More on Irish nationals in UK elections
Mick has already dealt with the Goldsmith report in detail. I just want to highlight that Ciaran’s post on the matter really is worth a read. Also, O’Neill’s perspective is interesting..
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Do Words Matter?: Book Review of Political Discourse and Conflict Resolution – Debating Peace in Northern Ireland
I share many of the concerns of Andy Pollak, whose recent post ‘My Response to the Slugger Begrudgers’ zeroed in on the ‘relentless flow of negativity’ of some Slugger commentators. Pollak’s post was largely concerned with the medium of the blog. Indeed, I think the anonymity of the online world encourages extreme discourse and allows [...] read our review »
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John Laird for Christmas?
John Laird (Lord Laird of Artigarvan) is unionism’s jester. His memoir A Struggle To Be Heard ” by a True Ulster Liberal” (from Slugger’s shop on Amazon here) might serve more as a heavy stocking filler than anybody’s idea of a main present. In it he wears the masks of comedy and tragedy to turn the [...] read our review »
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A poem for the day – Launching the Whaler Juan Peron
A Belfast epic, and one of my oldest poems, the opener of my first collection, Grub. The gist of the story was found in Moss & Hume’s Shipbuilders to the World: 125 Years of Harland and Wolff, Belfast, 1861-1986, which tells how Eva Peron was due to launch a huge whaling vessel in Belfast, built [...] read our review »
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George
I think my own and Ciaran’s explanations as to why there is a differentiation in the practical workings of this are clear.
I don’t.
Remember, currently you do not need to give place of birth when registering to vote, only nationality.
And?
The practical question here is how does a presiding officer at a polling station differentiate between an Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland and one born in the Republic if both persons produce an Irish passport?
He doesn’t need to differentiate between them. If the person is on the register, then the presiding officer, by law, must allow him or her to vote (provided – in NI – he can produce a valid form of ID).
You can’t have different registration rules for different British citizens so how do you remove the right to vote of an Irish citizen born in the Republic and at the same time identify somebody born in NI who takes up the Irish citizenship only option?
There is no “Irish-citizenship-only option” … unless someone applies to the Home Office or something and renounces his UK citizenship. I would say in such cases the Electoral Office should be informed and the person removed from the register.
Remember, Britain does not have ID cards and even if it did it couldn’t force Northern Ireland’s Irish to have one if the want to vote and allow others to show a passport or driving licence.
The ID cards at elections are to prove identity: not to determine eligibility to be on the register!
As far as I see, the only effect the GFA has on this issue is that it enshrines the right of the Irish in Northern Ireland not to define themselves as British.
A meaningless “right”.
While they are automatically British in an “electoral sense”, the practical problem is how do you differentiate them from the other Irish who are not British in an “electoral sense” if you are not able in any way to define them as British by demanding they carry a British passport etc.
You don’t need to differentiate them. If they’re UK citizens they’ll be on the register: if not, they won’t.
The practical question here is how does a presiding officer at a polling station differentiate between an Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland and one born in the Republic if both persons produce an Irish passport?
er.. Electoral register?
majordolittle,
er.. Electoral register?
Willowfield,
He doesn’t need to differentiate between them. If the person is on the register, then the presiding officer, by law, must allow him or her to vote (provided – in NI – he can produce a valid form of ID).
You are still missing the point. I’ve said this twice already but you seem to keep ignoring it:
You don’t have to cite place of birth to get on the electoral register.
So how do you differentiate a person from NI with an Irish passport from one from the Repubic with one?
Will they remove the right to use an Irish passport as ID to register to vote?
What ID will they be required to show?
Will everyone that deals with voter registration be informed that only Irish passports where the person is born in the six counties count?
How will this new style of voter registration work practically?
How will you differentiate between those Irish citizens born in the Republic and those ones born in NI?
George
You are still missing the point. I’ve said this twice already but you seem to keep ignoring it: You don’t have to cite place of birth to get on the electoral register.
And I have asked – and you have ignored – so? So what if you don’t have to cite place of birth?
