Deal on council numbers?
Despite the recent reduction in the “love in” the DUP and SF may have reached a deal on the number of councils. According to the BBC, a deal is imminent on reducing the number to 11. SF had wanted 7, some of the other parties 15. We do not have finalised information on what the exact boundaries will be though I see the Impartial Reporter is reporting that Omagh and Fermanagh will merge. The final decision on the boundaries will come under Arlene Foster’s remit at Enviroment.
And under your hero Turgon we would have had seven.
I still maintain 11 is a pointless waste of money.
Hell, scrap ‘em all. The Assembly is a glorified council and over represented anyway.
‘The Assembly is a glorified council ‘
And talking shop. Still better than a shoot out .
it’ll be interesting to see what dire names they come up with this time, remember Inner East Council etc.
Kensei
I agree why not go the whole hog and get rid of the lot. Population of NI less than 2 million, do we need two layers at all? A few more MLAs and let us then coordinate services across NI.
Either that or leave well alone.
Is that about what the British government wanted?
“And under your hero Turgon we would have had seven.
Posted by Blackmouth on Mar 13, 2008 @ 10:40 AM”
What an immature post.
Who really cares whether there are 7/11/15 councils? The big decisions will be taken at Stormont, where the problem lies. I never understood the paranoia about nationalists controlling a council. I’ve lived in Unionist and nationalist controlled areas and they were both crap at providing adequate services and charging the earth for doing so to the hardpressed ratepayers.
The only thing they might be able to do is implement planning policies (dictated by Stormont) more sympathetically. The only ptasctical difference is that Unionist councils go through the motions of keeping the rates down, and nationalists find ways to pretend they’re really part of the Republic, like taking down symbols- of course using national legislation as their justification.
I don’t care if there are only seven, as long as they are geographically sensible- say six counties and Belfast- or give the Derry wans their own county borough too if it stops their gurning.I don’t care who the mayor is either- he’s a figurehead whose only real power is to dole out the scoops to his preferred visitors.
Memo to all DUPers who will trail this as a great victory- local councils don’t matter, regional administrations do
I’d disagree. Power is used best when it’s spread like manure.
For thirty years we lived in an area controlled by a few unelected British ministers. We’ve been starved of a culture of democracy and that’s been a bad thing.
Now with an Assembly, and an opportunity to re-organise the district councils, we can try and get some power and responsibilites down to as local a level as possible.
I don’t know about you but I like the fact that I can pick up a phone and complain to my councillor, who lives around the corner, that my streets are filthy and that there’s nothing for the kids to do. (And such local issues are more important to most people than many of the things the Assembly deals with.)
In yesterday’s Guardian Simon Jenkins noted that the French were about to elect 36,000 mayors. As he noted, such local democracy (despite its many failings) defends the French against the weight of national bureaucracy.
Give our local councils a chance – with some extra power and a bit of reorganisation – they could do the same.
“The only thing they might be able to do is implement planning policies (dictated by Stormont) more sympathetically.”
Now, that’s debatable!!
For thirty years we lived in an area controlled by a few unelected British ministers.
We still do.
Alastair Darlings’ budget yesterday will have more impact to people here than the wee pretendy student debating society at Stormont.
Taxation,the NHS, real education policy, foreign affairs, defence, budget. All Westminster.
look to David Cameron as our best hope.
Surely majordolittle taxation and the budget are actualy controlled by Brussels and the global markets?
With UK defence and foreign affairs covered by the US State Department?
“The only practical difference is that Unionist councils go through the motions of keeping the rates down, and nationalists find ways to pretend they’re really part of the Republic, like taking down symbols- of course using national legislation as their justification”
Feckless, work-shy Fenians again, eh? I’ll bet they still keep their coal in their baths.
Good to see the same old attitudes alive and well. Perhaps it’s time for the Nationalist-contolled super-councils to petition for secession from the union and reunite with our own.
point taken Nestor
Globalisation and world regionialisation will turn even national parliaments in to mundane administrations soon enough, with the UK still caught trying to please Brussels and Washington.
The Stormont gravy train has a fair bit of nest feathering to continue, uselessly for another year or so though.
“The only thing they might be able to do is implement planning policies (dictated by Stormont) more sympathetically.”
Now, that’s debatable!!
