“if the Maze was not to go ahead..”
The Culture, Arts and Leisure Minister, the DUP’s Edwin Poots, has already speculated about what he could do with the £70million earmarked for any development at the Maze stadium site this year – and Sinn Féin’s Paul Butler responded here. Now the Finance Minister, the DUP’s Peter Robinson, has confirmed that he will bring his decision on the business case to the Executive within three weeks. Presumably before moving into another office in the Executive. Adds More quotes here. From the BBC report.
[Peter Robinson] also said that if the Maze stadium was not given the go-ahead, stadia across NI would be improved. “I don’t think it is sufficient to say that if the Maze was not to proceed that we would walk away and do nothing with it,” he said. “No more is it sensible to say that if the Maze was not to go ahead that we would do nothing with football, rugby and GAA facilities elsewhere.”
Yeah, a Belfast Robbo Towers!
Willowfield,
I don’t believe that money for the Maze or whatever replaces it has yet been allocated.
If you check the DCAL budget you’ll see that the budget allocation for sports infrastructure is as follows:
2008 – 8.2 million
2009 – 31.2
2010 – 36.4
2011 – 44
I assume the 70 million of which Poots speaks is in here. It would certainly explain the sudden 400% increase in spending.
Also, why would Mr Poots be talking about re-allocting money if it isn’t already in his department and therefore included in the DCAL budget?
If you check Sport NI you will see that it has already provisionally allocated 53 million to Olympic and Paralympic projects.
I’m open to correction on this if anybody can provide evidence to the contrary.
Jo,
in the Guardian:
“Robinson is understood to be planning to offer the site as the new home of the Royal Ulster Agricultural Society’s annual show.”
George
I think thats a very good location.
Despite my earlier comments I would like the Rugby peeps, the GAA and the soccer fraternity to have stadia that suits their purpose. I will never be at any of them. In an ideal world, a bigger Windsor Park, on the frontier between Prod and Taig Belfast, would be a place where both GAA and soccer would be played.
What else could Maze be used for?
The CTC Sinn Fein are after.
The various sports then get their own nice bonus, Windsor gets a polish, the GAA and Ulster Rugby get their own bung…everyone’s a winner, except Poots and Donaldson who’ll have a bit of explaining to do to their constituents once those SF tour buses start running up to the Maze Museum.
Reality check people.
320 acres of land with protected sites contained within. Proposal to use the land that was viewed as a crucible of the conflict to build an agreed shared space for use by all shades and creeds. The new stadium to show the world that we can move out of conflict and share a joint future, with all the major sporting traditions of this island catered for. Within the site a conflict transformation centre which would be an invaluable educational tool to prevent any recurrance of the strife that engulfed us for the past 40 years. This site would show the world that we are prepared to put the old ways behind us and move on into a shared future and help other conflicted regions to solve disputes.
Who came up with this dream scenario?
Did they take into consideration the siege mentality of unionists? The intransigence shown by many within the unionist population, especially their leadership, will be their undoing. There still exists an opportunity to undertake a flagship project to help define our shared future, this is about to be removed because the unionists are afraid of ghosts.
The same tired arguments about Windsor or a mythical stadium in the east are just time consuming and tinged with a desire to return to unionist hegemony.
Realist
Discussion is a lot easier when perfectly intelligent people don’t play fuckwit.
Where in Belfast will the stadium be, Realist?
More to the point: who is paying for it?
Calm down Ard Eoin, the CTC will most likely be built anyway – wait and see.
Your post illustrates the underlying problem of the Maze project however – tying the needs of sports in with political ideals. You can’t force sporting organisations into something that holds no benefit for them, just for the feelgood factor.
Ard Eoin
Perhaps if the NIO, Poots, SF, Howard Wells and their various lickspittles in the local press had been more honest from the very beginning about this project your dream may have come true.
But:
Why do you think relevant information has had to be dragged out of the NIO under the FOI act?
Why do you think Wells, in particular, has told lies about what or what cannot be done with Windsor in its present form?
Why do you think eg the Belfast Telegraph has refused to cover the detailed analysis from the AONISC on the project?
Why do you think we won’t be seeing hundreds of private investors crying into their G and Ts when Robinson finally puts the White Elephant Stadium to rest?
It’s because in a sporting and economic sense the Maze never made sense…got that?
Kensie,
The combined coffers of NI’s fanbase along with the massed ranks of the Irish League crowds could easily pay for a cracking 25,000 all-seater stadium- you can get them off the shelf at Toys’R'us in the Subutteo section.
In the event of the plug getting pulled on the Maze, how in God’s name could the money ever be split fairly, without further bitterness and acrimony.
Look at the attendances committed to the Maze by the three sports bodies.
The GAA committed 150k bums on sets pa, the IFA 80k pa, and the IRFU 40k pa.
Its acknowledged that the GAA require a 40k + capacity, while soccer and rugby would settle for 25k.
To me, that looks like a firm starting point in working out the needs of each sport.
The only problem here is that the cost of a 40k capacity stadium stadium for the GAA would surely gobble up nearly all of the money that would have gone to built the Maze in the first place.
