The Problem with Mary (and conventions)
Sometimes in Northern Ireland there is a tendency to suggest that because the other lot do something therefore we should not do it. This is a common problem in sport and even the arts and music. I would suggest, however, that this problem is also present in religion.
I thought I might, this week, be permitted to make some comment on religion without too many complaints, it is after all part of our culture and even the non religious may recognise that this week has a certain resonance with Christians.
I thought I would talk about Mary (as in the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, not the woman currently President of the RoI). I have no idea how many sermons I have heard. I certainly hear at least one a week (the evening service is difficult to get to because of the children). Also sometimes we go to the Bangor or Portstewart convention or other missions. As such I have heard a lot. Sermons frequently talk about a biblical character, sometimes quite an obscure one. My former minister at home based a sermon on Enoch; with only two verses, Genesis 5 22 and 24 being very relevant to Enoch’s character etc. There was in fairness not that much to go on but it was an excellent sermon.
As an educative aside for the uninitiated: Bangor (at Easter) and Portstewart (in the summer) conventions are events where lots of dour looking fundamentalist Prods all go to religious meetings for a week and hear lots of preaching. In Portstewart this is held in a tent which always adds greatly to generalised dourness. Then they go down to Morelli’s and buy ice cream (except the mean ones like me who do not). The dangerous liberals buy ice cream on Sunday’s as well. Bangor is much the same except they use a Presbyterian Church instead and the overall ambiance is sometimes distressingly less dour in my experience though my father in law (not a man given to wild jollity) was very fond of Bangor convention and I have this very evening been agitating at Elenwe that we should go sometime over the weekend.
Back to Mary; I have never once heard a sermon about Mary. Now just in case anyone misunderstands, fundamentalist Protestants also believe in the Virgin birth. We just do not seem to honour her in the way we do other great Christians. I personally suspect this is incorrect. I would, I submit have significant support for this, Mary is called “Blessed” by an angel after all.
Luke 1:28 “And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.”
There are also lots of references to her throughout the New Testament. As such there is plenty to base a sermon on. However, going back to my previous comments there is of course a huge problem. The RCs like her. Could there be a little bit of us which does not talk about her because the RCs do? If so that is a pretty rubbish reason. We do not accept her as Queen of Heaven nor her bodily assumption but I suggest that we could give her a lot more honour with becoming ecumenists. After all Dr. Paisley always preaches about St. Patrick on the Sunday closest to St. Patrick’s day and whatever my views on his politics I do not think he has become ecumenical. So how about it, if any fundamentalist preachers are reading: How about a bit of rehabilitation for Mary, How about a sermon on Mary? You could have one at one of the conventions this year.
“Yes, I do read a lot of their gobbleydegook, because it pains me to see Rome feeding a daily diet of lies and deceit to my friends who happen to be RC’s.”
Hey, but what about the “Good Book” itself, the source of your Christian faith. Is that not a book of outstanding contradictions, misinformation, historical inaccuracies, etc… in other words, lies.
So you believe in a book of lies? Your faith is based on a book of lies?
Why do you base your beliefs on that which cannot be proved?… and don’t tell me your reward lies in heaven!
[i]“Hey, but what about the “Good Book” itself, the source of your Christian faith. Is that not a book of outstanding contradictions, misinformation, historical inaccuracies, etc… in other words, lies.[/i]
you only see contradictions because you’re not understanding it correctly. Many people, even biblical scholars have taken the wrong meaning or understanding from certain sections of the bible which may be harder to understand.
[i]So you believe in a book of lies? Your faith is based on a book of lies?
Why do you base your beliefs on that which cannot be proved?… and don’t tell me your reward lies in heaven!”[/i]
Prove it’s a book of lies! Show me a passage which is a lie
”you only see contradictions because you’re not understanding it correctly. Many people, even biblical scholars have taken the wrong meaning or understanding from certain sections of the bible which may be harder to understand.”
