Mairead Farrell a Trojan Horse?
Given how ridiculous the idea of celebrating Mairead Farrell at Stormont was, which even the most devoted Sinn Fein supporter had trouble getting their heads around as a great idea, was the whole thing a trojan horse to arrive at this destination instead, which has already had a test-run in Limavady?
SF may seek to ban unionist symbols at Stormont and SF anger over IRA commemoration ban
Or is that just a face-saving exercise after a spectacularly daft suggestion?
What do you think of the tactic of pursuing “neutral space” – is it worth the bother, does it have any true meaning, is it a whitewash, rather than a co-writing of, of a shared history, is it a petulant idea, or a responsible one? Is there a difference between a shared space and a neutral one? Does this have any relevance to ordinary people’s lives? Is it a chimera for real progress, much like the arguments over symbols on the PSNI’s caps or flags in City Hall closets were? Or is it the sort of groundwork that reflects progress?
thanks willow, now we know, the only history that matters is the unionist ‘version’.
Good man.
Willowfield you seem to be cacooned in your own wee world and if your views are prevelant then I honestly think that this is an issue which could sadly go on well past its sell by date.
I did not allude to any thing remotely near what your perception is, of what I stated in relation to Joe Devlin
James Connolly was one of the most important people who shaped republican, socialist politics in Ireland as well as being one of the main trade unioinist figures in the country.
As to Winifred Carney being obscure and no noe having heard of her Ithink thats a sad reflection as she was the first Sinn Féin representitive to stand in East Belfast she also a prominant memeber of the ITGWU in Belfast as well as being a memeber of the Irish Citizen Army.
You atste that republicans are not very important in the history of this state.
I would say you’re wrong there as one such republican who by his own admission was the OC of the Derry Brigade of the IRA at one point is presently your Deputy First Minister, so Iwould say he and the republican movement are fairly important in the present day set up in Stormont.
THE SHADOW
er ever hear of irony?
Yes, last time this issue was discussed on this site (in relation to Nationalist symbols at Belfast City Hall- or, to be precise, the distinct lack of), one of the Unionist bloggers here decided a bust of Gerry Fitt would be anappropriate concession to the city’s other community.
Quite. As much as I disagree with what Fitt came to stand for, I don’t necessarily think that recognising him in Stormont is necessarily a bad thing: simply inadequate. Things are that imbalanced at Stormont that a range of Nationalist figures need recognised, and that includes some with who Unionism is going to be uncomfortable with.
It’s not lie we aren’t. There’s a statue of Carson there FFS!
Peace&Justice;Edwin Poots doesn’t have any responsbility over the flying of the Union Flag over public buildings. That’s controlled by the Flags Order and a reserved matter.
Frankly I think its quite good that Poots was off telling the Irish Language People that they don’t have a chance of getting their little Act.. Good on him.
Let’s be specific then.
We know that Carson’s statue isn’t coming down so that means we have to erect another one, same scale and all that.
So who? Someone from the same era? Collins?
Someone from the modern era? If it has to be an IRA leader, Adams is ruled out. Who then?
Rumour has it that the Unionists may if pushed make an exeption and possibly accept a statue of Denis Donaldson, Freddie Scappaticci or Roy Mc Shane.
Sure were’nt they all nearly on the same side
“You don’t get to pick for us.”
And you don’t get to ignore the majority verdict that Northern Ireland remains part of the UK. That’s part of accepting consent and the logical outcome is that symbols which represent NI’s constitutional status within the UK are legitimate whereas their nationalist equivalents are not. Hard luck.
And you don’t get to ignore the majority verdict that Northern Ireland remains part of the UK. That’s part of accepting consent and the logical outcome is that symbols which represent NI’s constitutional status within the UK are legitimate whereas their nationalist equivalents are not. Hard luck.
I don’t believe I did, though Nationalism has negotiated those symbols to be displayed less prominently. Anyway, last time I checked, Carson wasn’t an institution of the UK state.
‘I would welcome a Statue of James Connolly or Winifred Carney two Republican Socialists in the grounds of Stormont.’
