A city break in Baghdad
A weekend in the Green Zone as part of the Labour Friends of Iraq’s ongoing dialogue with the Islamic Dawa Party of Prime Minister Al Maliki was gruelling but politically worthwhile.
Talking with the PM and his party colleagues, his bipartisan advisory group, the Sunni Defence Minister, MPs from various parties in the Parliament and others reinforced several themes.
First, the massive burdens of Iraq’s history and geography. The scale of the physical and psychological destruction wreaked by Saddam should never be forgotten. And Iraq is surrounded by countries which are suspicious (some with good historical reasons) and hostile for ethnic, economic and political reasons with some actively fomenting terrorism. Iraq’s neighbours prefer Iraq as a consumer rather than producer and competitor. A successful Iraq would be positive for the wider Middle East, which is why reactionary forces there want it to fail.
However, the Prime Minister’s relatively successful action against the Mehdi Army in Basra which halted the talibanisation of the city and retrieved control over the port and trade routes from them has made him popular with Sunnis and Shias and may allow him to be a popular and unifying force.
Time will tell if Iraqi forces are able to establish their writ in Mosul near the Syrian border and in Sadr City in Baghdad from where the rockets and mortars aimed at the Green Zone originate.
I have visited Iraqi Kurdistan for two week-long visits and now Baghdad for a long weekend. I have met very many politicians and others who have a deep affection for Britain, which I believe is genuine. English is widely spoken and taught at schools from a very early age.
In our meeting with MPs, I raised the issue of whether Iraq would one day like to join the Commonwealth. The answer was positive. It will be a question of priorities and timing. But Iraqi political leaders are very eager to engage with the outside world and overcome decades of isolation. You read it here first.
On a less positive note, the trade unions, which have come from near complete annihilation under Saddam to being a considerable non-sectarian force, still face needless restrictions on their work. We strongly pushed the PM and the Dawa Party to lift such restrictions and have been promised progress on this in the near future.
DOC,
Intersting blog, you are one sick puppy.
bad enough being designated the worst American President in history without facing a Nixon style ‘impeachment . As of now neither Bush nor Cheney will even dare to visit their own State of Vermont where they would apparently face arrest by the State police for violating the American Constitution .
Greenie, you are a barking mad, useful idiot…whatever substances you’re imbibing try a bit of reality soup now and again. How you can prance like some, well informed political pundit and spew this foolishness beggers the imagination. This was a British/Iraq thread…you anti-American tinfoil hatted nitwit show your true colors every time. Keep it up, no sense in bringing informed opinions into Slugger..
Dickhead.
Stooooooopid dickhead. Imho, that is.
Ted: Should I instead kill Iraqi civilians and/or revisit the horrors of the thrice accurded British Empire on them.
Blair, Bush and that black UN chancer married into the Wallenberg family (Kofi Onan or something like that) all belong at the Hague. They are war ciminals.
But then I gues you support Halliburton, Agent Orange and genetically modified Iraqis?
David, I am upset at the “God Hates Ireland” Blog attcahed to your name, not your views on Iraq.
“It was in effect a political experiment in which the US could flex its muscles by using its power to change a region in their favor.”
Yup, the target audience included US allies. They’d just been expelled from Saudi Arabia. The experiment only works if they can stay *and* do something else.
Iran is not going to be that fazed if the Brits can barely hold Basra. Saudi is not going to fret if the USA simply doesn’t have the soldiers.
It is a Hadrian versus Trajan narrative. It is about whether things are doable in the broad sense. Trajan could have went to India, he could not really hold Iraq.
Hadrian didn’t want to try to hold Scotland. Two great generals, neither of whom had even the beginnings of the idea they were defeatable and two different approaches.
We had this before with the Turks, the dominions refused to cough up the troops, the Americans walked away from their Armenian guaranntee, the Turks enouraged by the Bolsheviks were threatening Britain in Europe,
It all fell to pieces.
G.
BfB,
‘try a bit of reality soup now and again.’
OK here’s some up to date American Reality Soup courtesy of CNN .
‘AMERICAN WOMEN FORCED TO LIVE IN CARS ‘
‘Barbara Harvey climbs into the back of her small Honda sport utility vehicle and snuggles with her two golden retrievers, her head nestled on a pillow propped against the driver’s seat.
Californian Barbara Harvey says she is forced to sleep in her car with her dogs after losing her job earlier this year.
A former loan processor, the 67-year-old mother of three grown children said she never thought she’d spend her golden years sleeping in her car in a parking lot.
“This is my bed, my dogs,” she said. “This is my life in this car right now.”
Harvey was forced into homelessness earlier this year after being laid off. She said that three-quarters of her income went to paying rent in Santa Barbara, where the median house in the scenic, oceanfront city costs more than $1 million. She lost her condo two months ago and had little savings as backup.
“It went to hell in a handbasket,” she said. “I didn’t think this would happen to me. It’s just something that I don’t think that people think is going to happen to them is what it amounts to. It happens very quickly, too.”
