Gerry Must Go
So sez Squinter, 20 years on, Gerry must face the truth:
“Adams has been the West Belfast MP for 20 years.
If a week is a long time in politics, then 20 years is the Upper Paleolithic Age. It is in that same 20-year period that the slow, steady decline into chaos in certain parts of West Belfast began, and it was on his watch that it has gathered pace to become the runaway train that it is today.
…there are many people and many agencies to blame for the state of the lower Falls … But while Adams can and does point the finger at some or even all of the above, Squinter has to say that he has never heard Adams accepting any responsibility for the fact that large parts of his constituency are no-go areas …
Who’s to blame for the failure to press home the Harry Holland momentum? Gerry Adams is to blame, that’s who.
Gerry Adams is the MP, has been for 20 years. He’s supposed to know how to marshal and direct; he’s supposed to give us the ideas and the leadership; he’s supposed to make things better. When he asks for and gets our votes he accepts a host of very onerous responsibilities, and the most basic of those responsibilities is to make his constituency a good place for decent people to live and for parents to bring up their families. In that he has failed terribly.”
“It wasn’t as if Adams didn’t have the clout and the contacts. A former aide of Tony Blair has been making frankly embarrassing revelations in a new book about how close Adams and Blair were. Adams was the Oprah Winfrey of Irish-America. And what did we get? InBev gone and Visteon going. A huge investment conference that holds its nose as it swishes past West Belfast ferrying ministers and Invest NI suits to Hillsborough and Cultra. Adams might have got away with pointing to the lack of investment in his constituency in 1983 and saying: “Nothing to do with me, mate.” 20 years on and you’d buy a house in Ross Street quicker than you’d buy that.
20 years. Two decades. Four parliamentary terms. Four US Presidents. Two Popes. 11 Secretaries of State. Five UN Secretary-Generals. Five Taoisigh. Five Prime Ministers. In Ross Street the wind of change blows in empty Budweiser boxes and despair; it blows out good people and hope.”
Orangefellah,
“When you vote for unsavoury characters then don’t be surprised when they seem oblivious or passé to the odd mugging or car-jacking when it happens in your area.”
Perhaps a fair point – but only if you apply the same logic to those who vote for the Labour and Tory parties who have waged a war in Iraq ( probably for party political reasons ) which has wreaked havoc on an entire region.
Without the devolution of peace and justice the legacy of British/Unionist misrule particulalry in Nationalist areas will continue to a factor in any law and order debate.
Gum
you will never solve this problem by tougher sentences alone, what will happen is the current generation of young thugs, within the blink of an eye will be replaced by the next, the reason 14 and 15 year olds are shooting each other on London estates is because the police have put their older brothers in jail. In some way this has made the problem worse as the younger boys are even more reckless.
Lets cross the pond to the USA, a country now locks up millions of young men, yet still the problems of anti social behavior remains. For those who are working class I tell you bluntly by supporting the lock them up throw away the key and give them a good kicking mentality, you will be bringing hell down upon your own heads. For it will be your sons who will be targeted whether guilty or not. As the black WC community in the USA has learnt to its cost. [take my word I am not a bleeding heart liberal]
I am not talking about community groups who cover up their political allegiances to take the crowns shillings, but voluntary groups whose leader’s are elected by democratic mandate. You have what you have fine, it is not working so try something else.
It is also important to understand just what the problem is and the size of it, kids hanging around street corners may seem threatening to us old farts, but they are not always so. Whilst people who act in an anti social way need to be reminded of their manners and responsibilities or by told to fuck off.
One of the reason these communities have got into this state is because the republican movement has always been elitist and top down. I am not saying this as a criticism as needs must, but today is a different situation and it cannot be solved by looking to others to solve all of the communities problems, whether that is the state or republican muscle.
As to sweeping the streets, yes I would sweep the street out side my house and pick the rubbish up, indeed I have done so. But I also give hell to my MP and local councillor and if I have had to repeat the process I would not vote for them again. I found it works wonder if after clearing up the shit on the street you dump it in the garden of your local councilor or in in the town hall.
Finally it is about time these areas took responsibility for their children and asked those with power just why so many youngsters are being excluded from living a fulfilling live. There is a lot of cash floating around the north these days much of it comes from the tax payers of Ireland the UK and EU, perhaps it is time we all looked at where it is going and asked whether the middle class streets are going unswept and if not looked at the reasons why.
I agree none of the above is easy, however the thing to remember is nor is living your life feeling threatened and unsafe.
Best regards
I see how man playing regarding Máirtín Ó Muilleoir is allowed to continue unabated and unmoderated yet again on SLUGGER. Another example of the rule being observed more in the breach than in the adherence.
Interesting to note something I’ve been saying for a while is finally beginning to show on radar. We all know no one really has clean hands heres but the big problem with SF is their incompetence. Catriona’s been demonstrating this for some time at Stormont and now we see ordinary voters looking round and saying “What do the shinners actually do for us?”
