What is the future for Irish Nationalism today?
It’s probably true that the main flow of people and commercial traffic within and between these islands has been for some time on an east west, rather than a north/south axis. Dublin London and Belfast London account for substantially thicker traffic flows than Belfast Dublin. In a survey conducted a few years back 84% of people in the Republic had visited London, whereas only 50% had been to Northern Ireland. Fionnuala O’Connor gets to the heart of a rather awkward matter: despite the pretensions of nationalists north and south, the quality of cultural relations between the two parts of the island is poor (subs needed):
The two jurisdictions have much in common: they are also strange to each other. What are VHI and the Mahon tribunal to scratchily peaceful Northern Ireland? Who in the Republic can sympathise with northerners insisting RTÉ Radio One keeps its time-honoured wavelength? Alienation, that’s the word. But mutual, and lack of passion can be a good thing.
Wishful thinking is not going to mend the tear of partition:
The two cannot be made one without a cost that nobody wants to pay, even without consideration of revived, potentially murderous, loyalist reaction, even if the Tiger gets its stripy legs under it again. The GAA is the only unifying agency on the island, though a mystery to most northern Protestants – and a few Catholics, it must be said. It is the experience the Irish in the North have traditionally craved, the feeling of oneness with the separated brethren down the road, ever harder to sustain. Sentiment rarely trumps economic self-interest, and the sentiment has been fading for a long time.
And the last year delivered yet another sobering reality check for Republicans:
Sinn Féin’s gunk in last year’s Dáil election was the sharpest revelation of distance for them to date, the nastiest contrast with Northern success. It does not really matter that the contest between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael relegated the smaller parties. Effect was more important than causes. Republicans are still struggling with the death of the “transitional” dream, of gradual reunification via North/Southery with SF ministers on both sides of the table.
Unionists may not know what to make of modern “Ireland”, the name most use for the neighbouring state. But then Northern nationalism is equally at a loss – and what is Irish nationalism today?
The first was the delivery of the results of the 2001 Census, in which, as Henry McDonald so memorably put it at the time: “…the straight-talking statisticians at the census office metaphorically ripped off Santa’s beard last Thursday and exposed the ‘Count the Catholics’ theory as a fake.” Or as Graham Gudgin put it back then (December 2002), “Sooner or later, though, there will have to be a re-assessment.”
Tom McGurk was more sanguine: “Partition in everything except as a line on a map was thereby [the Belfast Agreement] ended. Importantly, this was not by territorial acquisition, but by the creation of a new political superstructure whose very purpose was to eliminate the crisis originally created by the territorial imperative.”
In truth, much attention in the intervening period has been taken up in the management of various crises, so that there seems to have been little time or space given, publicly at least, to the questions thrown up by the census figures, or the sense of drift that has continued between proponents of Northern Irish nationalism and their counterparts in the Republic. Even the much speculated upon (and always prospective) merger between Fianna Fail and the SDLP, one suspects, is not likely to offer, of itself, any kind of magical formula.
“Whats your solution then? Are you a (neo-)unionist?”
To the question, no. (Assuming that you mean the British union as opposed to the European one.)
I was a little quick in my comments so let me explain a little more. I share the same nationality/-ism and identity as you, but that is not the only dividing/unifying force in the universe. The “you’re-all-mad-up-there” reality of things, in the past at least, has had a very divisive effect. I can remember a feeling, maybe even whispered warnings, to stay away from anyone with a six-counties accent. “You never know who they are, or what they might involve you in.” That’s a very divisive force. It can mean that for a Irishman, he can have more in common with an Englishman – and why would he not? – than his northern compatriots. (The same applies for a northern Unionist, if not much more so. If he believe that he can look east across the water and find brethren that don’t see him as anything but an alien creature, he’s delusional.)
Is it always going to be this way? Not necessarily, and maybe it’s even fading as we speak. I’m starting to hear a lot more northern accents around Cork, were I live now, and around Mayo, where I’m from. It’s a positive and normalising thing. Only so long as “you’re-all-mad-up-there” will glazed looks follow you where ever you go.