For goodness sake UMH, don’t you know anything about the origins of the bible? It didn’t just drop out of the sky one bright morning.
It’s basically 66 ancient books chosen, edited and stuck together by a bunch of dubious ‘theologians’ in the fourth century.
Many of those books can’t be authored or even dated accurately.
A lot of stuff was left out which these guys didn’t think ‘fitted’ with their notion of Christianity.
In even the most broad-minded court of law, the whole thing would be ruled inadmissable as evidence due to it’s highly dubious origins.
And the really sad thing is that people like you are trying to tell us there are no contradictions in a volume which in itself is a complete contradiction.
Some food for thought!
Here, look up this site and read it all ….
http://www.bandoli.no/
show me whats wrong….
The world was formed in 6 days and the world is only 10`000 years old…
the human race came from the loins of adam and eve…inbreeding!
no mention of dinosaurs…
the list is endless..
and which version of the bible are you talking about!!!
Now, now, lads. Surely you must know that it is up to the athiest to prove there is no God rather than the believer to prove there is one *rolls eyes*
I’ll plug this again…
Hey ‘Ulsters my homeland’…ever feel manipulated?
Look at all of this too pleeze, and think!
zeitgeistmovie.com
Don`t think the existence of God is in question here….
its the credibility and reliability of the bible as a factual account…
but its all down to belief just as is the case with Marion worship…
But what I laugh at, are those who presume to know the mind of the all powerful creator, God, and try and lecture and force their beliefs or their interpretations of events down the throats of others..
“[i]For goodness sake UMH, don’t you know anything about the origins of the bible? It didn’t just drop out of the sky one bright morning.[/i]”
and who said it did?
[i]“It’s basically 66 ancient books chosen, edited and stuck together by a bunch of dubious ‘theologians’ in the fourth century.”[/i]
Wrong, the OT was compiled when Jesus was living, Jesus himself makes reference to it. “It is written”, (Matthew 4:1-4) refers to the Old Testament canon. There are 34 books of the Old Testament Books quoted in the NT, Jesus quoted from 24 of them. In 90 AD, at the council of Jamnia there was a gathering of Jewish leaders, but their only discussion was concerning the books of Ecclesiastes and the Song of Solomon, not to compile the entire OT canon. It was already compiled.
As for the NT, by 100AD, all 27 books of the New Testament were in use and all but Hebrews, 2 Peter, James, 2 Jn, 3 Jn, Revelation were universally accepted. These books were still being used in churches throughout the world from 100 AD, even although they hadn’t been declared by Rome as their official biblical Canon.
[i]“Many of those books can’t be authored or even dated accurately.”[/i]
They still teach about Christianity and salvation. They’re message was never meant to be about the author or the day, hour or month they were wrote.
[i]A lot of stuff was left out which these guys didn’t think ‘fitted’ with their notion of Christianity.”[/i]
I agree, mostly gnostic writings and texts from the Samaritan bible, which is a corrupted version of the Jewish OT. It got corrupted when the Samaritans were living in Babylon. As for the early church disgarded writings, they were left out because they were not inspired or were not in agreement with the Jewish OT. 1 Thes.5v21 “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”
“[i]And the really sad thing is that people like you are trying to tell us there are no contradictions in a volume which in itself is a complete contradiction.”[/i]
Gerry lvs Castro, Give me a bible contradiction? book, chapter and verse!
Gréagóir O’ Frainclín, give us a contradiction or a verse of the bible from that link which you believe is a lie. I can’t respond to a whole link.
The bible doesn’t mention dinosaurs because the word dinosaur was only a word that came about in the last 200 years,it is taken from greek meaning terrible lizard.that’s like saying shakespeare did not use the term laptop computer.The bible does make reference to some strange creatures though,leviathan,behemoth who’s tail is as thick as a cedar tree,dragons,these may be just the old way of describing creatures that we now refer to as dinosaurs.
