McCord and the sash his father wore…
JUSTICE campaiger Raymond McCord – who son was murdered by a UVF gang that included police informers - last night became the first unionist to address a Sinn Fein ard fheis. Wearing his father’s Orange Order sash, McCord told republicans that whereas Gerry Adams had kept to his promise to raise the case of McCord’s son in Downing Street, unionist MP Jeffrey Donaldson failed to name the killers in Parliament. The News Letter reported that Mr Donaldson said he pledged to name the killers if Mr MrCord, who received a loyalist death threat a few days ago, brought inconclusive evidence – but that it never came. That’s certainly never stopped members of Mr Donaldson’s former or current parties before. Mr Donaldson said Mr McCord should “reflect on his new bedfellows and look at the record of the IRA for murder and destruction and ask himself: ‘Are these the people best able to deal with the circumstances surrounding the murder of his son?’” The answer could well be ‘yes’, because there is an almost complete lack of interest amongst unionist politicians about loyalist violence against Protestants. In fact, since the IRA ceasefire, by far the biggest terrorist threat to Protestants has been loyalist paramilitary groups.
“As for any orangeman being offended by the wearing of the collarette why? It was his fathers and is proud to show that he comes from a strong unionist family and the I.R.A. members accepted that with applause.”
Well I’m an orangeman and I’m slightly offended Gareth. The IRA members accepted it because they will be able to use his appearance as propaganda and to deflect the spotlight from their own culpability. They have extra ammo now to posture as an ordinary political party concerned about. human rights
“Would the same respect be given to a republican at a d.u.p. conference??”
Certainly not. The DUP are hypocrites, as your post correctly points, but they draw the line at sleekit hypocrisy- they know people would see through such a brazen stunt for what it would be.
“If an orangeman is offended by a unionist father speaking the truth about paid loyalist killers wearing HIS fathers collarette then maybe they should look at the loyalist killers wearing the sash on the 12th and explain.”
OK, we’ve been down this road before, but here goes. Until the courts convict someone no organisation- be it the golf club, orange order, RC church or Star trek appreciation society- is able to investigate serious crime and discipline members. Firstly it doesn’t have the information held by the police, and secondly any decision would inevitably be successfully challenged in the civil courts by the person complained of.
It’s all very well saying Brother Joe Bloggs is the local UVF commander, but how exactly do you prove that? That’s why people are suspended from their jobs when charged, not dismissed, and nothing happens until they are charged. So the blame lies where Nuala O’Loan found it- in the police. If someone is charged and convicted and remains a member you can criticise the orange.
I have always admired Raymond McCord’s courage, and we need more people like him to stop inconvenient truths being buried, but on this occasion he made a mistake, as is shown by the fact that all the Unionist posters on this thread who oppose the idea of forgiving and forgetting terrorists (as opposed to those who are now prepared to turn a blind eye now they are in power) have felt this was a mistake.
Belfast Gonzo
“That’s what I get for being lazy and cutting and pasting from the News Letter”
In my experience, reading the News Letter invaiably leads to that
“It’s all very well saying Brother Joe Bloggs is the local UVF commander, but how exactly do you prove that? That’s why people are suspended from their jobs when charged, not dismissed, and nothing happens until they are charged. So the blame lies where Nuala O’Loan found it- in the police. If someone is charged and convicted and remains a member you can criticise the orange.”
It hasnt stopped politicians from rightly naming Sinn Féin members involved in murder. Its called parlimentary privilage. The problem is that 3 of the main parties (The DUP, UUP and Sinn Féin ) have been involved in or supported terrorism and state sponsored terrorism(not that theres much difference between the two). Sinn Féin are obviously using mccord but mccord is also using sinn féin because the main unionist parties have have too much to loose by admitting their role in supporting loyalist terrorism. Hes doing a deal with the devil as its the only route open to him to seek justice for the murder of his son.
Everyone knows the sordid role Sinn Féin and the IRA in the conflict but equally the british state also used their own illegal death squads.
Yesterday I saw an advert for the stage show of Give My Head Peace, much derided on Slugger for its stereotypical characters (and the odd bit of threadbare script and porky acting)
Then I read this thread counting how many times Willie / Martin / Gerry / Peter have appeared on a platform with whoever and said/ supported / thought whatever. Now Give My Head Peace seems so topical again!
Look, they were all stupid. They were all misguided, They did and said some terrible things. Some of them were worse than others but it was all bad. Oh yes, and we all kept voting for them and supporting them…..after all they were ‘ours’.
