Did Hillary over state her role in the peace process?
Toby Harden flagged up what looks like it could shape up into a major faux pas by Hillary Clinton as she tries to claw herself back into the political game. The trouble for Mrs Clinton is that Harden now the Telegraph’s US correspondent spent a long time in Northern Ireland, and places the ‘town hall’ meeting with women from the Ormeau Road in the Lamp Lighter cafe on the Ormeau Road. And it’s been picked up by one of the big blogs of Democrat politics in the US, the Daily Kos It’s part of the former First Lady’s self proclaimed role as having “helped to bring peace” to Northern Ireland. Brian Feeney says she was ancillary, the ‘lead U.S. negotiator’ described her input as “helpful”. The PoliGazette notes, it is the exaggeration makes her vulnerable. If you have any recollections of Mrs Clinton’s input, let us have them (keep it legal).
This puts her in the proper place.
Oops….
This this.
Hillary never claimed the was a major player in the NI talks. She said ”I helped to bring peace to Northern Ireland“. As Brian Feeney said “she was ancillary” and Lord Trimble acknowledges that “[he] does not know there was much she did…”. Lord Trimble does not know everything Hillary did. Good of him to say so.
So Mick I don’t think it is a major faux pas
However minor her role (which I understand included attending/arranging women’s group meetings ) it is still more NI experience than Obama’s.
Hubbie’s bagman George was the operator, not Shrillary!
Actually Merrie,
Its O’Bama
She’s padding out her resume a little bit, which wouldn’t be a big deal but she’s the one who wanted to go negative so she can take any lumps. All she was in the North the first lady same as Laura Bush is. If you can’t blame Laura for the war in Iraq then Hilery doesn’t get credit for Bill’s foreign policy successes (depending on your view of the GFA of course).
What is the story here, please? How is this, whatever “this” is, expected to play among US voters?
Are US “Irish” voters expected to reject Rodham- Clinton because a sometime hack in a notoriously anti-Irish London newspaper attempts to belittle her presence as the wife of the then US president during his visit to Ireland?
How will this play in Alabama? Will the Telegraph assure their numerous readers there that Obama’s credentials are assuredly Danny Bhoy and will they then be ever more impressed?
Can it be that the Telegraph has begun to believe that the US electorate are as dumb as the last incumbent to the presidency that they allowed to assume office for the sake of domestic peace?
I do not have the answers to these questions but I am sure that there might be someone from Boston who knows all.
Rory,
I’m sure the Telegraph treats us Irish in
Alabama (Mobile BTW) with as much comtempt as they treat you.
Rory:
I like the way Harndon headlined his article: “Nobel winner…”. Yes, gives a good spin and authority to Trimble and that’s accurate but perhaps not as apposite as:
“Former UUP leader who lost his seat and those of all but one of his party… due to his seriously idiotic handling of the NI peace process”. Trimble was nowhere near a “wee bit silly”.
I have been reading Harndon’s reports regularly over the past few weeks and he is an Obama man. He likes the happy company on Barack’s bandwagon and says it is a sign Obama will win, cf Hillary’s alleged in-fighting band.
I am surprised that Harndon as a seasoned reporter can say that because in my experience and those of others there is always a lot of in-fights within campaigns amongst the minions whether they are in a winning team or not. The very enjoyable book “Primary Colors” has a pretty good description of this.
I would say the Clintons input into the “peace prosess” was fairly extensive and influential, so why shouldn’t Hilary use that to help her quest, no problem here, good luck to her or whosoever takes over from Bush as he has had little to no influence on the ver same process.
The Democratic electorate reads the Kos….Read it a bit yourself and make your own decision on what a sad situation we have in politics these days. Most of the US doesn’t give a second thought to anything involving white Europeans, so the Telegraph speaks to very few adults in the US. These libs are horrible little children and the race baiters are propping Obama up for a victory, or else. If Hillary wins the nomination, after the riots quiet down (in the anti-2nd Amendment states), it won’t matter if McCain wins or Hillary prevails, it’s gonna be bad for the US. But not nearly as bad as it would be if BO is elevated. I’m standing on the sidelines, making sure all my assets are in the BOI.
But not nearly as bad as it would be if BO is elevated. I’m standing on the sidelines, making sure all my assets are in the BOI.
Fill us in here, Bob. What’s the BO and what’s the BOI ?
Barack Obama? Bank of Ireland?
Mick,
It seems even you cannot resist putting the boot into Mrs Clinton, when Obama was well behind Clinton, would you have wrote he was trying to claw himself back into the political game. I doubt it?