Garry and his mates are running to an outdated Marxist manifesto that would turn us into Cuba without the sunshine. Time that was highlighted more often rather than chasing the old ineffectual politics of orange and green. We live in a more sophisticated age and we need to respond to the change by moving towards more normal politics rather than the old tribal crap
MONEY NOT TAKEN UP
WB has the worst take up rate for Child Trust Fund in UK 50.4% even though there is posative discrimination with poor famalies geting £500 per child.Why is not just a problem for Adams but all in the area.
Sammy
[i]Without the devolution of peace and justice the legacy of British/Unionist misrule particulalry in Nationalist areas will continue to a factor in any law and order debate.[/i]
Would that be true in Unionist areas too? Or is it just a freakish coincidence that the Shankill, Northern Ireland’s most deprived council ward, http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Shankill-39most-deprived-area-in.3835096.jp, also happens to be in Gerry Adam’s backyard?
Blaming a combination of the mindless acts of young thugs, the lack of an adequate police presence and a general social decline on percieved Unionist oppression 40 years ago smacks of hand-wringing. Some sort of ownership and responsibility for West Belfast’s plight from Sinn Fein’s point of view would go a long way instead of always blaming their failings on everyone else. But then why should SF bother? When the local electorate overwhelmingly misuses (IMO) their only sure fire way of bringing SF to account for their gross negligence – i.e. the ballot box, because they’ve been duped by SF’s big double pretence:
a. The be and end all of your existence should be to aspire for a United Ireland. Forget about those other things like jobs, healthcare, crime etc.
b. Vote for Sinn Fein and you’ll get an United Ireland tomorrow (or very soon after)
Two things
1, as Gum pointed out, the problems that West Belfast faces are not unique. A short trip across the West link and you’ll see the same issues in North Belfast. However, I doubt that Nigel Dodds will ever receive the same opprobrium. This is replicated across major cities and in Ireland and Britain. Can SF do more? Certainly, but if you think one man can solve the issue of anti-social activity you’re giving Gerry Adams a bit too much credit.
2 I defy anyone to prove a link (direct or indirect) with SF refusing to take their seats in the British parliament and anti-social activity in Divis.
Whilst no fan of the PSNI or their clear inability to do the job they’re supposed to, I have a bit of sympathy for them when they do bring people to court and the sentence they receive is laughable. We’ve seen an extension of this attitude here in Slugger, particularly from a certain source where the ‘hoods’ don’t so much draw his ire, rather the community (through whatever channel) who speak out about them. We see it too, in the media, with their “I’m no angel but…” sob stories eagerly seized upon in order to discomfort a political party.
Step 1 for dealing with this issue: penalise the parents. Send them to jail for 3 months and then they’ll have a better idea of what their kids are up to next time.
Diluted
Actually the most deprived areas were the Whiterock, Shankill, Falls and Crumlin wards in the north and west of the Belfast City Council Area. Whilst I seriously doubt it’s all SF’s fault, I am confidant that the DUP’s world-renowed social crusading agenda will soon sort out all these issues.
Step 1 for dealing with this issue: penalise the parents. Send them to jail for 3 months and then they’ll have a better idea of what their kids are up to next time.
Dec
You’re an intelligent person, how would the above help, just give me an idea how this would solve the problem beyond making you feel good. By the way who looks after their kids when there mum and dad are in jail?
Politicians whose first thought is to punish should be challenged at every pass, as what they really mean is punish others and ignore the society they have helped create.
As to the shinners who are coming out with this send them to jail hard, they want to catch themselves on.
When children behave in such a despicable way we adults are responsible whether we like it or not, for it is us who voted in the politicos who have created this society. For christ sake any fool can lock people up, read a history book..
Ian og came in for a lot of flak for using his role in the St Andrews negotiations to advance the interests of his constituency. But GA could have done the same. He has in the past used political clout derived from the peace process to help pet causes like the Irish language.
And what have all the SF councillors done to improve services? The streets are filthy, the council cleans them and if it doesn’t do it right, then SF has the power to press the issue.
Instead we get nonsense like campaigns for half truth about the past and other crap.
The problem is a political movement with its energies focussed on ideology and dreams of a united Ireland instead of serving the people; a party that has become complacent about its huge base.
The attack on GA is effectively an attack on the whole party. Catriona and Babs and Maskey and O’Dowd; the whole lot of them are GA appointees. So either Robin has taken a suicidal turn – presumably he does want to be able to go to the pub and drink in peace without being hassled by BS and the like – or he is mouthpiecing for a very radical groundshift in the republican community.
The question then is whether this a shift against the Agreement and co operation with the police or a shift towards a better political focus. it is pointless unless there is a candidate in the wings.
And it may also be a response to a sense that GA has lost his political relevance. For the first time in decades he is expendable; the process can survive without him. And it can’t be nice for a republican to see Martin walking behind Paisley and Gerry twiddling his thumbs.
damned if you do and damned if you don’t…. punishment beatings.
Robin Livingston is being handed the pennies.
I assume that you’d all have the same to say about Bertie as his constituency is city centre and has sufficient crime to warrent him being removed from office (to say nothing about his own criminal behaviour). Otherwise you’re just on an anti-Gerry campaign.