“Wrong, the OT was compiled when Jesus was living”
totally untrue.
And if you know you`re biblical history you will off course realise that the Catholic OT has three more books than the Protestant OT and that one of the Catholic books, Maccabbes is included in the Jewish OT along with other books around at the time of Jesus but in neither the catholic or protestan OT…
There is only 1 mention of behemoth in the whole bible and even Spurgeon agreed that it did not refer to dinosaurs..
[i]“The world was formed in 6 days[/i]
Twinbrook, if Scientists believe the universe was created in a millisecond, who can question God for creating the earth in 6 days?
anyhow, “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” (2Pet.3v8)
[i]“and the world is only 10`000 years old…”[/i]
No one knows the age of the earth. “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies” (1Tim.1v4)
[i]“the human race came from the loins of adam and eve…inbreeding!”[/i]
What’s so strange about that? Many people have married their brother and sister, even the Irish.
[i]“no mention of dinosaurs… “[/i]
A dinosaur is a beast.
UMH — I can do better than give you a bible contradiction — here are 397 of them. Knock yourself out.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
As for the Old Testament being compiled when Jesus was living, I do think you need to brush up on your bible history.
“Wrong, the OT was compiled when Jesus was living”
“[i]totally untrue.”[/i]
what was Jesus referring to then if the OT wasn’t compiled?
The Old Testament books were gathered into one volume and were translated from Hebrew into Greek long before Christ came to earth. The Septuagint Version was translated by seventy scholars at Alexandria, Egypt around the year 227 B.C., and this was the version Christ and His apostles used.
“Gréagóir O’ Frainclín, give us a contradiction or a verse of the bible from that link which you believe is a lie. I can’t respond to a whole link.”
Here’s a few where the bible contradicts itself…..
JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Contradicts….
JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
Contradicts….
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.
PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Contradicts….
ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
Contradicts….
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
[i]“UMH—I can do better than give you a bible contradiction—here are 397 of them. Knock yourself out. [/i]”
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
Gerry lvs Castro, that’s a week effort giving me 397 so-called contradictions. Be a man and pick one out.
“No one knows the age of the earth.”
Carbon dating…
““Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies””
Just what you are implying yourself!
Whats wrong with inbreeding!! If we are to believe we all emanate from two people, two sets of genes, we would now be extinct because of the limited gene pool…
If dinosaur is a beast, does it not occur to you, that in all the numerous books of the OT, in the Jewish, Islamic and Christian traditions that someone, somewhere along the line would actually describe “beasts” so magnificent in size that they would be a sign of the greatness of God…
Also one line in the bible covers the Universe as an after thought..
“and God created the stars also”
does this mean that life on other planets doesn`t exist because they weren`t specifically mentioned in the bible?
“The Old Testament books were gathered into one volume”
Again you are wrong. ulster stop digging a hole!
The Jewish OT wasn`t fully written down until centuries after Jesus` death…..and it, just like the catholic OT, contain books not accepted or in the protestant OT!!!
A few more……
“And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” (2 Kings 2:11)
Contradicts…..
“No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, … the Son of Man.” (John 3:13)
The Death of Judas:
“And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself.” (Matt. 27:5)
Contradicts…..
“And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out.” (Acts 1:18)
Ps.92:12: “The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree.”
Contradicts….
Isa.57:1: “The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart.”
So this is the book that’s has been guided/written by the holy spirit? I don’t think so. It’s all really what you get from it yourself and what you want to believe!
Perhaps one the main reasons that Mary plays such a large part in Irish daily life is that without reference to her our use of our own unique English vernacular would be that much the poorer.
Thus when moved to express surprise or astonishment it is, “Jesus, Mary and Joseph”. When contemplating another’s pain, “Mary, mother of God” and when confronting horror, “Mother of Mercy!”.