How about a statue of Con Markievicz (nee Gore-Booth). She was:
- The first woman elected to the Westminster parliament (No, it wasn’t Nancy Astor)
- Europe’s first female cabinet minister (in the Dail)
- A member of the Anglo-Irish ascendancy who was presented to Queen Victoria as a debutante
- A Countess
- One of the leaders in 1916
If Sinn Fein wish to commemorate anyone then surely she is worthy of it (and less offensive to the Unionist community who would never have heard of her).
I don’t for a minute believe that SF’s efforts will be resticted to Carson. But they will not be given latitude on this. SF can accept a legitimate expression of nationalist culture at Stormont along the lines which Willow has suggested or they can howl and gnash their teeth impotently as the status quo is maintained.
Chekov
I don’t for a minute believe that SF’s efforts will be resticted to Carson. But they will not be given latitude on this. SF can accept a legitimate expression of nationalist culture at Stormont along the lines which Willow has suggested or they can howl and gnash their teeth impotently as the status quo is maintained.
If that is the attitude, then they should either force neutrality, and if they can’t manage that, they should make use of their veto to make life very uncomfortable for the DUP. Let’s say putting Poots department under review, and forcing everything he does to a cross community vote, for a start.
What annoys is not so much Unionist symbols, but Unionist attitudes to Nationalists.
kensei: Anyway, last time I checked, Carson wasn’t an institution of the UK state.
However, he was pretty much a founder of Northern Ireland, of which Stormont houses the Executive and the Assembly. He simply doesn’t have a nationalist counterpart, unless you want to count an early power-sharing nationalist from say Sunningdale, or the first Assembly. So, Hume, or Fitt, or Mallon, say. Nominating a set of would-be wreckers instead is just taking the piss. Connolly never even heard of ‘Northern Ireland’, or Stormont.
Chekov
Blethering on about what Nationalists can expect to be granted by their Unionist overlords is all well and good and (hopefully you received a satisfying erection when you typed that last post). Unfortunately for you, Equality legislation isn’t determined by your world view.
“so that means we have to erect another one, same scale and all that”
It so doesn’t.
“What annoys is not so much Unionist symbols, but Unionist attitudes to Nationalists”
I’m beginning to realise that what annoys is not so much Unionist symbols, but Unionists.
Unionist attitudes to nationalists have nothing to with it. Nationalists are entitled to their aspirations as has been acknowledged ad nauseum. What they are not entitled to do is ignore constitutional realities and equality legislation will not help them in this regard. There is no joint sovereignty in Northern Ireland. The Republic of Ireland’s symbols are not legitimate in Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom’s symbols reflect Northern Ireland’s constitutional status. These are facts and they become no less prescient because they are more convivial to unionists. Equality legislation will not change that one iota.
However, he was pretty much a founder of Northern Ireland, of which Stormont houses the Executive and the Assembly. He simply doesn’t have a nationalist counterpart, unless you want to count an early power-sharing nationalist from say Sunningdale, or the first Assembly. So, Hume, or Fitt, or Mallon, say. Nominating a set of would-be wreckers instead is just taking the piss. Connolly never even heard of ‘Northern Ireland’, or Stormont.
First up, I don’t care if Carson had a major role in partitioning the country and setting up 50 years of misrule, I don’t think he deserves a statue for it. I will tolerate it out of respect for others as long as I am respected.
If we want to take the piss, then it is our prerogative. either you can respect the choices we make, or we can get rid of the whole bloody lot. I’d prefer the former, but think Nationalism should definitely pursue the former in the event of that happening. Last thing needed is Unionism to get the idea things will be anything like last time there was a legislature sitting in that building.
BL
I’m beginning to realise that what annoys is not so much Unionist symbols, but Unionists.
Only when they act like Dicks.
Chekov
Unionist attitudes to nationalists have nothing to with it.
No, they have everything to do with it.
Nationalists are entitled to their aspirations as has been acknowledged ad nauseum. What they are not entitled to do is ignore constitutional realities and equality legislation will not help them in this regard.
Actually, by all accounts it will.
There is no joint sovereignty in Northern Ireland. The Republic of Ireland’s symbols are not legitimate in Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom’s symbols reflect Northern Ireland’s constitutional status. These are facts and they become no less prescient because they are more convivial to unionists. Equality legislation will not change that one iota.
Sovereignty will not change, but we can and will certainly impact the expression of it. An again, in any case Carson is still not an institution of the UK state. Nor is a huge swathe of the clutter than adorns councils and Stormont.