So how do you differentiate a person from NI with an Irish passport from one from the Repubic with one?
You don’t. Having or not having a Southern Irish passport is completely irrelevant to whether or not you go on the electoral register!
Will they remove the right to use an Irish passport as ID to register to vote?
I don’t see why that would be necessary.
What ID will they be required to show?
I don’t see why the current list would need to change.
Will everyone that deals with voter registration be informed that only Irish passports where the person is born in the six counties count?
You don’t need to produce ID to go on to the electoral register!
How will this new style of voter registration work practically?
It wouldn’t be new: it would continue as now.
How will you differentiate between those Irish citizens born in the Republic and those ones born in NI?
You won’t. There would be no need to.
“Genetically” Irish? 5,000 years of mongrel RNA and counting.
So, should the Republic renege on it’s reciprocal courtesy of likewise extending voting rights to British citizens? It’s funny, I had always though that the British view of “British” was that it was a unifying identity that could be shared by all of the peoples of all of these islands (much to Irish nationalist vexation). Turns out that it doesn’t. Turns out that it’s not an identity at all, but simply a matter of law and specifically excludes people of the Republic of Ireland.
So much for neighbourliness and collegiality.
WF
On the same basis as they would prevent, say, a Chinese or Venezuelan citizen from voting and allow you to do so … by not registering him, but registering you!
Sorry, since when were Chinese or Venezulan citizens allowed to vote in UK elections? You appear to be missing the point that currently, Irish citizens are entitled to vote in UK elections. If that right is removed how does ‘officialdom’ distinguish between Irish citizens still entitled to vote and those who aren’t? No-one is suggesting that the problem is insurmountable but that current arrangements will have to be adjusted/amended. Simply parroting on about just registering UK citizens doesn’t really address the problem.
Willowfield,
And I have asked – and you have ignored – so? So what if you don’t have to cite place of birth?
Because otherwise they won’t know if you were born in the UK or not. Why don’t you have a look at the form you have to fill out and the information needed to register to vote.
http://www.eoni.org.uk/new_registration_form.pdf
When you have, I hope it becomes clear to you the issue of differentiating if the UK wants to refuse the vote to Irish citizens not born in the UK.
How would you be able to differentiate between an Irish passport carrying George born in Dublin and Irish passport carrying George born in Belfast for the purposes of voting register integrity?
Then you have the knock-on effects when it comes to the ID presented when voting.
If you don’t see the issue at this stage, I give up trying to explain it to you.
Sorry, since when were Chinese or Venezulan citizens allowed to vote in UK elections?
They aren’t (unless they have dual UK citizenship), and – under the proposal being discussed – neither would Southern Irish citizens (unless they had dual UK citizenship).
You appear to be missing the point that currently, Irish citizens are entitled to vote in UK elections.
I’m not missing the point … since the proposal is that that should change!!
If that right is removed how does ‘officialdom’ distinguish between Irish citizens still entitled to vote and those who aren’t?
The same way as they distinguish between Chinese and Venezuelan citizens entitled to vote and those who aren’t!
No-one is suggesting that the problem is insurmountable but that current arrangements will have to be adjusted/amended.
How?
Simply parroting on about just registering UK citizens doesn’t really address the problem.
What is the problem? Please define it.
George
Because otherwise they won’t know if you were born in the UK or not.
And why would they need to?
Why don’t you have a look at the form you have to fill out and the information needed to register to vote. When you have, I hope it becomes clear to you the issue of differentiating if the UK wants to refuse the vote to Irish citizens not born in the UK.
Sorry, I’ve looked at the form and it’s not clear.
How would you be able to differentiate between an Irish passport carrying George born in Dublin and Irish passport carrying George born in Belfast for the purposes of voting register integrity?
The same way as they differentiate between a Chinese-passport-carrying George born in Shanghai and Chinese-passport-carrying George born in Belfast.
Then you have the knock-on effects when it comes to the ID presented when voting.
What would those knock-on effects be?
If you don’t see the issue at this stage, I give up trying to explain it to you.
