Has IFA made a hash of its re-organisation?
This looks like a proverbial can of worms. The Irish News reports that a complex points system “scored on various criteria, including facilities, underage structures, financial planning, coaching aptitude and success on the field” has seen Donegal Celtic excluded from a reduced IFA Premier League next year, despite them effectively finishing five places ahead of Bangor, who gained promotion from the Intermediate league. Understandably, the manager is livid:
“We’d 610 points last year and we’ve 543 points this year, so somebody has got their sums wrong,” slammed Bonner. “Every obstacle that has been put in front of us we’ve jumped it. Now, I’ll have to stand in front of 380 members and tell them we got to the semi-finals of the Irish Cup and that we finished in 11th place, but we’re no longer in senior football because there is a team [Bangor] in ahead of us who have not competed at senior level for 12 years.” [Emphasis added]
Hmmm… It looks like the IFA may have some explaining to do… Bonner adds to the intrigue when he reveals there is a dispute between the IFA and the Sports Council over £800,000 supposedly ear marked for ground improvements at Celtic.
Adds: It should be noted that fifth-placed Portadown also lose the place in the top flight for not filling in their forms in time. Bureaucracy gone mad!!
Darth
“…it’s best to ignore it, because it’s not based on reality.”
I think you’ve succintly summed up the attitude of the local soccer crowd towards criticisms emanating from the nationalist community.
DC’s demotion? Nothing to see here.
Cliftonville’s “home games” at Windsor? Go back to sleep.
Derry City’s effective expulsion? It’s all in your head.
Belfast Celtic? It never happened.
As you point out Darth, towns like Newry, Armagh, Omagh, Dungannon, Enniskillen and so on are GAA crazy, and soccer can scarcely get a look in. The fact that the IFA has zero credibility among the nationalist community is not really a problem for the nationalist community, but it’s a huge problem for the IFA.
Without significant nationalist support, the IFA will always be seen as an ethnically pure dung heap, and that’s just as off-putting for middle unionism as for nationalism. The IFA needs nationalists to help it develop beyond the loyalist ghetto it finds itself in.
But they’ll have to begin by acknowledging the baggage that exists – or to use a very Catholic term, to accept their Original Sins.
Given this context, the demotion of DC isn’t helpful.
Are Derry City applying to the southern tax payers to transform their race track into a football stadium or do they expect the North to pick up the tab.
I believe they are. Looking for 5 million from the Irish taxpayers apparently.
By the way, as people in Derry are northern taxpayers, they are looking for another 5 from the North.
Derry tax payers, there aren’t enough employed in the bogside to run a sweet shop, they live off the Londonderry taxpayers.
Billy Pilgrim
“The IFA needs nationalists to help it develop beyond the loyalist ghetto it finds itself in.”
Do you think the far wealthier GAA needs Unionists to help it develop beyond a republican ghetto? Just a thought.
I can´t help feeling as tripe goes this statement is the a la carte of tripe. Yes the IFA has problems, which stretch far beyond sectarian politics. It needs to sell itself more as a product and requires it´s members to be forward thinking and professional. The door has not been closed shut on Donegal Celtic, neither are they being punished. The fact is they fell short of what was expected from all clubs over the last two years.
It is in fact the desire of certain Nationalists to label the IFA as bigots as it suits their political agenda of “we oppose anything which is not on an all ireland basis”.
The fact is Billy many people from a Nationalist background are involved with the IFA, wether that be in a coaching capacity or playing capacity both locally and internationally. I do think more can be acheived by the IFA to show it is an all inclusive association but to say it is stuck “in a loyalist ghetto” is ill informed nonsense.
The bigger story is the non inclusion of Portadown. Incidentally had Portadown been included in the final 12 who do you think should have been pushed to one side to make room for DC.
Tommy Two (Many) Bottles,
…Trolling is alive ‘n’ kicking on SO’T!!
Thank you for a series of repeatedly mature, constructive comments that have sweet (I)FA to do with the thread…
Do you usually spend your evenings attempting to slander an entire city?
I’m surprised you can actually type, given the knuckle-dragging you excel in !!
“I think DC should be in the IL, purely based on the club’s religious…background”
I’ve heard it all now.
A N Other reckons that where you say your prayers should have been one of the scoring criteria for entry to the league.
A N Other believes that the entry criteria should be along sectarian lines.
I despair at times.
I don’t believe that this particular episode is fuelled to any extent by sectarianism but thats not to say that the IFA didn’t kick their own arse when they devised the criteria for invitation.
If the ultimate goal is to produce a viable product then Holland and Belgium have shown the way, the important passage being:
“Bringing to mind the BeNeLux economic union, the proposed new league would comprise of the best sides of each country. And while no details have been disclosed at this early stage, the likes of PSV Eindhoven, Ajax, Feyenoord, Anderlecht, Brugge and Standard would certainly play a part.
Anderlecht board member – and former highly successful manager – Michel Verschueren is said to be a passionate supporter of the idea, but the mastermind behind the plan is fellow Belgian Alain Courtois. The 56-year-old politician, who’s running the 2018 joint bid, talked about the BeNe Liga with Michel Platini, only to discover the UEFA president’s delight.
