…
ANO
Plantation might have an ever so slight bearing on this particular quarrel GF…..(we can keep this up till the Twelfth)
“Correct. None is socialist. All favour a capitalist economic system.”
Correct in that they are not socialist (or no longer such).
They all favour being in power. Sinn Fein used to voice a vision different from the Capitalist system but with the trips to Washington and the realisation that the ‘markets’ would punish them for going down the route of worker protection coupled with their thirst for power has led them to embrace the status quo. I wouldn’t say they favour it though. Again, it boils down to choices or rather the ones we are allowed to have.
“IQ usually has a strong correlation with level of education and during the 1800’s…”
Cladycowboy, it was you not me who made the above daft statement.
Consul
I didn’t say there was anti-protestant discrimination now being practiced in the south (though until recently the place was virtually a catholic theocracy) but was responding to the silly claim that nothing of the GFA or SA agreements would survive unity. As proof of good intent, if nothing else, the things I mentioned would survive – that’s what it says in the GFA anyway.
I might point out to Willow with his off-hand “red herring” dismissal: Read the report in todays Irish Times drawing attention to Amnesty International’s 2008 report which criticises Ireland, yet again, for large gaps in its Human Rights legislation.
Consul
Take your issues over the idea of a federal, or confederal, Ireland up with Seamus Mallon it’s him who raised it again.
But don’t rule it out either, especially on a hardly scientific “nowhere else our size uses it” basis, or on the cost issue (when did that ever come into the equation in this part of the world, where “if it works go with it” is the rule of thumb?)
I might point out to Willow with his off-hand “red herring” dismissal: Read the report in todays Irish Times drawing attention to Amnesty International’s 2008 report which criticises Ireland, yet again, for large gaps in its Human Rights legislation.
What’s that got to do with discrimination law?
“Cladycowboy, it was you not me who made the above daft statement.”
Look Peking mucker, it’s tedious having to labour on the most insignificant part of my post. You first put IQ and education in the same sentence. I only responded to it.
Btw, are you suggesting there is not a significant positive correlation between IQ and level of education attained?
“Ireland was ‘different’ from Scotland and Wales in that ‘resistance’ in both the latter nations faded away post 1700 in Scotland and from the 14th century in Wales with Owen Glendower IIRC . Ireland was also predominantly Catholic and at least nominally remains so -although the early ‘nationalists ‘ were predominantly Protestant”
The relative rate of industrialisation a big factor also. You had armed insurrections (of a minor scale cf Ireland) in South Wales in 1831 and 1839. I think the government policy of distiction between Lowland and Highland Scots also fairly succesful in instigating “quarrels”.
One of the most influential effects of the famine was to create a fairly intensely nationalistic diaspora – a big influence on IRB etc – and source of funds arms…enough – I’ll stop stating the obvious.
Dewi
They are things to do when society is ready, naturally next week is to soon but times do change however slowly.
Willow
When I see them quack I’ll accept they are ducks but not before.
Sorry, consul, I’m afraid that makes absolutely no sense to me.
Willow, I see you are confused.
Actually it’s ANTI-discrimination law I’m talking about, and it has everything to do with human rights legislation.
DISCRIMINATION law, ie laws designed to discriminate, as you refer to, would cover the likes of the apartheid legislation that existed previously in South Africa.
cladycowboy
Now you really are twisting things.
You ask me: “Btw, are you suggesting there is not a significant positive correlation between IQ and level of education attained?”
Of course there is. The higher the IQ the more likely educational achievement will be higher.
But that is totally different to what you originally claimed, which was that IQ levels amongst Irish people were very low during the 1800s. Equivalent to remedial nowadays I think you said. You claimed this was because of lack of education.
That is nonsense, IQ levels do not go up or down based on education. Simple fact.