Upgrading Windsor is a no-no because it allegedly can’t get to a 25k capacity.
Similarly, Casement hasn’t got any room to be developed to the 40k the GAA require.
You surely can’t get a new 25k soccer/rugby stadium, AND a 40k GAA stadium out of the original budget.
So what to do?
Well, splitting the money three ways may give the IFA and the IRFU enough to build, say a joint 25k stadium.
But it would clearly discriminate against the GAA.
The GAA’s need for a higher capacity stadium may be less urgent than the IFA’s, but is real nonetheless.
Casement has only 2500 seats. The remaining 30k capacity is on uncovered terraces. And it has no room to be upgraded.
A third of the overall funding would be nowhere near enough for the GAA to build a stadium that meets their 40k requirement, especially a high quality one built to the same all seated, all covered standard of rugby/soccer’s theoretical new stadium.
So even though we have an EQUAL split financially, the outcome is far from EQUITABLE, in that the majority of GAA fans will still have to endure the elements while their soccer and rugby supporting brethren are sitting pretty in a publicly funded stadium.
Given that GAA fans constitute the majority of sports fans who would use a NI stadium in any one year (see original Maze commitment figures), their treatment in an equal three way carve up would surely be seen as discriminatory, and must be deemed politically unacceptable – well by the British Govt, if not the DUP.
The alternative is to allocate according to need, as per Maze committed attendance figures and desired capacity.
As already stated, you surely can’t get a new 25k soccer/rugby stadium, AND a 40k GAA stadium out of the original budget.
So the only alternative is to give all sports the same percentage of their likely stadium spend, ie
If the GAA reckon it will cost 40Million for a 40k stadium, they get 50% of that figure.
Similarly soccer/rugby would get 50% of their, say 25 Million cost.
The likely problem here though is that Unionists will not be able to stomach the GAA getting the lions share of the funding.
Maybe the parallel is that Unionists haven’t yet accepted that the GAA is the largest spectator sport out of the three.
Regardless of the reasoning, I just can’t see Robinson going down this route.
Which leads me to believe that the Maze proposal, as unpopular as it was, might still be the only fair way to distribute the funding in any sort of fair way without bitterness or accusations of discrimination.
Not all of any stadium funding (for whatever sport) has to be public money for starters.
DM – “Not all of any stadium funding (for whatever sport) has to be public money for starters. ”
Certainly not, but additional funding doesn’t address the key issue of how to share out the funding in any sort of equitable way without increasing sectarian tensions.
I think the question of how address the GAA’s needs is an extremely sensitive and symbolic issue.
If the GAA base is discriminated against, or is perceived to have been discriminated against, nationalists will be questioning if they can ever really be treated equitably within NI.
The flip side is the difficulties of loyalists in accepting that the GAA is entitled to get more than both rugby and soccer’s individual allocations.
Especially when its support base is drawn almost exclusively from only one community.
Well this is where Robbo comes in – we shall see what money is available and how it gets divided. Assuming of course we aren’t all sharing a stadium somewhere else.
“Well this is where Robbo comes in – we shall see what money is available and how it gets divided. Assuming of course we aren’t all sharing a stadium somewhere else.”
But is it solely his decision to make?
Do the shinners not have a veto?
It’s not his decision to make but it’s him making the proposals. I think the question is how important is the CTC to SF, and is it their sole interest in the matter, or are they genuinely concerned for sporting provisions in NI?
To put rugby’s case for a new stadium, the redevelopment at Ravenhill will replace terrace space with corporate boxes and will REDUCE the ground’s capacity down to 11,500. Overall revenue will increase because of the higher value of the corporate seats. Rugby is a professional sport and money matters, but the sport won’t be able to grow if the development at Ravenhill is reducing the capacity and making it, in effect, more exclusive.
The Ulster CEO has said on a number of occasions that expansion at Ravenhill would not be permitted because of planning issues, and UR can’t sell the ground for development, because of zoning.
Ulster used to be the best supported team in the Magners League but were overtaken by Leinster last season. Since their move to the RDS, Leinster has grown their average gate from 5,800 two seasons ago to over 14,000 this season. Standing on the terrace in the rain may appeal to die hard fans, but Leinster has demonstrated that you need comfortable seats to attract new fans.
Leinster has already overtaken Ulster with new facilities. Ulster’s Magners League rivals seem poised to do the same.
The Ospreys already have the new 20k Liberty Stadium.
[url=http://www.munsterrugby.ie/19_3580.php]Munster[/url] will be completing a new 26k stadium that will host the All Blacks later this year.
[url=http://www.cardiffblues.com/33_3027.php]Cardiff Blues[/url] are moving to a new 25k stadium at Leckwith.
[url=http://www.scarlets.co.uk/stadium/]Llanelli Scarlets[/url] are building a new 15k stadium.
[url=http://www.newportgwentdragons.com/NewsArticle.aspx?n=36922dae-f82a-42fa-bdae-8fbbbf1d2cb8]Newport/Gwent Dragons[/url] are building a new 15k stadium.
That is just the Magners League – many Guinness Premiership clubs and French Top 14 teams have similarly ambitious plans.