What is the issue?
One point that hasn’t been considered. How is someone born in Malin head, Co.Donegal, which is more northern than northern Ireland be considered southern Irish. The plot thickens.
Willowfield, you are missing the question. How does a person register to vote in the United Kingdom? How do they prove that they are a UK citizen?
If a person is born in Northern Ireland, say, has an Irish passport but not a British one, what extra hoops will they have to jump through? What is the Chinese or Venezulan citizen asked for if they try to register to vote in the UK? Are they just asked to produce a UK passport?
What is the mechanism for determining citizenship? And how will this proposed change in law affect electoral registration as a result?
Then Willow how are you going to stop any irish citizen with a passport from voting
Willowfield,
read the form again. Firstly, only British, Irish or Commonwealth citizens can register so forget China.
Remember that the idea is to remove Westminster voting rights for Irish citizens not born in NI.
So, having looked at the form, how would you differentiate between someone born in Belfast and someone born in Dublin if both put down their nationality as “Irish” in the nationality box?
Someone above, Chekov I think, said Unionism is a much more inclusive philosophy than Nationalism. That being the case I am sure there are zero incidents of attacks on Poles, Chinese etc in Loyalist areas whereas I am sure the nasty narrow Nationalists never stop harrassing this non-Irish element, would that be right?
Two points:
1) The proposal, as it stands, only applies to Westminster elections – devolved, local government and European elections are unaffected (ROI-born Irish citizens qualifying through EU membership). Quite why the distiction between Westminster and devolved elections is there, I don’t know.
2) Goldsmith’s report states “the restriction of the right to vote in Westminster elections should be phased, so that no person who is already resident or registered to vote in the UK loses the right to vote.”. So a very long-term change.
That’s if you believe that any of this will come to pass at all – personally, I don’t, which makes it look even more like a storm in a teacup.
OILIFEAR
Willowfield, you are missing the question. How does a person register to vote in the United Kingdom? How do they prove that they are a UK citizen?
They register by completing a form. In Northern Ireland, you have to declare your nationality and provide your national insurance number (that may not be necessary in GB).
I don’t think there is any need to prove that you are a UK citizen: they just seem to take it at face value. I guess, though, that if there were any suspicion some kind of enquiries would be made.
If a person is born in Northern Ireland, say, has an Irish passport but not a British one, what extra hoops will they have to jump through?
I don’t see why they would have to jump through any hoops – as a UK citizen they would be registered on the same basis as any other UK citizen and – if there were any hoops to jump through – they would be the same hoops as would be required of any other UK citizen.
What is the Chinese or Venezulan citizen asked for if they try to register to vote in the UK? Are they just asked to produce a UK passport?
I’ve no idea.
What is the mechanism for determining citizenship? And how will this proposed change in law affect electoral registration as a result?
As I said above, it seems that you just have to declare your citizenship on the form. What steps are taken to detect anyone making a false declaration, I’m afraid I don’t know.
STEVE
Then Willow how are you going to stop any irish citizen with a passport from voting
It wouldn’t be for me to stop them: it would, presumably, be for the Electoral Office. I imagine they would do the same thing as they do to stop a Chinese or Venezuelan citizen with a passport from voting.
GEORGE
Firstly, only British, Irish or Commonwealth citizens can register so forget China.
Yeah, but if the proposal being discussed were implemented, Southern Irish citizens wouldn’t be able to register, so they would be in the same category as China!
Remember that the idea is to remove Westminster voting rights for Irish citizens not born in NI.
No: it would be for all Southern Irish citizens who were not also UK citizens. (A Southern Irish citizen born in NI, but not a UK citizen, would not be eligible.)
So, having looked at the form, how would you differentiate between someone born in Belfast and someone born in Dublin if both put down their nationality as “Irish” in the nationality box?
Well, the form would need to be redesigned to take account of the new law. Someone declaring to be a Southern Irish citizenship and not a UK citizen would not get registered – regardless of where he was born.