Peking
If you go back far enough this state was utterly sectarian but it is not now, that is what is relevant. In the event of unity NI would be an extension of the existing republic. Amendments to the constitution to include elements of the GFA would be minimal due to the fact that not much from a treaty which would then be likely 30 years old and possibly 15 years out of date would be required. To believe otherwise would be silly.
By the by I feel no need to take anything up with Séamus Mallon why would I? Just because he has a hankering for federalism does not mean it’s in the post. Just because they like to throw money around in NI does not mean it can be done willy nilly when you have to raise all of it yourself. The wee six would be part of the machine in a UI rather than a trailer such as they are in the UK. The appetite for throwing huge amounts of money at glorified councillors might find itself on the wane when there isn’t someone else to pay for it.
If the Irish [sic] Constitution is sufficient to address discrimination, how come the S.Irish Parliament has passed numerous anti-discrimination laws, similar to those operating in NI and the rest of the UK?
The state to your South is called simply “Ireland”. The Constitution is therefore the Constitution of Ireland. If you must be a pedant, then the correctest term is probably “Bunreacht no hÉireann” as the Irish takes precedence. Similarly, there is no Irish Parliament, merely the Oireachtas (or Dáil Éireann if you want simply the most important bit of the legislature).
Anyway, the Constitution is primarily concerned with the rights of the citizens and the limitations on the state and I’m not sure if it covers for example, the actions of corporations. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could clarify. Second, it’s by no means specific enough to deal with all cases, and will make reference to the law e.g. 40.1
The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.
Punishment and scope must be covered for example.
So laws are required, but the Constitution deals with the most important fundamental interactions with the state, and sets an agenda that the law will have to follow. Between the Constitution, Irish Law and EU Law, I’d be surprised if there is much left uncovered these days.
Peking
“But that is totally different to what you originally claimed, which was that IQ levels amongst Irish people were very low during the 1800s”
Agreed. It would have been the same across all countries.
“You claimed this was because of lack of education.”
No i didn’t.
” That is nonsense, IQ levels do not go up or down based on education. Simple fact”
I don’t think it’s that simplistic. Regularly doing maths/problems (a form of education) can improve (albeit temporarily) IQ.
“DISCRIMINATION law, ie laws designed to discriminate, as you refer to, would cover the likes of the apartheid legislation that existed previously in South Africa.”
Apartheid still exists in South Africa btw. It’s just a little more subtle. The ANC got the running of the state but it was stripped off it’s assets and rendered toothless by the departing National Party and associated special interests.
“If you must be a pedant, then the correctest term…”
If he must be a pedant then he’ll surely point out that there is no such word as “correctest”.
Consul
I agree with your first para. Merely pointing out what it says in the GFA and the high liklihood that the southern gov of the day would bend over backwards to allay unionist fears.
“Regularly doing maths/problems (a form of education) can improve (albeit temporarily) IQ.”
Well it sure as hell hasn’t improved yours.
Willow
If you don’t understand that Sinn Féin and the SDLP for example are socialist despite the S in SDLP and Sinn Féins oft repeated mantra for their 32 county socialist republic then I suppose your confusion re my last comment is entirely understandable.
“Well it sure as hell hasn’t improved yours.”
Does ‘man’ look the same as ‘ball’ to you? If it does we may have found a dyslexic root to your uncalled for attack.
consul
Behave yourself, even the labour party (B or I, whichever one you like) isn’t socialist any more.
I don’t see B or I Labour in NI do you? Whether they are socialist or not is irrelevant. Tell me why you think subvention to the degree it has reached in NI isn’t socialism.
SDLP is nationalist, akin to green tories. Paddy Devlin and Gerry Fitt left the party because of its lack of socialism. It was they who insisted on “labour” in the name, much against Hume’s wishes.
Sinn Fein is an extreme nationalist party, about as socialist as the Nazis: and they had socialist in their party name as well, BTW.
NEXT!!!!
Tell me what their constitutional preference has to do with their day to day policies. When you’ve explained why patronage politics isn’t socialism maybe you can tell me what their politics are if not socialism.
