Speaking truth unto power gets awkward…
A free press is not exactly a prerequisite for a free society, but it’s absence is (or should be) extremely worrying. In all of the comment in the MSN last week, this aspect of the climbdown of the Andersonstown News after pressure was applied over an article the paper published from its erstwhile columnist/humourist, Squinter seemed largely to be missed. It’s all the more puzzling since Gerry Adams is sitting on the fourth safest majority in the House of Commons with a whopping 68.6 per cent of the popular vote. On Thursday Alex Maskey expressed the hope that the paper’s response to his party’s concerns should be an end to the matter. Over at the Guardian, I’ve argued that there that both reflects badly on his paper and raises questions about just how ready Sinn Fein is to live with the vigorous scrutiny of a courageous and free press.
“It was also told an unlicensed AK47 and rifle were found at Mr Cleary’s home during a police search on Friday.”
There is progress for you, the sov squirt gun was apparently unlicenced, it is probably a bit like a BBC TV licence, I mean why get one?
“Incredibly he manages to get bail for possession of an AK47!!”
I have a great deal of sympathy for the view that the very last AKM ( the species is surely of that pedigree), in the entire north of our wee bog, not covered in concrete, should be preseved for future generations to gawk at.
VW Beetles have killed more people than AK 47′s apparently, (Africa doesn’t count)
Would we be hankering after a lynching if one of those was in his drive way?
I think not, we’d merely feel confused by the casual vindictiveness of it all.
We shouldn’t rush to judge.
G.
“You are preaching to the converted if you are indeed arguing(somewhere amongst your posts) that SF and GA need a shake up. ”
The point of politics is to bang it home. Two legs bad, four legs good.
There is no point going forward half-believing in anything. SF have taught us that much.
G.
>>Prince
So for the sake of completeness, and knowing you may well attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill. SF did indeed receive 23,631 votes out of an electorate of 50,792. However only 34,238 valid Votes were cast. Which in anyone’s language makes a massive majority.
A “massive majority” of those who voted, but that is not what you said. You made a point of saying they had a “massive majority” of the electorate. That is quite something else, and it is not true.
Posted by willowfield on Apr 01, 2008 @ 05:57 PM<<
*GROANS*
I stand by everything I have said.
Tell you what why don’t you chap on everyone’s door that never voted and take a record of who they would have voted for if they had bothered to go to the polls. better still ask around for someone to go with you as a witness. Then you can say I am wrong if all or the vast majority of those people intimate to you that they would not have voted SF.
Or, you could more productively give yirsel a kick on the arse and stop being a nuisance, a pointless pain in the rectal passage. Knowing you though I guess that you will be looking for a witness to corroborate your door chapping. best of British and all that.
*DOUBLE GROANS*
Ok Gregory, I am going to have to hold my hands up and say that I have not an effin clue what you are on about. I don’t know if it is me but most of the stuff I have read from you these past weeks bewilders me.
I stand by everything I have said.
How can you, when what you said is untrue?
Tell you what why don’t you chap on everyone’s door that never voted and take a record of who they would have voted for if they had bothered to go to the polls. better still ask around for someone to go with you as a witness. Then you can say I am wrong if all or the vast majority of those people intimate to you that they would not have voted SF.
You are wrong. You said a massive majority of the electorate voted for the Provos and that’s not true. It doesn’t matter what people might say they “would have done” – if they didn’t do it, then they didn’t do it.
You made a point of claiming that a massive majority of the ELECTORATE voted for the Provos: you didn’t say a massive majority of those voting. Just admit that you were wrong.
>>Just admit that you were wrong.< <
Naw! Go and chap some doors and prove me wrong. By any accepted reasonable standards around about 70% of votes tallied your ways is taken as a massive majority of the electorate. BTW don't you have some kind of inner voice telling you to chuck making an arse of yirsel, or perhaps the doctors convinced you that the voices are bad and not to listen to them?
>>You said a massive majority of the electorate voted for the Provos< <
That is a lie, as someone fond of labeling people as liars on this forum you do tend to do a bit yirsel.
