Deal on council numbers?
Despite the recent reduction in the “love in” the DUP and SF may have reached a deal on the number of councils. According to the BBC, a deal is imminent on reducing the number to 11. SF had wanted 7, some of the other parties 15. We do not have finalised information on what the exact boundaries will be though I see the Impartial Reporter is reporting that Omagh and Fermanagh will merge. The final decision on the boundaries will come under Arlene Foster’s remit at Enviroment.
Sammy Morse “Some absolute abortions in there … Omagh/Fermanagh … have no community focus at all. “
I don’t see your reasoning there. I always thought there was a good connection between those from the Omagh area and Fermanagh. Rural, nationalist majority but a large unionist minority, both now using the same hospital. Both suffering from distrust of government / officialdom due to distance in miles and ‘poor mouth farmer syndrome’. Both have strong connections with the neighboring border counties in RoI.
However the pubs in Enniskillan are better than Omagh and the other 30 counties would like to see the Ernesiders win football rather than Mickey Harte’s crew
I’m not challenging you but would like if you could expand on your opinion of Omagh/Fermanagh. Thanks, yours is one of the few knowledgeable opinions on this site.
for the nit pickers:
of course, Omagh doesn’t border the RoI but Tyrone does and as such I included this as a similarity w Fermanagh.
Before Malcom Redfellow adds to his list of things to write to ‘Points of View’ about, he might want to note that it’s the Derry City Council area that is shown in lilac and this is what the ‘Derry’ refers to.
No name change yet….
Bad news for Limavady. The bigots are back in charge.
Actually Limavady Wan, it’ll be a great opportunity for Limavady. The fear by many in the area was that the Borough would come under an all-encompassing city governance which – let’s face it – only cares about one thing: itself.
I pity Strabane, to be honest. It will be like current rural Derry – a wee add-on to the (and I use the word advisedly) city.
Under this model, Limavady will be able to at least fight for resources on a reasonably semi-fair basis. Also, don’t forget that area has been working far more with, and has many more linkages with the “Causeway Coast” area. This is a key chance for it to develop its rural tourism, and many other aspects of local economy.
The Borough has been run from Dungiven for far too long. Bigotry is not only a sin that can be attributed to the P/U/L community.
By the way – there is not much love lost between Omagh and Fermanagh. It’s a hospital thing. And certainly at Council level, Fermanagh wants nothing to do with Omagh. “Bitter” and “animosity” are two words which spring to mind.
StarHound @ 07:09 PM:
I don’t frequent “Points of View” or the other Beeb resorts any more: they’ve sussed I’m an alias, and put me on ignoral. Sigh … it’s a tough life if you weaken. But — cheers up — you can always get another pseudonym!
No: my real point was this is all distraction therapy, confuse-a-cat week stuff.
There’s going to be a lot of time and effort spent on adjusting dividing lines by a street or townland, just to satisfy a local politico’s wish for survival. It won’t work, because an odd half dozen in-fill houses spoil all previous assumptions. Then more blood and thunder on naming our own little patch of sunshine (which, in NI, is going to be infinitely frustrating, and works decent folk into a frightful froth). And people, or some of them, are going actually to believe this amounts to democracy and local control.
Anyone H2G2-savvy might be recalling Marvin:
Sammy Morse: Some absolute abortions in there – Lisburn/Castlereagh, Omagh/Fermanagh and Ballymena/Carrick/Larne have no community focus at all.
I agree wholeheartedly with the notion that Ballymena/Carrickfergus/Larne conglomeration is ill-thought out.
Where will this entity be based – Carrick (tucked away at the bottom with Antrim between it an Ballymena), Ballymena (tucked away at the top with Antrim in the way again) or the bottom right corner notion of Larne as the base.
A better idea (from a Carrickfergus perspective) would have been to shift those Newtownabbey areas which are to be moved into the North Belfast parliamentary constituency from South Antrim into Belfast and merge the remainder of Newtownabbey, Carrickfergus and Antrim together.
This is a 2 party fudge.
Another Limavady Wan “there is not much love lost between Omagh and Fermanagh. It’s a hospital thing.”
Those I spoke with say that Omagh didn’t nothing constructive about holding onto their hospital until it was too late in comparison to the efforts made by Fermanagh ….and I heard this from people from Omagh
So what have Saintfield and Crossmaglen got in common? Both will be in the new Down/Newry/Armagh set-up, (unless boundary commission acts)
Leaving politics/religion aside, how do you administer an area like that?
Was just going to make the Saintfield/Crossmaglen point, Eddie. That one in particular looks pretty hideous on a map. And what will they call it? Also, the Dungannon/Cookstown/Magheafelt council will contain bits of 3 separate counties (as Dungannon currently contains a small slice of north Armagh). I still think they should revert to the old county council formula myself, while retaining the likes of say Lisburn, Newtownabbey, Castlereagh in the greater Belfast area. Maybe even separate councils for Derry city and the rest of the county (the latter administered from Coleraine or Limavady). You could still work it that there’s approx. equal numbers of nationalist/unionist councils if that’s so important.