“I spoke to him concerning our ideas on the BeNe Liga,” Courtois told het Laatste Nieuws newspaper. “He reacted with enthusiasm and said that he would support a move like that. He thinks that in the future it will become more often for football competitions of European countries to join forces.”
I don’t think that there was ever any plans to merge the two national teams (Holland and Belgium) and I don’t think there is any need for it here, but I do believe that any serious ambition to bring Irish football to a respectable level by European standards unavoidably entails the formation of one single league. By a respectable level I mean (eventually) the league getting high enough up the rankings to acquire a place in the Champions League proper and also a place in the final qualifying round. We should also become accustomed to seeing 1-2 Irish clubs contesting the second round and quarter-finals season after season with maybe the occasional foray even further. This would also mean 3 or 4 teams in the UEFA Cup, a competition which Rangers demonstrated last night might not be out of reach for a club coming from a league drawn from a country/region whatever of five or six million people. Another club can try the Intertoto Cup.
The only reason I’m talking about this is because it seems it’s in the pipeline anyway, else I wouldn’t bother. Some people say what about the blazers and their cushy numbers, but with the retention of both national teams and a provincial system used as the second tier below the Premier League none of our glorius heroes need lose their jobs. I propose (not that I have any say) an 18 team Premier League; rough example:
Cork City;Limerick 37;Waterford Utd;Galway Utd;Sligo Rvrs;Bohemians;Shamrock Rvrs;St. Pats;Shelbourne;Drogheda;Longford;Dundalk;Linfield;Glentoran;Cliftonville;Portadown;Derry C;Finn Harps.
Below the Premier League, I would have four provincial 16 team divisions where the four championship winning clubs play semi-finals up; the two finalists gaining promotion and the third place playoff winner playing third from bottom in the PL for a place in the PL. All of the clubs below provincial level would play at county level. It’s beautiful, if everyone listens to me everything will be perfect.
consul
Yes ultimately I think an all Ireland Premier League will be to the betterment of football throughout Ireland. I stress that there is no real evidence to support this but it does make sense.
It is a long way off and to date the Setanta Cup hasn´t really sparked much of an interest North or South.
You also have to remember that Belgium and the Netherlands do not have the same historical sectarianism that puts a barrier to such a progressive step here in the island of Ireland. Nor is it possible for the international associations of Netherlands and Belgium to openly poach players from either association while quoting a political settlement such as the BeNeLux economic union.
There is a long way to go until such a possibility is obtainable in Ireland. Even it came about it would not stop (and rightfully so) the best players joining the English and Scottish leagues which of course are far wealthier and professional.
The days of any Irish side reaching the later stages of the Champions League are aeons away.
Now if we take a look at what you say and then take a look at Donegal Celtic´s facilities I´m sure you will agree that there is a lot to be done in Northern Ireland concerning facilities and infrastructures.
Dewi,
“A truly sectarian sporting theme That’s a bit of a shame”
Billy Pilgrim is a bit of an expert on “perception” issues – see his earlier posts.
I think “perception” might be at the root of the problem in the case you highlight, so Billy Pilgrim might be able to help you understand – especially where it involves people having a “perception” about sporting associations.
Tommy Two (Many) Bottles,
…Trolling is alive ‘n’ kicking on SO’T!!
Thank you for a series of repeatedly mature, constructive comments that have sweet (I)FA to do with the thread…
Do you usually spend your evenings attempting to slander an entire city?
I’m surprised you can actually type, given the knuckle-dragging you excel in !!
Posted by A N Other on May 15, 2008 @ 06:16 PM
Look again A N Other to see where the thread begins to slip, the usual bigots coughing up B Celtic, Cliftonville and Derry City. The thread was about DC, I wish them good luck and I just love to reel knuckle heads like you in, thanks for the bite.
Billy Pilgrim,
Following on from Dewi’s post, and my response, do you agree with the following:
“The fact that the GAA has zero credibility among the unionist community is not really a problem for the unionist community, but it’s a huge problem for the GAA.
Without significant unionist support, the GAA will always be seen as an ethnically pure dung heap, and that’s just as off-putting for middle class nationalism as for unionism. The GAA needs unionists to help it develop beyond the republican ghetto it finds itself in.
But they’ll have to begin by acknowledging the baggage that exists”
“There is a long way to go until such a possibility is obtainable in Ireland. Even it came about it would not stop (and rightfully so) the best players joining the English and Scottish leagues which of course are far wealthier and professional.”
Totally agreed with this, we live in a refreshingly unsentimental world. The league like any other would have to compete with others for players and spectators. I believe that such a league could become as strong if not stronger than the SPL. I have no doubt that the cream of the crop would still head for England as the PL there realistically would remain a much more powerful animal, but I think that standards would improve to the extent that even when shorn of the top players the league would still be much stronger than whats going on now.
“The days of any Irish side reaching the later stages of the Champions League are aeons away.”