This comes down to respect. If there is none there, then this will collapse and we’ll wind up with ever greener Plan B and it’ll be enforced anyway.
Republican[throwing]Stones – “thanks for increasing my hits, free advertising is always welcome.”
I am happy to let other people know the low level of the person they are debating with. Sinn Fein PIRA must be very proud of you. You should think about taking up the ‘Unionist Outreach’ portfolio.
interested – “Edwin Poots doesn’t have any responsbility over the flying of the Union Flag over public buildings. That’s controlled by the Flags Order and a reserved matter.”
They is nothing to stop him or the rest of the DUP asking the Prime Minister for equality with the rest of the UK. The questions is, can they be bothered now they are in power?
joeCanuck: “SF vociferously oppose (rightly so in my opinion) the attempts/desires of certain loyal orders to march where they are not wanted.
Given that, it is passing strange that they attempted to hold this commemoration in a place where they had to know the majority of the population would object to. ”
Well, sensitivity, even-handedness and a lack of hypcrisy has never been a failing of most politicians, regardless of stripe. I just wonder why SF is so naked and clumsy in their failing thusly.
kensei
“this will collapse and we’ll wind up with ever greener Plan B and it’ll be enforced anyway”
Really? Go on then I dare you.
No more smoke and mirrors about the mythical Plan B. Collapse the institutions over a party for a dead terrorist and see how far you get with your greener alternative.
I won’t hold my breath.
Right. This is pointless. Kensei lays down the law as he sees it without any basis whatsoever and we’re all expected to defer to his judgment. Is he Brian Feeney’s son? Respect is not sponsoring events celebrating the life of a terrorist. Once that is established we can start moving forward and see what we need in addition. Otherwise you’re going to have to learn that SF have played their full deck and the leverage is no longer there. So no, your threats don’t scare anyone and Northern Ireland will not be held to ransom by you any more. 74% of people here, both unionist and nationalist do not wish to see terrorists glorified and it is SF who will have to accord them respect.
REPUBLICANSTONES
thanks willow, now we know, the only history that matters is the unionist ‘version’.
Ironically, but not surprisingly, you completely miss the point. I have never said nor implied that “the only history that matters is the unionist ‘version’” – quite the opposite, in fact. I am actually objecting to “republicans” who seek to impose their version of history whereby the fact that the majority of nationalists consistently chose peaceful nationalism over violent republicanism is forgotten.
CUT THE BULL
Willowfield you seem to be cacooned [sic] in your own wee world and if your views are prevelant [sic] then I honestly think that this is an issue which could sadly go on well past its sell by date.
Let me reassure you that I am not “cocooned in my own wee world”.
James Connolly was one of the most important people who shaped republican, socialist politics in Ireland as well as being one of the main trade unioinist figures in the country.
He has no connections to Stormont; little connection to Northern Ireland; and his views won little support in Northern Ireland. Indeed, his socialist views were rejected consistently throughout the whole of Ireland.
As to Winifred Carney being obscure and no noe having heard of her Ithink thats a sad reflection as she was the first Sinn Féin representitive to stand in East Belfast she also a prominant memeber of the ITGWU in Belfast as well as being a memeber of the Irish Citizen Army.
She was never elected in Northern Ireland, represented political views which were consistently rejected and, as such, is a completely inappropriate subject for a commemoration at Stormont!
You atste that republicans are not very important in the history of this state.
Connolly and Carney are not very important.
I would say you’re wrong there as one such republican who by his own admission was the OC of the Derry Brigade of the IRA at one point is presently your Deputy First Minister, so Iwould say he and the republican movement are fairly important in the present day set up in Stormont.
Martin McGuinness is neither James Connolly nor Winifred Carney.
I would have no objections whatsoever of a portrait of Martin McGuinness being displayed in Stormont alongside Ian Paisley, David Trimble, Mark Durkan, Seamus Mallon, Brian Faulkner, Gerry Fitt, James Chichester-Clark, Terence O’Neill, Lord Brookeborough and Lord Craigavon.
KENSEI
In the Northern Ireland election of 1921 SF won 6 seats with 20% of the vote, compared to Devlin’s party which won 6 seats on 11%. Dev pulled in a seat for FF in 1933, but Nationalism wasn’t given many more serious options. Even then, there were a number of independent Republicans voted into Stormont. A lot of votes did go to Labour parties, and that needs recognised.