Aside from that, the greatest dividing factor I’ve felt has been, I believe, from the practicalities of partition: education, finance, tax, health etc. In any discussion with a Northerner involving these, the discussion inevitably becomes one with a person from foreign country – albeit one with precisely the same slang words. And there is a ‘strange quality’ to many Northerners that I’ve met – even nationalists – where London is still the capital, the BBC is the ‘normal television’ channel and .co.uk isn’t a foreign domain name. They’re just little bits, and superficial, more taking-aback than anything else, that take no more than a day or two in a person’s company to get over, but they’re real none-the-less. Never mind a visit to Northern Ireland, where I, personally, am always very struck by the feeling of visiting another country – different road markers, urban planning, etc. – but again, things that very quickly pass when you see that the culture is identical (unlike on the other island where the culture is very similar, but not quite identical). At times these experiences have a slightly surreal element to them. Like a “virtual history”, where the question ism “What would Republic be like in 2008 had it not seceeded from the UK?” i.e. not a foreign country, just a parallel universe. Many of these are things, though, that I genuinely believe that a “home-grown” Northern Ireland system, especially one working in conjunction with the Republic, will iron out.
What does this mean for the constitutional future of Northern Ireland? Well, there’s no way in hell that a unitary Irish state can happen. We in the south simply aren’t in a position to properly govern the six counties. We don’t know the basics, and after almost a century of partition, I don’t think you’d like us to govern you. I’ve posted here before that I don’t believe in United Ireland as it is traditionally imagined. I do believe that a “united Ireland”, in some form, will come, mainly because I believe it to be the most sensible way of organising ourselves and is the will of the majority on this island (and the other island) – but when it does it will be a union of two parts, not least because that is simply the practical necessity.
—
“I said both are becoming more attractive than Irish Nationalism, especially to the Irish.”
European nationalism, sure, but British nationalism? Why would I suddenly “switch” to the nationalism of another European member state? Is it a fashion thing? Italy’s kind of trendy. Could I become an Italian nationalist?
“Well, its good you think this way, it helps get you into the Union.”
We are in the Union already.
“We can all become friends once Irish Nationalism in N.Ireland sees sense.”
Yes. It’s all their fault. Meanwhile, back in reality, I’ll continue having more in common with your fellow Britons than you.
Mick,
It still amazes me having left Tyrone and been living in London these last 18yrs the amount of English people i meet who upon hearing my accent express a wish to visit Ireland..for the first time.
Will Ryanair have to abandon the penny fares and actuaaly start paying people to travel?
Us exiles are the main driving force in the increasing numbers travelling between these islands. Our soccer team’s last tour to Coolmeen, County Clare would have been represented in these numbers. There were 3 native-born players, myself and two Corkmen. The majority of the rest of the team were second-generation Irish with parents from Donegal, Cavan, Armagh, Westmeath, Offaly, Mayo, Galway, Limerick, Clare, Wexford and Kilkenny.
This planeload could be used in statistics to show that links are strengthening between RoI and GB. It would also have shown links strengthening between NI and GB when said players travelled to Tyrone for my 30th also. My analysis details a different story, a sense of shared Irish identity.
‘The men who gave their lives for these Isles, the British Isles, the men who didn’t care if their comrade was an Hibernian or an Orangeman, the men who had no quarrels volunteering beside and Irishman, an Ulsterman, a Scotsman, Welsh or Englishman. They were all willing to fight for the British Isles when the call came. These men were real men, they were fighting for our freedom.’
Brave men of course . As indeed were their fellow men in France and Germany , Austria , Italy and Russia and Poland etc etc . Looking back from here we can now see and it pains to have to say this but these men died just to prolong the imperial ambitions of the ‘victorious’
nations for a few more decades . Their fight also led to another World War 20 years later . Altogether Europe lost approx 100 million people between both wars.
They may have thought they were fighting for ‘freedom’ . After 4 years in the trenches most of those who still survived no longer had any such illusion.
As the Iraq wars enters it’s 6th year Mr Bush is now saying his war has been worth it ?