Maybe so. Rangers and Celtic have both managed the second round in recent years and have not been disgraced. Obviously a run to the latter stages would be a phenomenal achievement, not to be expected every time but it would be nice to have even a slight chance of that (were Rangers once denied a place in the final on goal difference?). At any rate as interesting as it is to watch the British teams compete I would just like to see an Irish club there as well.
“Now if we take a look at what you say and then take a look at Donegal Celtic´s facilities I´m sure you will agree that there is a lot to be done in Northern Ireland concerning facilities and infrastructures.”
Yeah as I say I don’t think sectarianism is behind this. And I agree that infrastructure in NI needs continual investment as it does in the Republic.
Consul: Rangers were disgraced or did you not see the riots in Manchester? As regards Donegal Celtic, if Jews were not allowed enter a team in Hitler’s Germany, what have NI’s Catholics to mopery about?
It was also good news, NI’s Nazis will agree, that a Derry grammar school won’t allow GAA on its premises.
Dave O’Connell
I was discussing the team on the field rather than the ‘fans’ off it. Maybe I was not clear enough on this.
As regards DC I stated I did not believe the decision was not motivated by sectarianism because thats how I see it. I do remember hinting however it was a bit stupid: “but thats not to say that the IFA didn’t kick their own arse when they devised the criteria for invitation.”
“what have NI’s Catholics to mopery about?”
When did I accuse anyone of mopery? Seriously. I think you need to get a grip.
Promotion should always be on football matters as Spurs fans can tell you!
Btw is it Donegal Celtic with a “K” sound or an “S” sound?
Yes, Dewi, it is pronounced Ninteenth Century style.
“It was also good news, NI’s Nazis will agree, that a Derry grammar school won’t allow GAA on its premises”
Maybe it’s a Rule 44 kind of thing – you know, to protect the interests of the rugby and football teams at the school?
They maybe don’t want the rugger and footy boys deciding that they’d rather play GAA – I wonder where that idea could ever have come from?
I wonder did the GAA (Nazi’s Dave?) ever explicitly ban anybody particular groupings from their ranks?
Do I remember something about an Omagh Bomb charity match involving Manchester United not being allowed to be hosted on GAA grounds – by the GAA?
Sure, maybe the Principal of Limavady Grammar School will just send the GAA a wee donation in lieu of denying them entry…that’d be fair enough Dave eh?
kensei,
“I was unaware that precluded me form having an opinion, Realist”
Don’t be getting all prickly…I was genuinely curious as to whether or not you had ever attended a Donegal Celtic match at Suffolk Road.
Thanks for clarifying that you haven’t.
Of course, you are fully entitled to your opinion. That is never in question.
Sorry Yvonne – does that mean K or S? (A bit thick)
Is there another Orangefest planned for Windsor Park, this year ?
I don’t tknow if this has been picked up yet, but Willow, you don’t seem to have the foggiest what you are talking about.
Portadown got their domestic licence in on time. There is no dispute about that. However, they failed to apply for the new League before the deadline.
They are not being punished. They didn’t apply so their application can’t be considered.
DEWI
Willow – don’t understand this promotion business. Won’t they apply the same criteria then?
The understanding is that a domestic licence will be sufficient to gain promotion. Of course, clubs will have to meet off-the-field criteria to gain and maintain their licences.
Otherwise what’s the point?
There was no point in the over-elaborate system employed for next season – it should have been top 12 with domestic licences. See my first post on this thread.
BILLY PILGRIM
That would seem to be the logical situation. However, there’s always a wee nagging voice in the back of the collective nationalist psyche when it comes to local soccer. And it says that, even if the scenario I pained came about, and even if the new Belfast Celtic built a replica of the Nou Camp, packed it every week and signed Kaka, Messi, Ronaldinho and Drogba, the IFA would invent some new rule that would have the effect of keeping them out.
Well, that’s the MOPE mentality: you can never lose when sectarianism is to blame for everything.
Incidentally Willow, I’m always quick to criticise you, but you’ve made some very good posts here. Credit where it’s due.
Thank you.
DCFC
I don’t tknow if this has been picked up yet, but Willow, you don’t seem to have the foggiest what you are talking about.
On the contrary, I am well-informed and everything I have posted has been accurate.
Portadown got their domestic licence in on time.
I know. Did someone say otherwise?
There is no dispute about that.
Did someone say there was?
However, they failed to apply for the new League before the deadline.
Yes, we know that. It has been mentioned several times throughout the thread. Have you something to add to the discussion?
They are not being punished.
Exclusion from senior football after 84 years is not a punishment? I don’t think too many Portadown supporters would agree!
They didn’t apply so their application can’t be considered.
They did apply and participated in all the earlier rounds of applications for the new league. They handed in the final form late.
As in Julius *Caesar (Twenty and Twenty First Century style)
kde rather common desktop environment ;-0
Is there another Orangefest planned for Windsor Park, this year ?
I believe ‘de Gers’ will be playing ‘de Blues’ for some boys testimonial soon.