>>you didn’t say a massive majority of those voting.<<
Perhaps because any sensible reasonable person would have taken this as a given, yep ok, granted I guess that rules you out. We can’t all be expected to cater for your tiresome pedantry *all the time* though can we?
Prince
Naw! Go and chap some doors and prove me wrong.
I don’t need to “chap” any doors: the election result proves you wrong!
By any accepted reasonable standards around about 70% of votes tallied your ways is taken as a massive majority of the electorate.
Er, no it isn’t! It’s taken, arguably, as a massive majority of voters!
That is a lie, as someone fond of labeling people as liars on this forum you do tend to do a bit yirsel.
Er, it’s not a lie … you’ve even admitted above that you said massive majority of the electorate!
Perhaps because any sensible reasonable person would have taken this as a given
Why should anyone take as a given that when you used the word “electorate” you weren’t actually referring to the electorate??
Willow
>>PE – Naw! Go and chap some doors and prove me wrong.
Willow – I don’t need to “chap” any doors: the election result proves you wrong!< <
Around 70% is a massive majority, not to you maybe, but to any sane bastard.
>>PE – By any accepted reasonable standards around about 70% of votes tallied your ways is taken as a massive majority of the electorate.
Willo – Er, no it isn’t! It’s taken, arguably, as a massive majority of voters!< <
ARGUABLY! God in heaven give me strength.
>>Willow – You said a massive majority of the electorate voted for the Provos
PE – That is a lie, as someone fond of labeling people as liars on this forum you do tend to do a bit yirsel.
Willow – Er, it’s not a lie … you’ve even admitted above that you said massive majority of the electorate<<
You have missed out a word there Willow, starts with P. I’ve got work to do now, so won’t be able to entertain you for a while. Take a hint though and start listening to the voices, they are right sometimes.
You made a point of claiming that a massive majority of the ELECTORATE voted for the Provos: you didn’t say a massive majority of those voting. Just admit that you were wrong.
Posted by willowfiel
If you dont vote you arent part of the electorate and neither do you count in the results
Eoghan was is and will remain perfectly correct
If you dont vote you arent part of the electorate
Yes you are. Check out the electoral register!
Prince
Around 70% is a massive majority, not to you maybe, but to any sane bastard.
Of voters … But only about 60% of the electorate voted.
>>Willow – You said a massive majority of the electorate voted for the Provos
PE – That is a lie, as someone fond of labeling people as liars on this forum you do tend to do a bit yirsel.
ARGUABLY! God in heaven give me strength.
I don’t see why you need strength to accept that it could be argued that 70% wasn’t necessarily a “massive” majority. It means 3 out of 10 people oppose you. It’s certainly a very big majority.
You have missed out a word there Willow, starts with P.
You said “Sinn Féin” had a massive majority of the electorate. If you weren’t talking about the Provos, did you mean Official SF, Republican SF, or who?
This thread has become pure pedantry, and I’m loathe to get involved. But…if the electorate is only those who vote, then when people say, for example, the turn out rate was 65%, then what was it 65% of, if not the electorate?
Having said that, I think Eoghan is essentially correct about the overwhelming support that PSF enjoys in west Belfast, and pedantry does not change that fact.
My contribution’s a bit out of date now, but I just wanted to say that I would back up the other calls for the squinter article to be returned to both the a’twon news site and to squinter’s. Its removal is indeed a form of self-censorship, and should not have happened.
It appears to be a little more than self-censorship. Self-censorship is something someone willingly indulges in, I feel this was purely as a result of improper political pressure being exerted.
And mores the pity. Squinter did, whether Gerry Adams likes it or not, articulate what a lot of people in West Belfast feel. What he articulated, as painful as it may be to Gerry and Pol Deeds, was supported by numerous people in the actual cortege of Baps, which I was in as it moved up the Falls and into the City Cemetary.
It also reflected the opinions of a considerable number of those who left Baps graveside at the precise moment Gerry Adams began to speak.
It might be painful but it doesn’t warrant it untrue, as the vast majority of blog entries can attest to.