Yet now the two are pretty even and both candidates have all to play for you and the rest of the media pack can not resist a swift kick in Hilly’s balls in the hope of kick starting Obama’s momentum.
Still I suppose it saves the media from doing the job and asking Obama just what he intends changing. Or could it be that the right believes McCann will have a chance of beating Obama, but will have a far harder fight with Clinton.
I have many souveniers/photos of ‘women’s events’of which Hilary Clinton was the catalyst (and main speaker). I also stood on the Ormeau Rd to watch her when she visited Joyce McCartan in the Limelighter. I remember thinking how stereotypical the staged photo in the Belfast Telegraph of Mrs Clinton holding up a pot of tea to symblolise her engagement with Joyce and the women of NI. I think her role was to bolster the confidence of women in a context where there was little room for them at the decision-making table and it is impossible to quantify how she helped our spirits in such a frustrating situation.Trimble’s lack of understanding concerning women and equality,given his leading role in his own party and the whole country,was part of the problem – it is not at all surprising therefore that he underestimates the role that the first Lady played.
Despite acknowledging and being grateful to Hilary Clinton,in my heart I want Obama to win the presidency!
Thank you Granni Trixie. These events you mention must have been overlooked by Harndon when he was reporting from NI.
“…she visited Joyce McCartan in the Limelighter”.
She was on Ormeau Avenue as well – which band was she watching?!
Hillary’s Joyce McCartan Memorial Lecture
She came here and listened to people as did her husband for ALL his faults. They gave so much time to the North and the sarky bitterness is just anti Clinton rhetoric. NO her input was NOT overstated. I hope she gets the Democratic nomination because if Barak wins it will unite the racists and condemn the States to 4 more years of right wing rule AND the world to even more misery. She is the ONLY Democratic candidate capable of winning, that’s terrible to say and NOT a slur on Obama but a fact of life. Sinister elements in the U.S. will simply NOT tolerate a black President and you would honestly fear for Barak Obama if he won the nomination. Many respected commenatators in the States and Britain have already said this.
Barack Obama? Bank of Ireland?
Correctomundo.
Obama has no CV for the job of POTUS. This assassination bullsh**, race baiting crap is all he has. Along with the empty headed, starry eyed, gloms he has following him around until they faint. His skin color has nothing to do with his experience, of which he has none. He was elected only because of a divorce sex scandal his opponent was going through. Hillary is a control freak , power hungry, ‘don’t do as I do, do as I say’ crackpot. Not that bright, and attached to her weirdo husband. Those who follow the whole ‘I am woman’ crap are the same bunch who fight for abortions for minors without parental consent, under the guise of ‘choice’. Truly a despicable lot.
Contrary to the pro-Obama spins, Hillary does have some valid claim to experience in international relations.
This report from the BBC gives more detail of some of Hillary’s involvement in NI: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/17711.stm
The last paragraph reports on her visit to Dublin and her participation in a closed seminar at Chequers when a guest of the British PM and his wife:
“ Before her arrival in Belfast, Mrs Clinton visited Dublin where she was guest of honour at a government dinner hosted by the Prime Minister, Bertie Ahern. At the end of the trip Mrs Clinton will fly to London, where she will join Tony Blair and his wife, Cherie, at the Prime Minister’s rural Buckinghamshire retreat at Chequers. There she will participate in a closed seminar on shared policy perspectives and common challenges on both sides of the Atlantic.“
Bill was not with his wife on this trip.
I have just noticed a headline in a US paper equating Mrs Obama with Jacqueline Kennedy. Oh my. The Obama spin is really in overdrive. Michelle is OK, she is fine as Michelle. Jackie is a different person altogether, but the young people supporting Barack will not know that as many were born after J died and none would have known her as First Lady.
Thanks Nevin for links to the Joyce McCartan lecture which will go in my arcive.Let me reiterate however that although I do see that Hilary Clinton played an inestimable part in helping NI through a crucial time,I find the manipulation of stereotypical images of ‘women across the divide’ ‘chatting’ having ‘tea around a table’ corney and irritating.
In one way jaw,jaw has been womens preferred option in NI. But what about the Mairead Farrells of this world? What about those of us who wanted to break through the glass ceiling within political parties? And, given the week that is in it, I was insulted that SF used Mairead Farrell to represent the best of women for international womens day. Why not simply say that for Republican women alone she is an ideal? Or appeal to humanity because she was shot in cold blood and her family deserve sympathy?