1921 was the only election in which “republicans” outpolled anti-violence nationalists!
Two other points: historically, a lot of Nationalism has been absentionist and secondly, SF have now been a serious political force – if not the majority – here for getting on 25 years.
1. If you choose to abstain from Parliament, then the consequences of that are that you don’t get statues put up in Parliament! It seems rather silly to recognise people who chose to abstain rather than to be constructive.
2. The Provos may well have been a political force for the past 25 years, but they were also a terrorist one: that rules them out for being honoured by the people of NI. Again – those are the consequences of choosing violence over peaceful engagement. Don’t complain now when people don’t want to celebrate those choices.
KENSEI
“I don’t for a minute believe that SF’s efforts will be resticted to Carson. But they will not be given latitude on this. SF can accept a legitimate expression of nationalist culture at Stormont along the lines which Willow has suggested or they can howl and gnash their teeth impotently as the status quo is maintained.”
If that is the attitude, then they should either force neutrality, and if they can’t manage that, they should make use of their veto to make life very uncomfortable for the DUP.
What is wrong with legitimate expression of nationalist culture?
BL
Really? Go on then I dare you.
No more smoke and mirrors about the mythical Plan B. Collapse the institutions over a party for a dead terrorist and see how far you get with your greener alternative.
I don’t think Nationalism should rule out making your day as an option. Like it or not the 40+% Nationalist section of the population isn’t going anywhere, and any Government is going to going to recognise that and continue to involve Dublin. If there is advantage in it, then they should do it.
I don’t care for the party, but do over the wider question of symbols. If agreement cannot be reached then the Assembly is doomed in any event.
Chekov
Right. This is pointless. Kensei lays down the law as he sees it without any basis whatsoever and we’re all expected to defer to his judgment. Is he Brian Feeney’s son?
I believe you were the one that begun “laying down the law”. I didn’t ask for my judgement either; I simply said that you should respect the requests of Nationalism’s elected representatives. I’d guess easily 90% would support something to Connolly or Collinsor as suggested Countess Markiewicz. Perhaps MMG should get recognition after his period in office. He is certainly both linked and significant
Respect is not sponsoring events celebrating the life of a terrorist. Once that is established we can start moving forward and see what we need in addition. Otherwise you’re going to have to learn that SF have played their full deck and the leverage is no longer there.
As I said, don’t particularly care for the party.
Afraid they haven’t played all their cards. They could collapse the Assembly if they wished. Or veto decisions made. You also assume this is something that annoys only SF voters; which isn’t the case. It can quite easily galvanise SDLP types too.
So no, your threats don’t scare anyone and Northern Ireland will not be held to ransom by you any more. 74% of people here, both unionist and nationalist do not wish to see terrorists glorified and it is SF who will have to accord them respect.
In which case SF should set about making life difficult for the DUP until you stop being hysterical and are forced to recognise that Unionism is no longer top dog.
willow
What is wrong with legitimate expression of nationalist culture?
Nothing. Legitimate is a subjective term.
Also, your entire arguments are based, as usual, on a non sequitir. Because recognition is at Stormont, it does not mean that people necessarily have to be tied to that place. You would expect people there that are, yes, but as the supposed central government here there is also room for wider figures reflective of both communities.
If there was a serious attempt at increase Nationalist represntation within Stormont, it would need to take in a range of figures from different ends of the Nationalist spectrum.
Yeah right.
After all the bleating about restoring the institutions nationalism now want to collapse them over vol au vents for Bomber Farrell?
Kensei.
SF collapsing the present Assembly after demanding a list of symbols and doing some research to establish which would are offensive! What an idea! That would be tremendous.
I am sure that SDLP ‘types’ are annoyed by some symbols, but I have no doubt that they are less inclined to view terror commemorations as legitimate expressions of their identity. That would include those who were also regarded as terrorists by the Free State of course.
Oh. And by all means let SF and DUP embark on a tit for tat war at the Assembly over symbols. And to think it is you who can’t envisage how UUP / SDLP might make an electoral recovery!
Should read ‘which are offensive’/
Nothing. Legitimate is a subjective term.