“Ok Gregory, I am going to have to hold my hands up and say that I have not an effin clue what you are on about. I don’t know if it is me but most of the stuff I have read from you these past weeks bewilders me.”
Dear Prince
I have had dealings with SF over the years and they’re positively surreal, and they’re getting more Orwellian and group-thinkish by the day.
I was BTW exaggerating ever so slightly about the VW Beetles. Thimble and bucket if I can paraphrse the Deputy First Minister. The Ak47 is way ahead of the killing game.
If I did what Ruane or Adams do, I’d hire scriptwriters and a PR agency. It is nice to be able to simply make things up.
Believing 100 percent is something is good, but not if you know it is bollox, which is the SF problem.
They are group-thinkers, they’d have to vote at committee on whether the world was a sphere and if Gerry had reservations, they’d all officially (at least) have ‘global’ doubts.
Gerry is their Pope, he’s right even when he’s obviously wrong.
They’re a bit like the Vatican of the 1400s, the deal isn’t whether X is X, the issue is whether SF concede X is X.
Other people do it as well to whatever extent.
I can’t do the sort of thing the BBC do, the kind of fabricated news for a corporate ( news generating) client sort of thing. Take this sort of surreal report.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/mid/6968317.stm
(A)
A North Wales Police spokeswoman said the pupil was not cautioned formally but received a reprimand.
(B)
A Flintshire Council spokesman said: “We are not aware of any incident of this nature in a Flintshire school.”
THe BBC still report it as a firm fact.
A can’t be true without B, that’s the NEOST or IRSC guidellines,
I’ll tell you what Ruane would do, she’d go for (A) and forget about the the NEOST or IRSC aspects because it doesn’t have to be true, official, authentic, legitimate, or lawful not for Ms Ruane. She’s a SF person,
enough said.
G.
Honestly Greg the more you try to explain the less clear it becomes that last post is either messing with my dyslexia or its as nonsensical as a Dr. Seus Opera
Greg
No offence ma man! I am with Steve here, I sort of understood only about half of that. However I am still not sure how it pertains to anything I wrote earlier.
Willow
>>I don’t see why you need strength to accept that it could be argued that 70% wasn’t necessarily a “massive” majority. It means 3 out of 10 people oppose you. It’s certainly a very big majority.< <
You really need to get a life LOL!
>>You said “Sinn Féin” had a massive majority of the electorate. If you weren’t talking about the Provos, did you mean Official SF, Republican SF, or who?<<
Please could you point out where I made any claim about the Provos, except to say they weren’t standing. Perhaps we will have to call you Willow Liar?
Apologies to all for teasing the bold Willow, I sort of wanted to see just how far he would go. Boy does that fella go all the way into an alleyway of pointless dead endery.
Prince
You really need to get a life LOL!
I’ve got one, thanks.
Please could you point out where I made any claim about the Provos, except to say they weren’t standing.
In response to a reference to Sinn Féin, you said they had a massive majority of the electorate. If you weren’t talking about the Provos, which SF did you mean? Official SF, Republican SF, or who?
I take it now that you accept that they don’t have a massive majority of the electorate?
crossmaglen arrest
further to the arrest and bail of the Crossmaglen shinner the latest developement is that a placard was erected near Crossmaglen last night stating
“FREE THE LISBEG ONE”
“UNLICENSED TO KILL”
“PLEASE RELEASE JIM CLEARY”
Is that strange beast ‘the community’ starting to take the mickey out of ‘republicans’? Surely not, first the andytown and now people in Cross.
Longlake
I would think this would be a positive sign
As obviously this person does not fear retribution so the provos have gone away, and the community knows it even if the poster here and the unionists dont.
Heres a hint its past the sell by date for blaming the Provos for violence in the republican communities
And willowfield while I know its part of the psychosis of unionism, Sinn Fein and the Provisional IRA are not one and the same so again prince is perfectly accurate saying the Provos didn’t stand because they didn’t, end of.