We are just emerging from 40 years of collective madness where we were all at fault as a community. Collectively we let it happen and let it keep happening.
It was all awful …but now its over, so get over it and move on. As for Justice? Well, I am sorry for McCord and all the others who suffered but they are very diverse group and what Justice will really satisify them all / deliver the inner peace that they want and we should wish for them?
The first demand is often that they should know the truth about what happened. That seems fair enough, but how do we do it? Whose truth? Remember that those who really know will usually be a shower of lying, murdering, self serving bastards, many of whom have now their own careers to worry about. The sad fact too is that may klillings were just random or just handy. He’s a Taig/Prod – he will do.
Then there is the demand for Justice. Care to count how many MLAs would end up in the Dock on that one never mind all the others?
The problem with this entire debate is that its all rooted so firmly in the past and aimed at picking at the scabs of old wounds. And, of course, the more cyncial may think that there are votes under some of those scabs.
Perhaps the only Justice for all the dead is to build a political system that makes sure it never happens again. But how can we do that and still respect those who suffered most? I fear that Robin Eames and Denis Bradley will be very busy.
Darth
And the central point…………….being that he was FORCED to reach out to Nationalist politicians, because of a lack of help elsewhere. A desperate man, doing what to your community is a desperate action. Perhaps understandable though.
Pretty damning indictment on Unionist politicians, wouldn’t you say?
DARTH you have cemented the thoughts and actions of a typical orangeman and unionist by somehow saying you dont know about the killers within your ranks! The unionist know about the republican killers and their activities but strangly they dont know about the loyalist killers they share platforms with and march with and share info with???
Please speak or type your opinion but dont make a fool of yourself by pretending or defending the orange about killers well known HIGH UP in their ranks.
Would the orange accept a paedophile marching on the 12th or are they different from paid loyalist killers in the views of orangism.
A simple question for a proud orangeman like yourself, WOULD THE ORANGE ORDER BACK THE CAMPAIGN TO FIND THE TRUTH ABOUT PAID LOYALIST KILLERS COLLUDING WITH THE FORCES AND DEMAND JUSTICE FOR ALL THOSE EFFECTED ESPECIALLY THE 25 PROTESTANTS KILLED SINCE 1994 CEASEFIRE??
Exactly and why not tell us.
“It’s all very well saying Brother Joe Bloggs is the local UVF commander, but how exactly do you prove that? That’s why people are suspended from their jobs when charged, not dismissed, and nothing happens until they are charged. So the blame lies where Nuala O’Loan found it- in the police. If someone is charged and convicted and remains a member you can criticise the orange.”
Darth, prominent Orange member Brian Kennaway has written a pretty damning book that covers in part this very subject. There have been orange members in very recent years who were convicted of paramilitary activity and never disciplined by the order. Not to mention the continued celebration of dead loyalists (and orange members)who were killed in the midst of a terrorist action. In short, there have been more than enough instances in recent years of Orange hypocrisy.
Twinbrook [i]“As to ulsters my homeland….apart from knowing more than the likes of Jackson, Foster, Bew, Kee, etc, about the history of this Island, you have to really laugh at “his” make believe history of Ulster!!
Does the uda combat mag still have cartoons!!!”[/i]
Hello fellow Ulsterman, did your forefathers build Black Pigs Dyke or were they the invading Gaels from the South? I would suspect they built it and were known as the Pretani, or in Scots Gaelic, the Cruthin.
so how did you lot manage to become Irish?
Ulsters my homeland are you one of those people that believe the Giants causeway was formed ater Noahs Biblical flood or that the earth is 6000 yrs old?
Quiz Master, what has Noah and 6000 years got to do with Ulster history? Black Pigs Dyke is real, it’s not myth, the Pretani are real, they’re not myth, unlike the shitload of Irish fairy tales which try to Irelandise the whole island.
6 county ulster….
more than likely my forefathers were Planters….
still your attempts at make believe history really are….
well out of the combat mag…
as to scots Gaelic atleast thats a real language unlike ulllstter sccccats
twinbrook, that’s a bit of a rant, learn that at Sinn fein college?
hello everyone, first time user here.
to ulster my homeland,
well buddy, it seems to me, that its not ulster is your homeland, because ulster is made up of nine counties not six.
to all on this site, who cares how, when or who, mr. mccord gets justice off, as long as these murdering pigs, hiding behind loyalism are brought to justice.
truth & Justice
ever try stand-up.
you would bring the house down.