The last time this came up I did up a proposal for an 11 council model. I still think it makes more sense than the one proposed now.
Sorry for using the community background map but it does show the wards. Here’s the proposal again for the crack.
http://homepage.eircom.net/~newsbase/11CouncilProposal.html
Interesting proposal Niall, I think a lot of people would be happy with an arrangement like that (including myself as a Tyrone man).
SF seem to have negotiated an excellent deal here for six county nationalists. SDLP take second place now in each and every council and the leadership of SF within the six county nationalist community is further promoted. Another good days work by Sinn Féin; another nail in the coffin of the SDLP.
“Another good days work by Sinn Féin; another nail in the coffin of the SDLP.”
Obey the Party. Never question the Leadership. They are infallible. It’s all for the Love of Big Brother…
I love reading posts like this. It always puts me in mind of how the Wall would never fall. Or how China would never accept any sort of free market.
A Dublin supporter too. So rare, he had to remind us there were some down there…
The good thing is the DUP stopped Sinn Fein battle for seven councils 6 are controlled by Unionism Belfast stays the same, if the UUP had have gor Castlereagh added to Belfast wish it could still do under the review of local boundries then there would have been 6 Nationalist Councils not four, well done DUP.
Raven
I hope you are going to dish out the same stuff to the troll T&J;as you did to dublinsinnfeinsupporter !!
I couldn’t give a fiddlers about the carve-up, but 11 councils is still far too many for a country with less than 2 million people and a local assembly. Anything less than 26 is a welcome improvement, though.
DK
That’s the trouble with Belfast – expand the boundaries in any direction and you end up with a unionist majority on the council.
So that’s what we’re reduced to? A unionist majority is unacceptable? That’s gerrymandering.
I am turning into Victor Meldrew: I don’t believe it!
They just took the feckin’ average!! (7{SF}+15{DUP})/2 = 11 …
What genius came up with that ….
I’m looking out the window at a citybus route, a mile and a bit from central station, inside the city’s ring road. Apparently it’s not in Belfast!
Parts of the current council areas known as Newtownabbey and Castlereagh, along with those currently within the Lisburn boundary but really being in Westest Belfast should all come within any new BCC area. Anything otherwise is a total nonsense.
Absolutely, the Dowie.
DK : “That’s the trouble with Belfast – expand the boundaries in any direction and you end up with a unionist majority on the council.”
Willowfield: “So that’s what we’re reduced to? A unionist majority is unacceptable? That’s gerrymandering.”
Yes, you’re very perceptive. That’s why we need mandatory power sharing on all councils – like in the assembly. Funny no-one is talking about this – too concerned with their private feifdoms.
Or alternatively, we could simply have 2 councils – one for prods and one for taigs. We could call it “the assembly” or something.
Yes, you’re very perceptive. That’s why we need mandatory power sharing on all councils – like in the assembly. Funny no-one is talking about this – too concerned with their private feifdoms.
But apparently it’s OK to have some nationalist-controlled councils and some unionist-controlled councils … as long as none of them is Belfast.
Overehere,
Really, do I need to? Do I need to write the words you’re already thinking? lol
These models were drawn up at a point where I can nearly use the phrase “years ago”. There’s no “well done Sinn Fein/DUP” about it.
Now if they had actually sat down, and drawn up a completely NEW model, then I might have agreed with all the congratulations. But they didn’t.
Seven was no good. Fifteen was too many. It was always going to be eleven. It was just a question of which one. My only shock at the whole thing was the prevarication and obfuscation that meant it took so long.
Willowfield/Sammy,
One suspects (hopes) that the boundary commissioner will take an axe to the boundaries and make them look a little more elegant.
Michael
He won’t be able to.
He will be restricted in his terms of reference only to do a bit of tinkering around the edges. He will not be able to make significant changes.
pacman
you really are a classic MOPEr aren’t you?
The Unionist councillors always bum on about keeping the rates down- Punt in particular
The nationalist councillors seem to consider it a profitable exercise of their powers to remove symbols of “themmuns”
I don’t have much time for either posture ( though the former is arguably more relevant, given it actually costs us money to employ town managers, community relation officers etc who we managed without perfectly well beforehand). I’ve never heard a nationalist councillor worrying about rates burdens on local businesses nor a Unionist councillor gurning about -say Irish language signs on council offices. Perhaps they do. I merely observe they are all equally poor at meeting the needs of all.