So Ulster’s Magners League rivals are building stadia ranging from 15k to 26k… while Ulster is reducing their ground’s capacity to 11.5k.
As I’ve said before, rugby is a professional sport and attendances matter to generate the money to pay players’ wages – both retaining local talent as well as attracting stars from the southern hemisphere.
I believe that Ulster does have the potential to grow significantly crowds given the population of the greater Belfast area, the comparative lack of sectarian baggage with the sport and regular fixtures against top class European and Irish rivals.
However there is no future for Ulster Rugby staying at Ravenhill… just a slow decline as the spending power of more ambitious rivals with better facilities gradually asserts itself.
“However there is no future for Ulster Rugby staying at Ravenhill… just a slow decline as the spending power of more ambitious rivals with better facilities gradually asserts itself.”
Michael,
whats the general IRFU preference – the 35k seater Maze shared with all three sports, or a smaller 25k seater shared in Belfast shared with soccer only?
Is there any sense of reluctance about the latter option if accusations about the GAA getting frozen out start to get bandied about?
within the IRFU, is there any sense of the political sensitivities of the various options in any post Maze world?
As a Catholic (for the want of a better label) and a GAA member, I’ve been following Ulster for the past six or seven years and have been to Ravenhill quite a few times. But it seems that for the likes of me, from a distance, when it comes to the big games, Ulster Rugby is a closed shop. Granted there ain’t that many tickets to go around but rugby, in a bigger ground, has the possibility of attracting big support from both sides of the community.
Paul,
Is there any sense of reluctance about the latter option if accusations about the GAA getting frozen out start to get bandied about?
within the IRFU, is there any sense of the political sensitivities of the various options in any post Maze world?
They are currently making all their money out of holding games at Croke Park and the Irish government is stumping up 191 million for the new Lansdowne Road so I reckon they’ll be very careful of following whatever line that takes this into account.
That said, this is an organisation that will cut its tickets to rugby fans to get more corporate sales (it’s not just Ulster Rugby) so who knows who they’d get into bed with for a buck.
But shafting the GAA and the Irish Government is hardly the wisest move for the IRFU.
“It’s not his decision to make but it’s him making the proposals. I think the question is how important is the CTC to SF, and is it their sole interest in the matter, or are they genuinely concerned for sporting provisions in NI? ”
DM,
my guess is that the Shinners prime concern is the CTC.
That being said, I can’t see them acquiescing in any carve up of funds on anything other than need, ie the GAA get the lion’s share.
On that basis, I think its safe to say there will be no cross-community agreement on this one.
Its possible that we might have to wait for a regime change to the UUP to get any movement on this one.
Disregarding McNally’s campaign to exclude the GAA from any new stadium, its clear that the UUP policy is much warmer towards the Maze.
Reg Empey sees the concept as workable, and lauds the UUP’s role in getting the Maze site off the Govt for free.
whats the general IRFU preference – the 35k seater Maze shared with all three sports, or a smaller 25k seater shared in Belfast shared with soccer only?
Mike Reid, the Ulster CEO said this in the Ulster Rugby Supporters Club newsletter in February 2008:
Q:Is a stadium in Belfast likely?
Mike Reid: Belfast City & Drivers Jonas are now putting together a business plan. We have been asking for one for the last two and a half years and there have been lots of pretty pictures they’ve put in the papers but nothing of substance. For the first time we’ve met with a company who seem to be full-on focused on producing a business plan and we await that to see what it produces.
Q: Is that putting you in a difficult position to consider it? If something better came up in Belfast are you already committed to the Maze?
Mike Reid: We are committed to the Maze, because it is the only thing that’s there. The difficulty here for all of us is we are in a country where we had politicians who when they were effectively in opposition, threw stones. Now they are in power, they have to show some leadership here, and I believe it is unfair on Sport to be put in a position where we have to decide. There is one option for us, which is the Maze. We had to fight for two years to get planning permission [at Ravenhill]. There was no political support whatsoever in that period of time, so if rugby grows, there is no future [at Ravenhill], unfortunately. We have to look at what is there and the Maze is the only thing there now, but in six months time if there’s something different there, even if we went to the Maze for our three big games a year, if someone built a 15000 capacity stadium in Belfast for rugby and soccer to play at, I’d play at it.
Michael/ Anybody Else,
I’ve never heard of this Belfast City & Drivers Jonas proposal. Have you any more info on this?
For starters, have these Belfast City & Drivers Jonas proposers engaged with /canvassed the GAA?
On what basis will they determine optimal capacity, ie with GAA, or without it?
If the GAA have been excluded, who made the decision to exclude them Belfast City Council, or Drivers Jonas?
Will alternative schemes be produced, one with the GAA onboard, and one for only soccer and rugby?
Has anyone addressed political/legal concerns re excluding the GAA?
I’d be quite interested in having a look around the H blocks anyway.
Is it possible to visit at the moment?
Off topic but why not debate with my fellow Ulster Gael’s.
Does anyone know the real story with Ciaran McDonald? After reading different local rags one gets the impression that he is out of the panel full stop. Then the Mayo Advertiser stated yesterday that the door is still open for him on the panel.