I imagine, though, that the form would be designed in such a way as not to offend the poor sensibilities of those nationalists who like to pretend that they aren’t UK citizens – so they could ask the question in some other way.
WF
Congratulations on your successful attempt to transform this thread into a modernist re-working of No Exit.
Give yourself a pat on the back for cleverness, Dec, but all I’m doing is pointing out that the issue about distinguishing between Northern-born and Southern-born ROI citizens is a red herring.
How can they be southern born if they’re born in Donegal ya langer.
Exceptional, humbling work from Willow as always.
Willowfield … you are amazing. Master of scintillating cynicism and amazing repartee and total evader of questions asked.
Pancho
I haven’t knowingly evaded any questions, let alone the totality of questions asked of me.
Quite the opposite, in fact: I have sought to answer all questions put to me.
Give yourself a pat on the back for cleverness, Dec, but all I’m doing is pointing out that the issue about distinguishing between Northern-born and Southern-born ROI citizens is a red herring.
Sure you did WF.
The original position was that:
“It would NOT therefore “be necessary to distinguish this group of Irish citizens [i.e. those born in Northern Ireland] from others”!”
Your latest is:
“Well, the form would need to be redesigned to take account of the new law. Someone declaring to be a Southern Irish citizenship and not a UK citizen would not get registered – regardless of where he was born. ”
And all it took was several pages of various people trying to get you to understand a single, simple point. Rest assured your status as a byword in pedantry and evassiveness is secure.
Dec
The original position was that:
“It would NOT therefore “be necessary to distinguish this group of Irish citizens [i.e. those born in Northern Ireland] from others”!”
And nor would it.
Your latest is:
“Well, the form would need to be redesigned to take account of the new law. Someone declaring to be a Southern Irish citizenship and not a UK citizen would not get registered – regardless of where he was born. “
Indeed.
And all it took was several pages of various people trying to get you to understand a single, simple point. Rest assured your status as a byword in pedantry and evassiveness is secure.
You’re not making any sense, Dec.
What’s the difference between:
(a) “It would NOT therefore “be necessary to distinguish this group of Irish citizens [i.e. those born in Northern Ireland] from others”!”; and
(b) “Someone declaring to be a Southern Irish citizenship and not a UK citizen would not get registered – regardless of where he was born.”?
Both statements make the same point!
Dear me, Dec!
When registering on the electoral register in Britain one only requires to complete the electoral registration forms which are sent periodically (and it appears with increasing frequency) to every household and which are required to be completed by the householder on pain of penalty.
There is no requirement for any identification to accompany the completed form, nor have I ever been aware of any checks ever having been made to verify the answers to the questions thereon given by myself or indeed anyone.Indeed it is a matter of record that any number of dogs, cats and budgerigars that have been entered on the forms either as a result of their owner’s sentimentality or out of sheer devilment and are thus perfectly entitled to vote accordingly (indeed I suspect that a lot of them probably do).
“The proposal, as it stands, only applies to Westminster elections – devolved, local government and European elections are unaffected (ROI-born Irish citizens qualifying through EU membership). Quite why the distiction between Westminster and devolved elections is there, I don’t know.”
As a matter of pure pedantry does it apply to Border Polls?
Willowfield,
Yeah, but if the proposal being discussed were implemented, Southern [sic] Irish citizens wouldn’t be able to register, so they would be in the same category as China!
Immediately, that would be in contravention of the GFA as you are requiring Irish citizens born in NI to define their nationality as British in order to be able to vote.
As much as you want to live in 1920, there is no “Southern Irish” citizenship, only Irish citizenship, there is no differentiation.
So the only way I see it working is to, as Goldsmith said, differentiate between Irish citizens born north and south of the border.
I know you began not believing there was a need for differentiation but at least you now finally accept differentiation is indeed necessary for this to work.
The question is whether and how this differentiation is possible.
Well, the form would need to be redesigned to take account of the new law.
What you mean here is the Electoral Office would require the information necessary so that it can differentiate between Irish citizens born in NI and those born in the Irish Republic.
Someone declaring to be a Southern Irish citizenship and not a UK citizen would not get registered – regardless of where he was born.