Paisley has been elected for Ballymena for how many years… I assume, since I don’t hear you asking for his resignation, that there’s no crime there. That it didn’t feature one of the most recent sectarian, child-killing. That it’s not the heroin capital of Ireland… else you’re all puppets and hypocrites.
Don’t forget one citizen was tragically killed and you all seem to want to blame the local elected representative, not the courts, not the police, not the parents, not the drugs, just the same ol’ whipping boy. You seem to be led down the garden path a la Robert McCartney and his criminal sidekick.
Oh, I’m from Dublin. I think more on this thread should mention their location so we can confirm that they are just playing party politics as opposed to honest contributors.
damned if you do and damned if you don’t…. punishment beatings.
Robin Livingston is being handed the pennies.
I assume that you’d all have the same to say about Bertie as his constituency is city centre and has sufficient crime to warrent him being removed from office (to say nothing about his own criminal behaviour). Otherwise you’re just on an anti-Gerry campaign.
Paisley has been elected for Ballymena for how many years… I assume, since I don’t hear you asking for his resignation, that there’s no crime there. That it didn’t feature one of the most recent sectarian, child-killing. That it’s not the heroin capital of Ireland… else you’re all puppets and hypocrites.
Don’t forget one citizen was tragically killed and you all seem to want to blame the local elected representative, not the courts, not the police, not the parents, not the drugs, just the same ol’ whipping boy. You seem to be led down the garden path a la Robert McCartney and his criminal sidekick.
Oh, I’m from Dublin. I think more on this thread should mention their location so we can confirm that they are just playing party politics as opposed to honest contributors. We’d riots in Finglas on March 17th… I’d bet there won’t be any for a while to come…
By the way who looks after their kids when there mum and dad are in jail?
Mick
At the risk of sounding glib, I’d hope the kids are in jail with them.
When people like Harry Holland and Bap McGreevey are murdered by sewer rats, somethings got to be done. Something new has to be tried. If you can come up with a potential solution I’m all ears, but it’s patently obvious that (a) there is a calamitious lack of parental control in many of these instances and (b)that short custodial sentences aren’t making much impression on people like Thomas Valliday.
Dec
As I pointed out the Shankill is [i]the[/i] most deprived area in Northern Ireland. Fact.
[i]“Whilst I seriously doubt it’s all SF’s fault”[/i]
You’re right – it’s not all Sinn Fein’s fault but the electorate are hardly making the lives of their representatives any more difficult by pressurising them for change and giving those people some sort of incentive to get re-elected. Getting voted in as an MLA or MP in West Belfast is the political equivalent of a free-lunch. All you have to do it seems is turn up and make some pro-Republican noises and you’re a shoe-in for the seat – afterwards you can sit on your backside wondering what to do with your fat pay-cheque, courtesy of HM Government in London, for the next 4 years until re-election time comes round without a worry in the world.
SF’s standard policy of deflecting the blame for the chronic social ills in West Belfast is the usual: Unionist discrimination, British government, … blah, blah, etc, etc and their electorate lap it up without bothering to point the finger at the failures of their own political representatives. Does the rhetoric never wear thin?
Let me paint a glaringly obvious picture, maybe showcasing why West Belfast suffers so much neglect. If I happened to be a successful businessman why would I want to invest in an area run by ex-cons? Especially if I was a British businessman and those ex-cons happened to be ex-IRA? In years gone by would folk be bothered setting up any sort of meaningful enterprise in the west of the city in the knowledge that it might be burnt out at any time of the Provo’s choosing, that ‘protection money’ would have to be included in any costing analysis for the business or that the rule of law wouldn’t even extend to your place of work because the police were too sh#t scared of coming within 400 yards of the place?
[i]“I am confidant that the DUP’s world-renowed social crusading agenda will soon sort out all these issues.”[/i]
I’m not a DUP voter, never have been. In general they’re a fairly useless shower too but at least they bother to represent their electorate in the Houses of Parliament.
Reality is finally beginning to bite. Northern Ireland’s electorate will hopefully wake out of their sectarian coma one day to find out that the tribal politics espoused by the DUP and SF are actually a sham. Maybe then they’ll realise it isn’t the British, the Irish, the police or anyone else but themselves holding them back by voting time and again for the guy who waves their flag of choice the mostly wildly. People should be demanding that their MLA/MP gives them better education, better job prospects, better healthcare and better police or else they’ll take their vote elsewhere. Instead voters are content with being continually offered a false dream of Unionist/Nationalist utopia and being continually let down – yet they keep coming back when it doesn’t materialise.
Newtown Emerson had a really good article in the Irish News about how this was an opportunity for the Provos to make the case for devolving policing and justice to make it more responsive and effective. Even if I disagree with some of his criticisms of human rights issues (a bit of a red herring here I thought), it raises important points.
Many young people have become accustomed over several decades to giving no respect to authority. Now that the authority figures are the Provos, it’s not going to change that radically.