In any case it is the figure of Mary as we see her depicted in the great paintings of the Renaissance and the iconography of the orthodox tradition that gentles Christianity, that, dare I say it, puts a human face to it, that makes faith palatable for rational humans for whom as Kierkegaard remarked, faith was an impossibility and those who proclaimed it merely self deluders.
It has always struck me that the iconoclastic fathers of the Reformation must have been such a nasty, curmudgeonly lot that they would deny to their flock the great beauty of human art rendered in the worship of God that had been, and remains, the glory of the Christian Church. Indeed it would be laughable were it not so tragic that there exists such a large body of thought so in denial that it could imagine that while the awkward translation of the Darby Bible was divinely inspired the glories of Michaelangelo and Raphael were not. They are to be pitied.
[i]“JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Contradicts….
JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.”[/i]
Gréagóir O’ Frainclín, understand this: Two siamese twins are born, one is bigger and more powerful than the other. This does not mean they are not joined as one.
“[i]EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
Contradicts….
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.”[/i]
The Lord hates evil, he loves his own! Context!
“[i]PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Contradicts….
ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.”[/i]
Two different contexts, Proverbs is about understanding the commandments and obtaining their wisdom, Ecclesiastes is about seeking earthly wisdom.
Context, Context, Context. When you’re looking for faults your blind to the answer.
How can you have a discussion without someone who takes the bible as literal truth and disregards all the evidence that counter that assumption…
because Ulster thats all it is, an assumption, your personal belief..
And if it is your belief, pray what are you doing here on Good Friday!
“Gréagóir O’ Frainclín, understand this: Two siamese twins are born, one is bigger and more powerful than the other. This does not mean they are not joined as one.”
But this is a rediculous metaphor, using siamese twins to explain the relationship between an “omnipotent” god and his only son.
Context, context, you cry…. vague answers for everything to justify your own vague convictions!
“[i]Carbon dating…”[/i]
lol, very accurate.
[i]“If we are to believe we all emanate from two people, two sets of genes, we would now be extinct because of the limited gene pool…[/i]
Personally I don’t care much about the idea we came from both Adam and Eve, I’m open to ideas that they were the only two people in the Garden of Eden and other forms of humanity were living outside it.
…as for our extinction, there could be the possibility that Adam and Eve were perfect and they held all the necessary DNA which gave life to us all.
“[i]If dinosaur is a beast, does it not occur to you, that in all the numerous books of the OT, in the Jewish, Islamic and Christian traditions that someone, somewhere along the line would actually describe “beasts” so magnificent in size that they would be a sign of the greatness of God…”[/i]
A blue whale is larger than the largest dinosaur, a whale was mentioned as swallowing Jonah, so it’s possible that dinosaurs played second fiddle to whales if it’s the size you’re worried about.
[i]“Also one line in the bible covers the Universe as an after thought..
“and God created the stars also””[/i]
Hardly evidence that they were made after he created the heaven.
[i]“does this mean that life on other planets doesn`t exist because they weren`t specifically mentioned in the bible? “[/i]
What does the bible say about life on other planets? does it say there is none?
don`t expect not answers from anyone who takes the bible literally…
all you will be fed are vague generalities, half-truths and any *hard* questions will be ignored..
Ulster…my bibles bigger than yours!!!!!
[i]“because Ulster thats all it is, an assumption, your personal belief..”[/i]
Very true Twinbrook. The bible is a book of faith. You believe it or you don’t. Simple really!
[i]“And if it is your belief, pray what are you doing here on Good Friday!”[/i]
his resurrection and salvation is more important than celebrating the day he died.
Gréagóir O’ Frainclín, Yes the siamese twins thing was a bit ridiculous, but if it’s possible on earth to explain how two things can be one, with one greater than the other, what makes it impossible to God?
as for the other so-called contradictions you mentioned, the context they were set in was gravely in error.
“Personally I don’t care much about the idea we came from both Adam and Eve, I’m open to ideas that they were the only two people in the Garden of Eden and other forms of humanity were living outside it.”