Posted by Nevin on Mar 13, 2008 @ 12:27 PM
Depends is wee ian a local councelor as well
I hope they extend the community veto thing to local councils (although I would have veto for the top 2 communities of unionist, nationalist and unaligned to cover areas where there is no unionist/nationalist to speak of, like North Down) to stop them trying to errect flags and change names and other worthless frippery.
I hope, for God’s sake that they don’t gerrymander Belfast as was originally proposed.
It is ludicrous to give, for example, planning powers back to local councils but then not allow Belfast to plan for the whole city.
I fear, though, that having a 50:50 sectarian split will prove more important to the Assembly (specifically to nationalist members) than actually providing the most sensible area in which to plan, co-ordinate and provide public services.
‘Perhaps it’s time for the Nationalist-contolled super-councils to petition for secession from the union and reunite with our own. ‘
You mean ‘unite’ with the Republic. You cannot reunite with a Republic which has only existed since 1949 . I have a gut feeling that the Assembly will prove to be a house of cards . And I don’t mean of the comical variety.
Not that either the DUP or SF will try to collapse it but it will become obvious soon enough that it will be unable to legislate on those matters which can make a difference to NI’s future economic prosperity. In addition differences between the parties over security devolution will split whatever small trust has been created .
I meant reuinite with our own people, Greenflag.
our own people?
Yea; we certainly don’t want any of themmuns about the place.
For shame!
Why shame Joe – when Darth’s post above clearly demonstrates that they still see us as beneath them. I’m all for reaching out the hand of friendship but there’s only so many times you allow it to be bitten.
‘I meant reuinite with our own people, Greenflag. ‘
As long as you are aware that the ‘people’ of the Republic now includes many who were not born here including Poles, Chinese , Brits, Lithuanians , Latvians and even some of ‘themmuns’
A 29 or 30 county Republic can be just as successful as a 26 county one .
I know that also Greenflag. You referred to reunite in my original post as somehow reuniting with the Republic which did not exist when we were partitioned. I pointed out that I meant reunification with our people that we had been partitioned from.
Joe seems to think that I should prefer to continue to live alongside people who view me as less than them rather than want to live with people (irrespective of relgion or nationality) who will view me as equal.
‘but there’s only so many times you allow it to be bitten.’
The white washed crow soon shows black again. Unionists can’t help it . It’s pre ordained . They have to bite. It’s been forced on them . That’s why there is an NI . An NI could not exist otherwise .
For Nationalists and Republicans to expect anything else is naive . So either you work with it and make do or you ‘bite’ the only real alternative !
Some say this is a victory for the DUPs- bollocks! the DUPs never knew what they wanted. All throughout this process the DUPs never once put in a position paper that stated a preference. They always hedged their bets – abit like their manifestos.
Lisburn Village Council – controlled by the jnr minister Alderman Gnome MP MLA, supported a seven council model. The great barrister from Nth Down Cllr Weary MLA as NILGA head honcho strongly supporter 15.
Paisley – couldn’t care less because none of his family were on any councils.
So there you have it – DUP confusion leads to compromise again with the Shinners. SF had a clear position position 7, even the UUP had a clear position 15, so DUP with no rationale go for the mean, the medium and the middle – 11.
But how many commissioners for local government services will we get. 4 times 11 times Jeffries age divided by Ian jnr’s salaries by Arlene’s mileage allowance and then some
We haven’t even finished the first page of comments and have gone from a discussion on local councils (number and latterly effectiveness/importance thereof) to melodramatic shite which basically boils down to using hyperbole to dress up bigoted statements with no more meaning than “Aren’t them prods all bastards?”
For christ’s sake get out more!
“Aren’t them prods all bastards?”
Aren’t them fenians all lazy bastards?
There’s a difference?
UTV Newsroom are reporting that the Executive has agreed on eleven councils.
Agree that there are pertinent questions that need to be addressed about another layer of *officialdom*, or gravy train for the boys…
The only good thing will be the death of Lisburn council and their no Taigs, Poles, Coloreds, Gays or Dogs attitude..
bye bye lisburn council…………….. city for none.
Twinbrook
Yeah, uniting with that bastion of pluralism, Castlereagh, is certainly going to usher in a new dawn of tolerance around there….
Pacman,
I do believe that most Protestants (for want of a better word) in N.I. are today quite happy to accept Catholics (again for want of a better word) as equals, except perhaps in religious matters, which are less and less important to all citizens.
