Trimble gloats: I lasted four years as First Minister. He lasted one…
IT’S hard not to detect a strong element of schadenfreude in David Trimble’s assessment of DUP leader Ian Paisley’s demise. Having signed up to the legislative ‘twin’ of the Good Friday Agreement – the St Andrews Deal – the former first minister obviously feels his DUP successor has travelled a similar route to himself – but with less personal success. Accusing Paisley of having lost his credibility and the party of not having been ‘transparent’, Trimble added: “It has to be said that Ian Paisley has had quite an influence in Northern Ireland politics over the past four decades – from the ‘O’Neill Must Go’ phase to the ‘Trimble Out’ era. Most of it, however, has been negative, and when he was called upon to be positive, he failed to measure up. It’s one thing shouting from the political sideslines – it’s quite another thing actually governing a country. I lasted four years as First Minister. He lasted one. And I would ask a final question – would Terence O’Neill have shared power with the IRA while he was Prime Minister of Northern Ireland? I leave that one hanging in the air…”
‘allow the TUV to take over the Unionist cause’
Matters a damn who takes over . A lost cause is a lost cause in a 6 county NI. Now if the TUV put forward ‘repartition’ as their political objective they could create some blue water between themselves and their flawed unionist opponents and might do well. What other political ojjective could they possibly have ? Oh I know !Power sharing with Sinn Fein . But hang on a minute is’nt that what the UUP offer and the DUP deliver ?
Perhaps there’s something ‘rotten’ in the State of NI ? Not the whole idea of power sharing surely ?
‘I do not accept that politicians cannot have a moral anchor and in that regard I offer up the likes of Enoch Powell’
Enoch Powell was an integrationist . He did’nt really believe in a Stormont separate Assembly and he would have been totally opposed to any compulsory power sharing with SF or any other party . His views on the Union were very simple . You are either in it or out of it . Towards the end of his political career in NI Powell had developed a rather less than impressed view of the political ‘capabilities ‘ of his UUP colleagues.
As for his ‘moral anchor’ we’re still awaiting his ‘rivers of blood ‘ . The English prefer gardening it would appear ! Quite right too !
Greenflag
You are soooo funny.
Obviously, there has to be power sharing, but what about vision? Will there be any vision sharing? What about values? Will there be any value sharing?
Northern Ireland is a place apart, we have a shared history which makes us unique. We are not the same as the Irish, ask the Irish! We are not the same as the Scots, the Welsh, or heaven forbid the English, though we share some cultural background.
We are ourselves, use whatever name you want to describe us (I use Northern Irish myself) but we are only arguing with ourselves, nobody else is listening, never mind interested.
There will be no united Ireland until there is a united Northern Ireland and even then people may chose to maintain the status quo.
David Vance
Are you a member of TUV?
Turgon – “With Paisley after all the years of saying No people were genuinely surprised when he negotiated so few improvements to the Belfast agreement and then went back on his manifesto commitments.”
Agreed. Indeed, some of the changes which were made were designed to keep the DUP in power i.e. the leader of the largest party nominates the First Minister (even if that party does not represent the largest designation within the Assembly). The DUP will use this at the next election to warn about a Sinn Fein PIRA First Minister.
The DUP told us that 29 Notting Hill, Belfast (home of the RoI Government in Belfast) should be an official embassy, yet did nothing about it.
People in Northern Ireland can choose to have a foreign Republic of Ireland passport. The DUP talked about the rights of people in the RoI to British passports but did nothing about it.
The DUP (through the appointments to the victims commission) have betrayed victims by putting Sinn Fein PIRA murderers on the same level as their victims.
etc etc etc
So Turgon, you’re right that people were genuinely surprised when Paisley negotiated so few improvements. But they continue to be surprised at how ineffective the DUP are on important issues – after all the years of shouting.
Good to see you giving your tupenceworth Peace and Justice(Loyalist paramilitary style)
Smithsonian,
Am I a member of the TUV? No.
David Vance said
“I do not accept that politicians cannot have a moral anchor and in that regard I offer up the likes of Enoch Powell, Ronald Reagan and Lady Thatcher.”
Thatcher said we were as British as Finchley, then allowed the Irish govt a say in our affairs.
She promised to face down the dirty protesters / hunger strikers, then capitulated.
She acknowledged Enoch Powell as a mentor, then left him in the wilderness.
She said the British people were worried about immigration, then did nothing to stop it.
She was Education Secretary and wiped out the grammar schools in GB.
She complained about European federalist tendencies, then joined the ERM.
She allowed her son to do lucrative side deals during important talks (Saudi Arabia, 1980s).