What you call SF is Provisional Sinn Fein. Part of the Provisional movement. Both are accurately described as Provos. To say it is accurate for one and not the other makes no sense.
“that last post is either messing with my dyslexia or its as nonsensical as a Dr. Seus”
You’ve hit it on the head, all we need is the rhyming text and SF might become the party of Dr. Seuss. Two S in Seuss is the other bit.
G.
“Sinn Fein and the Provisional IRA are not one and the same”
Would you agree that they are two of the PRM ‘wings’ and that they are ‘governed’ by the PRM AC, Steve? I understand there’s an extensive interchange of personnel. Don’t forget the organised crime and civic justice wings …
>>You made a point of claiming that a massive majority of the ELECTORATE voted for the Provos:< <
I made no such claim Willow. Perpetuating it by trying to get me to explain the obvious won't work.
As you are fond of asking others to retract 'scurrilous lies' I would be neglectful if I didn't insist on the same. please make my apology a massive one please!
Garibaldy
>>Both are accurately described as Provos.<<
I have never, ever in my puff hear of SF describing themselves as Provos, never, the IRA have that nickname all to themselves. When I say that SF receive massive amount of electoral support from West Belfast, all sane people know what I mean. You are treading on the Willow’s territory by claiming that I could have meant anything other.
Nevin
Shit stir away!
PE,
If you look above, comment 11 on this page, you’ll see that I agree with your statement that PSF have overwhelming support, and that that is what you meant. Nevertheless, the term Provisional applies to the entire movement. It comes from the Provos themselves in the split in the IRA in 1969, and subsequently in SF. The dissidents, political and military, giving their allegiance to the Provisional Army Council. But continue to take your experience as representative of reality in NI and in Ireland since the start of the Troubles.
Garibaldy
Look this is silly, Willow will be pissing himself laughing at what he is causing.
I made a simple statement, if we look hard enough we can find a other little inferences, imagined or not.
When I refer to SF, I mean SF. Anything else and I will specify. The Provos, have and always will be the IRA, should I mention the Provos in a conversation or in written word, no-one(willow apart) would find cause to stop me and ask for clarity, as it would be clear just what I mean. Whatever outworkings that are in the general organisation mean nothing in my simple little statement referring th SF.
You might mean the military side. But people often mean the collective entity. Or nowadays, just the political end. For example, Alasdair McDonnel of the SDLP will use it this way, as will Trimble. As will former members of the Provos, both the political and military end. E.g. RSF people or people from eirigi or whatever.
So it’s clear what you mean. But equally what others mean too when they refer to it.
>>As will former members of the Provos, both the political and military end.<<
I know I am leaving myself opoen to accusations of pettiness, however I truly have never, ever heard anyone fron SF referring to themselves as Provos. So if you can show me an example or two of this I will happilly concede. And next time I will bewilder people when speaking of the Provos by reassuring them that I mean IRA provos and not SF Provos or any other kind of Provos.
“When I say that SF receive massive amount of electoral support from West Belfast, all sane people know what I mean. ”
Electorism is a disease. How take the Vatican, a restricted poll, you can’t leave until it’s done
you get a quick pat-down, and a puff of smoke, nobody is going to do a Squinter on the Holy Father,
crime in the Vatican is also down! We won’t count the banking stuff.
Nevin
Would you agree that they are two of the PRM ‘wings’ and that they are ‘governed’ by the PRM AC, Steve? I understand there’s an extensive interchange of personnel. Don’t forget the organised crime and civic justice wings …
I’ll quote Jonathon Powell. This seems accurate to me:
And yet it wasn’t as simple as the unionist claim that the two organisations were one and the same. In the early days I, like the unionists, would talk about the IRA/Sinn Féin in one breath. But the two organisations were different. There wasn’t a complete overlap in their membership and their political imperatives were not the same. Some in the physical force republican movement were not politically subtle and some in Sinn Féin were not engaged in physical violence
But you know, knock yourself out with the conspiracy theories if it makes you happy.
IRA regattas are not a display of Big Brother No1′s naval power, unless..
The International Rowing Association
was apparently faresighted enough to skip the provisional stage.
