“A new campaign for reunification might sound great at an árd fheis, but..”
In the Irish Examiner, Fergus Finlay makes a couple of good points, firstly relating to “The price of peace”
Actually, the best possibility of arriving at Irish unity is if we let it happen by chance. The central dynamic of the peace process was to arrive at a point where those who were at the heart of the problem were transplanted, eventually, into becoming the heart of the solution.
And on the feasibility, or otherwise, of Adams’ “high-powered taskforce” driving forward a “road-map to Irish unity”
IN THE years ahead, a stable and prosperous Northern Ireland could be electing governments with a very clear mandate to work well with the government of the dynamic economy down here. We could well find that both governments, for example, are taking positions in Europe that are at odds with the positions adopted by Westminster. And little by little, the things that unite us could start coming into focus, while the things that divide us fade into distant memory.But just suppose unity across the island was to come about that way. Do you know what it would be called? It would be called unity by consent — an agreement to run our affairs together in the best interests of all of us.
The political parties of this part of the island signed up to that principle an awful long time ago and Sinn Féin eventually, in their signing of various agreements and their taking of office in the Northern Ireland Executive, signed up to it, too. A bit late, but then, as they say, better late than never.
I’ve no idea whether unity by consent will happen in my lifetime (and like most people, I suspect, I’m not too bothered). But I do know that it’s the only kind of unity that will ever work. A new campaign for reunification might sound great at an árd fheis, but there’s a different game in town. I wonder do Sinn Féin get it?
As Michael Longley said, “peace is the absence of war: the opposite of war is custom, customs, and civilization.”
Hi pfhl,
Your last effort was much better. You must be listening to the advice you gave me!
Now that the dust has settled, why do you think that what you suggest on an all-island basis would not be at least as successful on a British Isles basis? Economies of scale would certainly be better. The UK punch well above their weight for inward investment in the EU. You would also be able to tap into other industries that may come to the fore like nuclear. There’s always that seat in the G8 to think about that a UI will never achieve.
“The UK is a member of the UN security council and a member of the G8.”
And pray tell how does that affect you in your day to day life? Is it bringing more jobs to NI?
“In world terms the Republic just doesn’t matter a toss. That’s why it gets away with being a tax haven.”
FFS its working for us. I have a well paid contracting job which I can leave in the morning and pick up another job within a few day and can even ask for a permenant position if I so wish. Thats what being a tax haven has done for me and I will gladly take that over paying to send some representative to sit at the G8 summit.
In World terms Ireland is the largest exporter of software!!!!
Apologies for stealing your nameCG, I was copying and pasting too quickly with your qoutes
Hi Kensei,
‘The UK is not an elected dictatorship. A Scot does not “run” the UK. He merely heads the Government, and it is you who is misrepresenting.’
Quaint.
“Chances of another Irishman running the country: slim to none.”
Have more faith.
“Which confers what benefit exactly on the six counties? Wait, none.”
Such matters as exchange rates and trade. As you say ‘none’. FFS!
“That it is. Which is fortunate, because someone needs to pay for the six. I think it’s more dignified and more worthwhile eking out your own living, though.”
and then you whinge about the EU funding accusation in the same post!
“I never understanding the “We’re a big country” argument. I don’t want to be a big country. I am content for no one else on the planet to have heard of us as long as we are happy, healthy and prosperous. No one ever hears shit about Finland, other than how excellent a lot of the things it does are. That’s where I want to be, not the UK.”
Finland was close to being in the USSR. It may not have been as great then. Best not take the chance eh?
“I note we’ve moved from “EU funded” to “Tax Haven”. Improvement, I suppose, but still incredibly bitter when you consider the achievement of the Republic in the last 15 years. Anywhere else and Unionism would be chomping to use it as a model.”
As I’ve said before the RoI is the last bastion of Thatcher’s Britain.
Hi Congal Gael,
“In World terms Ireland is the largest exporter of software!!!!”
Repackager of software that was developed elsewhere. That’s the tax haven thing again…
“Now that the dust has settled, why do you think that what you suggest on an all-island basis would not be at least as successful on a British Isles basis?”
Didn’t seem to work that well last time was tried.
Famine
Still not paricularly effective See Page 9 for economic disparities within England.
Don’t want to change the subject but I find it hard to think of any single benefit: economically, culturally, spriritually or in some other fashion that Empire brought to Ireland.
Dewi…
it depends on your perspective…
the Life of Brian sums it up brilliantly…
what have the Romans done for us?
Congal Claen
you replied, some great returns.
‘I dont know but it will.’