Harvey now works part time for $8 an hour, and she draws Social Security to help make ends meet. But she still cannot afford an apartment, and so every night she pulls into a gated parking lot to sleep in her car, along with other women who find themselves in a similar predicament. Watch women who live in their cars »
There are 12 parking lots across Santa Barbara that have been set up to accommodate the growing middle-class homelessness. These lots are believed to be part of the first program of its kind in the United States, according to organizers.
The lots open at 7 p.m. and close at 7 a.m. and are run by New Beginnings Counseling Center, a homeless outreach organization.
It is illegal for people in California to sleep in their cars on streets. New Beginnings worked with the city to allow the parking lots as a safe place for the homeless to sleep in their vehicles without being harassed by people on the streets or ticketed by police. ‘
‘AMERICAN WOMEN FORCED TO LIVE IN CARS ‘
You are an absolute clacking numbskull.
But, here’s some good, on topic, news.
You must have had something to do with this. Seems to be up your alley…;-)
Bfb
a) Are lynchings in the Congo Greenflag’s fault?
b) Why just Iraq? Why not invade anyone u don’t like ? Like what’s the criteria?
Bfb,
I gather you did’nt like the taste of American reality soup then – gobshite !
PS Canada has oil too and IF you know your geography you will know Canada is closer to the USA than Iraq
The former Demcratic mayor of New York, Ed Koch, has an interesting article at Real Clear Politics which addresses some of the things that have been mentioned in this thread.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/05/history_will_redeem_bush.html
Resl clear ? Koch is talking through his proverbial rear end . The Iranians are not a world power as the Germans were in 1939 or the Soviets in 1988 nor as China will be in another 10 years . Did Mr Koch mention one word about the treatment which Palestinians have received from Israel since 1948 ? Not a word cos that’s different . Bollocks .
Israel has 200 nuclear weapons with the capacity to wipe out most of the Middle East in less than 15 mnutes . No Arab or Middle Eastern country has a nuclear weapon nor according to US foreign policy will be allowed to have one . You might be forgiven for thinking this is a case of ‘double standards’ on the part of the USA ?
Mr Orwell pointed out in his famous parody that some animals are more equal than others. This would seem to be the view of the present White House. Iraqis must have ‘democracy’ whereas Saudis can do without . The Lebanese can have any government they want as long as it’s not Hezbollah. Pakistan can have nuclear weapons but not Syria or Turkey or maybe Turkey can ? If they have oil they can’t !
The USA is trying to maintain some kind of control on Middle Eastern oil supplies as Mr Greenspan recently implied in one of his comments on the soaring price.
Sadly by pursuing this senseless war for 5 years the USA has only further antagonised the Islamic world and driven the price of oil from 28 dollars a barrel to 130 dollars a barrel .
If this is judged the price of success then waht other ‘successes’ can we look forward to in the remaining months of the Bush ‘disaster’ ? 200 dollars a barrel .
Presidents Obama or Clinton will have a lot of cleaning up to do after this idiot.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7411466.stm
George Bush is coming back to Ireland. Can Ireland not be cleaned of genocidally minded rits and Americans? Every American GI and Brit squaddie is a war ciminal but all pale into comparison when compared to Bush and his Brit poodle.
Any Labourite who supports the genocide/pacification pattern in Iraq should also be tried. What was good enough for the SS should be good enough for the criminal British Labour party and their stooges.
The invasion of Iraq was a crime against the peace. Castration is too good for them.
Greenflag and Dave,
It sounds like you guys use Slugger as part of your anger management routine. Wouldn’t like to meet you on a dark night!
Greenflag: The Iranians are not a world power
No, but 1 nuke in the hands of those nice folks would be more dangerous than 1,000’s in the hands of the USSR
Did Mr Koch mention one word about the treatment which Palestinians have received from Israel since 1948 ?
No, but somebody did mention the fact that the moment the British flag was lowered, when Israel gained its independence, most of the Palestinians moved into neighbouring Arab countries so that tens of millions of Arabs could annihilate the 600,000+ people in the new Jewish state.
Of course the perpetually deficient Arab armies have failed miserably.
double standards Sure, because Israel = western-style, accountable democracy; Arabs and Persian countries = military/family/religious dictatorships sometimes lead by unpredictable fanatics who glorify death rather than life
200 dollars a barrel supply and demand, seller’s market, basic economics, Greenflag. I’m sure you have heard of China and India.
Dave,
Actually, I think Mr Bush is just coming to Northern Ireland.
6countyprod,
Thanks for the link. I always enjoy irony.
The article you linked to doesn’t mention Prescott Bush or his father-in-law George Herbert Walker.
I guess they have been redeemed by history too.
Who says the Israelis are unforgiving when they can allow someone whose family fortune comes from supporting the Nazis and their concentration camps to give a lecture in Israel on Nazi appeasement?
6countyprod and dave o’connell
Sounds like you two use slugger to display ‘naivete’ in 6countyprod posts and
utter barking nuttiness in dave o’connell’s
‘most of the Palestinians moved into neighbouring Arab countries’
So they did’nt flee for their lives then ? Read your history not propaganda. And no Palestine was not empty when Jewish settlers moved in.