There’s no easy solution. It requires more police – why the numbers were cut in the first place I’ll never really understand as higher crime levels were the inevitable consequences – more enforcement of sentence, more community cooperation, and the addressing of the serious structural economic problems in places like west Belfast. However, what is clear is that the time for the Provos – or anyone else – playing party political politics with policing in west Belfast or anywhere else has long past.
OK anonymous, I come from west Belfast, moved away some years ago because it was a lawless and frankly dangerous place to live. Who is to blame for that? A lot of people. The criminals for being criminals, the judicial system for not imposing tough sentences, the cops for not responding to calls on time, the provos for facilitating and encouraging lawlessness for thirty years and yes, quite obviously those who are elected to provide political leadership and fail to do so.
SF have 5 out of 6 MLAs, Adams has been MP for twenty out of 25 years. The place has suffered mass economic and social neglect for years; what has been the typical SF response? A white line picket here and there, a series of “condemnations” aimed mainly at the Brits and the PSNI.
Its not leadership. While Adams led the republican movement on the world stage, he neglected his home turf.
Its all very well being feted in the Whitehouse, should have spent more time on the Whiterock.
ok Spirit07,
is Gerry the only inner city elected rep to have had a murder in his constituency? or is he the only one who had a murder in his constituency and then had a campaign against him blaming him for the social ill of his constit which ‘seems’ to have led to the complete decline of his constit and then the murder?
I never said WBelfast was an Eden. I never said that Gerry & SF shouldn’t have done more. I’m just pointing out that it’s hypocritcal and playing party politics if he & SF are singled out for an issue that seems to be rampant in Ireland and Britan.
I’d always heard that WB had improved since the start of the troubles. Previously the worst of housing and now they have some of the newest in NI. I thought that millions had been pumped into NI by Westminster to tame to natives. I was told that the Nationalist areas of West Belfast were better looking and had better housing than the Loyalist areas due to the work of SF (I was told by a FG’er).
So is West Belfast the worst and therefore should it’s elected rep be treated different than the elected rep of many (most) other inner city constituencies?
“Its all very well being feted in the Whitehouse, should have spent more time on the Whiterock.” again damned if you do and damned if you don’t… what would Whiterock look like if the issues in NI (and West Belfast specifically) had not been brought to the world’s attention? Fifty years of One Party Unionism didn’t get you much until Grizzly arrived. What did Gerry Fitt and Dr Joe get for WBelfast?
Q. Do Conserative MPs take the flack for crime in their area?
A. No, the government does.
this is something SF better get used to, criticizm is healthy, challenge is healthy and all part of the cut and thrust of “ordinary politics”. It embarrasses me as a republican to se how devoid SF are of ideas to address issues like this while at the same time they support pseudo community groups who(like the PSNI) are just not delivering. Waffler has hit on a very important point, in the immediate vacinity of this murder there are numerous community centres, youth centre, drugs projects, health centres and scores of paid community workers and all supposed to be working towards the social and economic regeneration of WB, It would be interesting if someone could actually break this down, how much has been invested in this community in the last 20 years because it obviously hasnt been effective and a new plan is needed. But what is also needed is an honest analysis of what the community sector is doing, this has to be for real, no more jobs for incompetant “community workers” who happen to be in the know. SF must show leadership in this particular aspect of the myriad of activity require.
Kensei,
Do Tory MPs exercise the grip on their constituencies that the Provos do on west Belfast?
A just published book by Kevin Bean of U of Liverpool talks about the community groups etc as forming a ‘Provisional State’. There can be no denying that the Provos are not a normal party. This is why they bear more than ordinary resposibility.
Ummm, I’m a bit out of the way up here in Limavady, but I am wondering if there’s a pattern emerging. We’ve had a nationalist-dominated council for several years and the crime rate is soaring. Anti-social behaviour, murder, arson like you wouldn’t believe at the moment. Buy the local paper and the only people you see out trying to do anything about it are three or four unionist councillors. The Dungiven clan who actually run the borough are nowhere to be seen. The unionists have been pulling together meetings of the different agencies, have been pushing for peelers, youth service, education board and others to get involved.
And really, when i say this i am not exaggerating: there’s been not one visible action out of the shinners and indeed the SDLP for some considerable time. If I were to vote at all it really wouldnt be along my community’s lines after the past year.
Sorry I’ve digressed a bit from the topic but Im just giving a perspective from out of town. Sinn Fein would have some nerve at the minute to campaign on any law and order ticket. At least in this area.
Thanks and apologies again for getting off the topic.
Garibaldy
A just published book by Kevin Bean of U of Liverpool talks about the community groups etc as forming a ‘Provisional State’. There can be no denying that the Provos are not a normal party. This is why they bear more than ordinary resposibility.
Please Garibaldy, they can say what they want but the only power they ever properly exercised was the ability to have people beat up or shot. Which they did, to how much effectiveness I’m not sure.
We also don’t know what state West Belfast would be in without the influence of SF community activism. I suspect it would be worse, if anything. These problems have intensified as the Troubles have died down.
Also, the Libertarian streak in me reminds me that people also have personal responsibility.
No, what this is thread is about is an opportunity to put the boot into SF; sadly they are having to disengage their brains to do it.