Do you want to tell me the euromillions numbers for this week if you are so sure of the future with no evidence to back it up?
‘This misrepresents what would happen. For example, a Scot runs the UK at the minute. In the past it has been Irishmen.’
What did i misrepresent? That scot lives in London and sits at the head of a parliament that sits in London.
‘NW200 is the biggest sporting event. Football has far and away the biggest following. I notice your email suggests you follow Celtic ffs.’
Maybe i should have suggested annual attendances you tool. The NW200 is a series of events over days however. How about we throw the whole all-ireland series together and not count it as individual games. I contest your point about footbals following being far bigger. Living in the south I did not meet many who did not have a dual interest in both. Which leads to my support of the mighty Celtic f.c.. I will happily and proudly admit to supporting such a great club. I will also however happily admit that the thought of ireland lifting Liam mccarthy would please me greater than any Cetic victory. I will also watch Ireland play rugby and Harrington and Clarke golf. I will even watch the mosconi cup over christmas and maybe even throw in a Federer and Nadal match if it comes up. I’ll watch Gus hansen and Phil Ivey bet at each other. On Television last night i watched a program on Stephen Hawking and read some of his public lectures on-line to follow. My point here being watching internationally recognizable names in sport, poker or physics, as may be the case, will never make me want to be part of britian. My family brought me up to respect others and there are many brits i respect. I however am irish and wish to be irish.
‘Basically, the demonisation of all things English and the little Irelander views.’
The demonisation of al things english? So do the irish people not folow soccer? From your earlier comment i assume they do, i know i do. Do they not follow rugby? Once again i believe they do. Do the schools teach english? I beieve they do. Do they travel to england? I believe they do. Do they listen to English musicians? I believe they do. You have just resorted to rhetoric and failed to address my points about how irish nationalists have embraced the EU project and are a state that is very pro-immigration in terms of the goverment.
‘In future, I’d maybe put your posts through the spell checker before making comments like that.’
The L on this keyboard sticks, would you use a spell checker for the word ‘actually’?
“Quaint.”
True
“Have more faith.”
I asked God, and he told me: still slim to none.
“Such matters as exchange rates and trade. As you say ‘none’. FFS!”
How does the UN Security Council or G8 affect trade? One has nothign to do with it, the other is an excuse for a Summit.
“and then you whinge about the EU funding accusation in the same post!”
Nope, didn’t. The Republic could happily survive without EU funding: they helped build an economy with the money. We got more form the EU, pisse dit against a wall and would have a depression without UK funding.
“Finland was close to being in the USSR. It may not have been as great then. Best not take the chance eh?”
Er, “close to” is not “is”. What?
As I’ve said before the RoI is the last bastion of Thatcher’s Britain.
Except not really.
Repackager of software that was developed elsewhere. That’s the tax haven thing again…
Er you do realise that a huge amount of software development goes on for US companies even in Belfast?Heck, we are the only part of the company making software that’;s selling at the moment.
I’ve just caught on: you’re a troll, right?
Once upon a time in the Republic/Free State some of our leading politicians blamed the States relative poverty , backwardness etc etc etc on Partition . The reasoning was simplistic -industrial north was missing from agricultural south and thus we as a nation were held back .
The history of the last 20 years or more has shown that the Republic did not need for partition to end in order to establish a modern democratic and prosperous State .
The Republic does’nt need Northern Ireland to succeed . Northern Ireland needs the Republic’s economy to spur local economic growth.
Fergus Finlay is largely correct . Most people in the Republic still believe in a United Ireland but they don’t want anybody to lose their lives for it -neither do they want to pay through the nose for it – neither do they want to import Northern Ireland’s local ‘dysfunctionalities ‘ into the Republic.
From a southern perspective I’d say a UI deal would be along the lines of here’s 50 seats for NI in the Dail (6 counties), a few extra in the Senate – here’s your lower corporation tax rate – here’s your new flag and constitution -same as for the rest of us -and if yiz don’t like it then see if we care, and please leave your ‘religion’ back in Belfast or Ballymena or wherever , oh and we’re reducing that public sector dependence to the Republic’s level within 10 years so get the finger out lads !
Sounds exciting eh ?
Next business.
Greenflag
While you are organising the life of those in the North please remember to leave your religion in the Chapel and not bring it into schools hospitals or the Dail or any other public assembly.
‘While you are organising the life of those in the North’
No thanks
I’d rather watch grass grow .Anyway these Northern lads are too good some would say brilliant even at disorganisation . I mean just look at how many Unionist parties there are . I’ve lost count but with the TUV it must be at least 4 or 5 not counting Alliance ? Soon every Unionist in NI will have his/her/it’s own Party and will eat it too !