How many Iranian/Iraqi/Syrian/Arab divisions are occupying the USA ?
‘Israel = western-style, accountable democracy’
Yes if you’re Jewish . If you are an Israeli west bank Palestinian you would know different . Anybody who has ever visited Israel will update your ignorance in this regard.
’200 dollars a barrel supply and demand, seller’s market, basic economics’
Sure and this is why the oil company execs are now being grilled before an American Government committee on their ‘gouging’ of the american consumer .
Present supply and demand would have the oil price in the 60 to 70 dollar a barrel range -not at 135 heading to 200. It’s called price fixing .
Of course many Arab producers would rather have oil in the ground which has real non depreciating value than more devaluing USA dollars of which the world is already oversupplied . The USA is now relying on the Asian ‘investors’ to keep the dollar from declining even further.
wilde rover.
irony ? there’s more
The Israelis are even more forgiving than that. Never a word is raised in Israel re the Bush family’s decades long friendship and alliance with those other friends of Israel the Saudi Royal family.
More encouraging news today on excellent progress in Iraq and in the general jihad against Islamofascism. Doesn’t look like the BBC and the Guardian have noticed, though.
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5iJciaxCBODpiOZKXuLS73Q0gpaBA
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23743270-5013478,00.html
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/05/22/terrorism-on-the-decline-and-the-surge-is-working-un/
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/05/22/michael-yon-on-iraq-the-progress-is-unbelievable/
‘No, but somebody did mention the fact that the moment the British flag was lowered, when Israel gained its independence, most of the Palestinians moved into neighbouring Arab countries so that tens of millions of Arabs could annihilate the 600,000+ people in the new Jewish state.’
First off, israel declared ‘statehood’ not ‘independence’, although its often mistakenly referred to as such. There was no Israel in existence to liberate, no Israel that became independent, merely an artifically created state ontop of the land of another people backed up by a manipulated and bullied vote at the UN in ’47.
Secondly the idea that most pf the plestinians moved to allow other arab countries to annihilate the Jews is blatant lies and propaganda. Read a little real history especially Erskine Childers study of the near east mointoring stations and local newspapers of the area at that time. The truth is there, you just have to be willing to see it.
a) Are lynchings in the Congo Greenflag’s fault?
No question.
b) Why just Iraq? Why not invade anyone u don’t like ? Like what’s the criteria?
Ya, that’s it. We don’t like them…that’s the ticket…
This is more like the results we’re looking for.
PS.. We don’t like them, either.
Republicansstones,
thanks for the challenge and clarifications.
If Encarta is to be believed: …the British government in 1947 decided to leave Palestine and called on the League of Nations’ successor, the UN, to make recommendations. In response the UN … adopted a plan similar to the earlier British ones calling for the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem as an international zone under UN jurisdiction; the Jewish and Arab states would be joined in an economic union. The partition resolution was endorsed by a vote of 33 to 13, supported by the United States and the Soviet Union. The British abstained.
…In Palestine, Arab protests against the partition plans, … erupted in violence. Attacks on Jewish settlements soon developed into a full-scale civil war. The British generally refused to intervene, intent on leaving the country no later than August 1, 1948.
When it became clear that the British in fact intended to leave by May 15, leaders of the Yishuv decided to implement that part of the partition plan calling for establishment of a Jewish state. In Tel Aviv on May 14 the Provisional State Council, formerly the National Council, “representing the Jewish people in Palestine and the World Zionist Movement”, proclaimed the “establishment of the Jewish State in Palestine, to be called Medinat Israel (the State of Israel)
…Israeli forces immediately moved to seize substantial parts of the land allocated to the proposed Arab state. Many Arabs were driven from their homes; others fled in panic.
… on May 15 the armies of Egypt, Transjordan (now Jordan), Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq joined Palestinian and other Arab guerrillas who had been fighting Jewish forces since November 1947. The civil war now became an international conflict, the first Arab-Israeli War, called the war of independence by Israel.
So, I was probably wrong in saying ‘most’ Palestinians’ left to enable the Arab armies to wipe out the new Jewish state. Some were forced and others left of their own accord. I’m wondering, however, how much of that actually took place between May 14 and May 15. I’m sure the Israelis were at lot more concerned about the Arabs military hoards on their borders than a bunch of pastoralists.
But, of course, if the Arabs and Palestinians had been willing to share Palestine with the Jews, who, after all had a 3,000 year-old claim to the land, we would not have had all the bloodshed of the past 60 years. Kinda like some folks on the Emerald Isle not wanting to share the island with those nasty old Celts and Anglo Saxons from Scotland and England.
Greenie,,,
Canada? Don’t flatter yourself. Besides, we have this boondogle to bail us out……not…
But this would be worth a good old Boston ass kicking”It’s still illegal in Canada for private healthcare providers to compete with the government monopoly. Only North Korea and Cuba—two impoverished, brutal, communist dictatorships—still retain such restrictions.”