I hope I do not digress too much but I am trying to follow a logical thread…that women in Ni have differences and cannot be characterised by the teapot or their “courage” in planting bombs.
latcheeco: “I’m sure the Telegraph treats us Irish in Alabama (Mobile BTW) with as much comtempt as they treat you. ”
Deepest condolences… spent a week one there one Saturday, groomsman in an August wedding.
Mick Hall: “Still I suppose it saves the media from doing the job and asking Obama just what he intends changing. Or could it be that the right believes McCann will have a chance of beating Obama, but will have a far harder fight with Clinton. ”
Conventional wisdom runs counter to this — Hillary has higher negatives and McCain polls consistantly higher than Hillary, but is only competitive with Obama.
Of course, this is the now, when Obama is getting frustrated at having been asked more than eight questions at a time and not really been mussed yet… time will tell.
Lurig: “I hope she gets the Democratic nomination because if Barak wins it will unite the racists and condemn the States to 4 more years of right wing rule AND the world to even more misery. She is the ONLY Democratic candidate capable of winning, that’s terrible to say and NOT a slur on Obama but a fact of life. Sinister elements in the U.S. will simply NOT tolerate a black President and you would honestly fear for Barak Obama if he won the nomination. Many respected commenatators in the States and Britain have already said this. ”
Obama is a light-weight, politically — arguably, he’s the anti-Gore — he give good speech, but has no real accomplishments, either in Illinois or in the US Senate. All he has done is talk a good game, thus far, and win states that he like as not wouldn’t win in a general election. Illinois politics are arguably one of the last bastions of old-school machine politics, where the Daley boys still use Nixon ballots for scratch-paper.
I noticed this over the weekend, and since the topics been brought up I’ll throw my question to the masses. Can anybody identify this mysterious Mr McDevitt cited in the original Telegraph report? He seems to be on the Trimble side of play, but there’s no explanation of his role…
“Once a peace deal was in place, Mrs Clinton supported women politicians and was always available if they visited Washington “to give them a pat on the back, give them moral support”, he added.
“So in a classic woman politicky sort of way I think she was active.”"
Hmmmm, a classic woman politicky sort of way; if I was him I’d spend the rest of my days praying I never found myself alone in a room with Mrs C.
Conall McDevitt is described as a negotiator and Hume aide
Dread
I give little credence to polls these days and I do not feel it will be to far in the future when a massive scandal breaks out about how these polling companies are easily manipulated.
I was hoping for some input about the lack of the media attention on exactly what Obama intends to change.
It is not healthcare, nor Iraq, which are the two big issues in this election and it is certainly not the way the economy is run, so in fact it will be no change at all, agreed? For if he had claimed he wished to make real changes of a progressive type the US media would have crucified him by now.
By the way the reason I believe McCain may beat Obama and not Clinton is because the mass of the US working classes will not vote for Obama due to his closeness to capital and his refusal to bring in a health care program free at point of need.
Obama is a carbon copy of Tony Blair, little history thus no baggage, hungry for power and adulation, thick, vain and easily manipulated but crafty as hell, he admires those with great wealth and believes all things spring from them, thus when push comes to shove he will never go against the power elite. Ah he is also a religious nut who within a week of being in the White House will believe God speaks to him personally, although he will not have the balls to tell anyone, until he leaves office, when he will claim he is to become a trapist monk, in between working for multi national companies and solving the Iraq problem that has bankrupted the US economy.
By the way I am beginning to wonder whether there might be a neo-con school for these types, Blair in the UK, Obama in the US, Sarkozy in French and Putin’s man in Russia. They all seem to rise to prominence totally unnoticed, leaving no trace and the next minute they have the top job, although I suppose this tells us more about us stupid fucks who vote for them. Is it any wonder the wold is in such a mess when we have the most dim witted electorate every, Jackie Kennedy my arse
Mick Hall:
>> stupid fucks who vote for them
Yes, that is true. You may not recall all the rosy promises that George W made (he was pretty forgettable even then), but you may recall Ronald Reagan – vague but happy, able to instil “hope” among the electorate and who fell asleep at most meetings after he become president. Reagan was immensely popular in the USA.
The US electorate does not have a very good memory for vague hopeful promises not becoming reality. So I think it will do it again – unless the Democrats can keep Barack from becoming their candidate. Note that many of Barack’s supporters are independents plus a few discontented Republicans who fondly remember those glory days of Reagan perhaps.