Our current political dispensation, focused on Stormont, is based on terrorism being illegitimate. Therefore glorification or commemoration of terrorists at Stormont is not legitimate. That’s a consensus view – only the Provos (and sympathisers such as yourself) think otherwise.
Also, your entire arguments are based, as usual, on a non sequitir. Because recognition is at Stormont, it does not mean that people necessarily have to be tied to that place. You would expect people there that are, yes, but as the supposed central government here there is also room for wider figures reflective of both communities.
If you’re happy to go outside the political sphere I’ve no problem whatsoever with, for example, cultural figures from outside the world of politics. Start sculpting.
If there was a serious attempt at increase Nationalist represntation within Stormont, it would need to take in a range of figures from different ends of the Nationalist spectrum.
Sorry, but the extreme ends of any spectrum are not acceptable. Too many people died.
BL, Chekov
I don’t believe that I am either “nationalism” nor do I believe I said what is claimed. To be clear, I think at the present time that devolution is still generally in the best interests of nationalism, but perhaps with a tougher tinge. That may not always be the case though, and Nationalism should have no problems ditching it if that becomes the case, not do I believe they should be any particular fear of it. Or of flinching from a “Go on punk” challenge.
I don’t think symbols in themselves would collapse the Assembly, nor should it. But I can see a scenario whereby it is a catalyst that ups the ante with an eventual result. And the route cause will be contempt, which is what Unionist responses to this betrays. It’ll be mutual contempt that will collapse the Assembly and if we can’t get past if it isn’t symbols, it’ll be something else that does it.
Sorry, but the extreme ends of any spectrum are not acceptable. Too many people died.
In which case you risk alienating a lot of people you need to draw in. I don’t think those related to the 1916-21 period would necessarily be as controversial as the last round of Troubles, and I believe there were some Connolly clubs in Unionist areas at one point though obviously focused on Socialism rather than Nationalism.
I do wonder though if there is not some way that various people can be recognised without necessarily “glorifying terrorism”. Sands is obviously a controversial figure but his election started a path that ended with SF in Stormont. There were loyalists that went through similar transformations; even Paisley was more of a street politician at the start and Ulster Unionism killed Sunningdale through strike. if there were some way of tying these strands together so they were there, seen but the ultimate narrative is about the triumph of Constitutionalism on all sides rather than simply hiding and trying to ignore the past.
I don’t think those related to the 1916-21 period would necessarily be as controversial as the last round of Troubles, and I believe there were some Connolly clubs in Unionist areas at one point though obviously focused on Socialism rather than Nationalism.
I agree that figures from that period are less controversial, but the problem remains as previously stated: neither violent republicanism nor radical socialism were very popular in Northern Ireland and it is hardly appropriate, therefore, to have commemorations to figures of little import.
I do wonder though if there is not some way that various people can be recognised without necessarily “glorifying terrorism”. Sands is obviously a controversial figure but his election started a path that ended with SF in Stormont. There were loyalists that went through similar transformations; even Paisley was more of a street politician at the start and Ulster Unionism killed Sunningdale through strike. if there were some way of tying these strands together so they were there, seen but the ultimate narrative is about the triumph of Constitutionalism on all sides rather than simply hiding and trying to ignore the past.
That sounds rather more constructive, but I fear it does not represent the thinking within the Provos. I reckon they just want to glorify the killers.
How about a statue of Con Markievicz (nee Gore-Booth)… If Sinn Fein wish to commemorate anyone then surely she is worthy of it (and less offensive to the Unionist community who would never have heard of her)
The hind tit (how very apt)- This unionist grew up and was educated in an area you’d probably describe as ‘loyalist’ and went to a school you’d probably think of as ‘Protestant’ – we studied the Countess as part of a comprehensive Irish history course, taking in the Plantations, the Famine, the Rising, Partition and all the rest. Indeed another unionist on here, Turgon, suggested her as an alternative for SF’s International Women’s Day celebrations. So please take your ill-informed comments elsewhere.
And yeah, why not have a statue or portrait of her?
And yeah, why not have a statue or portrait of her?
Cos she’s got f*ck-all to do with Stormont or Northern Ireland?
Fair enough but I’d rather have her than Bobby fucking Sands.