And good man Ezra Levant could convince me to send off a surveillance drone looking for some kind of rational thought. Although this portends a different future for you poor dhimmi bastards.. “Being politically correct and multicultural, the CBC would not want to offend a minority community by prominently announcing the most important news, namely, that a substantial portion of their number do not mind seeing their fellow citizens blown to smithereens, their national legislative body desecrated and the country’s leader decapitated. It’s as if the CBC ideologues wish we infidels would just go quietly to our deaths, so that the radical Muslims could kill us with a clear conscience, thus keeping their precious dream of a multicultural Canada alive.”
Tsk, tsk.
Greenflag
“The Israelis are even more forgiving than that. Never a word is raised in Israel re the Bush family’s decades long friendship and alliance with those other friends of Israel the Saudi Royal family.”
I just finished reading Craig Unger’s ‘House of Bush, House of Saud’ and to say I was underwhelmed would be to put it mildly.
I had often heard of this great Bush/Saud connection and I expected to find a searing indictment of the two dynasties but when I went there I found there was no there there.
It’s about 160 pages into the book before we find out what this great connection is supposed to be (the first half of the book is merely a history lesson in US and Middle East politics) and apparently it all boils down to the Carlyle Group.
Despite there not actually being any link between the Saudis and Carlyle, Unger bases the whole thing on arms sales that some Carlyle subsidiaries made to the Saudi government. But the most staggering thing is that Dubya doesn’t have any links to Carlyle, he had a brief period in an aircraft leasing company which he then left but er, that’s it.
On the other hand former Clinton and Carter administration hacks are up to their eyeballs with Carlyle, many of them prominent Jews and most damning of all one of the biggest shareholders is none other than rabid Bush hater George Soros.
Once again I suggest GF that you leave aside your student union ant-American conspiracy seeking and look around at actual hard facts otherwise you are going to be in an awful state come January 2009 when you won’t have GW Bush to obsess about any more.
The Saudis have not really given Israel a hard time. A friendship with Britain and the UK would have been very difficult if Saudi Arabia developed a practical negativity. Do the Saudis actually care about the Palestinians?
G.
‘But, of course, if the Arabs and Palestinians had been willing to share Palestine with the Jews, who, after all had a 3,000 year-old claim to the land, we would not have had all the bloodshed of the past 60 years. Kinda like some folks on the Emerald Isle not wanting to share the island with those nasty old Celts and Anglo Saxons from Scotland and England.’
Sharing Palestine with the jews they had been for generations. The zionists wanted to take land which was not theirs and create a NEW state, and name it Israel. 3000 year old claim to the land?????? tell me do you think the palestinians/arabs just appeared out of thin air? do you think they only arrived with Islam? no of course they didn’t, the palestinians are a semetic people to, can claim descendancy from the cannanites like other people of the region. This ‘claim’ is enshrined in a book written by Jews for Jews claiming lands not of Jews, so people who don’t adhere to that book just have to sit back and take it do they?????? Its funny that zionists will claim palestine is theirs by right of what it says in the torah, but they won’t adhere to the Mosaic Law enshrined in the Torah as well. They pick and choose to suit their own ends. Read about Neturei Karta, and what those Jews say about the state of Israel. and the idea that they were jews living in those lands for 1000s of years so its fair game, is rather like Hitler’s assumption that because Germanic people had been dwelling in the land of the slavic people for ages that that was Germanys right as well. Utter bollox. and your crack about Ireland is complete nonsense, there is a huge difference between being willing to share your country, and being willing for it to be ruled by another. therein lies the difference.
‘It’s still illegal in Canada for private healthcare providers to compete with the government monopoly.’
Intelligent people the Canadians . The private health care system in the USA enriches the drug companies , keeps the legal fraternity in clover and ensure’s that some 50 million Americans don’t have health insurance . It’s an absolute and utter disgrace to a so called ‘civilised’ country .
Having a private health care only system has ensured that American Health insurance companies in order to keep their ‘shareholders’ happy have to make sure that only the ‘healthy’ can get insurance and that those who have ‘previous ‘ conditions are excluded . The enormous profits made by these companies in recent decades has come at the expense of the average American who has seen his/her life expectancy reduce , and this despite total health care expenditure amount to over 15 % of GDP a much higher percentage than any European country .
The Japanese healt care system totally government run costs less than half what the USA pays and every Japanese person is covered . Not only that but Japanese life expectancy is 3 to 4 years more than the USA’s.
So why can’t Americans learn from other countries like Japan or Canada or Germany as to how to run a public health care system ?
Pride ? Stupidity ? or just another example of arrogant empire ? Or the country is now so much in debt that it won’t be able to afford it for another generation or two.
republican stones:
‘ there is a huge difference between being willing to share your country, and being willing for it to be ruled by another. therein lies the difference.’
Well said and might I say very apt . Perhaps the USA may learn from the mistakes of the British , French and other empires ?