Dewi ,
‘One of the most influential effects of the famine was to create a fairly intensely nationalistic diaspora ‘
True and predominantly in the USA and to an extent in Australia – a case of absence /distance making the heart less fond ?-
Those who ‘moved’ to the UK were mostly quiescent or put their political energies to the social reform movements which gathered pace in Britain in the 19th century and later. Without the Irish American financial backing and support the Free State might never have been born or survived more than a decade IMO.
‘I’ll stop stating the obvious.’
as we head towards 400?
Commendable strategy
Consul
‘When I see them quack I’ll accept they are ducks but not before.’
Never mistake a pimple for the pox and be mindful that not all who who ‘quack’ are necessarily ducks
Great win by Ireland over the Babas and without Brian O’Driscoll- Munster bate Frenchies at Toulouse . The Welsh are in for it next year
“The Welsh are in for it next year ”
You and whose Army ? Lol – best of luck in NZ…..
Willow
>>…I was misled by Wikipedia – you pointed out the exaggerated figure on Wikipedia – I acknowledged it. That’s it – doesn’t alter the substance of the point.< <
Yet you were happy to use this exaggerated figure in an attempt to downplay the Irish famine. The substance of your point remember? The Highland famine never produced much if any in the way of death or movement of people, mainly because of the money raised in Glasgow and Edinburgh to feed them. And even the much maligned landholders providing relief with boatfuls of oats going to isolated communities. So a vastly different response in Scotland to Ireland, not quite the story you tried to portray.
-PE - This is a surreal emperor and clothes moment
- Willow - How?
Perhaps the pretense at being thick becomes you willow? You seized on my evidence of perhaps hundreds of thousands of displaced persons and emigrants in the Highland clearances to somehow justify your outlandish claim that 1.7 million were forced to emigrate because of the minor Highland famine. You can keep kidding yourself as long as you like chum, but don't try and piss in my pocket and tell me it's raining. It's rude apart from anything else.
Peking
>>I can only imagine then that news of Darkley, Enniskillen, Teebane and scores of other sectarian murders of Protestant men, women and children along the border didn’t make it to Scotland.<<
Haud oan! First you claimed it was ethnic cleansing and the like now it is several brutal murderous episodes and scores of people ethnically cleansed. Unless there were only a hundred Prods along the border in the first place, I’m right about those making such silly claims as flagging themselves up as eedjits.
In context to your claims then there was ethnic cleansing and genocide going on all over the six counties of Nationalists/Catholics. Even though I’d certainly have a much better claim than you, I wouldn’t dream of making such a ludicrous claim. You actually do a disservice to actual cases of ethnic cleansing and genocide throughout the world with your infantile mutterings. Be a good boy and stop it.
Then came the Great War. Every institution, almost, in the world was strained. Great Empires have been overturned. The whole map of Europe has been changed. The position of countries has been violently altered. The modes of thought of men, the whole outlook on affairs, the grouping of parties, all have encountered violent and tremendous changes in the deluge of the world. But as the deluge subsides and the waters fall short, we see the dreary steeples of Fermanagh and Tyrone emerging once again. The integrity of their quarrel is one of the few institutions that has been unaltered in the cataclysm which has swept the world.”
Winston Churchill, 1922
Might be worthy of discussion. (although Wales’s prospects in South Africa at least as worthy)
Prionsa
Yet you were happy to use this exaggerated figure in an attempt to downplay the Irish famine.
I wasn’t.
First, I have acknowledged (possibly three times now) that the figure was wrong. Second, I wasn’t downplaying the Irish famine.
The substance of your point remember?
Yes: there was severe economic hardship and suffering in other parts of the UK. The point remains.
The Highland famine never produced much if any in the way of death or movement of people, mainly because of the money raised in Glasgow and Edinburgh to feed them. And even the much maligned landholders providing relief with boatfuls of oats going to isolated communities. So a vastly different response in Scotland to Ireland, not quite the story you tried to portray.