Andy “fenian bastards” Goram is due to play. Let’s hope he doesn’t come out wrapped in his uvf flag.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20050605/ai_n14655061
These are the sort of tourists Belfast doesn’t need at the moment
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7401188.stm
Realist,
GAA is all ireland,it requires nothing you imply,its not 50% of 6 counties,it 100% of 30 counties…btw croke park and GSTQ for the rugby game,that says all you need to know bout 21st Century GAA,they stepped up to the plate and the whole world saw it,850,000 unionists grumping don’t count.
All Unionists…your current narrative re civil rights is similiar to this affair…ie there wasn’t really a problem in 69 …us discriminate?,no way!…it only looks like that when you add up all the pieces….the taigs all got bunched together in the west derry cos they didn’t have jobs,not our fault,we didn’t do anything wrong…etc,etc,etc.
Lets looks at the reality…NI internationally has v little support from the mopes…’,the peicemeal reactons to problems are inter alia ‘its only a small minority cause trouble’,'I didn’t hear no surrender’,'GSTQ and the union flag is the national flag’,'Neil Lennon was a long time ago but he was a b’tard anyway’,'That night in novemeber wasn’t as bad as people made out’,'players from NI shouldn’t play for the republic,they don’t live there’…blah…blah…blah….how many nationalists in NI support NI,if its not 40%+,then you have it wrong…how many of the teams in the IL are based in nationalist areas and are supported by nationalists…if its not 40%+ then there is something wrong…if there is something wrong what is it …mopery?,fine,don’t bother making an effort, nationalist dont expect it (as per Limavady Grammar),but when you ply ‘Football for All’,shove it and just recognise you die by your own sword,and nationalists will snigger when they get the blame!…Portadown is a red herring in this debate…the IL/IFA have a grudge with both teams…a petty/parochial/small minded grudge for the Ports and DC…I know DC sued to get into the league…..now they are out exactly as per Derry…The IFA will be found out as clearly DC are shocked how the criteria went against them by over 300 pts…doubt the IL/IFA are though (as per Derry City)…DC should follow Derry and btw the DUP,….look south for a future!
By the way it would have been refreshing for one,just one unionist poster to say ;’this is a fcuk up’…but only two responses arrived…’assholes were incompetent and deserved it’ (loyalist reaction)…’ah thats a pity,good luck and hope to see you next season’ (middle class unionist snaky loyalist reaction)
Matt – try and like simplify will you – it’s blasted hard enough keeping up.
Realist
A N Other believes that the entry criteria should be along sectarian lines.
I despair at times.
A N Other didn’t argue that at all, Realist. He argued that West Belfast Catholics it was a huge untapped market. Commercial rather than religious.
Crudely made, but we both know he was driving at. Why misrepresent?
Don’t be getting all prickly…I was genuinely curious as to whether or not you had ever attended a Donegal Celtic match at Suffolk Road.
Thanks for clarifying that you haven’t.
Of course, you are fully entitled to your opinion. That is never in question.
No, that’s a flat lie. You wanted to do your usual of suggesting that somehow my opinion is lessor because I’ve never attended a game there.
Which is bollocks. This is, strictly, purely Ad Hominem by definition, and I’m thoroughly sick of your passive-aggressive bullshit. I do however take a passing interest in Irish League as my grandfather attended almost every Cliftonville game including Olympic matches before he dies, and my uncle is fanatical and I have plenty of friends hat go. Attended many matches at Solitude, though not for about ten years now. I also have natural empathy with FA fuck up being a Leeds fan. But none of that is the point. What I have or have not done is irrelevant to the points I have made. If you want to address them do so and not anything I have done. Sorry if that is “prickly” but I will remain so as and until you start playing the fucking ball.
Has anybody suggested the best 12 footballing sides should be in the top division of NI football? Our two neighbours used this system when reducing the size of their leagues. Now between them they had three of the four teams in major european finals this season. Sounds like they are not doing too bad. I know it is slugger but leave this arguement about sectarianism. It shows you what a joke the IFA are though. Devising a system where teams who are 5th and 11th no longer belong in the top division of 12 teams. What a really positive move for the quality of Irish league football.
Donegal celtic have bad facilities and I don’t know if they have too many followers. Even in the first semi final fixture, there were not too many supporters in Ballymena from what i saw and i was five minutes walk at the very most from the ground. Fair enough i saw a few in the slemish before hand watching the old firm game but not too many. Though I do not believe that is a reason to kick a team out of a top division of twelve teams when they clearly showed they are in the top 12 teams in NI by playing football. Call me ignorant but I think the top twelve teams should be in the top division.
To those who reserve their criticism for the GAA. What have they got to do with this? It is the most successful sporting organisation in ireland. They only reorganise to suit munster and leinster hurling but that is from a bitter saffron and am sure is for a GAA forum instead. And the damned tommy murphy cup for division 4 teams. Bitter saffron again, I know.