I read that one of Mr McCain’s religious backers /advisors made a statement that God sent Adolf Hitler to Earth to make sure that the Jewish people would be forced to return to Israel after which presumably God could make good on his /her other promise to bring forward the ‘end times ‘ and consign them also to hell seeing as they are not Christians .
Now if you were Jewish or Israeli how could you not look forward to such a deal ? Think about it . First this God sets about ensuring that millions of Jewish people are exterminated and then just to show there’s no harm done this same God ‘intervenes’ so that an Israeli State can be established and then he/she /it will be able to deliver the final coup de grace by descending to Earth in an end time display – rapturising the faithful (fundamentalist Christians only ) and then consigning everybody else including the Jews to eternal hell fire and damnation ?
Pardon my French but somehow I don’t believe that the Jewish people will or would ever be keen supporters of this heavenly ‘deal’.
It’s absolutely unbelievable the amount of shite that these American fundamentalist religious nutters spout . What’s even worse is that several presidential candidates have already been forced to disown/ rebuke / or disavow their former ‘religious ‘mentors .
I think Clinton may still be the only one left who has kept a long spoon between herself and the nutty brigades of far right fundamentalism and the lunatic fringe from which they draw their support:(
Christ of almighty Greenflag! You’re not on about that ‘rapture’ shite again are you? You really suck that Michael Moore stuff up don’t you?
Seriously, what are you going to do when Dubya leaves office?
What will you talk about?
‘You really suck that Michael Moore stuff up don’t you?’
Some of what Moore says is regrettably too true to be believable . But to be honest I prefer George Soros’s analysis of the american economy .
‘Seriously, what are you going to do when Dubya leaves office? ‘
Like the Jews who left Vienna when Hitler came to power I’ll not suffer from nostalgia . Most americans and indeed people around the world will
feel the same imo. Chap has been an unmitigated disaster from day one .
‘What will you talk about? ‘
Manure happens everywher-There’s always that
Greenie,
Soros?? I’m stunned that he has such influence on you /sarc….
this Georgie “regulate, regulate”, or
this one?
‘All of this makes us think of George Soros, who apparently believes his money makes him a player on the world’s stage — someone to whom other people should listen and respect. Worse yet, these “other” people are beguiled into actually believing this nonsense. The thinking goes something like this. “All my life I have directed all my energies into making as much money as possible. Now, this man makes more in one day than I make in twenty years. Therefore, he must be a genius.” But, if a baseball player hit 500 home runs, would that make him anything other than a home run hitter? If a tap dancer knocks your socks off and sounds like a combination of Fred Astaire and Bojangles would you say he is anything more than a great tap dancer? Would you go to him to have your tonsils taken out or for advice as to which mutual fund to buy?’
Not for nothin’, some bad news for you…..
BfB,
I’m aware that Soros has changed some of his views over time . This is a talent that is obviously unknown to people of your ilk . Try it you might even make an extra buck or two !
I happen to believe in the ‘market’ system in general. I just don’t happen to believe it works particularly well in the areas of public health and education in the USA . Why else would the average american student be so far behind those of other developed countries . Why else would American life epectancy and infant mortality rates be so high ? Why else would the USA with 5% of the world’s population have 25% of the world’s prison population.
Anyway no time today to piss on you . I’ve got to start building my bunker in the back garden. I hear that the Iranian Army has invaded Russia taken Moscow and is now heading for Berlin where they will ally with the local Turkish immigrants and defeat the pansy Germans . Then it’s on to France and England . I know you told us the French will capitulate within a day and the Brits are no longer what they once were in the good old days of empire and sticking it to the natives .
If I was you I’d start preparing a bunker too as we Irish in general have had an abysmal record in defending the country from invasion . Oh shit I just heard on the radio that the Iranian Navy the bastards have decided to take England in the rear and at this moment have apparently sailed into Cork Harbour . Our gallant Leesiders resisted for 10 minutes before they surrendered to the aroma of exotic Iranian food !
I’d watch your rear BFb . Those Canadians don’t have much of an army . The Iranians will make mince meat of them . Perhaps the Mexicans will save your butt !
NFO.
Greenie…
Dementia at such a young age…..pity.
I’m off, attending many memorial services for the brave men and women who have put their lives on the line for freedom all over the world (even for toadies like yourself). My grandfather was seriously wounded while fighting for the USA in France. His citizenship was delivered with his discharge papers. Something he held close his whole life. He didn’t have a good word for the Irish he left back home who turned on the men who fought for a free island. People maybe like yourself, but I hope not. Say what you will, the USA is a great country and will remain so. Wish I could say the same for where you live.
As for the educational comment, liberal, socialists bastards is what’s made our younger generations a bunch of remedial readers. My children and their children are Catholic school products..right smart, and successful. Not easy for white Catholic men these days……
God Bless America…first
Then everybody else…
My grandfather was seriously wounded while fighting for the USA [...] He didn’t have a good word for the Irish he left back home who turned on the men who fought for a free island.
Since when is the US an island?
And why should the Irish fight for it?
America is doomed. Go check out our mother website if checking the price of gas is too much to ask.