Iraqi dead are estimated at anything between 150,000 to 600,000 with hndreds of thousands maimed, 4,000 American servicemen dead plus tens of thousands injured . 4 .5 million Iraqis have had to flee their homes of which 2 million have fled the country the others have been driven out by sectarian conflict and are elsewhere in Iraq. The cost to date is estimated as being 2 to 3 trillion dollars with no end in sight . Gas/Petrol prices are at an all time high meanwhile the American economy faces recession and millions of home foreclosures ?
But it was worth it ?
Going back to World War 1 . No it was’nt worth it . The men died because of their political leaders ‘stupidity’ and nothing else .
Just like the Iraq war and dare I say it just like what has happened in NI over the past 40 years and more .
Mick
Mitchell McLaughlin before the Census results (1Belfast Telegraph, 16th December, 2002):
“I believe that the census will confirm the pro-union population is shrinking to the extent that for the first time it will represent less than 50%
He was confusing two things. The census does not measure political affiliation. But elections do, and in several recent elections the ‘pro-union’ proportion has fallen below 50%, and this is happening more frequently. Unionism is no longer ‘the majority’ but rather a plurality.
[i]I accept that unionists want to remain in the UK, but they have to accept that nationalists don’t, and the latter will probably win in the end, via a headcount if necessary.[/i]
but you’re assuming the republic will be the same as you in the North.
[i]I cannot say if unionists will enjoy the republic when they get there, but I suspect their children and grandchildren will. Look at the grandchildren of the pre-independence southern unionists![/i]
you need to look hard into the issues effecting life during those periods.
[i]As for not not trying to annoy the taigs, I think you’re having a laugh there. Unionists are trying hard to annoy the taigs. But thats OK, because it keeps reminding us why we need to end the union! [/i]
whatever you think, but remember this, when you decide to rule this island without the say of us Unionists you will once again become Nazis.
UMH
Am I missing something here, because all I’m getting is random man playing. You clearly said:
British and European nationalism are both becoming more attractive today than ever before
We can get rid of the and focus on a single statement, as truth of the entire statement depends on the truth of its parts.
British nationalism is both becoming more attractive today than ever before
“British nationalism” i.e. “Unionism”, as is discussed here.
So that statement is equivalent to
“British unionism is waxing”
I then pointed out electoral results suggest that is not the case. Which throws your criticism of Greenflag in an ironic light.
So, whatcha got then?
Posted by kensei
you’re an asshole Kensei. cheeerio!
‘If that force had have been replaced by a german one I dont honestly see it making alot of difference to Irish people. ‘
Sie wuerden jetzt Deutsch sprechen Herr Liathain und inzwishchen die Keltistche sprache wuerde nicht mer existieren
!
Politically Germany being a rising Imperial power would have been less ‘considerate’ to Irish nationalists and republicans than the British were in the 1920 ‘s . So perhaps Tommy Atkins did not lay his life down in vain after all . On balance though the First World War was a disaster for Europe and when historians in the 25 th century look back at the demise of European culture and civilisation in the world their starting point will probably be Aug 1914
UMH
… when you decide to rule this island without the say of us Unionists you will once again become Nazis.
It will only happen when nationalism outvotes unionism. The result will be democratic, not fascistic. I think you just broke Godwin’s Law, by the way.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law)
Greenflag,
I agree with you that there is a dialect such as Ulster Scots – but what we have now in NI is a manufactured culture and language, purportedly Ulster Protestantism’s equivalent to the Irish language and Culture and that’s why I stand over ‘manufactured’ as a description of Ulster Scots as we know it now.
There’s a gravitational pull between the two islands of course – and language has something to do with it. However there’s also a gravitational resistance and it will continue to be as long as the dominant island continues not to recognise the cultural integrity of this island. I can take or leave English soccer teams, High Street stores and the rest of it (what is the rest of it) – and as Ireland becomes more multicultural, I think the country will become more resistant to the virus of ‘British nationalist culture’.
Greenflag,
Do ye reckon, many renowned Celticists were of course Germans, they had a particular fascination.
‘whatever you think, but remember this, when you decide to rule this island without the say of us Unionists you will once again become Nazis. ‘
So you’ll accept a border referendum vote in which a majority vote for Union ?
Yes or No ?
And if not what are your options ?
BTW no rush to answer . By the time it becomes necessary you may no longer have any direct interest and neither will most of us if not all of us on this board !