‘please remember to leave your religion in the Chapel’
Nothing to leave I’m afraid . Greenflag gave up on all that mumbo jumbo heaven magician poncing about stuff long ago. There’s no heaven in heaven and there’s no heaven on earth either
But at least here one can enjoy lifes little pleasures. Heaven is a place where there is no sex , and the heavenly bastards spend eternity singing bloddy hymns to Paisley /Pope/God ?Allah etc . Sounds more like hell to me 
Hi Dewi,
“Don’t want to change the subject but I find it hard to think of any single benefit: economically, culturally, spriritually or in some other fashion that Empire brought to Ireland.”
Maybe you should think a bit harder? A very obvious benefit is that Irish people speak English. No English, no Celtic tiger and fek all else really come to think of it… Maybe think through the soundbites as well?
Hi pfhl,
“The demonisation of al things english? So do the irish people not folow soccer? From your earlier comment i assume they do, i know i do. Do they not follow rugby? Once again i believe they do. Do the schools teach english? I beieve they do. Do they travel to england? I believe they do. Do they listen to English musicians?”
Agreed. Then why the pretense that Gaelic is the first language, etc. Why the glib English monarch nonsense comments when that isn’t the case? Why the problem playing GSTQ at sporting occasions? I could go on but I fear you may not be listening… And I thought we were starting to get on…
Hi Kensei,
“How does the UN Security Council or G8 affect trade? One has nothign to do with it, the other is an excuse for a Summit.”
I never said the security council had anything to do with it. That was in relation to political influence. On the other hand the G8 very much has an effect on trade. That you suggest otherwise beggars belief.
“Er you do realise that a huge amount of software development goes on for US companies even in Belfast?Heck, we are the only part of the company making software that’;s selling at the moment.”
It may surprise you but I actually worked for several of them. I’d question your use of “huge”. For example I’m guessing you and probably everyone reading this is using a MS OS and probably even internet explorer. What’s developed here is but piss in the wind in world terms.
CC
On the other hand the G8 very much has an effect on trade. That you suggest otherwise beggars belief.
It really doe snot all that much. It/’s a status thing.
It may surprise you but I actually worked for several of them. I’d question your use of “huge”.
Well, it’s all relative, but there is certainly a fair bit of serious software development going on in Belfast. Much more in Dublin and the South generally, and it extends far beyond simple localisation and the like.
For example I’m guessing you and probably everyone reading this is using a MS OS and probably even internet explorer. What’s developed here is but piss in the wind in world terms.
I’m using Windows, because I don’t use the PC at home much beyond music, internet and email. I could fire on any variant of Linux you like and be perfectly comfortable with it. But no router kicking about, and I’m tight, so I’ll keep Windows on at the moment. It’s perfectly adequate.
The absolute amount of software development is irrelevant to the fact it keeps a lot of people in Ireland employed. You’re original contention was it’s all low quality work, and that/’s far from the case.
*yawn* always cracks me up how much some nationalists rattle on and on about wanting a united ireland and how little thought they give to how to realistically bring one about
cs parnells posts here at least realistically appraise the need to bring the unionist community on board such a project. trying to bludgeon them in on a 50%+1 basis would lead to disaster and probably east ulster independence – regardless of the constitutional niceties.
as wb yeats said in the Irish Senate when divorce was banned in the 1920s, these are “no petty people” you’re dealing with here. if they get the sense they’re being f’d over they’ll go their own way, no question – regardless of the constitutional niceties.
I’m at a loss as to why nationalists, if they really want unity so much, don’t make a respectable offer? what about d’hondt, power-sharing, mutual cross-community consent needed in the Dail etc? – all concepts currently working well in NI which could be expanded. or does the idea of sharing power with a 20% minority stick in the craw so much that it’s worth sacrificing the chance of unity rather than accept it?
is it unity between nationalists and unionists you’re after, or are you after some concept of Ultimate Victory – the final defeat of the unionist tradition? (an impossible aim as, again, these are no petty people and are no more possible to defeat than nationalism in NI was possible to defeat)
anyways Finlay’s right, given the lack of imagination in nationalism the only way unity could possibly come about is to quit trying to force it to come about and just let it happen. it’s like that material in science, forget what its called – the stuff thats all squishy and flexible except when you hit it, whereupon it becomes hard as stone. every action trying to force unity to happen will meet with an equal and opposite reaction against it. so quit forcing!
besides pretty much every unionist would be happy with Irish Unity tomorrow morning if it were in the UK! so the aim isn’t really “unity” is it, its more unity+nationalist victory+unionist defeat…
So, George appears to say that unification is the alternative because it isn’t partition — which apparently needs actively maintained — and that if we are under British rule now, we may as well be under Irish rule when the figures flip. I can’t say that’s a compelling argument; in fact, it’s making my point for me.