I imagine, though, that the form would be designed in such a way as not to offend the poor sensibilities of those nationalists who like to pretend that they aren’t UK citizens – so they could ask the question in some other way.
It’s nothing to do with sensibilities, it’s to do with holding to international agreements and making good law in general.
The question is, as Goldsmith rightly points out, how do you differentiate between Irish citizens without breaching the GFA?
Creating such a situation is most likley not as easy as simply asking for place of birth. There are certain to be unknown pitfalls.
The biggest pitfall I see straight off is how you word the restrictions on voting rights for Irish citizens.
Do you simply say only Irish citizens born in one part of Ireland can vote in Westminster elections and hope that holds water?
Do you accept the Irish passport as evidence of where these people were born or would there have to be some kind of British certification process?
Would such a certification process be legal or would it, as Ciaran points out, add a new hoop for one set of people who want to vote?
willow,
Been busy twittering the budget elsewhere today, but in case no one else has replied to this point:
“People born in Northern Ireland have been entitled to Southern Irish citizenship for over 50 years. The Belfast Agreement did not change this: it merely restated it.”
Qualification was open to people with grandparents who were born before partition. In the 70s that covered a lot of people. The Belfast Agreement meant people could qualify in their own right.
I used to be able to qualify through both my parents. Now I could pass that right on to my grandchildren.
I’d imagine they can come up with some sort of wording to placate those with a seething hatred for all things British/a more sensitive disposition (delete as appropriate). Maybe something like a box to tick along the lines of:
“I confirm that I am a citizen of the United Kingdom.”
or
“I confirm that I am entitled to citizenship of the United Kingdom under [insert relevant act].”
Mick
Qualification was open to people with grandparents who were born before partition. In the 70s that covered a lot of people. The Belfast Agreement meant people could qualify in their own right.
I have had an Irish passport since at least 1994, and my grandparents were born in the 30′s. Now my grandmother had Irish citizenship, and my mother and father have Irish citizenship, so maybe you’re saying that’s how it was passed down. But I’m almost certain you still qualified by birthright before the GFA.
[i]“I have had an Irish passport since at least 1994, and my grandparents were born in the 30’s. Now my grandmother had Irish citizenship, and my mother and father have Irish citizenship, so maybe you’re saying that’s how it was passed down.”[/i]
It might be one of the reasons, but the Roman Catholic schooling system is another reason, they’re a rule unto their own and they learn politics to their students from a very early age by promoting an All-Ireland, learning them the 1916 rising which took advantage of the great men who went to the Somme so they could still be Irishmen.
Willowfield,
So, in sum, after a very long-winded reply, am I to understand that your response was, “I’m afraid I don’t know.”?
OK.
—
Mick,
My understanding is that under the 1935 Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act a person registered as being born in Northern Ireland to a father of Irish citizenship was deemed a “natural-born citizens of Saorstát Eireann”. All persons residing in the Free State at the time of independence – which included Northern Ireland for the first month – were declared Irish citizens at that time (and in fact only these were the only Irish citizens until the 1935 act).
Under the 1956 Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, any person born in the six counties were Irish citizens following a declaration of allegiance. That remained the case until 2001.
Ulsters my homeland, learn from .. teach to. If the Saxe-Coburgs fall out and fight, why shouldn’t we, Irish, take the opportunity to give them all the old heave ho?
What’s the difference between:
(a) “It would NOT therefore “be necessary to distinguish this group of Irish citizens [i.e. those born in Northern Ireland] from others”!”; and
(b) “Someone declaring to be a Southern Irish citizenship and not a UK citizen would not get registered – regardless of where he was born.”?
Both statements make the same point!
Unfortunately, you appear to have omitted (unintentionally, of course) this sentence from the latter post:
Well, the form would need to be redesigned to take account of the new law.
which to my mind, would appear to be at odds with:
“It would NOT therefore “be necessary to distinguish this group of Irish citizens [i.e. those born in Northern Ireland] from others”!”;
I’d imagine they can come up with some sort of wording to placate those with a seething hatred for all things British/a more sensitive disposition (delete as appropriate).