Just enjoy the stagnant status quo . It could be worse .
Mick,
Does it then matter that the substantive aspects of economic policy is being driven hard by the DUP, and not by a nationalist minister?
But they aren’t. All substantive aspects of economic policy are being driven hard from London.
What power does the Assembly have to influence economic growth and tax revenues?
What influence does the Assembly have on the setting of interest rates, the size of the government deficit, labour market reforms, nationalisation measures etc?
What’s Northern Ireland’s credit rating? Does it even have one?
… when you decide to rule this island without the say of us Unionists you will once again become Nazis.
[i]It will only happen when nationalism outvotes unionism. The result will be democratic, not fascistic. [/i]
I disagree, Irish Nationalism is against the human rights of Unionists.
[i]I think you just broke Godwin’s Law, by the way[/i]
Uggh, fuck Godwin, it only helps disguise the Irish republic’s role in WW2, instead of exposing them as the Nazi lovers they were, ready to send poison gas across the border as mentioned in the Irish republic’s Dail.
Scum!
I suspect that Fionnuala is at her strongest when she suggests that sentiment is less powerful than economic realities. Does it then matter that the substantive aspects of economic policy is being driven hard by the DUP, and not by a nationalist minister?
I thought it was a mistake by SF not to take the enterprise ministry, but the key is the imperatives that any Minister will have to respond to.
I think those favour closer co-operation with the south and more financial devolution from Westminster, especially as Scotland is going in the same direction.
Paradoxically, it may be events in Britain that are most favourable to Irish nationalism.
Irish nationalism has nothing to be proud off, Irish identity is what they should cherish, well that’s if they’re wish.
Irish nationalism has nothing to be proud off, Irish identity is what they should cherish, well that’s if they’re wise.
Chekov,
“… the fissure between the north and the south is getting wider.”
How so? If anything, I would have thought opposite.
“The vast bulk of pre-independence southern unionists’ grandchildren are no longer in southern Ireland …”
LOL … oh, Jesus! … you actually believe this!?
—
Ulster my homeland,
“… when you decide to rule this island without the say of us Unionists you will once again become Nazis.”
Why did such a sensible (even wise and edifying) comment have to be spoilt (by) “once again”? May I rewrite it? I will.
“… but remember this, when you decide to rule this island without the say of us Unionists you will become Nazis.”
Well said, UMH. Wise words indeed.
I think Ulsters my homeland’s views add some credence to my view that we may end up with a 1 State = 2 statelet long term solution.
It is clear that a substantial number of unionists would never accept the result of a pro-united poll and would resort to political violence, the threat of which could well put a significant number of southern voters off the idea.
Few southern mothers would send their sons north to possible death even if the Irish state had any capacity whatsoever to deal with a heavy security situation.
PS, as Britan, Germany, France, Holland and Belgium were all imperialist counties does it make any sense to speak of their ‘liberty’? a concept they clearly rejected for Africa, India etc.
‘Do ye reckon, many renowned Celticists were of course Germans, they had a particular fascination.’
I’d forgotten them
But then they were academics and men of culture not imperial politicans and miltary on the grab as it were ! Who knows what would have happened had the Germans won WW1 ? The British Empire would have come to a earlier end . Australia , South Africa etc etc would have declared UDI’s . Some of the African colonies and protectorates would have passed into German hands ? Would the Germans have been daft enough to ‘annex’ India ?
On the plus side there would have been no Hitler and probably no Israel .
I’d better stop here for I’m beginnig to think that the right side may have lost World War 1
… when you decide to rule this island without the say of us Unionists you will once again become Nazis.
It will only happen when nationalism outvotes unionism. The result will be democratic, not fascistic.
I disagree, Irish Nationalism is against the human rights of Unionists.
I think you just broke Godwin’s Law, by the way
Uggh, fuck Godwin, it only helps disguise the Irish republic’s role in WW2, instead of exposing them as the Nazi lovers they were, ready to send poison gas across the border as mentioned in the Irish republic’s Dail.
Scum!
Posted by Ulsters my homeland on Mar 20, 2008 @ 04:12 PM
I think UMH has lost the run of himself, having been brought face to face with the fact that his political ideology is closer to the evil his forefathers were fighting against in the trenches.