Garibaldy “There can be no denying that the Provos are not a normal party. “
True, but are there any normal parties in NI. Secondly, there is no denying that NI and WBelfast isn’t a normal society.
“This is why they bear more than ordinary resposibility. “
I haven’t a clue what you are trying to get at here. Please expand / explain. Gerry & the Shinners shouldn’t be held to a higher standard for community crime / societal ills (and in this case a murder) than any other party representing an inner city constituency.
Kensei,
It’s not just a matter of enforcing discipline that I am speaking about, nor I think that Kevin Bean is talking about. It is about the ownership or control of huge swathes of economic, social and cultural power within these areas. Whether it is building gardens of remembrance to tell a certain narrative (which more often than not downplay at the very least their victims within those communities), or control over the appointment of jobs in community groups, youth schemes, etc, or the ability to direct public or EU funding towards their favoured schemes, or in the effective domination of local media outlets, or in the overwhelming political support they have enjoyed. In this sense, since say the mid-80s when the Provos started to get realy serious about these areas (and which have had some positive benefits as you say) they have become in many senses the authorities in these areas in a way that an MP for any other party is not.
So if these areas are in crisis, then to some extent, but not totally, it reflects a failure of these alternative authorities to address serious problems. Which is what I take Squinter’s argument to be.
Anonymous, hopefully the above will have answered your question too.
Firstly no-one party nevermind an individual, can be blamed for the socio-economic problems that beset our communities….
That said when any party has a huge majority its not hard for that party to take the electorate for granted…throw out a few republican soundbites and hey presto the votes come flooding in…
On the ground SF can`t be faulted for its extensive constituency work but there is also a feeling of stagnation, that the leadership are somewhat removed and unaware of the concerns of our communities…
Added to that is the absence of any alternative to SF, the sdlp are unelectable with a dreadful record or lack of record in most areas of West Belfast…
The only thing that will shake the lethargy out of SF is viable opposition…
Time for SF to rock the boat…
DO
As I pointed out the Shankill is the most deprived area in Northern Ireland. Fact.
Not in the report
you referred to.
Getting voted in as an MLA or MP in West Belfast is the political equivalent of a free-lunch. All you have to do it seems is turn up and make some pro-Republican noises and you’re a shoe-in for the seat – afterwards you can sit on your backside wondering what to do with your fat pay-cheque, courtesy of HM Government in London, for the next 4 years until re-election time comes round without a worry in the world.
Replace ‘Republican’ with ‘Unionist’ and the difference is? Well, one difference is that they don’t appear to spend most of their time doing constituency work for one particular constituent anyway. And whilst you can pull SF MPs for a few things, pocketing MP/MLA wagees is not one of them.
If I happened to be a successful businessman why would I want to invest in an area run by ex-cons? Especially if I was a British businessman and those ex-cons happened to be ex-IRA?
Didn’t stop Tescos now, did it? And if our economic future depends on British businessmen investing here, you might as well switch off the lights now.
In general they’re a fairly useless shower too but at least they bother to represent their electorate in the Houses of Parliament.
Yes, because that makes so much difference. St Andrews etc are just sideshows to the real meet of PM’s question time.
anonymous
[i]Gerry & the Shinners shouldn’t be held to a higher standard for community crime / societal ills (and in this case a murder) than any other party representing an inner city constituency.[/i]
West Belfast is not just any inner city constituency. Even in Belfast itself it sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of its problems. Since Gerry and co successfully made large parts of West Belfast a no-go area for police for 35 years then is it any surprise when Gerry welcomes them back with begrudgingly, semi-open arms that it has little or no effect on curbing the crime-rate? The police are not just going to flood back into an area which only a few years previously would have been akin to a WWI soldier ambling out onto no-man’s land during the battle of the Somme. The policing experience in West Belfast for the most part of the past 40 years has been one of duck, cover and drive back to the fortified base in the fortified meat-wagon as quickly as possible before you get lynched. The presence of a ‘bobby on the beat’ so to speak is a fairly new phenomenon.
The fact that West Belfast is fairly lawless in parts is primarily down to Sinn Fein and no-one else. For 40 odd years kids would have been scared to sneeze out of turn or risk getting kneecapped by the Provos. With an absence of anything more than a skeleton police presence the IRA were the law. You also had the huge army presence. Remove the IRA and remove the army, as has thankfully been done on both counts, you remove any perceived threat to doing what you want, when you want to. There are no boundaries to limit the behaviour of thugs in the area and until Sinn Fein openly and sincerely demand the police to come and serve the community instead of treating them as a necessary evil of the peace dividend then things are not going to change a jot.
Added to this, surely when the apparent moral pillars of a community are ex-paramilitaries, be they IRA or UDA, then with the examples they’ve set is it any surprise these areas are victims of a social demise? People in West Belfast have to ask themselves what do they want? Continued lip-service to a United Ireland, equality and a socialist agenda with very substance to back it up or better housing, policing, education and jobs, which would be more attainable by voting for any party other than SF.
Interesting article from ‘squinter’ … is that the pitter patter of republican steel toe capped boots into the active IRA’s we are hearing?