“bringing together for the first time Catholics and Protestants from both traditions”
Sounds a bit like a very damaging statement.
From Nevin’s link:
“Conall McDevitt, who served as the chief negotiator during the Good Friday Agreement talks that ended the conflict between England and Northern Ireland”
Thanks Conall.
merrie
You make some good points, I just cannot get my head around how non democratic party members can vote in the primaries for a democratic candidate. Surly that is abuse of the system waiting to occur, i e indies and republicans can play a role in who, or more likely who will not be the DP candidate. Or have I got this all wrong?
Mick Hall:
No, you haven’t got it wrong. It is one of the stupid things about the US Democrat Party’s preselection process. And yes, abuse of the system is very possible. Some primaries (voting) are closed, others are open. It is inconsistent from state to state.
The other thing I think is undemocratic is the caucus system in that it does not match the general presidential election. A whole bunch of people have to turn up and wait for hours and then go to the corner of the room for whoever they are voting for and get counted. Most Americans do not have the time to wait around for hours. But students do. And guess where Barack gets most of his support? And guess who has won nearly all of the caucuses? It was the basis of those wins he had between February 5 and last week.
And yes, anyone can turn up for many of these caucuses – Democrat, indie, Republican, Nadarist, al Queda supporter and so forth. I am not sure if you have to live in the area to be eligible to turn up though – hopefully you are, otherwise there is even more chance of abuse of the caucus system waiting to occur if it hasn’t occurred already.
Another thing about the Democrat system is the allocation of delegates. It’s done proportionately but on a geographical basis. Thus in Nevada, one of the few caucus elections Hillary won, Barack got more delegates than she did. Ditto Texas, which has a mix of voting and caucuses where Hillary won the popular vote but Barack won the caucuses and also more delegates. Apparently in Texas you can vote, then roll up to a caucus so you can be counted twice!!!
Then there is the banning of delegates from Michigan and Florida because those states decided to hold their primaries early. Hillary won both of these by a wide margin. If they hold new elections or replace them with caucuses it is going to be costly – and probably costly to HIllary if a caucus is run. If both of these states’ delegates were counted, Hillary would be ahead of Barack by around 30 delegates.
The system stinks. It is not Democratic.
I don’t think that the Democrat National Committee went out of its way to penalise Hillary but that is how it has turned out.
Did Hillary overstate her role well who knows, but one thing for sure is her role was infinitely greater than that of Obama.
I would very much like to see the Republicans out of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Obama is an utter gamble. We know little about him nor do we know what exactly he intends to change or how.
Given Rezko we can question his judgement. His past connections the nuclear industry, funding and subsequent adjustment of proposed legislation would suggest hypocrisy comes easily to him. That Mr Obama claims that this is one of his successes merely further illustrates his dubious moral compass.
His one awkward press conference shows that he is useless under even the slightest pressure.
Then we have his half brother the rebel leader in Kenya who is an extreme Muslim with far left views.
Now does anyone seriously think the American electorate will elect this man after the Republican machine is finished with him?
Vote for B. O. but don’t complain if he turns out to be is less than fragrant.
Mick Hall, it’s curious to see you leaning for the establishment canditate and someone who Murdock has backed
It’s an echo of Hilery’s attitude that Obama’s supporters are just dumb wayward children who can’t think for themselves. I mean don’t they realise they can’t win, nobody will vote for an uppity black and anyway, bunch of leftist lunatics and he’s the most left wing senator, how dare they eh Mick?
Merrie,I agree blame them feckin students it’s all their fault.Sure didn’t Hilery have tea with Joyce Mc Cartan and why there’s not been a cumman named after her and Bill is beyond me.
Actually when you see the caucus in action it’s democracy at its rawest.Not all states are open btw (penn. is closed to just registered dems.)and if you voted in one you’re excludeD from any other.Crat your Moslem comment isn’t worth answering
Dread,
Tut, tut it’s Sweet Home Alabama, Big parade on Saturday:)
Merrie,
The Florida and Michigan primaries were the only large states where the Republican turnout was higher than the Democrat.What does that say given everywhere else had record crowds? Many dem’s did not vote because it didn’t count. Hilery is welching on the agreement that the results wouldn’t stand because they broke the rules. She might win Florida but Jesse Jackson has previously won in Michigan so she might not get what she’s after there.
Latcheeco
I am not supporting either candidate, as I said in another post to slugger, the best I hope for is the one who will do the least damage.