I actually accept that for Protestants Joe – I never mentioned religion anywhere previously until beano added his 10 pence worth. I don’t accept it for unionists though (there is a difference IMO and experience) as I believe has already been demonstrated in this thread where nationalists are portrayed as a waste of a local council vote but unionists aren’t as they apparently at least try to work for the people.
Mind you, recent stories concerning charitable consituency offices, portaloos and property developers would tend to challenge that assertion.
Getting back to the matter in hand. Arlene Foster has announced that the specific council model she is going for is what was called 11(b) in the original RPA document.
So – eleven councils with responsibility for local roads, urban regeneration, community development, local economic development, some housing, local tourism.
The original consultation document is here.
Actually, we’ll probably find very little new powers. THAT will be part of the deal.
Rural Development, some Housing powers…but I don’t think there will be much else.
So – eleven councils with responsibility for local roads, urban regeneration, community development, local economic development, some housing, local tourism.
So what is the Assembly accountable for?
And x number of quangoes?
How many layers of cake is it possible to have?
Remember Lewis Carrolls island where the economy was everybody took in everybody elses laundry.
Arlene in Wonderland
“local councils don’t matter, regional administrations do”
No offence Dart but that is a pretty lame attempt to dodge the question on the TUV’s position on all of this. I have no reason to doubt that if 7 councils had of been doled out by Stormont that one of the first people to complain would have been Jim Allister accussing the DUP of forgetting about the unionist people west of the bann. The TUV are in an interesting dilemma at the moment. For once Paisley has been sidelined and once things start to happen that are actually to Unionists advantage the TUV has no response but to go quiet on the issue. Either that or issue a statement claiming they are responsible for a stop to concessions, but then again that would be hard considering they do not have their hands on the levers of power.
I said to Turgon on another thread that the TUV really needs to consider if it is an opposition party or merely an interest group that wants to keep the DUP in check. Jim cannot let policy decisions go unanswered simply because they do not refer to the IRA army council, his response to the fact that devolution of P&J;wouldn’t happen was to grumble something about how the DUP shouldn’t be there in the first place. They need to define who they are and what they stand for. Robinson is banking on the TUV harping on in the past and not taking them on on the real substantive issues. However it seems that if the DUP do indeed get these decisions right and the optics fixed, the TUV position has become a real tricky one.
My opinion on the councils for what it is worth is that 11 councils seems about right. 7 meant that lisburn, carrick and Larne were all covered in one area. That was far too big and this has divided the council areas up into reasonable proportions. The likes of Cookstown, Strabane, Moyle, Banbridge, Newtownabbey and Castlereagh councils were not really that necessary. I think this solves that problem without making the whole thing unworkable due to area. We also do not need three levels of government as we already have Westminster, Stormont and our local councils therefore in terms of power i cannot see them getting too much more.
Darth* not Dart!
pacman: Feckless, work-shy Fenians again, eh?
That seems to be showing a bit of oversensitivity, doesn’t it? I don’t think “going through the motions” is being presented by Darth as hard work, any more than “finding ways to pretend” is necessarily lazier. Overall of course “they were both crap at providing adequate services and charging the earth for doing so”.
Instead, why not dispute the generalised claims? Surely there are instances where nationalist councils have gone through the motions of keeping down rates, and unionist councils have found ways to pretend they are twinned with Finchley? That would challenge him!
Or if you can find a council of either flavour that was good at providing adequate services economically, that would show him…
Arlene Foster has announced that the specific council model she is going for is what was called 11(b) in the original RPA document.
That’s ridiculous. That means she’s keeping Belfast’s Victorian boundaries as they are, and merging Castlereagh with Lisburn, and Newtownabbey with Antrim, instead.
How stupid.
For the record, these are the 11 mergers:
Belfast
Castlereagh & Lisburn
Antrim & Newtownabbey
Ards & North Down
Down & Newry & Mourne
Armagh, Banbridge & Craigavon
Cookstown, Dungannon & Magherafelt
Fermanagh & Omagh
Derry & Strabane
Limavady, Coleraine, Ballymoney & Moyle
Ballymena, Carrickfergus & Larne
Pacman: “Joe seems to think that I should prefer to continue to live alongside people who view me as less than them rather than want to live with people (irrespective of relgion or nationality) who will view me as equal.”