It really is only a matter of time …
The more these communitites are gripped by the ravages of cocaine, heroin and eventually crack (wasn’t yer man described as being totally off his head) I’m guessing the less republican activists are going to be bound by idealistic notions of an honourable peace and a grey haired quiet life.
Here is hoping that many more of them are wondering why they left it for so long !!
Fuiseog
Ps Pass the vomit bucket as the SF Crown ministers exploit yet another ex-prisioner’s untimely funneral.
Garbaldy
You are often correct in your posts, but on this I believe you are way off the mark, to blame the provisionals for the shortcomings of the northern state is just plain wrong , they may not have helped at time but they are not to blame. You talk about the police as if the PSNI in Belfast is the same as the Dublin force. It is not, it is still a highly political police force that a large percentage of catholics have little confidence in. We are still way off the 50/50 etc or whatever the numbers are. Why should Irish people trust a police force that is commanded etc from London and has a history like the RUC/PSNI?
“Who is to blame for that? A lot of people. The criminals for being criminals, the judicial system for not imposing tough sentences,”
That sentences in the UK are soft is a complete illusion and far from the truth, indeed one of the main reason we have a higher crime rate than elsewhere in Western Europe is partially due to the fact we send more people to prison.
What some people here are demanding is a return to Dickensian days, when our [WC] children were sent to prison in great numbers. We already lock up far to many kids, now you want more. Locking children up will not solve the over all problem of criminality, otherwise there would have been no crime in Dickens day and he would have never written Oliver Twist.
People go on about bad parenting, what do you expect, todays parents in places like West Belfast spent their whole childhoods in a conflict zone. Yet despite this fact most go on to lead decent lives. People who have not, need support, advice, punishing if they do wrong, but in a constructive way, and if there is no alternative confining, but that must be a last resort.
However I say again to lock up children in a knee jerk way is criminal, and all those who have children should take a look at their own kids and think through what they are demanding, for make no mistake there are plenty of politicians out their who will lock your kids up if they can gain a vote by doing so.
I sense a hysteria developing around the issue of street crime and policing, Perhaps it is time we all slowed down and asked a few questions not least why is the hysteria developing now and who does it benefit.
I would suggest the reason Robin, who would never put the black on Gerry in a million years unless he had permission, published his piece was to stoke up hysteria and he seems to have had some success. Why, do I really need to spell it out.
Another Limavady Wan “We’ve had a nationalist-dominated council for several years and the crime rate is soaring. ……Buy the local paper and the only people you see out trying to do anything about it are three or four unionist councillors. “
So crime is a nationalist thing… good to see you’re painting the SDLP with the same brush…. at least your giving equitable treatment to all those criminal nationalists.
“Thanks and apologies again for getting off the topic. “
No, thank you for being so openly sectarian and no need to apologise for insulting almost half the population of NI.
Pray tell was Limavady always a peaceful, tranquil place until those criminal nationalists became the slim majority in the Borough Council? In this decade the town made the news for forcing Rev Armstrong from his home for saying un supportive things about the Orange Order. In 1997 Limavady welcomed the unwelcome Derry City Orange parades. In the early 1990’s, Limavady Councillors were surcharged after a Fair Employment Tribunal held they had not followed their own legal advice? So, when was the golden era of Dog’s Leap town?
Garibaldy: no, of course you didn’t answer my questions but you did answer my suspicions.
” *If I happened to be a successful businessman why would I want to invest in an area run by ex-cons? Especially if I was a British businessman and those ex-cons happened to be ex-IRA? *
Didn’t stop Tescos now, did it? And if our economic future depends on British businessmen investing here, you might as well switch off the lights now. ”
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/top-100-companies/article1930719.ece
…number 65 out of a 100 doesn’t seem too bad…!??!
People who have not, need support, advice, punishing if they do wrong, but in a constructive way, and if there is no alternative confining, but that must be a last resort.
Mick
Whilst I freely admit I don’t wear the “Round up the usual suspects’ cap comfortably, the problem with your last resort is that it can neatly tally with someone’s funeral.
Lurker (apologies if I’m repeating someone elses point as I haven’t read further yet), but I believe it to be a radical ground shift within Sinn Fein. Within it, we have the true followers of GA, and those who went along with it to give it a chance.
When a pro-Sinn Fein paper denounces GA then the guy has more than problems, the knives are out. Like Maggie and many before him, if he doesn’t go he’ll be pushed imv.
Mick I think you are wrong. Whip up hysteria by blackening Gerry to help get policing and justice devolved? Laying the blame at the feet of their own MP among others is hardly an endorsement of Sinn Fein as a party. I might join in Squinters solidarity with the pensioners and not go to vote either, or if viable opposition comes along vote for them.
Your suggestion would need tight engineering – and you know how it goes with the plans of mice and men……
Much too risky.
Amazing how the author of this piece has so many more fans on Slugger all of a sudden. Mr. Livingstone, whether you agree with this apportioning of blame or not,at least spoke from the heart. He cares passionatley about the way that his community is being torn apart from within by violent scumbags.