To even suggest that Obama is the most left wing senator is childish nonsense, the fact is even if he were, which he is not, he has not been in the place long enough for us to make a real judgement.
Instead of pulling out silly old chestnuts like uppity blacks if you are an Obama supporter why not answer some of the worries people like me have.
Obama is standing for President, he will be the most powerful man in the world, yet we have not heard a word about what he intends to change, this man uses the word change in exactly the same way that Blair used the word reform. and we all know where that led us. Both mens purpose is to lull gullible progressive into believing in them.
To conclude I cannot believe you are using terms like uppity blacks when you are talking to me, remind me who is Bush’s Secretary of State. Ethnicity has nothing to do with my low opinion of Obama, imo he is just another opportunist politician on the make who will not in a billion years take on the power elite in the USA, but he will do their bidding.
Two years in Washington, a few as a local representative, yet he can afford to buy a million plus home, nice work if you can get it, I take it you and the rest of the progressives who are supporting him will not be asking him to live on the US average wage.
Oh Mick!
In America (and this is unfortunate) you do what you have to do to get elected. “Childish nonsense” depends on your view of where left is? Its subjective. Being Michael Foot doesn’t work here either. The masses don’t see themselves as working class they see themselves rightly or wrongly as middle class. Apologies if I’m wrong but your tone sounded a bit high handed given you live in a country paying prince charlie’s wages. So we’re not the only idiot electorate around!He has been named as the most liberal senator on his voting record: that is a fact (I think it was an congress in house bipartisan poll). What is going to happen if he doesn’t get elected? Answer= nothing. What are the other options? Clinton/McCain?
So young yet so cynical. The Labour party has a lot to answer for
Like it or not he is the most progressive and if slick works for him, oh well. His opposition to Hil’s health care is on practicality because it will cause even more misery for the poor not unlike the poll tax did.You seem to have a visceral hatred of American pols.Fair enough, but there was no evil in the world before them damn yanks came along and ruined everything.They are corrupt, but where are they less corrupt, its just a question of scale? He may not be a lefty by your yardstick but he is here and wishful thinkin won’t get anybody anywhere. I don’t see how Cinton is a better option than a former community organiser from the south side of Chicago.No matter how cynical you are about him, big business is backing her.The masses here see themselves as middle not working class, that can’t be changed.The communards aren’t going to be storming the barricades here anytime soon. They don’t do socialism not even in the unions here ( apparently they don’t do it anywhere else either) . The mindset here is different.It’s capitalist with workers rights or without and that’s the view of the people.
This may sound like a cop out but the best strategy for him is not to get caught in the weeds by details because a large part of the electorate is fickle here and soundbites can kill a campaign ( remember flipflopper) rather than generally entrenched as it is there.But talking to your enemies and getting out of Iraq are radical to most of these punters. The uppity wasn’t directed at you personally so apologies for any offence but its been an undercurrent/whisper against him here despite massive evidence to the contrary. BTW Trimble just made MSNBC this second they are quoting him as nobel prize winner who is poo-pooing Hil’s contribution in the North. “A wee bit silly” never thought I’d agree with that twat but there you go they lobbied for him and lowered the integrity of the prize and now he bites them in the arse.
latcheeco
The mention of his wider family will be a consideration with a percentage of the electorate, bound to be, that is reality, and don’t think the Republicans are not going to make an issue of security. Clinton’s 3 a.m. ad will be child’s play by comparison.
I could have mentioned the NAFTA fiasco which simply proved yet again his total insincerity, but it was worse than that. Imagine telling a foreign government look don’t listen to what I am saying at home, I don’t mean a word of it, honest trust me??? Is this naivety or stupidity, right now I just cannot make up my mind, certainly it shows lack of experience and utter cynicism.
There is nothing about this man that would lead one to believe he is either left wing or progressive. His track record does not support such claims and I am amused by his purchase from Rezko of a piece of land for his back yard. Amazingly Rezko sold it at a fraction of what he paid for it. In Ireland we are all too familiar with that sort of activity.
Mick Hall
he is just another opportunist politician on the make
I fear you are probably right. He has not undergone adequate scrutiny by the press. A lot of idealism is being directed towards what will probably turn out to be a dud.
McCain V Obama is the probability how depressing, anyone else standing?
There are times when I think the American people would vote in a kitten if it looked cuddly.
Crat cheers for the reply. He is still the best candidate. The Clintons gave out pardons to crooks who donated money to them and they play just as dirty as the repubs. The republican attack machine is no worse than theirs.McCain is dodgy over lobbists. Obama is not the worst of the three.