The criminal invasion of Iraq follows the same game plan as the 1898 war with Spain.
Did your granda rape English women too like so manny of his comrades in arms? How many impoverished frauleins did the horny liberator have his way with? or did he take sticky seconds from the Reds?
Michael Moore spoke about Bush letting Osama’s family get out of Dodge after 9-11. Guess who was real chummy with Herr Hitler? none other than Prescott Bus$$h.
Bottom line is Islam is on the rise. Thaniks Yanks.
‘I’m off, attending many memorial services for the brave men and women who have put their lives on the line for freedom all over the world’
And so you should . The world is grateful for their sacrifice.
‘My grandfather was seriously wounded while fighting for the USA in France.’
You meant I’m sure fighting to help the French regain their freedom . America owes a debt of gratitude to the French without whom the USA would not have won it’s independence well not in 1776 anyway.
‘ His citizenship was delivered with his discharge papers’
And the same is happening today as many poor hispanics and others get their citizenship by putting their lives on the line . I don’t know about you but I believe ‘conscription via the draft is much more in keeping with the democratic ideal.
‘He didn’t have a good word for the Irish he left back home who turned on the men who fought for a free island. People maybe like yourself’
I was’nt around at the time but we lost family too during both the rebellion and the subsequent civil war on both sides .
‘the USA is a great country ‘
That it is and we hope it will regain it’s lost status in the world after the past 8 years of misgovernance , wasted lives and spendthrift economics .
‘ Wish I could say the same for where you live.’
Ireland is not a great country. It’s a small country like most european countries outside of the 5 or 6 bigger ones . We do the best we can with the resources we’ve got .
‘My children and their children are Catholic school products..right smart, and successful’
I’m delighted to hear it . I take it then you must have more than the average American income for the average American would have to take out another mortgage to be able to afford to send his children to Catholic school .
‘Not easy for white Catholic men these days’……
Despite the high class education ? I would have thought it’s a lot more difficult for illegal immigrants, younger african americans , and the bush baptist white working class in the Appalachian country . Of course it’s been getting difficult even for the former ‘middle class’ who are now reaping the ‘benefits’ of misdirected government policy and a too credulous attitude and belief that the hidden hand of the ‘market’ will eventually fix all America’s social and economic ills . Newsflash – it won’t .
‘God Bless America…first’
Don’t you think this is being somewhat demanding on a universal God ? What about his chosen people then . Should’nt they come first ?
‘Then everybody else…’
Oh great -thanks very much God -nice to know we Irish are on the list even if way down towards the bottom of page one
. But please make sure to bless us before the bloody English and please make those Unionists wait till the very end before blessing them ungrateful shower of reprobates and only bless them when you’ve finished blessing all the rest :
‘As for the educational comment, liberal, socialists bastards is what’s made our younger generations a bunch of remedial readers.’
Eh ? Do some research on the educational standards in a real ultra liberal socialist State like say Sweden or some of the other western and northern European states or Japan , Singapore or even China (communist ) .
dave o connell,
So you have escaped from the straitjacket again
Have you considered being reborn again -next time an improvement perhaps from gobshite class v to turd class 1
Harry/bfb
Personally I could never hope to decipher the wherefores of the reasons to invade Iraq. What strikes me though is the stunning lack of planning for the aftermath. Laying off the Bathists and the army. Creating enemies amongst the guys who knew where the arms dumps where………………crazy! How the fuck were they supposed to feed their families?
The fact that while smiling(relevence? none, but this was in the video i saw) GI’s were ordered not to interfere with the mass lootings going on, including the antiquities museums(cradle of civilisation and all that), is in my mind criminal. Could anyone explain to me why the oil ministry was the only government building allocated an armed guard to stop the looters?
A few points there PE, the reason why it was the right thing not to keep on the Baathists was because it would look a bit stupid if you were invading a country to remove a tyranny and then simply knocking off the top half dozen while leaving all the low level thugs in place, to have done so would have merely confirmed that regime change was not real.
Can you imagine telling the Kurds and Shias whose families’ blood splattered the walls of the Baathist torture chambers that the bastards who did it would still be in charge of them? No the whole rotten baathist thugocracy had to be ripped asunder and a new system put in place. The easiest thing for the Americans to do would have been to decapitate the leadership and leave the others in place, ‘meet the new boss, just like the old boss’, it is greatly to the Americans’ credit that they chose the tougher, more expensive and honourable option.
As regards the looting of the museum I’m afraid that is all a bit of myth, there were some artefacts stolen, mainly by senior staff as it turned out but most have now been recovered. As to protecting the Oil ministry, well better to secure the future of Iraq than the past. The only way Iraq can survive and thrive, as it is now beginning to do is by the revenues of the oil sales being used for the benefit of the Iraqi people, so it made excellent sense to protect the most vital piece of infrastructure in Iraq.
What appals me is how so many people allow themselves to be blinded by their irrational hatred of George Bush that they would actually prefer to see the people of Iraq be defeated the head hacking fanatics of Al Queda and their Baathist allies win.