So what is to be believed?
Personal opinion he is a class act and could even be considered as an impact sub !
On that note when the 30 strong panel is named is it final ?
As the championship progresses can the panel be changed ?
Do you think that Mayo’s best this year will be a Connacht tile or can we hope for a second and third visit to Croker ?
Paul,
Drivers Jonas say a 30,000-seater Belfast stadium could be developed for £65 to £70 million.
They identified three viable locations which wouldn’t have infrastructure issues:
Ormeau Park, Maysfield, the Danny Blanchflower/Tommy Patton parks.
kensei,
“Discussion is a lot easier when perfectly intelligent people don’t play fuckwit”
I’m certainly not playing “fuckwit”.
If you wish to take issue with what I say, that’s fine by me.
Paul,
“Upgrading Windsor is a no-no because it allegedly can’t get to a 25k capacity”
Don’t know where you got this from, but there would be no practical barriers to Windsor Park being re-developed into a 25,000 seater stadium.
When the Maze is scrapped, let’s hope the IFA, IRFU (Ulster Branch) and Ulster GAA are each required to demonstrate their success in attracting players and fans from all sections of the NI community before a single penny is allocated towards their existing stadia.
I’ve never heard of this Belfast City & Drivers Jonas proposal. Have you any more info on this?
Sorry, I don’t know any more than has been publically reported. [url=http://www.driversjonas.com/sector.aspx?doc=18371§or=18092]Drivers Jonas[/url] is a well established firm of property consultants with a track record assisting the development of sports stadia.
Belfast City Council has engaged them to prepare a more detailed plan for a new stadium, but I don’t know the scope of their brief.
Oh my God there is hope for us all yet. It looks like common sense to not develop this huge white elephant that isnt needed, is in the wrong place and will bankrupt sports funding in the future.
I’m not a total fan of the new First Minister but he does seem to be taking some very sensible decisions ….. financially and politically.
Sensible Stormont? I must go and take a lie down.
Btw, redevelop Windsor? Why dont they rebuild it on a brownfield site in say East or North Belfast (closer to the fan base anyway) and sell off all that very valuable site for development?
“it has been remarkable how over the course of the last year, all the optimism and goodwill from the public and international community towards NI finally moving forward and genuinely trying to put the crap of the past behind us – has evaporated.
thanks to the likes of what has happened to the maze/kesh proposals!’
I disagree.The problem is that when you have pork barrel politics you get lots of porkies told and all the piggies rush to get their snouts into the trough as quickly as possible without thinking through the consequences.
In this case the business case for the stadium just isn’t rational or economic. It is just not capabale of sustaining itself in the long run. Commonsense is starting to prevail.
The only real beneficiaries would be football. Its a minority spectator sport in NI that cant sustain its existing stadia and the IFA seems so shambolic who would want to give them the money?
Killing the Maze stadium and developing an alternative package could actually be mature rational politics!
CYNIC
DUP troll. Nobody is fooled by short term party political decision.
“CYNIC” may well be a DUPer, but isn’t necessarily a troll because he/she has an opinion at odds with your own.
I’ve come across many’s a DUP, SDLP, UUP, Alliance, floating and non-voter who thinks that the Maze stadium project has always stunk to high-Heaven and never wanted a stadium built there. SF, of course, memorably wanted nothing to do with the idea of a stadium there until the idea of tieing it to some sort of memorial around the H-Blocks was hatched by a small Lagan Valley clique and, according to GAA leading light Jarlath Burns, a deal was done between SF and the GAA to support a stadium there (and try to veto one anywhere else).
The project was plainly never built on the needs or best interests of sport in general, and now that the economic fairy-tale is also being exposed, at a time of general belt-tightening, it’s no surprise it’s about to the ditched.
No loss either, and Lisburn rate-payers with be thankful in years to come, too, though their local political pygmies won’t say so as their vanity project crumbles before them.
‘When the Maze is scrapped, let’s hope the IFA, IRFU (Ulster Branch) and Ulster GAA are each required to demonstrate their success in attracting players and fans from all sections of the NI community before a single penny is allocated towards their existing stadia.’
Perhaps the IFA could demonstrate how the playing of god save the queen, the flying of the unionist stormont flag & the chanting of ‘no surrender’ at the start of every game has attracted support from the non-unionist community.
Worth noting also that it’s the IFA and its fanbase who are the one’s using the stadium plan as a begging bowl to try and get money out of the executive.
“Ballyhack”
It’s not clear from your whataboutery-
do you agree with the principle of the various associations having to prove their cross-community credentials before they get funding?
Worth noting also that it’s the IFA and its fanbase who are the one’s using the stadium plan as a begging bowl to try and get money out of the executive.
What “stadium plan”? What “begging bowl”?
If you’re talking about the Maze,then the IFA were the biggest fans.
Again,you need to clarify.
GavBelfast,
re “according to GAA leading light Jarlath Burns, a deal was done between SF and the GAA to support a stadium there (and try to veto one anywhere else).”