Limavady wans
Do you really want to be a suburb of our Whine City Central? I almost feel sorry for Strabane! Coleraine’s depressingly dull councillors won’t be able to dominate if Ballymoney Limavady and Moyle have thebrains to gang up on them. The Mid Ulster councils can enjoy their own wee snakepit. Ballymena can pretend to be the city of seven towers, even though it’s..er, not a city and hasn’t seven towers. Omagh and Fermanagh have their own time zone anyway. The northern/western regions seems to have been sorted fairly well. Not so sure about the rest, but not my area.
So pointing out that traditional unionism’s view of their world is feckless nationalists versus hardworking unionists is mopery?
There you go – I obviously stand corrected.
Council Uni Nat Oth total
Derr / Straban 11 34 1 46 N
Ferm / Omagh 15 27 2 44 N
BCLM 37 25 6 68 U
Ards / ND 33 1 12 46 U
Aem/Ban/C’von 38 25 2 65 U
Belfast 21 22 7 50 ?
Castlr / Lisb 37 9 7 53 U
Antrim/Newton 29 8 7 44 U
Down, N&M; 12 37 4 53 N
CBL 40 6 10 56 U
CDM 21 33 0 54 N
Last times results added up (I know there will be ward size effects but indicative I suggest)
Willowfield,
I’d imagine the Terms of Reference for the Boundary Commissioner would be similar to that which was proposed under the 7 Council model. He/she will not be able to move the entire area of one of the current 26 Councils between one of the proposed new ones but could move anything up to about half.
Frankly in my opinion that still leaves a significant opportunity for movement.
Of course Fred Cobain would have Ballyclare as part of Belfast City Council under his “bring all of Newtownabbey into Belfast” idea. There are obvious parts of Castlereagh which any reasonable person would/should bring in under a Boundary Commission. The Belvoir estate is Belfast in anyone’s definition and I don’t see why areas like that wouldn’t move into Belfast quite easily. That would only be one ward of Castlereagh but would correct one area fairly simply.
Presumably the Assembly has to legislate for the approximate boundaries or groupings before a Commissioner draws the exact lines. Isn’t there supposed to be consultation on the specific model put forward?
The proposed 11 are a mix of the sensible (N Down/Ards, Lim/Cole/Bmoney/Moyle), the slightly out (why not amend to Ant/Bmena and N’abbey/Carrick/Larne?) and the totally irrational (Newry/Down). Belfast boundaries will be a dogfight: Dunmurry and much of Castlereagh should logically be in, but the M2 makes a clear boundary to the north. Lisburn/Castlereagh is as stupid (all the suburbs from northwest to east) as the old ‘inner east’ (going from north to south east).
Shouldn’t Fermanagh be on its own, same as London/derry City, with Omagh and Strabane having more in common together?
so we go from an equal split to 6 – 4 unionist victory and belfast, as before, even stephens.
sinn fein playing a blinder…. people of armagh and moyle now coming under unionist jackboot. and no regions large enough to really make a difference to east/west split in north…
plsn b never looked more attractive….
Plan B was Direct Rule.
yes and we would have 1: ila 2: 7 supercouncils and therefore real power in nationalists hands 3: nationalists would not be ruled by unionists and 4: developing east west links over the heads of the unionists.
sounds like a good deal to me….
When I arrived at this party, I made three predictions (see post 24 on page 2):
1. we would have endless argy-bargy about precise delineations of Council areas;
2. then those Councils would expend time and energy on deciding what to be named; but
3. such distraction therapy would make sure nobody outside the corridors of power bothered about the powers and responsibilities (i.e. the real democratic clout) the Councils could gain for themselves.
From most of what’s said here so far, I see no reason to change my assumptions.
Believe me, there’s nothing to wind up central Government, anywhere, better than an effective local democratic presence. A further corollary to that is all local councils, despite political persuasions, have a common interest in combining against the Centre: that’s why associations of councillors and other collaborations are significant.
“yes and we would have 1: ila 2: 7 supercouncils and therefore real power in nationalists hands 3: nationalists would not be ruled by unionists and 4: developing east west links over the heads of the unionists.
sounds like a good deal to me….”
and there we have the problem in a nutshell
It’s not about providing better housing and recycling for some nationalists, but a way to dissolve the border.
Here’s a wee problem for you: all councils have lots of Unionists and lots of nationalists in their boundaries. Most have generally worked fairly well at accommodating minorities- the recent attempts by the Dungiven mafia to rub Limavady Unionist noses in it by flexing their muscles is a classic case of self-defeatism in an area which up to then had decades of better than average cross-community relations throughout the dark years. So shorts all round in the Kevin Lynch hurling club and slap it up the Huns.That’s the way to unite Ireland!