As for his new-found advocates and suporters on Slugger, shame on you for your blatant opportunism and callous disregard for the victim of this crime.
The blogger on this site called Pete Baker set an all-time low in terms of how he exploited the death of Mr McGreevy by minimising the scale of the crime because of the victim’s past republican associations.
The absence of any form of a censure or an apology from Mick Fealty speaks volumes about today’s Slugger-but as long as you’re up for a Blogging award next year, that’s the main thing-eh, Mick?
The existence of an impartial police force does very little to stem the rising tides of violence experienced throughout the western (and increasingly farther flung reaches of the) world. People today have little that binds them together politically or in a community sense. I remember talking to a friend some years ago from Barnsley who remarked on the changes in the town post the pit closures. The increased use of drugs, street violence and the ease in which a once politicised people were rendered stangers to one another left him saddened and disilusioned about a community in which he was once left in high regard. Democracy is only vital when it is local and has power, whether this is granted by statute or taken appears to make little difference.
Mick,
Didn’t think I was blaming the Provos for the shortcomings of the state. What I was trying to do was explain in what senses the relationship of Gery Adams and his party and his constituents is different than say the Tories or Labour, or Lib Dems to theirs. It is a reflection of PSF’s success in building a wide-ranging machine that they are so influential, and that people look to them for leadership above and beyond others. There is nothing comparable to it anywhere on these islands. But it seems to me that leadership is lacking in certain areas, and there is a fairly widespread feeling that crime and anti-social behaviour is one of them.
Anonymous, what suspicions have I confirmed? Let me know and I’ll tell you if you’re confirmation is accurate or not.
Good jobs make good neighbours. No serious investment in proper jobs (peace dividend?) leads to breakdown. Community-upper-urban tactical-focused-lower-resource-action-development-committee-groups of the people, armed to the teeth with clip boards, aren’t worth a damn! The people of the Falls and Shankill need serious jobs.
In the short term how about the district plods should be able to arrest and administer pre-set painfully high bail amounts on the spot to these scummers for set offences: no pay, no release till court (with sanctions on the cops for abuse of priviledge of course).It may disproportionately effect the poorest scummers but I don’t doubt the ordinary punters would love it.
Hi anonymous.
You wrote: “So crime is a nationalist thing… good to see you’re painting the SDLP with the same brush…. at least your giving equitable treatment to all those criminal nationalists.”
And then you wrote:
“No, thank you for being so openly sectarian and no need to apologise for insulting almost half the population of NI.”
I actually wrote this next bit: “If I were to vote at all it really wouldnt be along my community’s lines after the past year.”
If you read it again you’d see i wasnt being “openly sectarian.” Or if I was, it was against the people on my own side of the fence. I’m just calling the past year or so as I’ve seen it, as a catholic who lives in Limavady.
You then wrote:
“Pray tell was Limavady always a peaceful, tranquil place until those criminal nationalists became the slim majority in ((CUT)) advice? So, when was the golden era of Dog’s Leap town?”
I’m not sure how any of this has anything to do with the rampant anti-social behaviour, arson and murder that the town has experienced over the past year, but if you feel that you need to bring the past thirty years into it as well, I am not going to stand in your way. You seem to have quite a history of the town. Your knowledge of what I was writing about will tell you of course that none of the above issues i was writing about have had any sectarian motive linked to them. The arson is not aimed at any one community BY any one community. The two murders in the past year were drink related, I believe. Most of the crime related to the extreme rise in anti-social behaviour does not have any sectarian motive attached to it either.
I suppose my round-about point was that at this particular time (and i think i took particular care not to attribute any of the issues to sectarian reasons) was that we are seeing very little in terms of civic leadership by those who are supposed to show it. I do believe Anne Brolly was elected into the town ie is a town councillor. She’s nowhere to be seen. Two elderly unionists, one of whom isnt even voted in to the town however are.
An apology for the sectarian remark would be appreciated. I doubt I will get it. Its much easier I am finding out by reading this site to turn everything into a sectarian rant.
anonymous, i certainly will apologise if what i wrote made you automatically think i was a dirty prod. God forbid we’d have any of those about the place…
WB suffers no more or no less than other working class parts of the UK or Ireland. The endemic sense of victimhood and entitlement its people do suffer from, means they react in a number of hysterical ways to unfortunate but unremarkable events. SF seek to blame others for feral criminal scum even when they kill their own, their erstwhile cheerleaders (like Squinter) call for the ‘hardmen’ to return, despite lacking the balls to do anything themselves, as was the case with the same cowards during the war.
The rest of us just shrug our shoulders and get on with a much better life since the utter defeat and co-option of the Provos.
In short, WB: if you’re determined to drown in your own filth as evidenced by your recent reactions…chin chin!
Gerry Adams is a tourist, his speech at Harry’s vigil a bit bizarre, it was as if he had no idea of how things were,
Harry was a good friend of mine, we had that Soho jazz thing in common, we had London in common, we both missed it, that era, he was a leftie free thinker and I was a neo-con subsidy,
Harry was a kosher leftist, he wasn’t a PC fanatic. he wanted boys and girls to have separate toilets. He was tolerant, and safe on the pro-normal issues.
for example, we both thought FARC were girl abducting swine and if we were not careful, SF would possibly make homosexuality obligatory.