Kensei: I fear I wasn’t as clear as I intended to be when I wrote “our local sovereignty” — sometimes some of the words are lost between head and keyboard — but I’m speaking to the sovereignty we would have as an alternative to running into the arms of another master. You’re right, of course: to date there’s been no popular taste for it, but your points of flexibility, political influence and the protection of liberty speak louder still to the idea of self governance as an independent state.
I can’t say I hold much confidence in the Constitution of Ireland as historically constructed — Article 2: Claim to the entire island (1999); Article 8: Irish as the first language (current); Article 44: Special position for Catholicism (1973) and Special position for Religion (current, also dotted throughout the Constitution including forced recognition of God within declarations) — to name a few favourites. Throw in a couple of special references to Dublin that, frankly, seem unnecessary.
pfhl: Cheers, I appreciate the response that attempts to speak to specifics. I’m personally not convinced the economic argument holds much clout against the status quo, even if it’s a strike against independence. Regardless of where it ends up, Northern Ireland has to get its economic shit together — to put it nicely — and pull itself out of the pseudo-Soviet-statelet communism that has kept it ticking over so far.
I agree that the country wouldn’t likely be in a position to compete with the Republic or UK for a long time yet without being crushed, but I don’t think we’d really be dropped into the economic wilderness considering the special interest between ourselves and our neighbours. It just seems a rather large leap to me from cooperation to the handover of control and there are very few arguments, if any, against independence that couldn’t have been applied to an independent Republic in the first place.
ozy
“the need to bring the unionist community on board such a project. trying to bludgeon them in on a 50%+1 basis would lead to disaster and probably east ulster independence”
but isn’t 50%+1 the agreement? Wasn’t it pasted through a referendum in NI? Or is the British Nationalist/Loyalist position that its 50%+1 only as long as that suits us? If Unionism wanted an agreed Ireland then it should have negotiated from the outset. there’s a snowballs chance of the Dail being set up along d’hondt lines.
Congal claen
No English, no Celtic tiger and fek all else really come to think of it”, lol, is that why the Asian tiger economies did so well, or Denmark, or the Benelux countries, or Sweden? English was an advantage, but not the deal breaker, otherwise Scotland/Wales would be Celtic tigers too
As for tax haven!! Has no-one been reading about Non-Dom status of some of the wealthiest people in London, and how they would leave London in droves if their ‘special’ tax status was threatened? The closest Ireland has is the special tax rates for Artists. And anyway, why shouldn’t a country alter its tax rates to make it a competitive place to locate. Why don’t Unionists have a go at Switzerland for its lenient tax regime (incidentally, another non-English speaking economic success).
As for Ireland being like Thatcher’s Britain, that’s just so wrong. For example, to see how un-Thatcherite RoI is, compare the relative trading balance/imblaance of the UK and Ireland (or the level of social walfare/pension payments, or the Social partnership arrangement, or the quality of the Irish civil service).
ozy
I’m at a loss as to why nationalists, if they really want unity so much, don’t make a respectable offer? what about d’hondt, power-sharing, mutual cross-community consent needed in the Dail etc? – all concepts currently working well in NI which could be expanded. or does the idea of sharing power with a 20% minority stick in the craw so much that it’s worth sacrificing the chance of unity rather than accept it?
In the first instance, there is a qualitative difference between a 15% minority holding a veto and a 45% percent one. Second, few of those concepts “work well” here. They are a sticky plaster over our problems and a substitute for normal majority democracy with appropriate checks and balances. Heck, not even Unionism likes them.
There is of course room for sensible checks and balances within the Constitution of an All Ireland state. I hate to tell you, but there are precious few in the UK and you form about 1/60th of the population and have very little influence.
is it unity between nationalists and unionists you’re after, or are you after some concept of Ultimate Victory – the final defeat of the unionist tradition? (an impossible aim as, again, these are no petty people and are no more possible to defeat than nationalism in NI was possible to defeat)
No, we want Unity for Ireland which would embrace Protestant, Catholic, and Dissenter – Milesian and Cromwellian – the Irishman of a hundred generations and the stranger within our gates. But we are also republican. We would want Unionism to be a part and enrich the Nation, and they should be free to express their views and themselves in whatever way they see fit. But there is no place for another country to run our affairs. It’s about sovereignty, not defeat.