Kensei, you mention Leeds. Get’s me thinking about another point. If the premiership had been formed using the IFA’s system of picking teams, Leeds would have been in it certainly and rightly so as the last division one champions thanks to that great frenchman. Leed’s are one of the only founding premier league teams to face serious financial worries and now look at them. What my point is is that the IFA sysytem is not going to safeguard the interests of football which should be decided on a field and always should be. Future development should not decide who gets in a league. Has every youth been rated for skill or are we just assuming because of a few coaches, who will come and go, how a football team should be rated. Villa to the champions league if that is the case. They have the finances too. Thank good it does not work like that though and places and competitions are decided by how football is played and how many points a team gets.
‘ This is, strictly, purely Ad Hominem by definition, and I’m thoroughly sick of your passive-aggressive bullshit,Realist.’
Well sussed and well said, Kensei.
MATT
…btw croke park and GSTQ for the rugby game,that says all you need to know bout 21st Century GAA,
What does it say about them? That they leased their ground out – at great profit – to another sport? That would be completely unremarkable with any other sport in Ireland or anywhere else. The fact that what should have been quite an ordinary thing turned out to be so controversial, and that you feel the need to crow about it, says more about the GAA than anything else – 21st century and still stuck in the 19th.
PFHL
Has anybody suggested the best 12 footballing sides should be in the top division of NI football?
Yes, I have.
kensei,
“No, that’s a flat lie. You wanted to do your usual of suggesting that somehow my opinion is lessor because I’ve never attended a game there”
It is quite legitimate to establish if you have experienced the facilities and have knowledge of the setup at Donegal Celtic, given the context of the current debate….and therefore engage in discussion with you, based on your response.
Those who have such experiences and knowledge are, without question, in a better position to discuss the real substance of this debate – ie. Donegal Celtic failing to make the cut for the Invitational League, based on the scoring matrix system played before them.
Of course, you are always entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is not backed up by any experience of what it is like at Donegal Celtic’s ground – the infrastructure/facilities at Donegal Celtic comprising an important part of the scoring matrix.
That’s nothing personal kensei, just a simple truth.
“What I have or have not done is irrelevant to the points I have made. If you want to address them do so and not anything I have done”
I will address points that you make, that are relevant to the discussion.
I will do this in the knowledge that you take a “passing interest” in the Irish League,that you haven’t been to an Irish League game “for about ten years now”, and having never attended a game at Suffolk Road.
pfhl,
“What my point is is that the IFA sysytem is not going to safeguard the interests of football which should be decided on a field and always should be”
In order to play in the Invitational League, one of the requirements is that you have a Domestic Licence. Donegal Celtic, as you will know, have a Domestic Licence.
That “system” (which includes numerous off field criteria) is not an IFA “system”. It is a UEFA “system”, used across Europe.
On the issue of the scoring matrix for entry into the Invitational League, Donegal Celtic FC accepted that “system”, and proceeded in full knowledge of that “system”, without complaint.
They were fuklly aware that off field factors were important in the overall scoring system – we can argue retrospectively about those various weightings, but the thing is, they were accepted by all in the race.
Strangely, the problem has only arisen after DC finished 13th in a 12 club race – all clubs racing by the same “system”.
[i]“no matter what they do, no matter how successfully they negotiate the obstacles placed in their way, nationalists will never be given an even break by unionists.”
Posted by Billy Pilgrim on May 14, 2008 @ 06:42 PM [/i]
Or to rephrase that entirely:
“No matter what decisions are made in Northern Ireland, no matter how fairly they are made, no matter what factors are taken into account, if the by product is seen to be disadvantageous to something remotely nationalist then the wolves can howl about how the orangies are keeping the croppies down”…….
It is quite legitimate to establish if you have experienced the facilities and have knowledge of the setup at Donegal Celtic, given the context of the current debate….and therefore engage in discussion with you, based on your response.
No, it isn’t because it has nothing to do with what I am saying. The points I made were:
1. Football should be the ultimate arbiter of who and who does not play in a given league. Even where a ground becomes unsafe a club should have the right to find alternative arrangements such as ground share, to continue what they won on field.
2. In any event, it is unreasonable to relegate DC for problems with the ground when there is money in the pot that has been held up by the actions of the FA
3. The IFA’s criteria were clearly screwed up also if they could no account for that money coming in, and subsequent improvements made. Oh and move a club, from third in the first division, no matter how well run.
I could also add
4. I don’t think this is a sectarian decision but given the history of the IFA, particularly with this club, a blind man could see how this would look. There was a way of handling this, acknowledging that head on and treating it with sensitivity. The IFA, and certainly the Unionist posters here, appear to be tone deaf to it.
Those who have such experiences and knowledge are, without question, in a better position to discuss the real substance of this debate – ie. Donegal Celtic failing to make the cut for the Invitational League, based on the scoring matrix system played before them.
That might be a fair point if what I was arguing was that “DC’s ground is actually really good”.
Check that list above, Realist because I’m pretty sure I didn’t put it there.
That’s nothing personal kensei, just a simple truth.
No Realist, it’s a logical fallacy called a Straw Man. Keep going, I’m hoping you can slip another one in your next post and hit a hat trick.
I will address points that you make, that are relevant to the discussion.
Be helpful if you could start.