Need I go on?
To Quiz Master – I know it’s terrible – us Unionists having the cheek to make comments on here. What next? As I have said on many occasions, I have never supported terrorism. But hey, don’t let that get in the way of your propaganda. Are you related to Chris Donnelly ref his Sinn Fein PIRA campaign about Stoneyford?
Quiz Master – “without Paisley there wouldnt have been the conditions for the IRA to exist.”
Whatever Paisley did or didn’t say, do you condemn the Sinn Fein PIRA death squads which caused such suffering?
Hawk,
Her instincts were sound but she had some very poor associates such as Heseltine, Pym, Clark, Patton etc. I also never said she was perfect, are you? But she was a giant compared to the pygmies that now abound.
At the time, I assumed that in taking the Nobel prize, Trimble had the will to at least try to punch above his weight. I now think that he is without honour and demeens the role of a Laureat. He only half did the job of First Minister, by which I mean he did not give it the time it required and did not get to the starting line in terms of forming effect working relationships with other parties. I mean you do not need to create ‘chuckle’ relationshops with chuckies to get the business done. Who knows how much further Ni might have travelled during his four years in power if he had given it his best shot?I also think it is significant that the Conservative Party have not found a role for him despoite his touting – very wise of them.
David
I’ve never understood how some unionists could be so forgiving of the PM who signed the Anglo Irish Agreement. Weren’t you incensed by it? Surely this should override any sympathy for Lady T, no?
Gonzo,
Of course, but check out who advised her. Thatcher was made of the right stuff, imperfect as she was. Compared to Major and Blair, she was very true to unionism. BTW – she has subsequently gone on record saying she regrets the AIA.
Perhaps the Turtle and the Croc can swap stories about how they sold out under pressure and both ended up on the political scrapheap.
At least Ozy and DUP Member have given us comedy value. Someone remind them that the support for their parties in the Dromore DEA actually FELL.
The DUP will lose many thousands of votes thanks to all the people who thought that by voting for the party they would keep Sinn Fein out of power. JA is best placed to hoover them up because he stuck to his principles whilst Trimble and Paisley betrayed their supporters for the world’s praise.
On the subject of Nobel Peace prizes I wonder if Papa will end up with one? And if he does, will he take it if “Deputy” gets one too?
David,
The other honourable gentlemen make a good point. Thatcher sold unionism down the river. And if you look at, as I’m sure you have, the way Thatcher ran her government, it’s very difficult to be convinced that she would have allowed political advisers to force her to do something she felt was wrong. Her tenure as PM ended because she was incapable of doing precisely that.
It’s hard to know where to start when assessing Reagan’s integrity, but a good place to start is to ask what he was doing selling weapons to Iran ? I guess you could point out that the man had imperfections, which is really what my whole point is – they all have imperfections, some of them pretty serious.
The problem with history is that it the aggregate of events or a person’s lifespan: not just entering joint government with a party he promised to smash but also how he got to this point. To be objective the man has the power of charisma: traits associated with other leaders of the world – good and bad: e.g. Hitler, Gandhi, Stalin, Christ the man, and Luther-King et al. He could funnel the fears of the few in the 1960s etc and amplify them for he thought was the voice of the silent majority. He may have frustrated O’Neil and the SDLP (Fitt et al) but was no doubt a boon to the fledgling Sinn Fein Party at the time by his frequent ‘them and us’ speeches. Judged against this history he is a total failure as he is in a power sharing government with Sinn Fein. The one time self-confessed IRA Commander Martin McGuinness MP MLA is his co-equal. His victories at the ballot box also show that he did not smash Sinn Fein in the eyes of the electorate nor of his colleagues but instead was their Loyalist recruiting sergeant by default.
Trixie
>>I assumed that in taking the Nobel prize, Trimble had the will to at least try to punch above his weight.< <
In the interests of bi-partisanship I suppose he had to be given the prize. Though he done absolutely nothing to deserve it.
>>Am I a member of the TUV? No.
Posted by David Vance<<
Might be a good idea though DV, all 20 members would triple your readership. However I suspect they may be a little too leftie and modern for you.
When auld Maggie finally shuttles off this mortle coil. Will a new devil be born to replace her?
Watchman I think the champagne corks were popping in Cunningham House because the UUP vote has stopped freefaliing and is now just plummeting..Ozy has been very quiet since we pointed out the facts hasn’t he/she?