Just watched the local news, left feeling physically sick watching a once dignified proud people celebrate a dignified pround volunteer while degradingly squeezed into a tacky side office.
This is the New Jerusalem?
Whereby Sinn Féin crown ministers cant even secure a room in the very building where they are
supposedly putting manners on the state?
Gut wrenchingly sickening …. such an awful embarassment to watch, can’t they see themselves?
Fuiseog
Fuiseog – You are a lark
What’s a pround volunteer? I’ve heard of a prod and a round, but not a pround.
HT
Correct on the lark,
could do better on pround
lark – fuiseog f2
http://www.crannog.ie/lll.htm
Pround
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pround
The tit and I are here all week !!
Fuiseog
Once again P&J;thanks. I just wonder what name you troll through youtube under. Im entitled to come to this website, you would seem to suggest otherwise. Well, hard luck. Need a hug?
Willow seems to miss the point completely. To nationalists and republicans, Ireland is their country. the fact that certain colonial relics decided to threaten and oppose by force the will of the irish people and so were rewarded with their own little colonial backwater, does not mean that those unfortunate souls who were and still are having the union jack waved in their faces forfieted the right to claim and identify with historical irish figures.
‘Cos she’s got f*ck-all to do with Stormont or Northern Ireland?’
She is a historical figure respected in Ireland, both north and south.
Now will you please tell me what St George has to do with your beloved England.
‘Fair enough but I’d rather have her than Bobby fucking Sands.’
Its Bobby Gerard Sands.
And he was and is honoured in other places around the world, just not in this colonial backwater.
Willowfield
Winifred Carney married a member of the UVF I am not 100% sure of his name but I think it was Thompson.
Surely she was able to cross the rubicon as far as politics was concerned therefore could you not cross that rubicon aswell in relation to a statue of her being placed in Stormont.
She was also won of the most hard working members of the ITGWU in Belfast and she was born and lived in the Shore Rd area of belfast.
She along with James Connolly campaigned on behalf of Mill and Dock workers in Belfast.
I think they were very important within Socialist politics and the labour movement throughout the length and breadth of Ireland.
RS: “To nationalists and republicans, Ireland is their country. the fact that certain colonial relics decided to threaten and oppose by force the will of the irish people and so were rewarded with their own little colonial backwater, does not mean that those unfortunate souls who were and still are having the union jack waved in their faces forfieted the right to claim and identify with historical irish figures. ”
Possession, on the other hand, is more than nine-tenths of voudoun.
The partition, for good or for ill (and I have a few opinions I wouldn’t bellow in front of a Loyalist bar anytime in the near future…), is an ugly reality. It is not going anywhere anytime soon, fever dreams of 2016 or no.
RS: “And he was and is honoured in other places around the world, just not in this colonial backwater. ”
Yeah, he’s got a nice little traffic island next to a Greek Orthodox church in Connecticut, complete with a corroding plaque and a faded Tricolour.
She deserved everything she got – and more for that matter. She was an evil being causing death and pain to many innocent victims. She was a thug and a terrorist – masked by being a woman.
She’s where she deserves to be now!
Maybe a stutue of Henry Joy Mc Cracken might be more suitable. A Protestant and a Republican who sought to unite all our peoples catholic and protestant
Again though, long before NI’s and Stormont’s time; plus if you wanted to stick something up there are better spots in Belfast with more relevance to him.
Republicanstones – just saw your youtube video. What’s the big deal about walking up the shankill? I have kids with Irish names and I take them swimming there & to the shops (the fish shop is good & there is a good computer repair shop. Mplex in the argyll are excellent value and there is an olde world sweetie shop worth visiting for nostalgia). You shouldn’t be so scared of it, it’s all in your mind. And what’s with the wurzels on the soundtrack?
The sooner the DUP and Sinn Féin disappear the better. Maybe finally thered be an end to all this winding up the other side with terrorists displays. I include IRA and SAS in my description of terrorist
“Might I suggest that the other problem facing the Shinners is that a good lot of the people they’d probably like to commemorate with mouments doubtless wouldn’t be too chuffed to think that their efforts had earned them a statue or bust up at Stormont.”
LOL
Unionists do not get to decide who or what nationalist decide to comemorate
the basic choice to unionists is take your crap down or let the natiuonalist put their crap up simple really even for the alphabet killers