You are contradicting yourself and the bible, as it clearly says there where only 2 people in the Garden of Eden..
Surely if you question this basic belief and one the whole bible rests on, then your premise that there are no contradictions or even that the bible is literally true..falls to pieces.
“.as for our extinction, there could be the possibility that Adam and Eve were perfect and they held all the necessary DNA which gave life to us all.”
Again contrary to biblical belief. As the expulsion from the Garden of Eden signifies the Fall from Grace and Sin entering the world…hence from then on Man was an imperfect being in need of redemption..
“What does the bible say about life on other planets? does it say there is none?”
It doesn`t mention the worship of Mary either so you can`t have it both ways!
Still awaiting your evidence for the OT being all wrote down in Jesus` time and the differences between all the traditions when it comes to the OT and all the evidence out there that points to this…
Do you only believe what you want and only accept evidence when it pointedly fits in with your views!
“[i]don`t expect not answers from anyone who takes the bible literally…
all you will be fed are vague generalities, half-truths and any *hard* questions will be ignored..”[/i]
when are you going to start asking these *hard* questions?
[i]“Ulster…my bibles bigger than yours!!!!!”[/i]
It is too, it’s got a few extra books, which are a bit dodgy, lol
“A blue whale is larger than the largest dinosaur, a whale was mentioned as swallowing Jonah, so it’s possible that dinosaurs played second fiddle to whales if it’s the size you’re worried about”
What I find strange is that the largest land animals the world has ever seen don`t get the mention they deserve and not where in all traditions who use the OT is there even a hint about these huge creatures..
Thats what I find strange…
Yes its all about belief, thats what it comes down…
A PERSONAL BELIEF.
UMH: ”Gerry lvs Castro, that’s a week effort giving me 397 so-called contradictions. Be a man and pick one out.”
You don’t think the fact that 397 exist is just a tad worrying UMH?
The moment you regard the bible or any other manuscript as infallible, you leave yourself open to disaster. A sizeable portion of the Christian world (including the RC church) have been smart enough not to fall into that trap.
Whatever you may think, the books of the bible were written, translated, edited and compiled by fallible men. They are therefore going to contain errors and contradictions.
There are for instance two conflicting creation accounts (see number 11 of the 397) in the very first book of the bible.
The gospels are highly contradictory, particularly on the subject of the crucifixion and the resurrection. Hardly a surprise when you consider how long after the events they were written. You’d expect that from fallible human accounts — you wouldn’t expect it from a supposedly infallible ‘word of God’.
Subjects such as dinosaurs, a spherical earth, life on other planets etc aren’t mentioned in the bible, and for good reason. In biblical times, they were unknown concepts.
Others such as slavery, ‘demon’ possession and witchcraft were subjects taken for granted — nowadays these are accepted by the enlightened for what they were — primitive cruelty and nonsense.
Certainly you can put your own particular ‘spin’ on whichever part of the bible you fancy — I’ve even seen it done for the verses of Nostradamus, but the bible is no more ‘infallible’ than ‘The Hitch-Hikers Guide To The Galaxy’ and was never intended to be.
Did Jesus ever mention that someone should write down his life story and use it in the act of worship? No he didn’t.
As a historical account of the lives and thoughts of the ancients, the bible is mildly interesting, as the infallible word of an all-knowing God, it’s mighty unimpressive.
so much for the good friday agreement
[i]“You are contradicting yourself and the bible, as it clearly says there where only 2 people in the Garden of Eden.. “[/i]
and who said there wasn’t? [re-read my post]
“.as for our extinction, there could be the possibility that Adam and Eve were perfect and they held all the necessary DNA which gave life to us all.”