That is truly shameful, when dreadful pro-Stalinists like Michael Moore feel that they would like to see the fascists defeat the young Iraqi Republic then any self respecting liberal should have no hesitation in wishing the greatest of success to the Iraqi people and their legitimate democratic government.
What evidence do you have for your statement that Michael Moore is pro-Stalinist, Flashman?
How much benefit are Iraqis getting from their oil, compared with the American companies who are exploiting the resource?
What other explanation can you or anyone give me for the fact that the US didn´t have a proper post-invasion plan for the country. The only one that has ever occurred to me is that they didn´t and don´t really giving a flying f**k about the ´Irawkee puh-eeple´.
well said Harry Flashman. if Dubya’s dad hadn’t been such a wuss we’d have had regime change a decade earlier, to everyone’s benefit.
The merest perusal of the lumpen oaf Moore’s biography will show him to be a Stalinist of the old fashioned kind, through to the bone.
He hates America and in the fashion of Stalinists in the past he is quite happy to align himself with fascists when he feels the need arises.
Currently the Iraqi people are receiving more benefits from their oil than they ever did when the ghastly Saddam clan were in power, no more oil money spent on bribing George Galloway or for building Saddam’s palaces or rape rooms for Uday and Qusay.
That’s good, isn’t it?
Harry
>>it was the right thing not to keep on the Baathists was because it would look a bit stupid if you were invading a country to remove a tyranny and then simply knocking off the top half dozen while leaving all the low level thugs in place, to have done so would have merely confirmed that regime change was not real.< <
On the surface fair points Harry. Although ignoring the reality that millions of petty civil servants had to join the bath party, it was a means of keeping their jobs and possible promotion. Surely even you, renowned for wild claims cannot spin that they were all petty thugs. The victorious allies in WW2 used German, Italian and Japanese state apparatus to continue the smooth running of their respective countries. In some parts of the far east the imperial army was used for months after VJ day as well as the civil administration. So the precedent is there. Giving the snake a new head would have sufficed in the medium term.
The utter stupidity of creating millions of enemies overnight in the army and civil service cannot be overstated. Coalition forces did not have the manpower to guard all of the known arms dumps never mind those secreted away for a rainy day. Rumsfeld rode roughshot over the groundwork done in the following months of the occupation that would have ensured a smooth practically trouble free transition. Those US diplomats and ex-generals had whole divisions ready to turn out to keep order. And order is what people want in times of crisis.
>>it is greatly to the Americans’ credit that they chose the tougher, more expensive and honourable option.< <
Sure Harry, the resulting chaos, and families of the hundreds of thousands of dead, including thousands of US families might not agree with your gung ho support.
>>As regards the looting of the museum I’m afraid that is all a bit of myth, there were some artefacts stolen, mainly by senior staff as it turned out but most have now been recovered.< <
The myths I saw with my own eyes. Historical artifacts destroyed, trampled on, others carried away by people in front of US soldiers(smiling away). They did not look like senior staff. I believe that some staff deserve praise for stashing away some of the artefact's in safety, days spent pleading with the US authorities for protection certainly brought no reward.
>>As to protecting the Oil ministry, well better to secure the future of Iraq than the past. The only way Iraq can survive and thrive, as it is now beginning to do is by the revenues of the oil sales being used for the benefit of the Iraqi people, so it made excellent sense to protect the most vital piece of infrastructure in Iraq.<<
Hmmmmmmmm, I’m sure that food, electricity and fuel supplies meant more in terms of infrastructure to the people Harry. Do you not find it extraordinary that this was the only building protected whilst all of the looting was going on? Was the oil ministry the only building worthy of protection?
I believe that all sides are now armed to the teeth with US supplied weapons. First the Kurds, then the new Iraqui army and shia militia’s. Now the Sunni militia’s are provided arms and paid not to attack US or Iraqui forces. A perfect recipe for your “new young Iraqui Republic” to prosper Harry.
PE,
‘What strikes me though is the stunning lack of planning for the aftermath.’
Those who fail to plan- plan to fail. Do remember they also scurried out of Afghanistan (no Oil ) as soon as they could -leaving that country in chaos and are now having to return to shore up the regime with the help of NATO allies . When Pakistan’s general bites the dust there’ll be another pandora’s box loosed upon the region.
The ‘conditions ‘ in Iraq for implementing western style democracy were nowhere near those which pertained in either Japan or Germany post world war 2 . All the more reason for the Americans to have had a post Saddam interim regime ready , willing and able .
The elder Bush wanted Jeb to be President and not the second son and now no Bush will have a bats chance in hell until perhaps the next millenium .
Greenflag
‘What strikes me though is the stunning lack of planning for the aftermath.’
To compound the mistake, they had guys on the ground quick smart doing good work. deals being arranged left right and centre, building relations and goodwill with Iraqui army and top civil servants. Crash bang, Rumsfeld and his cronies decided arbitrarily from Washington that they were going to do their own thing and got rid of all those capable of wielding power. Instantaneously they created millions of enemies with no means to feed their families. And these guys knew where the guns were………………..tragically stupid!