0b
I can’t say I hold much confidence in the Constitution of Ireland as historically constructed—Article 2: Claim to the entire island (1999); Article 8: Irish as the first language (current); Article 44: Special position for Catholicism (1973) and Special position for
Religion (current, also dotted throughout the Constitution including forced recognition of God within declarations)—to name a few favourites. Throw in a couple of special references to Dublin that, frankly, seem unnecessary.
If anything, the fact that Constitution has been sensibly amended by referendum is a great strength. I would expect a new state would have a new more secular Constitution at any rate.
‘I’m at a loss as to why nationalists, if they really want unity so much, don’t make a respectable offer? ‘
It’s not a loss just a failure to connect with Ireland. The Republic’s ‘nationalists’ want ‘unity’ but not all that much . Let’s say it’s probably priority number 29 on their list of wanna haves . Northern Ireland’s nationalists rate ‘unity’ higher for obvious historical reasons.
‘what about d’hondt, power-sharing, mutual cross-community consent needed in the Dail etc? – all concepts currently working well in NI which could be expanded.’
As you say yourself ‘currently’. The jury is still out on whether it lasts .I’d say that most people in the Republic look upon Northern Ireland’s political solution to it’s inherent political instability as a band aid .
‘does the idea of sharing power with a 20% minority stick in the craw so much that it’s worth sacrificing the chance of unity rather than accept it? ‘
The ‘minority’ would be closer to 15% instead of 20% and given the rapid changes in the Republic’s demographics -Northern Unionists would in any event be likley to be outnumbered by the Republic’s new immigrant minorities within the next decade anyway.
Unionists would be better served in any prospective UI through being ‘divvied’ up among the centre left/centre right and left parties in the Republic or forming similar parties within NI and forming like minded voluntary coalitions with Southern parties in an expanded Dail . The Senate could have a few extra seats to ensure a voice for former ‘unionists’ cultural , linguistic and if there are any left ‘religious ‘ sensitivities .
Any UI would not be governed in any way shape or form like the present Northern Ireland . The simple fact of the complete economic dependence of the Assembly at Stormont on Westminster would I have thought been reason enough to see the utter impracticality of that notion.
We in the Republic have poor enough ‘opposition’ as things stand . The last thing we need is to import a system where there is no opposition . We would prefer to strengthen our increasingly secular democracy not weaken it .
0b101010
So, George appears to say that unification is the alternative because it isn’t partition—which apparently needs actively maintained—and that if we are under British rule now, we may as well be under Irish rule when the figures flip. I can’t say that’s a compelling argument; in fact, it’s making my point for me.
Not really, I was showing that you haven’t made any point whatsoever.
You are asking to be shown the merits of unification yet you don’t need to be convinced of the benefits of partition even though it has resulted in 4 decades of bombings, 80 years of dysfunctional politics and Northern Ireland going from economic hub of the island to economic backwater.
You aren’t looking to engage with the issue because you don’t see a problem with partition. So why should anyone bother?
If the time comes that a majority are in favour of ending partition, you will engage with the issue then.
Only at this time will we truly learn what unionists actually want from a united Ireland.
Hi Kensei,
“You’re original contention was it’s all low quality work, and that/’s far from the case.”
No, if you check I was responding to a suggestion that…
“In World terms Ireland is the largest exporter of software!!!!”
I stated,
“Repackager of software that was developed elsewhere.”
Which is largely correct.
Hi Iain,
“lol, is that why the Asian tiger economies did so well”
I made the comment in relation to the Gaelic side of the FF project. If Ireland had reverted to speaking Gaelic, as FF wanted, there would indeed be no Celtic tiger. Europe’s business language is English and it spreads throughout the population on a day to day basis. If Ireland spoke Gaelic you could kiss goodbye to the Americans. It’s Eurovision soon, check out the number of countries singing in anything other than English.
‘If Ireland spoke Gaelic you could kiss goodbye to the Americans.’
So the Iraqis now know what they have to do for Americans to withdraw ?
Americans do business wherever they get the best return . Be it in Chinese speaking China or anywhere else .
English can be a help of course . More important is political stability and low tax rates on investments .Despite being ‘english speaking ‘ Northern Ireland has had a much lower success rate in attracting English speaking investment than say China , India , Mexico , Slovenia , Poland , Russia , Holland , etc etc etc
Perhaps you might want to consider lowering your torso to somewhere below your navel and preferably between your knees . At which point you could perhaps get enough traction to if not kiss america goodbye then at least your a**ehole !