“[i]Again contrary to biblical belief. Again contrary to biblical belief. As the expulsion from the Garden of Eden signifies the Fall from Grace and Sin entering the world…hence from then on Man was an imperfect being in need of redemption.. [/i]
and what has their fall from grace (spiritual) got to do with them making us extinct. You said and I quote, “If we are to believe we all emanate from two people, two sets of genes, we would now be extinct because of the limited gene pool…” What makes you think Adam and Eve’s gene pool would make us extinct?
“What does the bible say about life on other planets? does it say there is none?”
[i]“It doesn`t mention the worship of Mary either so you can`t have it both ways!”[/i]
How you can link the bible not mentioning the worship of Mary in with life on other planets is beyond me. The bible says you shouldn’t worship idols, if you’re comparison was to make any sense, they bible would have to say they isn’t life on other planets. Totally lost with that comparison Twinbrook.
[i]“Still awaiting your evidence for the OT being all wrote down in Jesus` time and the differences between all the traditions when it comes to the OT and all the evidence out there that points to this…”[/i]
The Septuagint Version, translated by seventy scholars at Alexandria, Egypt around the year 227 B.C.,
[i]“Do you only believe what you want and only accept evidence when it pointedly fits in with your views!”[/i]
Show me some evidence, you have just assumed things. You’re are assuming there are contradictions, assuming man would become extinct because you assume Adam and Eve’s descendants would die out. You’re assuming there was no dinosaurs because they were’nt accurately described in the bible, just like the dandylong legs or the ladybird. You’re assuming the bible said the stars were an after thought of God
You place as much faith on the bible being wrong than I do on it being scriptural. Admit it, Twinbrook the bible is a book of faith, even to those who have faith that it’s wrong. It can’t be proved wrong or can’t be proved right!
[i]“The moment you regard the bible or any other manuscript as infallible, you leave yourself open to disaster. A sizeable portion of the Christian world (including the RC church) have been smart enough not to fall into that trap.
Whatever you may think, the books of the bible were written, translated, edited and compiled by fallible men. They are therefore going to contain errors and contradictions.”[i]
So you think.
Deut 4:2 “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.”
John 5:47 “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Prov 13:13 “He who despises the word will be destroyed, but he who fears the commandment will be rewarded.”
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jer 8:9,11 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken. Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD; so what wisdom do they have?
11 For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of My people slightly, saying, ‘Peace, peace!’ When there is no peace.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John 14:23 If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words…
Luke 11:28 “blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
John 15:7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
Col 3:16-17 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
2 Tim 3:15 “and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
1 Pet 1:25 “But the word of the Lord endures forever. Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.”
2 Tim 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
——————————————-
“[i]There are for instance two conflicting creation accounts (see number 11 of the 397) in the very first book of the bible.”[/i]
Looked at that before. The answer is always out there. Here’s my best understanding of why it seems as if there are 2 different accounts. When Moses compiled Genesis he was using a compilation of old scripture and Genesis 2v5 is the beginning of Adam’s account of the creation.
http://www.british-israel.ca/Genesis.htm
[i]“The gospels are highly contradictory, particularly on the subject of the crucifixion and the resurrection. Hardly a surprise when you consider how long after the events they were written. You’d expect that from fallible human accounts—you wouldn’t expect it from a supposedly infallible ‘word of God’.”[/i]
give us an example of one Gospel contradiction
[i]“Did Jesus ever mention that someone should write down his life story and use it in the act of worship? No he didn’t.”[/i]
Yes he did, Matt 28 v 18-20
“and what has their fall from grace (spiritual) got to do with them making us extinct”
Are you serious!!!
It wasn`t just a spiritual fall from grace if you as you say you do take the Bible as literal truth then you would know that sin, sickness, hardship and death followed that fall and such the limited gene pool of both adam and eve had become corrupted!
Apart from that read any scientific journal and you will see that it is virtually impossible if possible at all for the Human Race to have evolved from two people…
“Personally I don’t care much about the idea we came from both Adam and Eve, I’m open to ideas that they were the only two people in the Garden of Eden and other forms of humanity were living outside it.”
your own words..you have questioned the bible which clearly says there was no human life outside the garden, so do you disbelieve that!