Denis Kucinich aint ever gettin elected in this country, sad but true and Obama is closest to him.
I’d rather vote for a kitten than have a queen or have Paisley as first minister
(btw which most voted for by default).And Bertie’s no paragon either (glass houses and all). The moslem thing is already being done(by Hil. incidently) and there is a dumb ass constituency that will buy it but by and large this year there are too many other issues that weren’t as overiding as gays gettin married in ’04 (excuse the pun).
Actually Crat, the Clintons were as guilty of smoothing Canadian feathers over Nafta as Obama was.Qui Bono from the Canadian leak/lie? Oh yeah the people that brought in Nafta or maybe the country that is worried that OBama might change it.How strange?Obama got flat footed because he’s learning, thats all.Do you really think Hilery has more integrity than him?( of course she has, sure didn’t she descend on the North and bring peace). The guy is making a career out of politics and shooting for the top job and hopes to do some good along the way. How dare he? BTW his wife is also a successful lawyer, a kid from the ghetto that went to Princton so I’m guessing she makes good money too.
Ralph Nader will never get elected here, not ever.Again they don’t do socialism so whatareyagonnado vote for failure and get nothing done with people backed by Rupert Murdoch or take a chance?
BTW on the million plus home.Thats in dollars. He a U.S. Senator ffs. A small terraced house in Belfast costs 150,000 pounds or about $250,000. Keep it in perspective. Half this country got million plus homes thats why the economy is in crisis
Mick Hall: “I give little credence to polls these days and I do not feel it will be to far in the future when a massive scandal breaks out about how these polling companies are easily manipulated.”
Too late — already is out there — silly things like over-sampling Democrats and sampling “adults” rather than likely voters… strangely enough, the press is oddly mute… then again, it is the press that commissions these same biased / bent polls… funny thing that.
Hope you’re not holding your breath waiting for the press to report their own malfeasance…
Mick Hall: “I was hoping for some input about the lack of the media attention on exactly what Obama intends to change.”
Whilst I was working on my advanced degree, one of my friends, a journalism major, told me an interesting statistic — something on the order of two thirds of his fellow journalism majors wanted to enter the profession “to change the world.”
Obama is preaching to the choir, Mick. Why would they question their own core beliefs?
Mick Hall: “By the way the reason I believe McCain may beat Obama and not Clinton is because the mass of the US working classes will not vote for Obama due to his closeness to capital and his refusal to bring in a health care program free at point of need.”
I don;t think that the election hinges on any one issue, let alone a pie-in-the-sky giveaway — the money has to some from somewhere — *nothing* is free, even if the government tells you it is. As for the rest of your statement, it is the same as corporate taxes — corporations never really pay taxes — their customers do. The corporation just get to collect the taxes, collect a little interest, then transfer the money to the gov’t.
Mick Hall: “By the way I am beginning to wonder whether there might be a neo-con school for these types, Blair in the UK, Obama in the US, Sarkozy in French and Putin’s man in Russia. They all seem to rise to prominence totally unnoticed, leaving no trace and the next minute they have the top job, although I suppose this tells us more about us stupid fucks who vote for them. Is it any wonder the wold is in such a mess when we have the most dim witted electorate every, Jackie Kennedy my arse
”
I would tend to disagree — at least in so far as Putin’s sock-puppet is not really the same as the others. Likewise, I wouldn’t put Obama in the same category as Sarko — Sarko had a plan… a pity the French want a pipe-dream, not a plan.
He does resemble smiling Tony — all sizzle, no steak.
latcheeco: “Tut, tut it’s Sweet Home Alabama, Big parade on Saturday:)”
Feh… Give me Oxford, Lafayette County, the Egg Bowl and Off-Square books any day of the week and twice on game-days.
Merrie: “Yes, that is true. You may not recall all the rosy promises that George W made (he was pretty forgettable even then), but you may recall Ronald Reagan – vague but happy, able to instil “hope” among the electorate and who fell asleep at most meetings after he become president. Reagan was immensely popular in the USA.”
Then again, the alternative was Carter, who was, despite being a nuke, was as useful as a screen door on a submarine.
Merrie: “No, you haven’t got it wrong. It is one of the stupid things about the US Democrat Party’s preselection process. And yes, abuse of the system is very possible. Some primaries (voting) are closed, others are open. It is inconsistent from state to state.”