Your search – “provisional International Rowing Association” – did not match any documents.
Suggestions:
Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
Try different keywords.
Try more general keywords.
I research my posts to da Slug
))
G.
STEVE
And willowfield while I know its part of the psychosis of unionism, Sinn Fein and the Provisional IRA are not one and the same so again prince is perfectly accurate saying the Provos didn’t stand because they didn’t, end of.
Maybe PIRA and PSF are not one and the same (I never said that they were), but they are part of the PRM and PSF stood in the election.
PRINCE
I made no such claim Willow. Perpetuating it by trying to get me to explain the obvious won’t work.
You did. Hence the discussion.
As you are fond of asking others to retract ‘scurrilous lies’ I would be neglectful if I didn’t insist on the same. please make my apology a massive one please!
I haven’t told any lies, so I have nothing to retract, and nothing to apologise for.
I have never, ever in my puff hear of SF describing themselves as Provos, never, the IRA have that nickname all to themselves. When I say that SF receive massive amount of electoral support from West Belfast, all sane people know what I mean. You are treading on the Willow’s territory by claiming that I could have meant anything other.
I have never claimed that you meant that there was support for any organisation other than PSF (although, by extension, it could be argued that support for PSF translates into support for the other wing of the PRM: PIRA – but I accept that things aren’t as straightforward).
I take it now that you accept that PSF don’t have a massive majority of the electorate?
Willow
>>You did. Hence the discussion.< <
Aye, I did mention to Garibaldy that our futile conversation would give you pleasure, enjoy your semi!
>>I haven’t told any lies, so I have nothing to retract, and nothing to apologise for.< <
Really? well I think you have, and tried to excuse yirsel on the flimsiest of technicalities. Anyhow my reason for pursuing it was to highlight your pathetic blustering and demands of others to do the same for you. I'll not hold my breath waiting for an apology mind.
>>I take it now that you accept that PSF don’t have a massive majority of the electorate?< <
I stand by my claim that SF enjoy massive support amongst the electorate of West Belfast. perhaps you claim otherwise, but that claim is not worth a dod a keek in the general view of things.
>>Maybe PIRA and PSF are not one and the same (I never said that they were), but they are part of the PRM and PSF stood in the election.<<
Please show me a ballot paper or electoral list that shows PSF(sic) stood in the recent election?
PRINCE
Really?
Yes.
well I think you have, and tried to excuse yirsel on the flimsiest of technicalities.
Well, you’re wrong. And, in any case, I don’t believe that you really do think that I told any lies.
I stand by my claim that SF enjoy massive support amongst the electorate of West Belfast.
That wasn’t your claim: your claim was that they a “massive majority” of the ELECTORATE voted for them.
Please show me a ballot paper or electoral list that shows PSF(sic) stood in the recent election?
No worries – I’ll do that when you show me a ballot paper or electoral list that shows that the Tories stood in the recent election.
PE,
To cut a long story short, and as you know, no organisation likes to refer to itself with a prefix. So when the dissidents left Sinn Fein and the IRA to form the Provisionals in 1969-70, both groups referred to themselves as Sinn Fein, and it was the media that came up with the term Official Sinn Fein. As I said earlier, it was however the Provos themselves who came up with the term the Provisional Army Council.
If you look through the propaganda organs of both organisations from the 1970s, you will see occasional references by each organisation referring to itself as Official or Provisional, but once Sinn Fein became Sinn Fein The Workers’ Party, the Provisionals largely stopped using the term of themeselves as a means of claiming republican legitimacy. In the same way that supporters of the Real IRA refer to it as the IRA, and their former comrades as the Provisionals.
If you want the proof, you can look it up for yourself next time you are in Belfast as little of it is online. However, you could check out this link at CAIN which references Provisional Sinn Fein
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/sorgan.htm#sf
and you could also note the sources where it cites Peter Taylor’s Provos: The IRA and Sinn Fein. The book and TV show were made with cooperation from the Provos, and discussed PSF policy as well as military stuff. Inherent in that is a recognition that both were part of the Provisional movement.