As for Gerry.
it was like listening to Senator McCain in Arizona talking about Michigan, one just knew the dude had been to ‘Nam, was up for it, deserved to be viewed as a hero,
but no, too valuable to expose to risk, and Detroit was simply too scary for a personal recce. Maybe, somewhere safer like Iraq, or Kabul, something doable,
Gerry Adams does not seem to know what West Belfast has turned into, it is a wild place.
latcheeco,
Is spot on about jobs, I am all for youngsters staying on at school etc, but some kids are not academic and it is often from this group the anti social elements emerge. This group above all else need jobs training, apprenticeships, for there is absolutely know doubt the devil makes work for idle hands.
If business refuses to take up the slack the politicians must create a system of skill training similar to that which existed in england in the 1960s, when the government set up job training centers that trained thousands of welders carpenters bricklayers HVG drivers etc, whilst paying them above the rate of unemployment benefits.
Spirit of O7
I agree it was a well written piece. But my spidey sense tells me all is not as it seems. Atown news is and has always been SF mouthpiece. Does anyone seriously think this was a piece of inspired journalism. Pennies to drop Shore Road resident…i couldnt have put it better myself. Watch SF go all out now to get tough policing. Its what they want, what we want, but sadly, needed another murder to do anything about it.
hey, if any of you guys get banned from this site by orange bigot fealty [text removed - mods].we havent gone away, you know
Has anyone read the string of bile attacking Squinter and his family on his own site?
Having been a champion for the philosphy that drives such bile for a long time, my sympathy for him is limited, but it is truly shocking in places.
Urquhart,
Its hard to escape the conclusion that he said nothing when the thought police came for others and now they are coming for him.
Pah – if it’s anything like the Andytown text messages page (“Squinter really makes my week!”) he’s writing most of them himself.
I like the Andytown News text message page, particularly the message this week which reads, “Ginger girls look disgusting”.
Makes you think
I actually wrote this next bit: “If I were to vote at all it really wouldnt be along my community’s lines after the past year.”
Therefore it was you who brought the “community lines” or sectarianism breakout of NI into the conversation about Limavady
you were writing that one side is to blame for the rising crime when you wrote “We’ve had a nationalist-dominated council for several years and the crime rate is soaring.” And you specifically mentioned “the Dungiven clan” ie the Brolly’s as you posted today.
“there’s been not one visible action out of the shinners and indeed the SDLP” you also mentioned the SDLP thus disparaging almost half the elected representative of NI and more than half in Limavady.
I know you claim to be nationalist as you wrote “if I were to vote at all it really wouldnt be along my community’s lines after the past year” after slagging off the nationalist representatives and praising the unionist ones so you can shove your “… you automatically think i was a dirty prod. God forbid we’d have any of those about the place… “
“…if you feel that you need to bring the past thirty years into it as well, I am not going to stand in your way. You seem to have quite a history of the town. “
I didn’t think there was a time limit to discussions on this site. I don’t think one should be restricted from including incidents over the last couple of decades when discussing changes in society. I didn’t think that you should be able to make sweeping statements about nationalist representative in co Derry and how they do nothing about crime while I’m not allow to bring past incidents about the area into the discussion to show that Limavady hasn’t exactly been the Garden of Eden prior to nationalist majority on the Borough Council which by implication you claim to be the source of all the towns woes. I’ve no history of the town… wikipedia / google shows the townsfolk don’t feed on milk n honey but my point is they never did feed on that diet!!!!
“I suppose my round-about point was that at this particular time (and i think i took particular care not to attribute any of the issues to sectarian reasons) was that we are seeing very little in terms of civic leadership by those who are supposed to show it. I do believe Anne Brolly was elected into the town ie is a town councillor. She’s nowhere to be seen. Two elderly unionists, one of whom isnt even voted in to the town however are. “
Why don’t I believe you? The following is how I read what you wrote: You took time to say the crimes weren’t sectarian but the root cause is because the nationalist councillers especially A. Brolly are to blame in comparison to the old Unionist geezers.
“An apology for the sectarian remark would be appreciated. I doubt I will get it. “
No you won’t. Crouched sectarian posts like yours should be disparaged which what I aimed to do… for that I don’t apologise. I’d have more respect for your comments if they came from a Unionist as they’d be seen as coming from a divided society’s viewpoint where daily life can be viewed from one side or the other and little middle ground.
austin “The blogger on this site called Pete Baker set an all-time low in terms of how he exploited the death of Mr McGreevy by minimising the scale of the crime because of the victim’s past republican associations. “
very true Austin, how can any of the law and order advocates on this site not see the irony,… it’s beyond me. The complete lack of respect for the murder victim and minimising the scale of the crime as the dead man was an ex republican prisoner and then they also complain about republican areas (ie W Belfast) having a lack of respect for their own community areas.
Irony leads to hypocracy and hypocracy in NI is a sure fire slippery slope to bigoty