“If Ireland had reverted to speaking Gaelic, as FF wanted, there would indeed be no Celtic tiger.”
Don’t think that’s a syllogism and I’ve never met an Irish speaker (or Welsh speaker over age of 4)who doesn’t speak English also. It’s called loke being bilingual.
It’s called like being bilingual – sorry.
‘You are asking to be shown the merits of unification yet you don’t need to be convinced of the benefits of partition even though it has resulted in 4 decades of bombings, 80 years of dysfunctional politics and Northern Ireland going from economic hub of the island to economic backwater. ‘
Jealousy will get you nowhere . At least Queenie visits every so often and NI once qualified for the World Cup . Partition also helped many thousands of Northern Catholics get a university education at least 15 years before they would have had a similar opportunity in the Republic!
‘If the time comes that a majority are in favour of ending partition, you will engage with the issue then.’
That majority will only occur when Irish Nationalists outnumber Northern Unionists at the ballot box . A remote possibility at best.
‘Only at this time will we truly learn what unionists actually want from a united Ireland.’
Afraid not . No not even then . Unionists don’t want a United Ireland – not now -not then and not ever . That’s why they are called Unionists.
Irish Nationalists best course ahead assuming failure of the present House of Cards is a fair repartition of NI. Less expensive for a start and it would leave most unionists to seriously have to face a new future minus most of the taigs . I can already see dancing in the streets of Newtownards and Ballymena at the prospect!
Congal Claen,
Unlike the British attitude towards Gaelic, i’m not aware that Irish people ever wished to eliminate the speaking of English as a spoken language in Ireland. Indeed, the Irish state has always funded education through the medium of English as far as i’m aware. In fact, it seems to me that the only people who speak pejoratively (is that a word?) about a language in NI is Unionists when talking about Gaelic.
Hi Dewi,
Reread what I wrote…
“If Ireland had reverted to speaking Gaelic, as FF wanted, there would indeed be no Celtic tiger.”
The “as FF wanted” is the important point.
“It’s called like being bilingual”
And the economic advantage of fluency in an essentially dead language is…
Greenflag,
That majority will only occur when Irish Nationalists outnumber Northern Unionists at the ballot box . A remote possibility at best.
The Sinn Féin First Minister could come along a lot quicker than the unification majority. I look forward to seeing how that works out for Northern Ireland inc.
“Afraid not . No not even then . Unionists don’t want a United Ireland – not now -not then and not ever . That’s why they are called Unionists.”
Reality is different than posture.
Northern nationalists are called nationalists for a reason too but just because they don’t want partition it does not mean they are not shy about stating what they require from the UK state. Why? Because they live in it.
Equally, unionists will address the issue of a unitary state if it looks like they have to live in it but not before.
the relics of britains colonial past will have to learn to live with the wishes of the majority of the people of Ireland, both north and south. which is something their ancestors never were willing to do.
They seem to wish to deny the rights of people now as they always have done down throughout the years. they need to remember, that it was not the Irish who had the greenfingers and extended an invite, but their beloved britain, who seems to be ready to now cut the apron strings once and for all !
Hi Stones,
Ireland wasn’t a colony. It was, and NI continues to be, an integral part of the UK. How could the British have a colony in any part of the British Isles. These Isles being known as such prior to the colonisation of Ireland by the Gaels.
This again is an example of unionists being described as not of here as mentioned by Parnell. It’s a Gaelic conquest not unity that stones desires. I suppose “planter” must be due an outing soon.
Congal,
Just to point out, there is no evidence (non-internet) of any people known as ‘Gaels’ invading Ireland.
‘known as such’?
hmmm. By a greek geographer writting in Egypt who was relying on the lore of sailors as his primary source. Cant be certain unless we really want to be.
“And the economic advantage of fluency in an essentially dead language is”
a) ain’t dead
b) opens two windows on history and culture
c) Not everything is about economics but the establishment of S4C and asssociated investment in Rock music programmes was a huge factor in the International “economic” success of Catatonia, Super Furries and others. Girl at No 1 now – can’t memeber her name, but from Nefyn, was discovered on S4C – her name is Duffy.
“Unlike the British attitude towards Gaelic, i’m not aware that Irish people ever wished to eliminate the speaking of English as a spoken language in Ireland.”
A better comparison would be:
Unlike the British attitude towards Gaelic, i’m not aware that Irish people ever wished to eliminate the speaking of English as a spoken language in ENGLAND.