So it could be we are all making it up. Or it could be that the people you talk to take it to mean the military end only, while others take it to mean both.
Garibaldy
What a pile of shite! Are you of the opinion that I know so little of the Republican movement that I need a schoolboy type lecture?
Just because opponents use the term Provos in a disparaging way does not make it a legitimate term for SF. No more if I called Rangers the Huns, or the OO Orangies. Now show me where SF refer to themselves as Provos or gie’s peace. SF are not commonly known as the Provos. Btw I refer you to your opening remark about needless pedantry, far from killing it, you have fed some loon’s silly obsession.
Willow Liar
>>…… I don’t believe that you really do think that I told any lies.< <
Did you or did you not state that I claimed the Provos had massive electoral support in West Belfast, or words to that effect? Considering that I did not this is construed as a lie in anyone's language, no matter how unimportant. Your failure to retract the claim only serves to highlight something I'd have preferred to move on from. As I've told you in the past when you have apologised to me we all make an arse of ourselves from time to time, no need to crucify others over it.
>>PE – I stand by my claim that SF enjoy massive support amongst the electorate of West Belfast.
WL – That wasn’t your claim: your claim was that they a “massive majority” of the ELECTORATE voted for them.< <
Would one not follow the other though, ie my original claim makes a certainty of my following claim. What another pathetic attempt at mindless pedantry, you really are becoming a bore. Still you don't not think around 70% makes a massive majority Willow?
>>No worries – I’ll do that when you show me a ballot paper or electoral list that shows that the Tories stood in the recent election.<<
Why should I? Where have I claimed the Tories have stood in West Belfast? Put up or shut up, show me where PSF(sic) have stood in any recent election in West Belfast. Any further prevarication will tell us all we need to know of your spurious and ultimately sad claims.
PE,
Frankly, your posts on the Famine and on other issues repeatedly show you don’t know as much as you think you do. Go away and read the stuff I suggested from say 1970 to 1977, tell me you find no references to people from PSF referring to the Provisional Movement, then I might take you seriously. I enjoy discussing things with you civilly (as happened with the famine) but if you’re going to swear and effectively accuse me of talking in bad faith and making things up, when you haven’t checked the originals, then I won’t bother.
Garibaldy
>>Frankly, your posts on the Famine and on other issues repeatedly show you don’t know as much as you think you do.<<
Big statement, very big. I’ll have to watch my step in such esteemed company.
Your needless lecture was irrelevant to the subject in hand, in fact I believed that you were patronising me, your follow up has only confirmed that, insulting as well actually. As far as swearing at you, gie’s peace! Does writing shite cause you such distress? Jeezo, stop being so precious.
Now do SF refer to themselves as the Provos or not? You claimed they do, that is the subject at hand, yes? Being historically part of the provisional movement, or provisional wing is irrelevant, and demanding that I check originals gets me where exactly?
Back to basics.
Garibaldy, perhaps I accord you with having a smidgeon of an idea concerning partisan politics, which is why I left some things unstated. Certainly you do not accord me with having a smidgeon of knowledge regarding the IRA, thus the convoluted lecture on what is common knowledge.
So to get to the heart of the matter, Willow was seeking to denigrate, disparage if you like the credentials of the largest nationalist party in the six counties. Calling SF ‘the Provos’ harks back to a tried and trusted and largley failed Unionist campaign(remember SF/IRA speak)still used here on occasion by die hards. Said campaign seeks to undermine the legitimacy of SF by equating them with the IRA. Thus SF are not really a political party, just a mouthpiece propaganda material for the IRA etc. I really didn’t believe that it was necessary to relate this as I assumed you would be aware of this. In fact I’m positive you are aware of this, thus leaving it previously unstated. Nevertheless, subsequent events have led to the need for clarity.
The fact that the born again IRA used the term ‘provisional’ to distinguish themselves from the old or ‘official’ IRA is neither here nor there when it comes to labelling SF as the Provos. I repeat this is a tag/nickname used by all and sundry for the IRA. Just because political opponents wish to use this in an attempt to smear or undermine SF, does not legitimise it. SF do not and would not accept that this is a fit and proper name for them.