Interestingly I watched a docu (I sky plus docu’s religiously) about how countries like the UAE on the one extreme to Malaysia on the other manage fine and well without what we might consider a fully functioning democracy. People are happy, living standards are high. The upshot was, and I was surprised at the power of the argument. That perhaps railroading a western type democracy into an eastern type society might be the wrong tack.
>>When Pakistan’s general bites the dust there’ll be another pandora’s box loosed upon the region.<<
Yep, Pakistan is set for massive upheaval. From Baluchistan to the northern all but autonomous tribal areas. Not to mention the massively under-reported sectarian war bubbling away between Shia and Sunni. Also the secularists pushing for the rule of law countered by Islamic radicals and Generals jousting for power. A right royal rumble potentially I’d say.
Right I’ll grant that you PE and Greenflag are world renowned strategic experts at overthrowing rogue fascistic regimes and accept that the United States committed grievous errors in the campaigns in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I concede all that.
Now we are where we are today, would you concede that despite all that may or may not have gone on in the past the only position that decent, liberal minded people could possibly take with those two nations today is that the democracies in both nations survive? That the fascistic ‘insurgents’ are not only defeated but handed such a defeat that they never raise their ugly heads again?
Is that not the only position that anyone could possibly take with a clear conscience? Or are there those people who live in the west who are so blinded by their deranged hatred of a president who will be gone from office anyway in eight months that they would rather see the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan succumb to the horrors of the Baathists, Al Queada and the Taliban?
That is truly shameful, when dreadful pro-Stalinists like Michael Moore feel that they would like to see the fascists defeat the young Iraqi Republic then any self respecting liberal should have no hesitation in wishing the greatest of success to the Iraqi people and their legitimate democratic government.
Greenflag: I see you are doing personal attacks on me, in between defending The Great Satan. Michael “Uncle Joe” Moore is a bread headed airhead who has organized attacks on the Westboro Baptist Church. The “young Iraqi republic” is a puppet state that will be sundered in Israel’s interests (One country under Israel). The guy above is taking the mick, saying the Iraqi regime is legitimate. (they got hooded thugs to lynch the legitimate president).
The Bush family – remember Prescott, Hitler’s pal – should be shipped off to The Hague. Their pet dog too. America: the world’s leading rogue nation (of fat asses)
The Iraqis are quite right to resist the most evil country that ever existed. Nazism with a Colgate smile.
Incidentally, fascism was a very narrow form of politics. As Peron, the Japs and others don’t fit its mold, how could Saddam’s Iraq?
Stop abusing English. Start repenting for the sins America commits. No wonder so many of you are going to hell. Justice delayed is not justice denied.
>>Right I’ll grant that you PE and Greenflag are world renowned strategic experts at overthrowing rogue fascistic regimes< <
Is it toy throwing time Harry? All I did was make some pertinent points. Can't we deal with them without petty attacks?
>>liberal minded people could possibly take with those two nations today is that the democracies in both nations survive?< <
Well Liberal minded sorta rules you out aul boy, wouldn't you agree? As for democracies, I'm not sure if a democracy would work in the way we understand it, I've already made some points to that effect. In effect we in the west could be chasing oor arses.
>>That the fascistic ‘insurgents’ are not only defeated but handed such a defeat that they never raise their ugly heads again?<<
Well the Yanks seem to have bought off the Sunni insurgents with weapons and money. Makes it a bit harder to defeat them, oh and the shia insurgents have more than enough US supplied weaponry to potentially match the Sunni insurgency. That leaves Al Q, whose influence I believe has been overstated. The vast majority of attacks came from local Sunni’s, you know the ones put on the dole(does iraq have the dole?) by US foreign policy, many of these former insurgents are now temporarily on the side of the US. Perhaps until the next SNAFU by the US or the money runs out.
And despite your constant ranting on that subject, what you state in your final para, I don’t reckon applies to me.
PE, I don’t “rant”, no more than you do, ok? I put my point of view, you put yours, neither of us “rant”, fair enough?
Now, I notice you singularly fail to answer my question, you are happy enough to harp on about the past, but you still can not come out and state for the record that you would like to see the Al Queada/Baathists/Taliban lose, that tells me a lot.
When I read your and Greenflag’s posts above where you almost appear to be licking your lips at the prospect of the poor people of Pakistan falling victim to the horrors of the Taliban, I think I learn all I need to know about where you stand with regard to the imposition of fascistic terror on the Muslim peoples of the world.
Freedom for the Irish and Scots only, let the Muslims live under medieval, fascists as long as it makes the Yanks look bad.
Shameful, truly shameful.
I think a favoured expression in your part of the world is that “you have lost the run of yourself”
How can anyone read the above and not relate it to the ravings of a madman?
Totally uncalled for Harry, I was right the toys have came crashing out of the pram.
More bad news.
I was right the toys have came crashing out of the pram.
I think he means you’re right Harry.
I think you are too.