I note you ignore the Clearances! Rather disingenuous.
You seized on my evidence of perhaps hundreds of thousands of displaced persons and emigrants in the Highland clearances to somehow justify your outlandish claim that 1.7 million were forced to emigrate because of the minor Highland famine.
No I didn’t. Stop lying.
Dewi ,
Winnie was always good for the apt phrase as above or the snappy retort.
Shortly afer losing the 1945 election to Clement Attlee the pair passed each other in the mens room following a debate on nationalisation . Winnie furtively moved away to the furthest corner . Attlee from a standing position facing the same wall as Winnie shouted sideways to Winnie who was busily engaged finding his member to release some water .
‘Feeling a little aloof and stand offish today are we Winnie ‘ chortled Clement .
‘
‘Have to -self preservation old chap ‘ replied Winnie, pulling up his zipper and then quick as a flash ‘ I’ve noticed that when you lot see anything big you immediately want to nationalise it ‘!
Greenflag – we need to keep this going to the 12th because we are thran.
Prionsa Eoghan
I never mentioned ethnic cleansing. Those are your words, I spoke of a murderous sectarian campaign.
Did it take you from last night to look the places I mentioned up on a map?
Safer sticking to the nonsense you write about Scotland, at least you know where the locations are, if not much else.
Besides, we’ve enough long rifles in this part of the world.
“But that is totally different to what you originally claimed, which was that IQ levels amongst Irish people were very low during the 1800s. Equivalent to remedial nowadays I think you said. You claimed this was because of lack of education.
That is nonsense, IQ levels do not go up or down based on education. Simple fact.”
True , IQ levels do not go up or down based on education.
But one must take into account too the very important factors such as diet as well
environment, up bringing, etc… Such factors are relevant today with families that are classed as bottom of the socio-economic ladder.
WF,
PE has you by the short & curlies.
Or can you just NEVER admit when you are wrong??
Either way, your posts make for excellent pre-bedtime reading.
PE,
There are none who are so blind as those who cannot see.
ANO
348 posts into cyber ether.
Move on folks. I did with Led Zeppelin 10 years ago.
Now I like Fairport Convention
So it goes..
PEKING
Actually it’s ANTI-discrimination law I’m talking about, and it has everything to do with human rights legislation.
Yet you are unable to explain how!
KENSEI
The state to your South is called simply “Ireland”.
Except in the Republic of Ireland Act 1948! And we all know that “Ireland” is a misnomer (it only covers part of Ireland: the rest is in the UK).
The Constitution is therefore the Constitution of Ireland.
It’s only the constitution for the 26 counties (NI is part of the UK and is not covered).
Anyway, the Constitution is primarily concerned with the rights of the citizens and the limitations on the state and I’m not sure if it covers for example, the actions of corporations. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could clarify. Second, it’s by no means specific enough to deal with all cases, and will make reference to the law e.g. 40.1
Constitutions set out principles and rights. Legislation is necessary to supplement or add to those. The constitution alone is not enough to provide an effective anti-discrimination legal regime.
The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.
Yes, but it needs to pass laws in order that they can respect, defend and vindicate rights!
So laws are required
Exactly!
Between the Constitution, Irish Law and EU Law, I’d be surprised if there is much left uncovered these days.
Er, that was my point! The last time you left out Irish [sic] law.
CONSUL
If you don’t understand that Sinn Féin and the SDLP for example are socialist despite the S in SDLP and Sinn Féins oft repeated mantra for their 32 county socialist republic then I suppose your confusion re my last comment is entirely understandable.
Neither PSF nor the SDLP is socialist. Having the word “social” in a party’s title doesn’t make it socialist! Wise up.
A N OTHER
Or can you just NEVER admit when you are wrong??
I think this is now the FOURTH time that I have acknowledged that the figure – taken from Wikipedia – was wrong. Please do not deliberately misrepresent other posters.