Its important to note it was nothing more than Jarlath Burn’s OWN PERSONAL OPINION that a deal was done.
He provided no proof, sources or quotes, in short anything, to back up his claims.
Burns is quoted as saying
“I suppose from a GAA perspective, a lot of GAA people are puzzled at the approach the Ulster Council have taken because of the amount of great stadiums we have already – do we need another one at the Maze?
But, my own belief in it is that there was a sort of an unwritten, unsaid agreement between Sinn Fein and the GAA where the republicans said they would allow the GAA to make up its own mind without interference on Rule 21 and Rule 42, and allow them to reflect on that IF the GAA, as a sort of a quid-pro-quo, would be supportive of the Maze Stadium because, of course, it is part of the project which includes H3 and the prison hospital which was of deep emotional significance to republicans”.
Jarlath’s unsubstantiated claim can be exposed as nothing more than a false conspiracy theory.
I have no idea why he would have made it.
Perhaps he doesn’t want the GAA to be part of a shared stadium, and was trying to scupper it.
Who knows?
It certainly gave ammo to the serial GAA bashers and conspiracy theorists here.
But quite clearly, he’s wrong.
For the GAA have backed the idea of a shared stadium since its inception.
Written records prove that GAA support for an inclusive stadium existed BEFORE the MAze site was donated by the Govt, and before the CTC was ever mooted.
In fact, even while it was still full of paramilitary prisoners.
At the NI Affairs Select Committee, meeting in 1999, Don Allen of the NI Sports Council confirmed that the GAA had supported a shared NI sports stadium from at least 1995 onwards.
This totally debunks any assertion that GAA support for a new stadium is in any way linked to SF policy re a reconciliation centre (or shrine if you’re a rejectionist unionist).
Don Allen’s (NI Sports COuncil) quotes from Hansard 1999:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmniaf/179/9020804.htm
Quote
21.
.
.
We have talked to the GAA and they would support very very strongly a national stadium, they would like it to happen.
.
.
38. What is the official position on the national stadium of the Gaelic Athletic Association?
(Mr Allen) Four years ago, when we were talking about a Millennium bid, we talked to them and they were very, very supportive and they have been very supportive of the national training facility.
Paul,
It’s an interesting quote; I’ve taken the liberty of including a little bit more of what Mr Allan said:
We would love to see them within the national stadium and everybody else would, but the pitch is 160 yards long by 100 yards wide and, therefore, to put a soccer or rugby pitch into the centre of it would be difficult from trying to create the atmosphere point of view, but the costs of the facility would increase dramatically because obviously everything widens.”
My emphasis there, that cost thing is important if you look at what he said next:
We have talked to the GAA and they would support very very strongly a national stadium, they would like it to happen. They have a county structure and we have been helping their grounds because they have been very very fast, through the National Lottery, to own their facilities, whereas in soccer in many cases they were professionals so we could not really help in a significant manner. If we take Casement Park within Belfast, they would want to play their county home game in their own ground, as would Tyrone or Armagh or wherever and when it comes to the all-Ireland semi-finals and finals then we would need, if we were going to put significant funding into it, a guarantee that at least one semi-final would be played for hurling and alternate years the all-Ireland football finals being played in Northern Ireland otherwise this would not represent value for money.
Did or have the GAA given that guarantee?
The answer to that question would surely prove, one way or the other, conclusively the GAA’s commitment to the national stadium.
Oneill,
“Did or have the GAA given that guarantee?
The answer to that question would surely prove, one way or the other, conclusively the GAA’s commitment to the national stadium. ”
If you’d been following this debate, surely you’d know that the GAA has committed at least 150,000 fans per year to the new shared stadium at the Maze.
This 150,000 pa stands in contrast to the 80k pa committed by soccer, and 40k pa by rugby.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7117820.stm
These figures alone are incontrovertible proof of the GAA’s commitment to this shared stadium, a commitment that, as can be seen in Hansard, has been in existence since at least 1995.
The figures also amply illustrate that gaelic football is Northern Irelands most attended team sport by a country mile.
To exclude the GAA, and the footfall it brings, from any new stadium development sends out a shameful signal that it is somehow ok for it to be disriminated against.
Surely this must be politically unacceptable, well to both Govts, SF, SDLP, Alliance, and the non McNarry wing of the UUP.
I think it is equally shameful that Don Allen and the NI Sports Council ever thought they’d get away with excluding the GAA, especially given the GAA’s enthusiastic backing of a shared stadium.
The platitudes about pitch size, county structure, and cost have since, imho, been well exposed as nothing but a series of excuses.
Croker has dispelled the pitch size excuse.
The county structure doesn’t stop the GAA requiring a large stadium – on the contrary, it draws large crowds.
As for cost, in section 39 of the minutes, Don
Allen concedes that in accommodating the GAA, “The additional cost would be between 25 and 30 per cent extra”.
The subsequently committed attendance figures (150/80/40) show that they were attempting to exclude 55% (the MAJORITY ffs) of future patrons in an attempt to save between 25-30% of the budget.
To me, its plain that the NI Sports Council were told that it was politically impossible to exclude the GAA and were sent away with a kick in their pants, and told to restart the process with the GAA onboard.