Irish nationalism poses no threat to the human rights of Unionists unless he feels that it is the right of Unionists to deny others their right to cultural expression.
The only thing sent across the border by the Irish Republic in WW2 was fire brigades when the Luftwaffe bombed Belfast.
There is a huge amount of Northern unionists living and working here in Cork now. And guess what, I think they’re enjoying themselves aswell. One of my friends is even going out with a Ballymena lass, of, you know, the other side. Good God her parents must be livid. Thats a real case of make love not war.
Mark F.:”I think us nordies have to put the questions to oursleves, is it self determination or a united Ireland, perhaps they arent the same?”
Good question, and I think that Niall has a good point that a united ireland is simply not do-able by the Republic, but a two-state solution is possible. However for once we will have to look after ourselves instead of being slaves to London or Dublin.
Greenflag,
It is an interesting ‘what if’ but I will maintain my traditional thinking on it,
“we serve nethier king nor kaiser (cousins anyway!) but Ireland”.
[i]I think the country will become more resistant to the virus of ‘British nationalist culture’.[/i]
Posted by OILibhear Chromaill
What do you see as British nationalist culture?
Chekov,
The vast bulk of pre-independence southern unionists’ grandchildren are no longer in southern Ireland
I’m the grandchild of a southern unionist and am still here. So is pretty much the entire extended family, lording it up from leafy Griffith Ave in Dublin down to Dull and Dreary. In fact, I know of no one who left. We’re just not unionists so don’t do things like listen to the Queen’s Speech and join the British Army anymore so probably haven’t come up on your radar.
But thanks for your touching concern though. We know you northern unionists would have been there for us if we needed you.
would love to know why you classified British culture as a Virus?
Not all ‘southerners’ are the same. And never let it be forgotten that a very large majority of ‘southerners’ remain in favour of a united Ireland. I am amazed at the attitude that there has been a cultural disconnect between the north and south. The statistic is that 50% of people from the republic have visited NI. To me that is a massive number. Dare it be compared to the percentage from the ‘real’ uk (Scotland, Wales and England) who have visited NI? Has anyone got stats for this? I know when I was in England, it seemed that visiting the black hole of Calcutta would have been preferred! Furthermore, if there is a cultural disconnect, it has more to do with the shameful back-turning of the south on their northern kinsmen. Amazing that such cowardice should be compounded by now saying ‘we f**cked yes over, you are now different because of it, so now we don’t want ya.’ Jeez, we stood idly by, now some don’t want to know at all. Thank God, as I say, that’s not true for all people from the Republic.
“How so? If anything, I would have thought opposite.”
Have you not read the original blog?
“LOL … oh, Jesus! … you actually believe this!?”
I am not making a contentious point. The protestant population of the Republic of Ireland fell from over 310,000 to less than half that between 1911 and the 2nd WW. That is contemporaneously with the rise of Irish republicanism and the establishment of the Free State. That is not in dispute! The greatest peace-time movement of population in early 20th century Europe.
UMH
you’re an asshole Kensei. cheeerio!
I know. I’d still like to see man playing rules enforced, since I was censored for much, much less yesterday.
Mick
I think SF should have taken one of the economic ministries, particularly with their ambition in the South, but there might be a perverse logic to it. They know that they will have to cut the public sector, both because of the financial imperatives from London and the need to get in sync with the Republic, but don’t want to take the rap, and they know the DUP’s instincts are rightward anyway.
“I’m the grandchild of a southern unionist and am still here”
I’m the grandchild of a southern unionist and I am not still there.
Hey George, I’m married to one of your “kind” and we have a great time down here in the south, well the south-west really. And to the horror of probably her northern breathern my wife I feel is more Irish than I am, certainly more strong-willed and opposed to outside involvement in Irish affairs.
[i]“I think UMH has lost the run of himself, having been brought face to face with the fact that his political ideology is closer to the evil his forefathers were fighting against in the trenches.”[/i]
Nonscence, the forefathers my people were fighting for did not think of gasing the republic of Ireland because they sided with the Nazi’s. There is no comparison to be made. The republic of Ireland had people within its ranks who were prepared to kill unionists if the Germans asked.