Oh don’t worry, I’m sure they’ll look down on you too.
Arlene Foster deserves to be praised for her consensual handling of this. She set up an executive sub committee with cross party membership and though the parties had different preferences managed to get a deal through the Executive Committee. No solo runs, with an effectve outcome.
‘Cookstown, Dungannon & Magherafelt’
I can’t imagine people living in South Derry would be too happy about being under the thumb of a Tyrone dominated council.
(Joking aside – travelling from Magherafelt Belfast is quicker to get to by car than Dungannon; Magherafelt’s acute services are based at Antrim Hospital; and the town’s school catchment area lies to the north rather than the south).
This things always look more workable on a map, don’t they?
Willowfield,
That’s the trouble with Belfast – expand the boundaries in any direction and you end up with a unionist majority on the council.
Unless you go for the mandatory power sharing as per the assembly, in which case it doesn’t matter how many unionists you have – but at least you might have a sensible border for the provision of services… should the council ever decide to look at those
So the Shinners have sacrificed Armagh in the hope of turning Belfast green.
Billy, sorry won`t be my concern as Twinbrook and Poleglass as it is at Westminister elections will be moved back to its natural home…west Belfast
The reality is that no proposal acceptable to Nationalists would involve parts of Newtonabbey and Castlereagh coming under Belfast…. far too many Prods there to swing the council ….. and who complained about gerrymandering in the past????
It is ridiculous that people in Ardenlee Avenue are served by BCC yet people at the top of the Cregagh road are served by Castlereagh. But this is Norn Iron.
Some absolute abortions in there – Lisburn/Castlereagh, Omagh/Fermanagh and Ballymena/Carrick/Larne have no community focus at all. Clearly a back of the envelope compromise. SF and DUP can’t do joined up government; can’t actually do coherent government at all, just a series of policy fiefs who but antlers until a deadline comes up, when they cobble something half-arsed together (see also non-abolition of the 11-plus, Victims Commissioner(s), Programme for Government).
Now I’ll get a lecture from the usual Chucky/DUP apologists about how great the government is and how I’m such a sneering Alliance snob. Well, fine, if I’m wrong, prove it, otherwise, houl your collective wheeshts.
“It is ridiculous that people in Ardenlee Avenue are served by BCC yet people at the top of the Cregagh road are served by Castlereagh.”
I believe the exact boundaries will be adjusted somewhat after recommendations from the Boundary Commission, which will be asked to suggest modest boundary adjustments on the basis of what makes sense locally. This might include adding some parts of Castlereagh, West Belfast, and North Belfast, to Belfast. As UTV say:
“Importantly the Boundary Commission will have an important role in finessing the final shape of things to come”
“how I’m such a sneering Alliance snob.”
condemned by your own words!
11 councils will be the deathnell of independents and the small parties..
Interesting … very interesting.
What caught my eye on the BBC website map was the area (marked in a washy mauve on my monitor) labelled “Derry”.
That should salt a few tails.
Anent that:
Some years before I joined the diaspora and ended up in London, the London Government Act had carved the metropolis and its surrounding UDCs and Metropolitan Boroughs into the mess we’ve been lumbered with ever since.
It was done by a Tory Government trying to ensure that inner London’s Labour control was out-voted by the leafy suburbs (anything here sound vaguely familiar?). It didn’t work, not because we outbred ‘em, but because demographics and people’s self-interest changed.
So, of course, another Tory came along and abolished the GLC, because it didn’t do what she wanted. And tossed a slew of responsibilities, but few “powers” and less finance at the Boroughs. Result: see last sentence of previous paragraph.
At the beginning of this whole business, about the only thing that was open to offers was naming the Boroughs. Because there were so many local rivalries, London ended up with some real loo-loos. In which respect, here we go again.
Limavady will come under a Unionist Council and Down – which was to come under a Unionist Council in the 7 council model will remain ‘green’.
All in all a good negotiation by Sinn Féin on the face of it. I just heard Arlene Foster on the radio talking about how good it will be to have equality safeguards included for minorities, an argument that only SF had made in the past.
Bad news for the SDLP who are now the biggest party in Down and Foyle but will lose this position to SF in the Newry/Down and Derry/Stabane Councils.
SF will be the biggest party in all councils along the border except for Armagh. Belfast will obviously depend on the Border Commissioner, anyone have any idea how this BC will be appointed and when??