Paul,
If you’d been following this debate, surely you’d know that the GAA has committed at least 150,000 fans per year to the new shared stadium at the Maze.
I think the GAA put it slightly more conditionally than that; from the BBC report you quote:
To pay for that, the GAA has said it could bring at least 150,000 spectators to its games.
It believes the new stadium could be used to stage an All-Ireland Quarter Final or a national league decider.
So, the answer to my original question re the hurling semi-finals and alternate year all-Ireland finals is “no”.
And from the original report at the top of this post, Robinson said:
“No more is it sensible to say that if the Maze was not to go ahead that we would do nothing with football, rugby and GAA facilities elsewhere.”
So, definitely no talk of exclusion of the GAA from funding there. The only question now is whether that funding should be directed towards a new stadium or to update present facilities. Our politics here now unfortunately work on a sectarian, mutual veto, nil-sum game; if either the DUP or Sinn Fein doesn’t want a project or funding to go ahead, then it doesn’t go happen.
If the GAA is excluded from any future funding, then you will only have SF to blame, the unionists (or, if you’re really paranoid, the GAWA) can’t do it unilaterally.
oneill,
I fail to see any significance in what exact game(s) the GAA stage at a new shared stadium.
The key point must surely be that, under the Maze business plan, they committed a minimum of 150,000 fans pa, in contrast to soccer’s 80k and rugby’s 40k pa.
Are you seriously suggesting that, based on those figures (150k/80k/40k), the GAA shouldn’t be part of a publicly funded stadium, solely because they don’t commit to holding the AIF there biennially?
At best it was a stupid suggestion by Don Allen, given that the GAA would be mad to swap an 80k capacity for a 40k one to host teh AIF.
At worst, it was an ill-defined imaginary obstacle designed to keep the GAA out.
You display a lack of consistency in highlighting that the BBC’s report said that “To pay for that, the GAA has said it could bring at least 150,000 spectators to its games.”
The same report also said “The IFA said it could attract at least 80,000 fans, while Ulster Rugby estimates it could bring about 40,000 supporters through the turnstiles. ”
So why do you only seek to cast doubt on the GAA’s figures?
By your reasoning, none of the sports bodies have actually committed any fans.
Your scepticism of only the GAA’s commitment probably says more about you than the robustness of their figures.
I have no doubt that the GAA could meet these figures. In fact, with the compromise rules likely to be resurrected soon, I’d say that they would likely exceed them by some margin.
The Maze business plan is based on these commitment figures, and all three sports bodies have agreed to the business plan, signing up to the ‘Intention to Commit’ document.
The final step for the sports bodies is to agree to the terms and conditions in the Staging
Agreement.
Obviously, at this stage, the whole thing would fall off the rails if any of the sports body deviated from the commitment figures in the business plan.
GIven that the three bodies have been in discussion for several years, and have been in agreement up until this point, I’d say that its pretty unlikely that any of them would go back on their public commitments now.
They each hold a mutual veto and they’ve had ample opportunity to change terms or walk away before now.
Moving on, you don’t appear to dispute that gaelic football is the best attended team sport in NI by a country mile.
You are correct about the zero sum game in play here.
Imho, this whole stadium debate has almost been a microcosm of the relationship between unionist, nationalist and their accomodation under the GFA process.
Eventually, the parties will agree something for the greater good.
My own personal preference has always been for the Maze for the simple reason that it provides for all sports, and doesn’t discriminate agaisnt the best attended.
It settles all arguments about how to ever share out the money fairly (see my earlier post).
It delivers the highest capacity & highest standard of stadium possible.
Splitting the money according to need ie 55% for GAA, 30% for IFA and 15% for Ulster Rugby would only result in lesser quality stadia, and significant fundraising/debt for all three sports bodies.
When the UUP replace the DUP, it may happen, until then, we’re probably looking at sweet fa happening.
So why do you only seek to cast doubt on the GAA’s figures?
I doubt the IFA would have been able to bring in over 80,000 annually.
Splitting the money according to need ie 55% for GAA, 30% for IFA and 15% for Ulster Rugby would only result in lesser quality stadia, and significant fundraising/debt for all three sports bodies
You’re splitting it there according to estimated crowd figures, not need. You also seem stuck on the idea that if the Maze doesn’t come off, then the only other feasible option is a new stadium in Belfast.The money which it’s proposed to be wasted on the Maze could, if used intelligently by the respective associations, update present facilties to a high enough standard for a country of less than 1.5 million
Would the GAA still support the stadium at the Maze if the Conflict transformation Centre was not built there.
I think CTC should be based at one of the University campus such as Magee in L’Derry.
The Maze is white elephant and the money could be spent in a more productive manner.
Bin the CTC or put it in the University.
Ulsterfan,
[i]“Would the GAA still support the stadium at the Maze if the Conflict transformation Centre was not built there.”[/i]
Just cast yer gaze ever so slightly up the thread and you will find your answer.
Or in case you can’t be arsed, here’s the proof that the GAA’s support of a shared stadium is in no way linked to the CTC.