Some of it is the states, such as in Texas, where there is no party affiliation, iirc — you register as a voter, not in a party. But most of it is the Democratic party — they get to set the rules for the primaries, right down to kow-towing to Iowa and NH.
Crataegus: “The mention of his wider family will be a consideration with a percentage of the electorate, bound to be, that is reality, and don’t think the Republicans are not going to make an issue of security. Clinton’s 3 a.m. ad will be child’s play by comparison.”
Oh, the best ads the Republicans come up with usually are supplied by the Democrats — Al Gore was the first one to drag the proto-Willie Horton issue against Dukakis, f’rinstance.
Obama’s problem is that he’s a light-weight who whines about having to answer questions.
Crataegus: “I could have mentioned the NAFTA fiasco which simply proved yet again his total insincerity, but it was worse than that. Imagine telling a foreign government look don’t listen to what I am saying at home, I don’t mean a word of it, honest trust me??? Is this naivety or stupidity, right now I just cannot make up my mind, certainly it shows lack of experience and utter cynicism.”
As a minimum, it means he and his team aren’t ready to move from the lounge to the big stage… but, then, given the back-biting and in-fighting of the Clinton cadre, is there that much of a choice?
It’s my first time on this blog. I wandered over from DailyKos where there has been much discussion over the last few days on Hillary citing Northern Ireland as one of her examples of foreign policy experience. The quote from David Trimble has received much play. To counter that some Clinton supporters are quoting John Hume:
“I am quite surprised that anyone would suggest that Hillary Clinton did not perform important foreign policy work as First Lady. I can state from firsthand experience that she played a positive role for over a decade in helping to bring peace to Northern Ireland.
She visited Northern Ireland, met with very many people and gave very decisive support to the peace process. There is no doubt that the people of Northern Ireland think very positively of Hillary Clinton’s support for our peace process, due to her visits to Northern Ireland and her meetings with so many people. In private she made countless calls and contacts, speaking to leaders and opinion makers on all sides, urging them to keep moving forward.
Anyone criticizing her foreign policy involvement should look at her very active and positive approach to Northern Ireland and speak with the people of Northern Ireland who have the highest regard for her and are very grateful for her very active support for our peace process.”
I thought that John Hume was in such ill health, that it was unlikely that he would make any public statement. Someone suggested that the statement may have been made by his wife. What do you think?
Apparently, the Hume statement was issued by HRC’s headquarters. Is that not a bit odd? See http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hume-and-trimble-clash-over-clintons-peace-role-1311181.html
latchheco
The point is that Clinton is not selling herself as the Archangel Gabriel Obama is and as you say he lacks experience. With regards Cui Bono game set and match to Canada.
Will Obama withdraw troops from Iraq, no he is talking about tens of thousands in ‘support’ roles.
I am less than impressed with McCain also but like Dread believe that Clinton is a more solid opponent. The problem with Obama types is their support disapears very quickly if he comes under pressure. He will come under sustained attack and we have seen just how poor he is at dealing with a few questions from the Chicago press about Rezko.
In reality economics in the USA is more likely to dictate policy than who is elected.
Nader will get less than 1%. Pity there is not strong alternatives.
Dread
Agree very light weight and worryingly little is known about him and he is very selective in what he makes public. He would be a lot stronger 4-8 years on once he has some real standing and provided there are no skeletons.
Leckavrea
No not really that odd, is it? What would have been odd is Clintons team releasing Trimbles statement.
But back to basics there is absolutely no doubt that her involvement in NI Peace Process was infinitely greater than Obamas as his, on this and many other issues, has been zero.
Latch
Almost all that you wrote could have come straight out of the 1997 new labour hand book, things like progressive legislation will cause even more misery for the economically poor. Just how would a universal health care program free at the point of need cause more misery for the working classes?
I believe in all probability you are typical of the neo liberals who are attaching themselves to Obama, Dread is correct the man is all sizzle and no steak, which suits the US power elite perfectly, as they will program him on the job.
As to Obama being a former community organizer from the south side of Chicago, come on this tosh, working one evening a month in a community law office hardly makes you a community organizer and such tosh does not even wash with US Blacks let alone an angry old lefty like me. What did he organize and who, his fellow workers on wall street, I think not.
As to US working class people believing themselves to be middle class, oh really, none that I have come across do, when I was a trade union organizer back in the 1980s I had regular contact with the baggage handlers who worked at US airports, especially those at Detroit and Minneapolis, they new exactly who they were and what class they belonged to by looking at their pay cheque each week.