Beano
No doubt you were in favour of retaining Articles 2 & 3 of the Irish Constitution?
“… which took advantage of the great men who went to the Somme so they could still be Irishmen.”
… of the futile slaughter of it all and of those great men who came back from the Somme and took up arms again at home so that they could be free Irishmen.
(“… they learn [sic] politics to their students …” And teach them grammar too.)
Willowfield,
You are getting pitiful in your denial of reason.
It was a simple question about 20 comments ago; i just realized that you find it impossible to fathom that someone from the republic might live in the north.??
George
Immediately, that would be in contravention of the GFA as you are requiring Irish citizens born in NI to define their nationality as British in order to be able to vote.
No: they would be acknowledging their UK citizenship – merely acknowledging a fact. That doesn’t mean they’re not Irish!
As much as you want to live in 1920, there is no “Southern Irish” citizenship, only Irish citizenship, there is no differentiation.
Er, “Irish citizenship”, so-called, is Southern Irish citizenship! There’s no all-Ireland state yet!
I know you began not believing there was a need for differentiation but at least you now finally accept differentiation is indeed necessary for this to work.
But I don’t. There is no need for differentiation – all UK citizens would get to vote. If you were a Southern Irish citizen, but not a UK citizen, you wouldn’t get a vote – regardless of where you were born.
What you mean here is the Electoral Office would require the information necessary so that it can differentiate between Irish citizens born in NI and those born in the Irish Republic.
No. They would need to remove the stuff saying that British, Irish or Commonwealth citizens can vote, and replace it with “BRitish or Commonwealth citizens” can vote.
It’s nothing to do with sensibilities, it’s to do with holding to international agreements and making good law in general.
No: it’s to do with sensibilities. There appear to be a lot of nationalists in NI who are in denial about being UK citizens and don’t like to be reminded.
The question is, as Goldsmith rightly points out, how do you differentiate between Irish citizens without breaching the GFA?
You don’t need to differentiate.
The biggest pitfall I see straight off is how you word the restrictions on voting rights for Irish citizens. Do you simply say only Irish citizens born in one part of Ireland can vote in Westminster elections and hope that holds water?
No you just say that only UK (and Commonwealth?) citizens can vote, and explain that holding Southern IRish citizenship alone is not enough.
Mick
Qualification was open to people with grandparents who were born before partition. In the 70s that covered a lot of people. The Belfast Agreement meant people could qualify in their own right.
That’s wrong, Mick. Anyone born in NI could apply for Southern Irish citizenship – at least since 1956.
Dec
Unfortunately, you appear to have omitted (unintentionally, of course) this sentence from the latter post: Well, the form would need to be redesigned to take account of the new law.
And? HOw is that relevant?!
which to my mind, would appear to be at odds with: “It would NOT therefore “be necessary to distinguish this group of Irish citizens [i.e. those born in Northern Ireland] from others”!”;
How on earth would it be at odds with that? Just because they need to design a new form doesn’t mean they need to distinguish between Southern Irish citizens born in the North and the South!
yingyangsang
You are getting pitiful in your denial of reason.
Really? What reason have I denied?
It was a simple question about 20 comments ago; i just realized that you find it impossible to fathom that someone from the republic might live in the north.??
I don’t find it impossible to fathom that. No idea what you’re talking about.
Willowfield, there’s more for you to italicise here if you’re bothered: my latest response to you is far too long-winded to impose on Slugger.
Willowfield/I don’t find it impossible to fathom that. No idea what you’re talking about./
So southern Irish ( how I indulge you ) would have the right to vote once they live in the north (indulge me) .Maybe you don’t realize that lots of nationalists would have nver been put on the register at birth , and now dur to GFA might put them themselves there in the fight/right with an Irish Passeport
Willowfield,/No: they would be acknowledging their UK citizenship – merely acknowledging a fact. That doesn’t mean they’re not Irish!