The GAA have consistently supported the shared multisports stadium since at least 1995, ie years before the concept of the CTC had ever been raised.
In fact back then, the Maze was still a big jail full of paramilitaries.
I’d say that puts that lie totally to bed.
—–
For the GAA have backed the idea of a shared stadium since its inception.
Written records prove that GAA support for an inclusive stadium existed BEFORE the MAze site was donated by the Govt, and before the CTC was ever mooted.
In fact, even while it was still full of paramilitary prisoners.
At the NI Affairs Select Committee, meeting in 1999, Don Allen of the NI Sports Council confirmed that the GAA had supported a shared NI sports stadium from at least 1995 onwards.
This totally debunks any assertion that GAA support for a new stadium is in any way linked to SF policy re a reconciliation centre (or shrine if you’re a rejectionist unionist).
Don Allen’s (NI Sports COuncil) quotes from Hansard 1999:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmniaf/179/9020804.htm
Quote
21.
.
.
We have talked to the GAA and they would support very very strongly a national stadium, they would like it to happen.
.
.
38. What is the official position on the national stadium of the Gaelic Athletic Association?
(Mr Allen) Four years ago, when we were talking about a Millennium bid, we talked to them and they were very, very supportive and they have been very supportive of the national training facility.
——
oneill,
[i]“You’re splitting it there according to estimated crowd figures, not need.
[/i]
Well what else is a stadium for but to accomodate the estimated crowds that go there?
The GAA committed 150k pa to the new shared stadium, the IFA 80k pa, and the IRFU 40k pa.
Its acknowledged that the GAA require a 40k + capacity, while soccer and rugby would settle for 25k.
To me, that looks like a firm starting point in working out the needs of each sport.
The only problem here is that the cost of a 40k capacity stadium stadium for the GAA would surely gobble up nearly all of the money that would have gone to built the Maze in the first place.
You surely can’t get a new 25k soccer/rugby stadium, AND a 40k GAA stadium out of the original budget.
So what to do?
Well, splitting the money three ways may give the IFA and the IRFU enough to build, say a joint 25k stadium.
But it would clearly discriminate against the GAA.
The GAA’s need for a higher capacity stadium may be less urgent than the IFA’s, but is real nonetheless.
Casement has only 2500 seats. The remaining 30k capacity is on uncovered terraces. And it has no room to be upgraded.
A third of the overall funding would be nowhere near enough for the GAA to build a stadium that meets their 40k requirement, especially a high quality one built to the same all seated, all covered standard of rugby/soccer’s theoretical new stadium.
So even though we have an EQUAL split financially, the outcome is far from EQUITABLE, in that the majority of GAA fans will still have to endure the elements while their soccer and rugby supporting brethren are sitting pretty in a publicly funded stadium.
Given that GAA fans constitute the majority of sports fans who would use a NI stadium in any one year (see original Maze commitment figures), their treatment in an equal three way carve up would surely be seen as discriminatory, and must be deemed politically unacceptable – well by the British Govt, if not the DUP.
The alternative is to allocate according to need, as per Maze committed attendance figures and desired capacity.
As already stated, you surely can’t get a new 25k soccer/rugby stadium, AND a 40k GAA stadium out of the original budget.
So the only alternative is to give all sports the same percentage of their likely stadium spend, ie
If the GAA reckon it will cost 40Million for a 40k stadium, they get 50% of that figure.
Similarly soccer/rugby would get 50% of their, say 25 Million cost.
The likely problem here though is that Unionists will not be able to stomach the GAA getting the lions share of the funding.
Maybe the parallel is that Unionists haven’t yet accepted that the GAA is the largest spectator sport out of the three.
Regardless of the reasoning, I just can’t see Robinson going down this route.
Which leads me to believe that the Maze proposal, as unpopular as it was, might still be the only fair way to distribute the funding in any sort of fair way without bitterness or accusations of discrimination.
[i] You also seem stuck on the idea that if the Maze doesn’t come off, then the only other feasible option is a new stadium in Belfast.”[/i]
Funny, I can’t remember saying that.
On the other hand, I do remember agreeing with you that the most likely option is for nothing to happen at all, ie no new stadium, no major upgrades for anyone.
Well, not until the more sensible UUP get into power.
I recall Reg Empey claiming pride in the UUP’s role in negotiating the free handover of the Maze site, in contrast to the DUP’s failure to get the same for subsequently vacated army bases.
He also sensibly suggests that the stadium and CTC be separated into two independent issues, possibly by appointing a holding company to develop the site.
As per previous post above, I can’t envisage any political agreement as to how to split the (probably smaller) pot if the Maze is rejected.
I see you dismiss arguments such as pitch size and capacity as ‘platitudes’ and ‘excuses’ – they are very real concerns. The sentiment of a shared stadium is nice; the realiy is unworkable.
It’s worth noting that no sports body has actually signed up to any number of games – they provided estimates (based on rather optimistic attendance figures, at least in the case of football and rugby), however they have not firmly, formally commmitted to anything. The GAA and the Ulster Branch both have alterntive facilities available; the IFA would not.