I will do this in the knowledge that you take a “passing interest” in the Irish League,that you haven’t been to an Irish League game “for about ten years now”, and having never attended a game at Suffolk Road.
I don’t really care what knowledge you bear in mind when addressing any argument I make, as long as you keep it in your brain and stick to ball and not the man. As you like rules so much, if you check the links to the side you’ll find those are the rules here.
The thoughts of a true Donegal Celtic supporter on an Irish League fans forum:
“Want to start off saying im absolutely gutted at the decision, although I was never really that hopeful of making the league when i seen portadown went out I started to think it might be possible.
What a complete dissapointment to witness the fantastic transformation on the pitch after christmas only to end up relegated. Very few teams dropped as little points as we did in the second half of the season and the team and management should be extremely proud of their achievements.
Its a shame the criteria didnt reward only performance, its certainly would have made for a more entertaining league short term but this new set up is designed to succeed in the long term. Moan away about how bad Bangor are off the pitch but they are in that league because based on the criteria they are in a better position to develop and grow and help take it forward. That may prove to be wrong but it doesnt matter, everyone was in the same boat. It will take a lot of investment on the pitch but hopefully it rejuvenates interest in Bangor, they are a great club with a proud history and a setup with a lot of potential.
I remember seeing the first rankings and the extra points we got on appeal and couldnt believe how high we had placed. It was very surprising to see we had dropped so many after it was redone but people really need to stop whining about that now as the process was the same for everyone, if we’ve been short changed im sure any extra points will be added on appeal like the last time but im not getting my hopes up.
All the clubs knew exactly how they would be marked and chose their strategy from there, the fact the criteria was changed half way through wouldnt have helped but again it was exactly the same for everyone. Did the club take account of the restructured criteria or assume they would score more or less what they did the last time?
It seems to me that DC are in the same situation as Portadown for the exact same reason…working under the assumption that the door was wide open.
It would be intesting to see exactly what was done between the beginning of the process and our eventual relegation to see exactly how the club went about maximising points but thats highly unlikely. I see a lot of people complaining about a 30 point cap on youth teams, were they not aware of this already??
DC didnt invest on the pitch like some are saying, the squads wages are not going to build 600 seats and the core of the team is more or less the same as it was in the first division so I can only assume the investment was off the pitch in some area ive never seen before. Its true that we might have made it should the cash have been released for development but the blame for that lies with the clubs who voted against it first time around…
The conspiracy ‘nuts’ need to take off the tinfoil hats and get themselves a spell check addon for their browser because they are making us look like a bunch of dicks. Also forget this LOI bull****, why would they want us? What could we possibly contribute? How is our situation in anyway comparable to that of Derry City? If we werent good enough for the Irish league how could we possibly be good enough for one of a higher standard?
If this is the end of the club then its only because those involved are giving up. If Bonner doesnt think we can recover then kindly step aside and let someone with actual ambition and drive step up rather than someone who only talks a good football club.
Our progress since entering the irish league was too rapid and its finally caught up with us. If this cash is earmarked then work can start on a new stadium and be complete for the season after. Portadown are likely to get taken by the big clubs for their best players but i cant see most of ours having a problem with playing in the first division as the most have been there before. We will lose some strength no doubt but not as much as portadown. The gulf between us wont be as big as it is now and we will have every chance of gaining promotion next year. The 10 year plan to win the champions league is out the window, lets start a new one, invest and prepare for our re entry into the top flight and give the Irish League the DC we promised them”
An opinion, I concur with and totally respect.
kensei,
“Football should be the ultimate arbiter of who and who does not play in a given league. Even where a ground becomes unsafe a club should have the right to find alternative arrangements such as ground share, to continue what they won on field”
That’s all fine and dandy – all clubs knew the scoring matrix, and entered the process on that basis.
The criteria/scoring matrix cannot/will not be changed retrospectively to suit a club who doesn’t like the result.
“In any event, it is unreasonable to relegate DC for problems with the ground when there is money in the pot that has been held up by the actions of the FA”
Other clubs, including Bangor FC and Institute FC, were similarly affected. They got on with it.
“The IFA’s criteria were clearly screwed up also if they could no account for that money coming in, and subsequent improvements made. Oh and move a club, from third in the first division, no matter how well run”
The “screwed up” criteria (scoring matrix) was accepted by the Clubs, including Donegal Celtic -no complaints, until the result was known.
“I don’t think this is a sectarian decision but given the history of the IFA, particularly with this club, a blind man could see how this would look. There was a way of handling this, acknowledging that head on and treating it with sensitivity. The IFA, and certainly the Unionist posters here, appear to be tone deaf to it”
If you are suggesting that the same criteria that applied to all other clubs should not be applicable (retrospectively) to Donegal Celtic FC, in order to facilitate them into the Invitational League, there’s not a chance in hell of that happening.
“I don’t think this is a sectarian decision”
Clearly, it isn’t.
The top 12 scores, as accumulated against an agreed scoring matrix, of clubs who applied for entry, have been invited into the new league.
Simple as that.
You will note that Donegal Celtic’s score was short of the 12th placed Club by a not inconsiderable margin.