I asked you to show me evidence of your claim that SF sometimes referred to themselves as such. Instead I received a lecture on stuff which is pretty much common knowledge. I have yet to view anything that backs your point, which I have already stated if viewed I would be happy to concede. Now forgive my frustration from earlier, perhaps you might understand it now that I have been crystal.
Willow has already noted his enjoyment in you having me jump through these needless hoops.
PE,
I wasn’t intending to come across as patronising. You’ll see I said “as you know” in comment 84 but it’s possible others might be reading who don’t know the details. I had meant to take the frankly sentence out of the last post, but had forgotten.
I said that members of PSF refer to themselves as the Provos, you said that they didn’t. On the basis that you had never heard anyone from PSF refer to the party as the Provos, only the military wing.
I have had conversations with people I know in PSF refer to the Provos and mean the party. However, without taping such a conversation and putting it on the net, then the evidence I can offer comes from the period when they frequently called themselves that in public statements. Which is the significance of the originals. It’s proof that they have used the term of themselves, even if they don’t do it publicly any more. In the same way that the PIRA only ever calls itself the IRA, and hasn’t referred to the Provisional Army Council of the IRA formally in years.
So in short, formally I agree that the party does not refer to itself as the Provos. But then again, formally neither does the military wing, yet you are happy to accept that its members and supporters describe it as the Provos.
So what we’re arguing over is the way people talk about them in social and informal settings. The reason I’m coming across as irritable is that because you are effectively telling me that because you have never heard anyone refer to them as the Provos then I must be making stuff up. Which is a little hard to take as most people don’t like being called liars, and because it takes your experience as a visitor to NI to be more authentic than that of those who grew up and live here. Which strikes me as patronising and insulting, even if it wasn’t intended to be.
PE,
We’ve both been posting when our tempers are a little short, but no offence intended on either side and no harm done I hope. I starting writing my last before your last appeared. We’ll have to agree to disagree on whether the naming of the new military organisation as the Provisionals has any importance for what we call the allied political organisation. What we can agree on is that in this day and age the party itself would not use the term Provisional.
On Willowfield’s point, you’re totally right on the substantive point about the overwhelming support the party has among those who vote in west Belfast. He’s in the wrong on that substantive point. Whatever about some unionists, I have absolutely no problem recognising the legitimacy of their mandate, so if I refer to PSF it’s not an attempt to deny that.
>>We’ve both been posting when our tempers are a little short, but no offence intended on either side and no harm done I hope.< <
Agreed!
>>…on the substantive point…< <
Now if only you had listened to me in the first place(or yourself for that matter
) Pedantry is Willows obsession. I wouldn’t blame him for having a laugh at my expense, suppose it gets me back for ripping the piss in the latter part of this thread.
PRINCE EOGHAN
Now show me where SF refer to themselves as Provos or gie’s peace. SF are not commonly known as the Provos.
Just because PSF themselves don’t refer to themselves as PSF, doesn’t mean that it is not entirely legitimate or reasonable for others so to refer to them. The Provos have no more right to appropriate the name “Sinn Féin” for themselves as to RSF, 32SC, the Workers [sic] Party, or even FG or FF. In fact, if we are to attribute the name to the party which has deviated least from the 2nd Dáil, then RSF get the name.
>>…… I don’t believe that you really do think that I told any lies.< <
Did you or did you not state that I claimed the Provos had massive electoral support in West Belfast, or words to that effect?
YOU stated that they had the support of a “massive majority” of the ELECTORATE. I pointed out that they got support from less than half of the electorate at the last election.
Considering that I did not this is construed as a lie in anyone’s language, no matter how unimportant.
This doesn’t make sense. Nothing I have said is untrue. All I did was take issue with your claim about PSF having support from a “massive majority” of the ELECTORATE.
Your failure to retract the claim only serves to highlight something I’d have preferred to move on from.
What “claim”??