‘The Sinn Féin First Minister could come along a lot quicker than the unification majority.’
Perhaps .
‘ I look forward to seeing how that works out for Northern Ireland inc.’
Given the limited powers and financial limitations on any NI First Minister I can’t see any NI FM be they DUP/SF or UUP making any significant difference.
‘Reality is different than posture.’
True enough . Reality is also the ballot box and votes and numbers and majorities and minorities . The reality right now is there is no sign of an emerging majority vote within NI for a UI.
‘Equally, unionists will address the issue of a unitary state if it looks like they have to live in it but not before.’
The fact that Unionists are not addressing the issue must be an indication that it looks like they’ll never have to live in one at least for another generation or two or three or four ?
Have you not considered the benefits of Repartition ?
Actually, Congal Claen, if the Irish language had not be killed off in the 1800s by the English, considering the number of Irish emigrants to the US, there is a good chance that the Irish language could be one of three languages (Spanish, English & Irish) now spoken in North America.
I suppose English literature would have been a hell of a lot poorer without Joyce, Beckett, Heaney.
Can you explain to me why you fear Irish culture/heritage so much? What do you think you would lose in the event of a United Ireland?
hi everyone,
firstly i have spent time living in the north, the south and britain (bit of a traveller) lol! and what i have found out is that…
a. the republic would have a united ireland in a flash, but would not be bothered with all the bullshit that comes along with it
b. the brits dont want the north, and would happily say “right lads, away you go, play nice now.”
now i read all the posts in this forum, and i have to say there are some good points in a 32 republic. but i have to agree that i would not like some eejit from the north(with only unionism as his/her agenda)coming to dublin dictating what should be included in a 32 county ireland.
Hi ,
“Just to point out, there is no evidence (non-internet) of any people known as ‘Gaels’ invading Ireland.”
Then explain how Ireland changed from a p-celtic speaking island to q-celtic. There’s no other example of this anywhere else of reverting to the more archaic form. Some, would suggest that that is because the Gaels weren’t here when it was p-celtic. I have read several books were a Gaelic invasion is forwarded. T.F. O’Rahilly certainly suggests a Gaelic invasion years before the internet was even thought of.
“hmmm. By a greek geographer writting in Egypt who was relying on the lore of sailors as his primary source. Cant be certain unless we really want to be.”
Amongst others as I’m sure you are aware.
sorry there was an air bubble between head and hands, anyone from the north coming down dictating.
to congal claen,
NI is an intregal part of the uk?
give me a break!
no one in the uk can be bothered with NI being in the uk except the “uk citizens” of the north.
here is a website for you to check out
http://www.ni-anintegralpartoftheuk.lmfao.ie
Hi JaneyMac,
“Actually, Congal Claen, if the Irish language had not be killed off in the 1800s by the English, considering the number of Irish emigrants to the US, there is a good chance that the Irish language could be one of three languages (Spanish, English & Irish) now spoken in North America.”
Don’t think so. By the time that the Catholic Irish headed Stateside English was already decided as the language of everyday use. Gaelic speakers arriving in the US at that time would have to have taken up English like all the other non English speakers. It was a toss up between Spanish and English and things would be different if Spanish had been chosen. But it wasn’t…
“Can you explain to me why you fear Irish culture/heritage so much? What do you think you would lose in the event of a United Ireland?”
If you knew me you would know that that is not true. I’m proud to be Irish. However, most nationalists interchange Irish with Gaelic as if they’re the same thing. I find that annoying. Much in the same way English people interchange English and British.
The fact that Unionists are not addressing the issue must be an indication that it looks like they’ll never have to live in one at least for another generation or two or three or four ?
Not necessarily. It could also be because Unionists don’t want to address the issue because it would weaken their position.
Unionism is a huge church, encompassing the overwhelming majority of Northern Ireland’s Protestants, a minority of Catholics and some others.
Their views are from one end of the spectrum to the other and they are only all joined by the constitutional issue.
You don’t discuss issues that could split up such a disparate group as this unless it’s for a good reason.
Within unionism there are those who would accept a united Ireland and move on with their lives immediately. Then at the other end there are those who would see nothing wrong with people blowing up Dublin’s men, women and children to prevent it.
In order for unionism’s majority to survive into the future, it needs this broad church to remain intact.
This means no broad discussions. 30 years ago unionists said the south was too poor for them and now they say they are too poor for us.
We will always be given reasons why it is impossible by unionism.
There will never be a broad discussion on the merits of unification unless it is upon us.
Have you not considered the benefits of Repartition ?
I have had dark moments of the soul over this but am now firmly against the idea.