Oh yes it does.Hence the existence of northern ireland.Otherwise,there would have never been need for partition.Sill in denial!
Dubliner knows what i mean
And Irishness a subset cannto be!
Long live the prods our greatest victory,
for here on this little Isle of long misery,
short are the remains of unsaid calamity,
and so let it be kwown that the Republic is dead,
for slaves are we,
but to what, idiots call geography
Returns we shelter, sorry little fools we love,
with degrees from Engerland,and little love.
Subsets,upsets, and another eigth hundred bets
Willowfield’s response to an earlier comment by The Third Policeman ( see below) best illustrates, to my mind at least, the import of the rest of his argument regarding the practicality of any attempt to apply Goldsmith’s proposal on restricting the voting rights of Irish citizens resident in the UK.
His differentiation between the use of identification in determining the right of eligibility to vote and the use of such presentation to determine identity seems so almost correct that we almost sigh with disappointment as it falls short only by stumbling against the obstacle of the lack of any requirement (in England and Wales at least, from personal experience) to provide any identification whatsoever – either at the time of electoral registration or at the polling station itself where all that is required in order to register a vote is that one can give the correct name and address of the person on the register whom one purports to be. The mere presentation of the voting card of a registered voter will also usually suffice.
By this means it is perfectly possible that Tweety Carwardine, the electorally registered pet budgerigar of a close neighbour, has helped elect Tottenham’s own (and earlier) Barak Obama – the ever gorgeous and ever-so-slightly-black yet terribly clever Member of Parliament once tipped to be the UK’s first black (ish) prime minister.
Unfortunately he has again pre-empted Obama insofar that his slip from the public imagination has been so successful that I cannot at this moment recall his name.
The Third Policeman
I was born in Magherafelt in Co.Derry, I hold an Irish passport but no British one. If I turn up on voting day will my passport be an adequate form of ID?
The purpose of presenting a means of ID at the polling station is not to determine eligibility (that is done when the electoral register is collated): but to determine your identity. Therefore I see no reason why a Southern Irish passport could not continue to be used to prove your identity.
Posted by willowfield on Mar 12, 2008 @ 03:35 PM
I just remembered old “I’ll never forget Whatsisname?” – as perhaps I should have given that he is my representative at parliament. He is of course the gorgeous, pouting and ever so eminently reasonable – even though he is just a little bit black (ish) – David Lammy!
His plummet to obscurity during a rapid ascent towards the height of fame cannot be solely attributed to his apparent lack of the Scots factor – it is more a case of, even were he to be Scots, he would be assumed to have more of Fettes than Firth o’ Forth. Not his fault – merely a paradigmatic image shift. Could happen to the bishop.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/British-passport.jpg
A photographic reproduction of a passport as issued to a citizen of “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. No description on any page describing the holder as “British”. This image offered by Wikipedia is the very same as that from the passport of an Englishwoman born in Somerset of yeoman stock and able, from local parish records, to trace her Somerset lineage back to the 18th century and she too is described not as “British” or even “English” but simply as “a citizen of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. In any case, like most English people, she does not think of herself at all as “British” – that, she says, is what those who aren’t “proper English” call themselves in a vain attempt to pretend they are also “proper”.
I know this to be her attitude – dear reader, I married her!
yingyangsang
So southern Irish ( how I indulge you ) would have the right to vote once they live in the north (indulge me) .
Under Goldsmith’s plan, not unless he was also a UK citizen.
Maybe you don’t realize that lots of nationalists would have nver been put on the register at birth , and now dur to GFA might put them themselves there in the fight/right with an Irish Passeport
No-one gets put on the register at birth: in the UK, the voting age is 18.
It’s not clear what point you are trying to make, I’m afraid.
RORY
Try flicking through the entire passport – and an examination of the British Nationality Act 1981 would also inform you as to the existence of the status of “British citizen”.
I think we should start calling Inishowen, Co.Donegal people “Northern northern Irish”. As it surely is impossible to have to go south to go to the north. It really should be down to “Northeastern Ireland” and “The rest of Ireland”.