Please retract your accusation that I have lied. I don’t lie.
Would one not follow the other though, ie my original claim makes a certainty of my following claim.
Not necessarily: we do not know what proportion of non-voters support PSF.
Still you don’t not think around 70% makes a massive majority Willow?
It’s arguable whether you could say “massive”, but it’s certainly a very large majority (of voters).
>>No worries – I’ll do that when you show me a ballot paper or electoral list that shows that the Tories stood in the recent election.< <
Why should I?
Because you’re arguing that you can’t refer to parties by any name other than the “official” name by which they prefer to be known. By the same token, we should never refer to the Tories (or, indeed the “Stoops”, or the “DUPes”, or the “Blueshirts”, etc.
Where have I claimed the Tories have stood in West Belfast?
Nowhere. Why do you ask?
Put up or shut up, show me where PSF(sic) have stood in any recent election in West Belfast.
Um, they’ve stood in them all since the early 80s!
Willow
It doesnt matter if your name is on the roles if you don’t vote you arent part of the electorate
Participation is the point, if you don’t participate you arent part of the electorate
>>Please retract your accusation that I have lied. I don’t lie.<<
Please retract your claim that I retract my many points stating the obvious that you lied!
For the last time I did not make any claims electorally concerning the Provos, you claim I did, this is untrue. An untruth that you have persisted in, thus it is now established as a lie. That in effect, unless rectified with a grovelling apology and a bit of feet kissing makes you a big fat LIAR!
STEVE
It doesnt matter if your name is on the roles if you don’t vote you arent part of the electorate
Wrong. You’re part of the electorate if you’re on the electoral register. You can then choose whether or not to vote, but if you don’t vote it doesn’t mean you’re not part of the electorate.
PRINCE
Please retract your claim that I retract my many points stating the obvious that you lied!
Claim? I asked you to retract your accusations: I didn’t make any claim.
For the last time I did not make any claims electorally concerning the Provos, you claim I did, this is untrue.
Zzzzzzzzz
You know perfectly well that I was referring to Provisional Sinn Féin – or as you choose to refer to them “Sinn Féin”. And, even if you didn’t initially, it couldn’t have been made clearer in the subsequent discussion, and intervention by Garibaldy. Clearly you didn’t read my last post on the issue, but let me restate it: “Just because PSF themselves don’t refer to themselves as PSF, doesn’t mean that it is not entirely legitimate or reasonable for others so to refer to them. The Provos have no more right to appropriate the name “Sinn Féin” for themselves as to RSF, 32SC, the Workers [sic] Party, or even FG or FF. In fact, if we are to attribute the name to the party which has deviated least from the 2nd Dáil, then RSF get the name.”
Faux ignorance about to whom I was referring doesn’t alter the reality that you claimed they had a massive majority of the ELECTORATE, when they don’t.
An untruth that you have persisted in, thus it is now established as a lie.
I told no untruth and no lie – as you know. This faux ignorance about what I meant is silly.
That in effect, unless rectified with a grovelling apology and a bit of feet kissing makes you a big fat LIAR!
It doesn’t.
Now, stop playing dumb, and retract the accusation.
>>Now, stop playing dumb, and retract the accusation.<<
How dare you call be dumb, ya big fat lying dumbo!
Willow
Wrong again and as usual
Democracy is a participation sport if you don’t vote then you aren’t playing and you arent on the team, you are just another spectator in the stands and your name doesn’t go on the team roster.
Perhaps sports analogies will work on you
Retract the accusation, Prince.
Steve
‘It doesnt matter if your name is on the roles if you don’t vote you arent part of the electorate’
Maybe in ‘Steve-World’, but in the real world your definition of electorate is just plain wrong.
From Wikipedia
Electorate may refer to:
* A constituency, the group of people entitled to vote in an election.
* An electoral district, the geographic area of a particular election.
* The dominion of an Elector in the Holy Roman Empire.
From Collins
‘all the people in an area or country who have the right to vote in an election’
Princeton Wordnet
‘the body of enfranchised citizens; those qualified to vote’