The size and shape of the new councils allows for such substantial minorities that it will be a very foolish party that embarks on that type of exercise. Nobody’s “ruled by” anyone in councils-they don’t control the police and army; they control the binmen
darth,
will you and your mates be erecting the ‘Limavady Says No’ banner above Limavady library/council building again, now that your lot are back in charge of the fenians (mafia!) in Limavady/Dungiven.
That’ll really encourage greater community relations.
The new council boundaries worry some nationalists because most people realize that when 50%+1 comes, unionists will revert to form and demand repartion (democracy not being their strong point). The council boundaries could well be used for such purposes.
The new council boundaries worry some nationalists because most people realize that when 50%+1 comes, unionists will revert to form and demand repartition (democracy not being their strong point). The council boundaries could well be used for such purposes.
More or less inevitable, isn’t it? Once NI is revealed to be majority Nationalist, Unionists will suddenly realise that there is no such place. Looking at the local government areas, they will see that the Nationalist majority resides solely in Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry City, and Newry/Down.
SF have badly slipped up here.
The councils could have a bearing in the outworkings of a “2021 scenario”.
The 2021 scenario, the secnarion in which the era of nationalist demographic increase is seen to come to an end short of the critical mass needed for a UI, could lead to repartition. As nationalists in the six counties think again about the idea of a fair repartition.
That Down-Newry one is a bit odd to say the least.
Best to place eastern Banbridge in with Downpatrick and Newry City, and west Mourne in with Craigavon/Armagh.
Then you could call one ‘Armagh’ and the other ‘South Down’.
While we’re at it, we could merge Strabane, Cookstown, Omagh and Dungannon and call that ‘Tyrone’, merge Ballymena, Ballymoney and Moyle and call that ‘North Antrim’… you get where I’m going with this, don’t you…?
Niall
Spot on. Excellent job.
The 2021 scenario, the secnarion (?) in which the era of nationalist demographic increase is seen to come to an end short of the critical mass needed for a UI
Another disaster caused by this cock-up is the reappearance of Declan’s single transferable post. Well, Declan, since last you posted we have made some advance on the question. Your assumption that the nationalist demographic increase is slowing down is, I think, almost certainly based on the religious figures in the census. You assume, probably correctly but technically without proof, that Catholic = Nationalist and Protestant = Unionist, such exceptions as there are on each side cancelling each other out. Now it is true that Catholics are not reproducing as fast as they used to:-
[Google NISRA s306 and choose the HTML option]
However, if you look more closely you will find that Protestants are dying off a lot faster than Catholics are, because there are a lot more elderly Protestants than there are elderly Catholics. Indeed, for the next 50 years the Protestant electorate will be decreasing by a significant number- 15,000 to 20,000 per decade- more than Catholics, due to the loss of its elderly members. So the idea that the Catholic percentage of the electorate will stop increasing in 2021 is false, because the Protestant percentage will continue to decrease.
Looking at the matter from a party point of view, rather than a religious one, I note that there are 18 constituencies and in my lifetime the number of these held by Nationalists has increased from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 to 6 to 7 to 8. The next numbers in this series are, in my opinion, 9 and 10, by which time Unionist MPs will be in a minority.
Equally, I cannot for the life of me see how Unionists can expect to win 2 seats out of 3 in the 2014 European Parliament elections, so worrying about 2021 is unnecessary.
Any truth to the rumours that the Derry / Strabane proposal will also incorporate parts of eastern Donegal as a pilot for future east-west co-operation ??
)
What a mess – what have Ballymena, Larne and Carrick got in common – no decent road connections, two are coastal Ballymena is inland, Carrick has always gravitated towards Newtownabbey and Ballymena to Antrim or Ballymoney where they all have good connections.
Councillors will have to travel long distances over inferior roads when they already have too little time, they should be able to concentrate on their electorates – who will want the job in this case.
Gerrymandering is legal in New York! Many they should bring it back for here …. *ducks*
‘What a mess – what have Ballymena, Larne and Carrick got in common ‘
Answer – Sectarian cesspits and dodgy accents.
“what have Ballymena, Larne and Carrick got in common”
Tha hamely tangue a’ tha Ulster Scoots leid, a’ll be luckin foyered till hearin gud spakins in tha leid whin this thang gits gaen.
What a mess – what have Ballymena, Larne and Carrick got in common
Absolutely nothing.
Carrick and Newtownabbey are suburbs of Belfast as is Castlereagh and much of N Down. The natural boundary to Belfast are the hills around Belfast Lough, but that would be like identifying a unit that should be coordinated. In all this nonsense we forget that what really matters is that the councils function efficiently and deliver good services. We also need to consider that the council areas should to be able to plan and coordinate to promote investment. We continue the carve up of Belfast at our peril.
Someone remind me why we are reorganising the councils, what the purpose is and what real powers they are going to get? Is it really about Nationalist and Unionists head counts? Gerrymandering condoned by Unionists, Republicans and Nationalists?