It was the GAA who pushed for the capacity to be raised to 42,500 from 30,000, as this would better suit them. Clearly they are looking out for their own interests – as should the IFA, by rejecting a project that would see games such as the Co Antrim shield (where you would be lucky to break 5,000) being played in a 40,000 seater arena.
You seem determined to pin all this on unionist instragience and distrust of the GAA, which is lazy at best.
By the way, as I have said before the total cost of a stadium does not come from public money alone – private developers and businesses have a hand in these things too, and as has already been pointed out the GAA have benefitted previously from the UK Lottery fund as an amateur organisation.
Well what else is a stadium for but to accomodate the estimated crowds that go there?
I didn’t explain myself well enough, does the GAA necessarily need a new stadium in Ulster?
DM,
[i]I see you dismiss arguments such as pitch size and capacity as ‘platitudes’ and ‘excuses’ – they are very real concerns.
The sentiment of a shared stadium is nice; the reality is unworkable. [/i]
Well the shared use of Croker kicks that statement into touch.
With Croker, there’ve been no complaints so far from the IRFU or FAI.
In fact, efforts are being made by the IRFU to get the GAA to agree to playing more big games there in future, even after Lansdowne comes online.
The Maze is being tailored to the needs of rugby and soccer to ensure that smaller crwods aren’t lost there
See the Ulster Rugby CEO’s comments at http://www.ulsterrugby.com/11_6448.php
“Now that the Maze is the only option, there is no doubt that these are state-of-the-art facilities, and we got a lot of changes that we asked for.
The design is a three tier design.
We have got the capacity of the bottom bowl of the stadium reduced from 25000 to 18000;
we got the Box levels that were up in Levels 2 & 3, brought down to Level 1, so with a crowd of 18000,
we could have that self contained on one level for rugby,
and we also got a lot of technical changes made that we wanted.
We have also negotiated a substantial decrease in rent.
Only a quarter of the crowd at Ravenhill sit and if you charge the same price for a seat here, to sit at the Maze,
we could make £75-80k more per match, simply because everyone would be seated.
Even with rent which would be about £30k per match, we would still be £40- 50k better off.
That is at today’s prices in about 4 years time, so there is no need for astronomical price increases.”
Allegedly, and I have been trying to google this one, the end stands are planned to be retractable to make rugby / soccer fans closer to the pitch.
For the soccer & rugby fan, this new stadium would be better than Croker.
DM,
[i]It’s worth noting that no sports body has actually signed up to any number of games – they provided estimates (based on rather optimistic attendance figures, at least in the case of football and rugby), however they have not firmly, formally commmitted to anything.[/i]
As already stated, the Maze business plan is based on these commitment figures (150k/80k/40k pa).
All three sports bodies have agreed to the business plan, signing up to the ‘Intention to Commit’ document.
The final step for the sports bodies is to agree to the terms and conditions in the Staging Agreement.
Obviously, at this stage, the whole thing would fall off the rails if any of the sports body deviated from the commitment figures in the business plan.
Given that the three bodies have been in discussion for several years, and have been in agreement up until this point, I’d say that its pretty unlikely that any of them would go back on their public commitments now.
They each hold a mutual veto and they’ve had ample opportunity to change terms or walk away before now.
Just for the record, the business plan acknowledges that the estimates chosen for the business plan are very much on the conservative side.
DM,
[i]The GAA and the Ulster Branch both have alterntive facilities available; the IFA would not.[/i]
Well that’s really an issue for the IFA, not for the other sports bodies.
But, anyway, do they not have Windsor?
Its a better stadium than either Casement or Ravenhill at the minute.
If it needs improved, they can do what the GAA have done for 100 years, and dip their hands into their pockets, or those of their supporters and upgrade it themselves.
I do recall feeling a sense of injustice way back in 1983 when the govt paid for the North Stand @ windsor park, while much bigger crowds at GAA matches were standing on unsafe grass banks, yet the GAA got nothing.
Since then GAA stadia have improved slightly in that we now have concrete terracing, mostly paid for by ourselves.
We’re still nowhere near having anything as good as the North stand.
If,as the IFA allege, there is no long term prospect of ever making money from the NI team with constrained capacities, then I’d say it is in NI soccer fans own interests to support the Maze, as it looks like the only option that will ever roll.
After all, so far NI soccer fans have been the anti-Maze ringleaders, so its hard to have any sympathy if their campaigning sinks the shared stadium, but gives them no alternative to go to.
If you doubt the GAA’s needs to upgrade their stadia, have a look at the main stand at Clones.
http://www.mcaviney.com/gallery/med.php?id=42999&cat=316
This accomodates about 20,000.
The first few rows have uncovered concrete benches. The rest are very basic terracing.
Casement is even worse, 2,500 seats out of a 32k capacity, with no room to expand.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode;=&q=owenvarragh+park&sll=54.573169,-5.984652&sspn=0.005834,0.014591&ie=UTF8&ll=54.573256,-5.983665&spn=0.002917,0.007296&t=h&z=17
Plus Clones is in the arse end of nowhere. Rather than waste money at either, we’d be better to start again, in somewhere more central.