By the way, if Obama is such a great liberal, how come the US media has left him alone, you know why, it is because he is not, as you said in your last post he will be what every it takes to gain and maintain himself in power; and in a country like the USA that means dancing to corporate america or taking them on head first and a nice middle class boy like Obama, who has not fought a single political battle in his whole life, is not about to start doing so when he approaches middle age, life just aint like that.
Mick,
All no doubt crucial to the proletariat.
“Neo-libreal” who makes that shite up some clown in some polysoc dept. writing an essay? Who is a better choice than Obama? Hilery did not even have national security clearance in the white house so where is her experience from? By that logic you might as well say Barbara Bush is qualified with two sons and a husband(it wasn’t at night talking to Bill cause he couldn’t even stand her and was never home). I can only go on my own experience and they interpret the phrase working class as a slur. That must have been a nice gig the workers of the world were paying for flying you to the States
Mick,
She is not planning a European/Canadian style health service. She is planning to dock wages to pay for insurance and if you don’t /can’t pay you’re fined. It’s the system they have in Mass. and in reality it hurts the poor even more.
Mick Hall: “As to Obama being a former community organizer from the south side of Chicago, come on this tosh, working one evening a month in a community law office hardly makes you a community organizer and such tosh does not even wash with US Blacks let alone an angry old lefty like me. What did he organize and who, his fellow workers on wall street, I think not. ”
Except that it *is* washing wtih African Americans. Oddly enough, Obama is picking up the tails of the diversity curve — places so lily-white that the notion of “diversity” on a racial basis is knowing a black lawyer or a Haispanic doctor and those places with high African American populations.
What he is not winning are those areas where diversity is neither a nearly abstract concept or a fait accompli. These would appear to include large blue states. What he is winning are caucases, where higher motivation counts for more than numbers.
Mick Hall: “By the way, if Obama is such a great liberal, how come the US media has left him alone, you know why, it is because he is not, as you said in your last post he will be what every it takes to gain and maintain himself in power; and in a country like the USA that means dancing to corporate america or taking them on head first and a nice middle class boy like Obama, who has not fought a single political battle in his whole life, is not about to start doing so when he approaches middle age, life just aint like that. ”
The media types are drinking the kool-aid, Mick Hall… the *REAL* question, ala Jonestown, is whether Obama is drinking the kool-aid, too. Between us, I think we have two votes that he’s not…
Latcheeco: “She is not planning a European/Canadian style health service. She is planning to dock wages to pay for insurance and if you don’t /can’t pay you’re fined. It’s the system they have in Mass. and in reality it hurts the poor even more”
Seeing as more than half of the “poor” in Mass haven’t signed up for the program, how can we be sure?
“That must have been a nice gig the workers of the world were paying for flying you to the States
All no doubt crucial to the proletariat.”
Latcheeco
It is absolutely crucial for working people to organize across national borders as US workers know to their cost, Capital organizes globally, so to must the trade unions and others who are there to defend the workers best interest.
I doubt you would have given a thought to business people flying around the world at the companies expense, just doing their job you would say and rightly so, but when it is a trade unionist you make a smart arsed remark and you claim you and Obama have the best interest of working people at heart. Cause you do old son.
Mick,
I’m a neo-liberal but you’re all sensitive and touchy? Sorry to disappoint but unions there by the eighties were all bought and paid for (often by junkets and internationale themed fact finding tours) being a union rep. has always been seen as a cushy number. It’s an old ruse of throwing a few crumbs to buy off the bright ones. I’m not holding the bag for big business but it has always struck me that you can’t really have workers rights without workers can you? So its a balance. Placards written by people with ologies doesn’t usually tend to get anybody in the ghetto anywhere does it?And business tends to generate workers doesn’t it? Unless we’re living in utopia of course but then that wouldn’t be any fun because in utopia there’s no struggle to struggle for.
Again, who is better than Obama in this race? Abstention from your own government is sinning by omission so we have to choose one. She voted for the war in Iraq to look hawkish and everybody knows it, he had the balls to say no and you can’t get round that with “Hilery’s more meat” crap. She said she would not meet Chavez etc. He said he would talk to his enemies. Your main arguement seems to be better the murdoch supported devil you know. Well i say feck the devil you know cause it hasn’t worked so far and if we’re wrong what have we lost? All those years of socialist betrayal have made you too cynical. It’s not wooley idealism Mick trust me. I’ve has glorious failure up to the balleeks and its not for me. No hard feelins btw