You keep mentioning the The Septuagint Version, did you google it?
Are you aware that there are older books of the OT which are contained in the Jewish OT which didn`t fit in with the earlier church’s teaching and where removed?”
“You place as much faith on the bible being wrong than I do on it being scriptural”
I don`t place anything on faith, facts plain facts and the facts about the OT are out there…
You have totally fudged,conveniently ignored or are unable to coherently trace anything regarding the OT..
If you as you have already admitted, question the Eden story then the foundation on which you are trying to lay your “faith” collapses..
Now the bible uses a genealogy from adam and eve and no-where does it mention that there where any other people outside the garden…
So if you are open to assume that theres a possibility that the eden story is either incorrect or wrong where does that leave all the other answered questions which have already been pointed out to you?
Is there a possibility that other parts of the bible are wrong?
Rory: large body of thought so in denial that it could imagine that while the awkward translation of the Darby Bible was divinely inspired the glories of Michaelangelo and Raphael were not. They are to be pitied.
Interesting worldview. Perhaps you could amplify on a couple of points?
Are all the best works of art divinely inspired, or can some works of human creativity and imagination beat some works that are divinely inspired?
Are you really basing your religious beliefs on Raphael’s “Coronation of the Virgin”? (Which covers the Assumption, but not Intercession or the Immaculate Conception, anyway).
OK then. My choice is “The woman with the Unicorn”. Obviously divinely inspired (because I say so!) and it’s allegorical, of course, because the unicorn is neither invisible, nor pink:
http://www.invisiblepinkunicorn.com/
Ulster, are you really trying to push that british israel nonsense?
Its totally and utterly discredited and not accepted by mainstream or born again Christians…
have you forgot that they teach that ulster protestants are one of the lost tribes of Israel?
That, Jews are not the REAL Israel?
That, they don`t believe in the trinity?
All very interesting …No reply from Turgon as yet. Maybe I will look up the Good Book in search of…thou shall not blog on Good Friday
( Only jesting..This is quite a good one Mr T )
If you want a blog about British Isrealism I will attempt to oblige either over the holiday or sometime shortly afterwards.
I was commenting in relation to this thread in general and not in relation to twinbrooks post…just in case of any confusion
Or anything by U.M.H for that matter !!!
“If you want a blog about British Isrealism I will attempt to oblige either over the holiday or sometime shortly afterwards”
Isrealism? Is that a kind of post-modernist painting?
“[i]It wasn`t just a spiritual fall from grace if you as you say you do take the Bible as literal truth then you would know that sin, sickness, hardship and death followed that fall and such the limited gene pool of both adam and eve had become corrupted!
Apart from that read any scientific journal and you will see that it is virtually impossible if possible at all for the Human Race to have evolved from two people…”[/i]
and explain again how this brings you to the conclusion of human extinction? I gave you 2 possible theories, you base your arguments against the first one by presuming Adam and Eve didn’t possess the genetic makeup to be our only descendants. You can’t possibly know that the human race would have become extinct, if you have no evidence to Adam and Eve’s genetic makeup.
“[i]Now the bible uses a genealogy from adam and eve and no-where does it mention that there where any other people outside the garden…
So if you are open to assume that theres a possibility that the eden story is either incorrect or wrong where does that leave all the other answered questions which have already been pointed out to you?”[/i]
You aren’t able to prove the first theory wrong and now you claim the second theory is wrong because the Eden story does not mention specifically that there were other humans outside of Eden. You’re the one who seems to be holding onto a traditionalist view of the Eden story, when another theory could be possible without it becoming blasphemous.
Read Genesis chapter 4 and it becomes possible for that theory to coexist with the bible. The problem you have is that you hold onto a traditionalist view and then you claim the bible is wrong when that view doesn’t fit. Sometimes people just don’t have the ability to understand the meaning of scripture, they either misunderstand it or hold onto traditional viewpoints instead.