Had Portadown FC’s application been considered ( a much more controversial issue), Donegal Celtic FC would have been 14th in the race.
[i]Thing is, apparently the FAI didn’t fuck it up.
Posted by kensei on May 15, 2008 @ 12:13 PM[/i]
The FAI did nearly the same thing as the IFA have done regarding the Eircom set up is concerned.
Dundalk are a club in point who on-the-pitch should have been in the Premier but the criteria for the new FAI league meant they didn’t get in.
A good point has been raised regarding the rapid rise of a lot of teams in the IL.
About 8 years ago the IL started a major expansion….. prior to this P&R;happened between the 16 teams who made up the old Irish League in the early 90′s and before.
At that time the IFA did make one major hash, it didn’t set the criteria high enough to make sure that teams getting a possibility of playing in the top league were able to cope and could add something to the league. So clubs like Limavady, Armagh, Institute, Loughgall and Donegal Celtic managed to find their way into the top league when their grounds/facilities etc were not up to it. You speak to any IL fan and you will get the same comments about the grounds of these teams. It was even worse when they had to host the big two as the grounds couldn’t cope at all with a medium sized crowd. All these new teams were able to do was put a team on the pitch and produce results just good enough to keep them in the league.
All the IFA have done with this domestic licensing process and the invitational league rankings is to try and repair some of that damage.
There are teams now in the lower reaches of the league pyramid who have grounds that are a hell of a lot better than Armagh, Limavady and DC.
Football in this country is dying and this league is an attempt to get things going again. People being encouraged to go to matches in half decent surroundings, with a half decent atmosphere… clubs being able to get a half decent gate and enable development of their clubs and the league as a whole.
Getting the teams in with the best facilities and the most fans is a way of kickstarting things again.
Realist,
Thank you for only quoting part of my post, taking the ample opportunity to twist my words.
I SUGGEST YOU RE-READ IT AGAIN.
Typical man, not ball stuff. Completely ignore the valid comparison cf Munster rugby, just so you can engage in some petty, sectarian point-scoring.
You fucking cretin.
Darth,
“Some areas just haven’t the enthusiasm for football- Omagh is GAA mad, as is Newry.”
Indeed. Cork, which is the only county in Ireland that has, over the years, consistently put decent teams in both GAA codes is broadly split East/West in its affinity to each. The SW of England is (outside Bristol) by and large a soccer wasteland. It has different traditions, and would be more inclined towards rugby. In Northern Ireland it is possible to add a sectarian gloss, if you wish, but the differential pattern is not unusual.
I suspect soccer fans in West Belfast have gone the way of soccer fans the world over: they’ve quietly dropped their local affiliations and prefer to watch the big English or Scottish teams. Just take the boat out of Belfast (or Dun Laoghaire for that matter) on a Friday evening or Saturday morning.
Improving the product has got to be a number one priority if the local game is going to compete. In this, as I think that DC fan Realist quotes has said, the new regulations simply put it up to the clubs to get better, not simply on the pitch, but off it as well.
Other clubs, including Bangor FC and Institute FC, were similarly affected. They got on with it.
That is irrelevant, frankly. Sources of funding for Irish League clubs are precarious at best and if the money still remains in place and was not delivered on time due to IFA incompetence they must take some culpability. The question is not whether DC should just have made do, but if the money was there would they have likely met standard.
The “screwed up” criteria (scoring matrix) was accepted by the Clubs, including Donegal Celtic -no complaints, until the result was known.
From the coverage it seems clear that DC were broadsided by this. Out of interest, did the IFA provide any consultative services through the year to recommend to clubs how to get through the process? Or indeed provide an intermediate score in order to give teams a wake up call?
If you are suggesting that the same criteria that applied to all other clubs should not be applicable (retrospectively) to Donegal Celtic FC, in order to facilitate them into the Invitational League, there’s not a chance in hell of that happening.
No Realist, I’m suggesting that the IFA could have foresaw the reaction to this. In their press release for the information they could have had something like “Aware the difficulties with DC in the past, however this is strictly based on the criteria and changing them at this point would lead to legal action by other clubs, the IFA remains committed to an equality agenda and will work with DC to help them meet standard for future and are sure they will bounce back.”. Excetera. You know, PR. Instead they ignored it, and any Unionist response here has seemingly been “Tough”. There is a lack of empathy and an emotional deafness. Any damage the IFA incurs over this will be largely down to that.
By the by, I do think there is some merit in A N Others argument. If the Irish League could crack West Belfast there’d be another big club and a big boon to the league. While I don’t think “Catholic club” is a good reason, potential cachement should have had some weight thrown in the criteria.
Realist, I’d like to buy that guy a pint. Very refreshing in light of this thread, but more or less what I expected from a real DC fan who is a bit more informed on the process having followed it through its course.
A N Other. The apology’s (sorry it’s taken me so long to acknowledge it, I completely gave up on this thread as it seems to be repeating the same “arguments” over and over). While I understand that this topic stokes the passions somewhat “You fucking cretin.” is disappointing by any standards.