20 years ago the nationalist parties 30%+. Now they get 40%+. how is it inconceivable that they’ll be getting 50%+ in another 20 years. Most people alive today will be alive then. the complacency of unionism is astounding.
Hi Iain,
“20 years ago the nationalist parties 30%+. Now they get 40%+. how is it inconceivable that they’ll be getting 50%+ in another 20 years. Most people alive today will be alive then. the complacency of unionism is astounding.”
Not saying this will definitely be the case – who knows? However, falling Catholic birth rate. Also, if catholic schools turn their backs on Grammar schools the number of catholics going to state schools will increase further. Perhaps there, they’ll see some advantage in remaining part of the UK…
Hi George,
“Within unionism there are those who would accept a united Ireland and move on with their lives immediately. Then at the other end there are those who would see nothing wrong with people blowing up Dublin’s men, women and children to prevent it.”
Gamewarden turned poacher and vise versa?
Hi George,
“I have had dark moments of the soul over this but am now firmly against the idea.”
Can I ask why? Could you also advise why partitioning the British Isles is OK but not Ireland? Or you could consider GB – most Irish nationalists seem to support Welsh and Scottish nationalists splitting the island of GB. Why the difference? A serious question btw, I’m not trying to score points.
hi congal,
yes i agree there are some advantages to ireland remaining partitioned. but that is not the issue.
the issue is identity
you claimed you were a proud irishman, but it seems you are a proud norn irishman.
reading between the lines it seems you have no wish to embrace your southern counterpart.
Congal,
The word Gael is an gaelicisation of a p-Celtic word meaning ‘woodsmen’ or ‘wildmen’, it is a name given to people whilst in Ireland, it is simply impossible that anyone came to Ireland with that name, it is a nickname.
You are confusing your Gaels with your celto-Iberians (Clann Mhíl / Milesians).
I suggest your name may be apt and that you should open both eyes.
What are your feeling towards Gaels of a Scottish variety BTW.
hi congal, i think you’ll find that Britain did colonize Ireland, using it as a template for exporting its empire even further afield. its where the british first hit upon the idea of divide and conquer planting a race of ‘loyal’ people to provide a bulwark against the attempts of the pesky natives to fight back.
Sad….but very true
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/1102
‘Not necessarily. It could also be because Unionists don’t want to address the issue because it would weaken their position. ‘
True enough . Once people take their heads out of a hole in the ground the sand falls from their eyes and their ears hear things which they formerly could not see and their eyes see things which they formerly could not hear . Unlearning is a difficult process and for many people – too uncomfortable to bear thinking about ! I know this from personal experience as I go to the gym and contemplate my evening medium rare steak and compare the pleasure of the latter as against the tortures of the former
‘Unionism is a huge church, encompassing the overwhelming majority of Northern Ireland’s Protestants, a minority of Catholics and some others.’
Again true .
’30 years ago unionists said the south was too poor for them and now they say they are too poor for us. ‘
Aha! The silver tongued devils eh ? No wonder they’re able to milk HMG Govt out of 5 billion a year in subvention ! If you think about this from a certain perspective this could be the best of all reasons to eschew unification . If the scoundrels can milk the Brits what makes you think they would’nt be successful at milking us ? Already there have been a few instances where it would appear that Bertie has tossed some of our hard earned euros across the Black Pigs Dyke . Feeding hungry crocodiles from behind a fence may be hazardous but still sane .Inviting said crocs into your house minus it’s fence and offering them an appetiser would I suggest not be a life lengthening experience . For some reason I’m put in mind of Flight Officer Takeo Hidebashi’s brief stint as a kamikaze pilot
‘I have had dark moments of the soul over this but am now firmly against the idea. ‘
I don’t bother with the ‘soul’ I just look at the numbers in relation to the financials and I find that in the short to medium term (25 years) ‘repartition’ pays a lot better than unification. As I’ll not be around in the longer term (50 years plus ) I prefer to let posterity worry about any losses that might be incurred by not having ‘unification’ earlier .
Anyway what did ‘posterity’ ever do for any of us ?
‘Within unionism there are those who would accept a united Ireland and move on with their lives immediately.’
Of course I know several former ‘unionists’ who live and work in the Republic . Most seem to do well.
‘ Then at the other end there are those who would see nothing wrong with people blowing up Dublin’s men, women and children to prevent it.’
No surprise there . One shower blows up women and children in order to bring about a United Ireland and another shower would blow up women and children to forestall a United Ireland ?
Brilliant strategy from both sets of gobshites you have to admit