George, we must have missed you. If you could just round up the extended family, we’ll be over to you and have you in the cattle trucks and on your way to the gas chambers in a jiffy. Sorry for not getting around to you – it must have been a clerical error.
UMH, tis a pity that you weren’t on this side of the border after partition, because I bet you today that you wouldn’t be verging on a choronory. Lighten up man.
Gasing Northern Ireland?
Are you fucken delerious man? What propaganda bullshit story did you read.
The Nazi’s had time to blend into us, I wonder if it’s poissible that some-one from Ireland is willing to join up.
UMH – have you a bottle of Buckfast on the go? Just a friendly enquiry.
The Nazi’s had time to blend into us, I wonder if it’s poissible that some-one from Ireland is willing to join up.
It’s clear that the drugs aren’t working UMH.
Ulsters My Homeland,
Having read your posts mate, I’m sorry but there is a huge disconnect between modern Ireland, and the modern UK in how you approach this whole debate.
It is a thread about the future of northern nationalism in which you start just saying nationalism is collapsing, then get to nationalism being equated to something nazi-esque and getting into the story of the anti home rule lobby post 1921.
As I tried to reply earlier I don’t see nationalism or unionism collapsing, rather evolving in a way to take account for the change in circumstances in the North, the rest of these islands and beyond.
Modern nationalism in my view will not be a simplistic Irish state for Irish people and indeed I never considered that to be the case. A lot has been done and said that may make you fear this, indeed many take pleasure in scaring/deliberately baiting the life out of guys like you on boards like this by stating there will be some green and glorious ascendancy of an Irish government over the whole island.
You bring up the second world war but while those sacrifices were incredible, in a mature and modern Europe the fact that you see those as a major issue in a thread about the future of northern nationalism is indicative of just how out there you are.
I’m not sure you are representative of unionism, indeed I am representative of just myself, but I fear that your narrow view put forward with such conviction is indicative of why Northern Nationalism may have to carry more than it’s share of the burden in carrying our people to modernity.
Re: UMH & his succient, lucid “posts”…
I think the moral of the story here is, “don’t feed the trolls”.
I’m off to find ‘the gas-mask that my father wore’…
Yours from the Utopian South,
ANO
Checkov,
“I am not making a contentious point. The protestant population of the Republic of Ireland fell from over 310,000 to less than half that between 1911 and the 2nd WW. That is contemporaneously with the rise of Irish republicanism and the establishment of the Free State. That is not in dispute! The greatest peace-time movement of population in early 20th century Europe.”
I think you are being a little simplistic in your analysis there Chekov so therefore contentious.
For example, the greatest decline in the Protestant population as a % 1861-1991 occurred in Dublin where it dropped from 27% to just 3% but I don’t know of any concerted efforts at intimidation of of Protestant houses being burned out in Dublin during the War of Independence or Civil War.
Meanwhile in Belfast, a quarter of its Catholics were forced from their homes in this period but their numbers have actually increased as a percentage. So what gives?
Obviously the biggest killer of southern Irish Protestants between 1911 and WWII was in fact World War I and not Irish Republicanism.
But I would be most interested in knowing how many of Dublin’s Protestant families left Ireland and how are still there but their families stopped being Protestant because of Ne Temere in particular.
[i]Ulsters My Homeland,
Having read your posts mate, I’m sorry but there is a huge disconnect between modern Ireland, and the modern UK in how you approach this whole debate.[/i]
Niall, modern Ireland has moved on, but it still hasn’t appoligised about the discussion in the Dail about the use of German gas into N.Ireland if the wind was right.
The Irish government were considering killing us all in N.Ireland. They were talking about using German gas to knock us out if the wind would be kind to them. Fortunately God didn’t allow the wind and they had to put the idea OFF
And who flirted more with pre-war Nazism than the extended Saxe-Coburg-Gotha family? After all, blood is thicker than water and they encouraged us Irish to join in. Of course some mugs encouraged by the SDLP . sorry Redmondites did just that.
Pancho’s Horse, how does the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha family compare with the Irish idea of poisoning N.Ireland with Nazi gas?