”Obviously, there has to be power sharing, but what about vision? Will there be any vision sharing? ‘
Vision ? Television perhaps . Be realistic . NI does’nt need vision. It’s politicians have/had eyes and ears like those of other countries . The difference being NI politicians chose not to see what they did’nt want to see and ignored what they did’nt want to hear . The day that Northern Ireland produces a politician with vision will be the day that the almost blind koala bear climbs down from his eucalyptus tree and takes up rice farming!
‘What about values? Will there be any value sharing? ‘
I’d recommend the 10 commandments and the Sermon from the Mount but perhaps comimg from an atheist this ‘value’ advice might sound less than sincere. If this sounds like too much perhaps Catholics might keep the first five and the Protestants the last five . They could change around every 2 years just to relieve the monotony and give the other side a chance to sin differently ?
‘Northern Ireland is a place apart’
Oh yeh ? Apart from what ?
‘we have a shared history which makes us unique.’
There are many places around the world which are just as ‘unique’ in their own way . The Balkans is a good place to start looking for similar ‘unique’ qualities . BTW ‘unique’ is not necessarily a good thing . Two headed cows are also unique !
‘We are not the same as the Irish, ask the Irish!’ We are not the same as the Scots, the Welsh, or heaven forbid the English, though we share some cultural background.’
Brilliant. Vive la difference whatever it is .
‘We are ourselves, use whatever name you want to describe us ‘
I will
From now on I’ll use your own ‘unique ‘ suggestion .
‘Ourselves’
‘There will be no united Ireland until there is a united Northern Ireland and even then people may chose to maintain the status quo.’
As long as Mother England keeps paying the bills ye’ll be fine and ‘ourselves’ regardless of any constitutional arrangement .
Prince Eoghan,
Normal high standard of contribution from you I see. Interesting to think the TUV has twenty members, if so, that makes the Dromore bye-election result EVEN more impressive.
Comrade Stalins,
Imperfections are one thing – having no principles is another.
TUV has just 20 members? I read somewhere that its membership now stands at 600 and rising, about the same number of delegates on the UUC.
Dear dear Dave.
Lol! Ignoring the barb in comment. Ouch! an ego so large is all the easier to deflate! STRIKE!
Watchman
I don’t believe for a second that the revolutionary and forward looking TUV have only 20 members. The comment was directed at a certain 2nd rate downmarket blogs readership numbers, which have plummeted recently. LOL!
David,
I take it that, by your logic, when George W. Bush attacked the mighty Iraq, he was a titan of principle.
On the other hand, when he continued the Clinton policy of appeasement of republican terrorists, it was those terrible advisors again.
“Her instincts were sound but she had some very poor associates such as Heseltine, Pym, Clark, Patton etc. I also never said she was perfect, are you? But she was a giant compared to the pygmies that now abound.”
Posted by David Vance on Mar 09, 2008 @ 11:18 PM
Try this, David:
“Ian Paisley’s instincts were sound but he had some very poor associates such as IPJ, Eileen Paisley [or insert according to taste] etc. I also never said he was perfect, are you? But he was a giant compared to the pygmies that now abound.”
Prince Eoghan,
Having ATW called a downmarket blog by the likes of yourself is indeed a compliment. My thanks. Since registration we have further benefited from rising traffic and the removal of all trolls.
Hawk,
Liberaing Iraq was indeed a brave move. But Bush listened to the reptiles in US State, the sirens who also want to talk to Iran, so supporting the IRA in government, backed by the UK and Irish government was hardly a surprise! It was, and remains, morally wrong of course.
The Paisley analogy is cute – but of course the problem is that his Vichy instincts are found at every level in the Party. So he is a betrayer of his own stated principle, as is Padre Peter and the rest of the Dupes.
“the sirens who also want to talk to Iran,”
Yeah, how utterly contemptuous, the very notion of actually talking about problems instead of killing and bombing to sort such people out.
Ironically, this nasty little world-view is the outcome of a democratically expressed wish of people here – the utter rejection of armchair generals urging violence as the solution to all problems and all opposition. “Won’t get foooled again” comes to mind, for some reason.
Dave
>>Having ATW called a downmarket blog by the likes of yourself is indeed a compliment.< <
I knew I needn't name it, obvious innit!
>>Since registration we have further benefited from rising traffic < <
Aye, ootside yir windae perchance!
>>and the removal of all trolls.<<
The Reichstag was burnt to remove all unapproved ‘dissenting’ voices also, but you’ve kept the approved ‘kill em all’ xenophobic crazies………………a Pyhrric victory perhaps considering that numbers are well, well down?
Love how you reckon paisley was fine and dandy before he went all Vichy and actually dealt with Taigs.
..you mean, “Dealt with IRA scum” surely?
And the numbers are way up…so thanks for asking!