[i]“You keep mentioning the The Septuagint Version, did you google it?”[/i]
What’s that go to do with the issue? You said the OT wasn’t compiled when Jesus was living, the fact remains that it was, it was compiled in the Septuagint.
“[i]So if you are open to assume that theres a possibility that the eden story is either incorrect or wrong where does that leave all the other answered questions which have already been pointed out to you?
Is there a possibility that other parts of the bible are wrong?”[/i]
Twinbrook, get out of the mindset that the traditional view is always right, then you might just see that it’s a very openly composed book which man just can’t understand in all it’s fullness.
[i]“Ulster, are you really trying to push that british israel nonsense?”[/i]
Twinbrook, what has British Israelism got to do with the idea that Moses compiled eyewitness accounts into the book of Genesis, other than the fact the link is entitled ‘british-israel’? Just because someone links a BBC NEWS page does not mean they are British or even working for the BBC. The idea that Moses composed eyewitness accounts is not unique to the British Israelism movement.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c022.html
UMH: ‘Give us an example of one gospel contradiction’
Here’s three (concerning just the resurrection):
1. Who found the empty tomb?
a. According to Matthew 28:1, only “Mary Magdalene and the other Mary.”
b. According to Mark 16:1, “Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome.”
c. According to Luke 23:55, 24:1 and 24:10, “the women who had come with him out of Galilee.” Among these women were “Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James.” Luke indicates in verse 24:10 that there were at least two others.
d. According to John 20:1-4, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb alone, saw the stone removed, ran to find Peter, and returned to the tomb with Peter and another disciple.
2. Who did they find at the tomb?
a. According to Matthew 28:2-4, an angel of the Lord with an appearance like lightning was sitting on the stone that had been rolled away. Also present were the guards that Pilate had contributed. On the way back from the tomb the women meet Jesus (Matthew 28:9).
b. According to Mark 16:5, a young man in a white robe was sitting inside the tomb.
c. According to Luke 24:4, two men in dazzling apparel. It is not clear if the men were inside the tomb or outside of it.
d. According to John 20:4-14, Mary and Peter and the other disciple initially find just an empty tomb. Peter and the other disciple enter the tomb and find only the wrappings. Then Peter and the other disciple leave and Mary looks in the tomb to find two angels in white. After a short conversation with the angels, Mary turns around to find Jesus.
3. Who did the women tell about the empty tomb?
a. According to Mark 16:8, “they said nothing to anyone.”
b. According to Matthew 28:8, they “ran to report it to His disciples.”
c. According to Luke 24:9, “they reported these things to the eleven and to all the rest.”
d. According to John 20:18, Mary Magdalene announces to the disciples that she has seen the Lord.
”Did Jesus ever mention that someone should write down his life story and use it in the act of worship? No he didn’t.”
”Yes he did, Matt 28 v 18-20”
The verses you cite don’t mention anything about writing Jesus’ biography, much less them becoming miraculously infallible in the process.
Not many things in the bible are particularly unambiguous, but it’s pretty clear that Jesus was expecting to return and ‘establish his kingdom’ within the lifetime of his disciples. Therefore the writing of his life story was not considered necessary, particularly by the disciples, who waited 40+ years before doing so.
”When Moses compiled Genesis…”
It’s by no means certain that Moses actually compiled Genesis at all.
Just to clarify UMH, do you support the idea of British-Israelism?
Why are people even wasting their time arguing with UMH over the fekin bible. It’s akin to arguing about how big the cow was when he jumped over the moon. Those with a brain and can think for themselves [i]know[/i] it’s bollox. Those who need to refer to a 2,000 year old book to tell them what’s right and wrong and how to conduct themselves in modern society should be pitied, not scorned.
Is there anybody who will put their hand up and say ‘I worship Mary’ ?
I don’t know of anyone who does.