Mick
I suspect soccer fans in West Belfast have gone the way of soccer fans the world over: they’ve quietly dropped their local affiliations and prefer to watch the big English or Scottish teams. Just take the boat out of Belfast (or Dun Laoghaire for that matter) on a Friday evening or Saturday morning.
You are right on improving product (the LoI has demonstrated effectively it’s possible and improves attendance) but…
We’re talking Irish League level support here, not filling Old Trafford. Do you reckon the situation in West Belfast might have anything to do with the highly successful West Belfast club being forced out in the 40′s, and the potential replacement being denied access to the league until a law suit forced them in?
Do you think this is any less true of North Belfast, which manages to support Cliftonville (and Crusaders, for that matter)? Or indeed South Belfast or East Belfast.
Could also add: Wigan is hardly known for football but still finished 14th in the Prem and pulled 20,000 gates, in an area where it’s much easier for people to take other options.
Beano,
Apology receipt noted.
As for my latest verbal misdemeanour, I simply managed to lose my cool…again!
However, if you read my original post, and then Realist’s reply to it, I hope you can see where I’m coming from.
I was actually fuming with him…
However, as internet blogs go – the opportunity to have your comments twisted & distorted to suit the agenda of other posters is always there!
Regards,
ANO
We’re talking Irish League level support here, not filling Old Trafford. Do you reckon the situation in West Belfast might have anything to do with the highly successful West Belfast club being forced out in the 40’s, and the potential replacement being denied access to the league until a law suit forced them in?
They weren’t forced out, they left as they did on previous ocassions.
It all seems to be one sided and Celtic are painted whiter than white, the word secterian seems to only point in one direction, so read this;
http://www.rsssf.com/tablesn/nilcuphist.html
[*2] Shelbourne had beaten Glenavon in one semifinal; the other,
between Glentoran and Belfast Celtic, went to a replay which
was abandoned after 70 minutes (at 0-0) following serious crowd
disturbances (Celtic fans shooting into those of Glentoran,
injuring some); Celtic were disqualified but so were Glentoran
after Celtic protested against their player H.McIlveen, who had
not appeared on the players’ list submitted to the referee;
Shelbourne thereby gained a walkover in the final
NOT MUCH DRAGGED UP ABOUT THESE ACTIVITIES BUT THIS COULDN@T BE SEEN AS SECTERIAN, COULD IT?
We’re talking Irish League level support here, not filling Old Trafford. Do you reckon the situation in West Belfast might have anything to do with the highly successful West Belfast club being forced out in the 40’s, and the potential replacement being denied access to the league until a law suit forced them in?
1. Point of information: Belfast Celtic was not “forced out” of the Irish League – the club chose to resign – a decision that shocked the league and football generally and which is still shrouded in mystery.
2. Yes, the loss of Belfast Celtic has definitely resulted in a massive loss of interest in IL football in west Belfast.
3. GAA is probably also another factor in diminishing interest in west Belfast, which is not as prevalent in other parts of the city or NI.
This has been a very interesting read so far. A couple of points:
I live quite close to DC’s ground, and although a few friends and I have talked about going to a match, we have never done so. The only reason we considered it was because they are the local team, and we here in the West have always been encouraged to support local endeavours, events, etc. As I am sure is true of all areas of the north.
I would be one of those Mick talked about, who (many years ago) turned to the English First, and then Premier League. This was simply because the standard was much higher.
I used to have an affinity for Cliftonville, but I realised when I was much younger that I was only showing token support for a ‘catholic’ team, not a football team, much the same as many Celtic and Rangers supporters here.
None of this is aimed at the true supporters out there, who follow the shirt and not the religious/sectarian ideology behind it.
I think I understand the frustration felt by genuine DC supporters at this decision. It must be an awful thing to watch your team play so well and not only achieve nothing (apart from 11th place – fantastic result, and a semi final place – even better for such a small club) but also be relegated! My own favourites in the PL, who played some of the most attractive football all season, finished their season in 3rd and trophyless – very dissapointing.
The points system, as willowfield pointed out, seems to be completely ridiculous. However, as has been pointed out, DC agreed to abide by it, as did Portadown, and now both must accept it. It’s a pity, but there it is. Of the two, I would hazard a guess that Portadown will be affected more by this decision.
Some very good points have been made over the past day or two, also some very bad points. Whether or not the IFA made this decision in a purely sectarian fashion is impossible to prove, as they appear to have stuck to their own rules, agreed by the clubs, from the start. It always dismays me that everything in this part of the country can be narrowed down to themmuns and ussuns.
Just to finish, I have had a couple of very frustrating discussions with willowfield on here in the past, but as somebody else pointed out earlier – credit where credit is due. You make your points very well. Cheers.
willow
1. Point of information: Belfast Celtic was not “forced out” of the Irish League – the club chose to resign – a decision that shocked the league and football generally and which is still shrouded in mystery.
Yes. It was divorced from all that went before.
3. GAA is probably also another factor in diminishing interest in west Belfast, which is not as prevalent in other parts of the city or NI.
You think North Belfast Catholics are uninterested in the GAA?