Two points UMH
It would have been the Free State Government and all us Taigs would have been gassed as well. How stupider can you get?
Pancho’s Horse,
Yes, the Free state government would have been gassed, because the weather changed direction the night the evil plan was to take place. Thank the lord!
UMH, lie off the Bo.And Ulster’s MY homeland you’re just a blow in.
‘whatever you think, but remember this, when you decide to rule this island without the say of us Unionists you will once again become Nazis.’
I must have missed a history lesson, I had no idea Hitler had set up part of the Reich in Ireland and forced all the kids to join a branch of his Hitler youth. where were the meetings held UMH, under the Dail? or up at Aras? you accuse nationalists of nazism if they wish to ‘rule’ Ireland without Unionist consent. well what exactly can unionism be accused of then in its refusal to acknowledge and accept the democratic will of the irish people by opposing homerule, and using what little sway they unfortunately held in westminister at the time to demand their own little sectarian statelet? while im not his biggest fan, i believe Tim Pat Coogan hit the nail on the head when he referred to the northern statelet as ‘this relic of a retreating colonial glacier’. now really who wants to be seen as a relic?
Are Catholics all Nationalists? It seems many assume this, even Mitchell McLauchlin, who should know better, but we can never know this for certain.
One aid is Nicholas Whyte’s excellent website:-
(http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/), where he supplies for each of the 18 NI constituencies the census figures for the “Community Catholics” and the votes for the various parties. From this we can clearly see that the Nationalist vote normally comes within one or two percentage points of the calculated Community Catholic percentage of the population. So the presence of Catholics usually corresponds to a comparable presence of Nationalists.
One (obviously Unionist) poster on this site has suggested that Catholics are treacherously voting in greater numbers than Protestants and this is the reason for their success to date, but Whyte’s statistics do not support this view.
The closest to an exception is North Down, where 11.68% are found to be Community Catholic, and the combined SF and SDLP vote in 2007 was only 4.9%. But we must bear in might that this was only the 1st preference vote, and a lot of those who gave their 1st pref to the Green or Alliance parties might turn out to be transferring to the SDLP and even SF further down.
This probably means that in places where there is no conceivable possibility of a Nationalist winning a seat, many Catholics vote first for some other candidate, usually Alliance and more recently Green. However, we should bear in mind that in North Antrim the once promising Alliance vote has dwindled away to nothing and the SF vote has shot up since the introduction of the 6 member constituency, so it may be that when a nationalist member becomes a electoral possibility, the Catholic electorate will change its allegiance. This could be why the Nationalist vote is impressively high at European Parliament elections, where the voting is province wide.
As for Mitchell McLaughlin and the 2001 census, it would appear he did not know how to read it right. What it showed was a massive Protestant majority among the over-80s, the retired population, even the over 50s, but a Catholic majority among the under 30s. Presumably his party colleagues eventually set to work on the stats and came up with the date when youth will outnumber age, and found that it was 2016, which seems very plausible.
We were not created by almighty God as Unionists and Nationalists, Catholics and Protestants, these are just party divisions which have assumed a disproportionate importance because of the political situation. Once the Unionist bandwaggon has nothing more to deliver, huge numbers will be desperate to jump off it.
In my lifetime I have seen great changes in the Outer Hebrides, where Protestant and Catholic relations were once as dire as they are in the 6 cos. Now, with the population of the Southern Isles coming to Stornoway to study and be apprentices, the whole of that town is turned into a huge drink-fuelled non-sectarian orgy every Friday night.
The future for Irish Nationalism is thus the forging of the Irish Nation by a process of fervoured interbreeding. Make love not war, etc. Those who cannot take this Lundyite love-in may try exiting to Britain, but they will probably find that things are even worse there. Perhaps, in the atmosphere of a Celtic v Rangers match, they might be reminded of the life they grew up with, but this should only reinforce the view that the division of Ireland into two is a species of soccer hooliganism which has spread into politics.
RE: POISON GAS
This seems to refer to a single intemporate remark by Martin Corry:-
http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0071/D.0071.193804290003.html
However we must bear in mind that he was a one-man band, and that the executive of the British Empire was quite happy to bomb the Kurds for not paying taxes at around this time, not just one back-bencher.