“irelandise the island.”
The hint is is in the name of the island you gabshite
well said bugger,
the key word in “northern ireland” is ireland.
no mo chara I`ve actually read all those authors, YOU SEEM TO IGNORE…
still I`m not surprised you have not mentioned the lost tribes rubbish…..
a la British Israelism…..
Is that not in vogue with the wombles today!
dia duit a twinbrook,
what authors exactly?
You have to admire the resiliance and backbone of Raymond McCord and his family. The man goes and speaks anywhere or to anyone he thinks might help get to the truth, he confronts his critics and those who threaten him AND his son comes on here and takes their critics on. That family have more guts than most of us. Instead of whittling this down to a sectarian arguement it is in the interest of BOTH communities to see and hear just what role the British intelligence agencies and RUC/PSNI Special Branch played in prolonging the conflict and how many innocents died at their hands. Some of the flat earth/moon is made of cheese unionists who REFUSE to believe that Perfidious Albion did ANYTHING wrong need a reality check. Robin Eames and Denis Bradley have already hinted at their shock at just how deep collusion went and how involved these sinister secret agencies were. Is that why some Unionist politicians are very mute over the McCord killing and reluctant to get involved in exposing it. Does it shed light on some of their own activities with Loyalists and MI5/MI6. Lets face it, if these Intelligence (!) Agencies infiltrated ALL the paramilitary groups you can bet they have/had their agents in ALL the main political groups too, especially the main Unionist parties. I definately think this is one of the main reasons some of them steer clear of the McCord killing and collusion, it’s too close to home for them.
darth
I was reading the Sunday World earlier, and while I wouldn’t regard it as particularly reliable, it quoted the father of Andrew McIlwaine. According to him the Orange Order has refused to offer work to a loyalist suspect in the murder of his son.
No conviction, but – assuming the story is accurate – a previous story in the Sunday World was good enough. OK, he wasn’t Brother Joe Bloggs and couldn’t be kicked out, but he was the local UVF commander, and could be ‘punished’ by the Order without a court’s conviction.
Out of curiosity, how would you have obtained justice if you were in McCord’s position? While I’m sure you wouldn’t have gone to SF, would you have accepted unionist politicians turning their back on you? And what conclusive evidence do you think would prompt them into serious action?
Beano,
I read the story about Burnside’s UDA association years ago, but I can’t find a link to it now. I remember reading that the article in question (talking about how loyalists needed to stand up for themselves against the bolshie left) contributed to the end of his UDR career.
“Hello fellow Ulsterman, did your forefathers build Black Pigs Dyke or were they the invading Gaels from the South? I would suspect they built it and were known as the Pretani, or in Scots Gaelic, the Cruthin.
so how did you lot manage to become Irish?”
All contrived nonsense to justify the planters
decendants in Ulster today. Next you’ll be saying that the Cruithin were Protestants who spoke the queens English. Fact is the Cruithin are just as much the ancestors of the Irish Catholic folk of Ulster as well as Irish Catholic folk of the rest of Ireland, (North Leinster and Connaught). John “Hume” and Gerry “Adams” will tell you that! The Cruithin are a part our Irish history too, part of the island of Ireland’s history, no matter what way you interpret it. (There are a number of ancient ramparts like the Black Pig’s Dyke found throughout the island of Ireland, just as there are in Britain and Europe. So the Black Pig’s Dyke is not unique).
Gas how the likes of “Ulsters my homeland”, Peace & Justice etc..live in their own little insulated bubbles of mythological religious and historical nonsense! An education, no doubt received from the bible and what their grandfathers told them!
Sinn Fein somewhat exploited Raymond McCord however at their Ard Fheis, for there has been no development with the case of the murdered Robert McCarthy or Paul Quinn.
Regarding all the cases that have come to light over the years, Northern Ireland was (and still is I suppose) a truly awful place for murder cover ups whether terrorist/thuggery related or state killings. Sad how people deny it. The insulated bubble syndrome rife.
Sorry to disappoint all you romantics but the gentics seem to show that we are all much the same. All from the one batch of Irish / Scots / British stew brewed from centuries of intermarriage (and probably a good bit outside marriage as well)
All this Irish Celtic Nation stuff is garbage largely thought up by candlelight by Victorians and used for the last 100 years by the extremists on both sides to justify murdering themmuns over there.
‘The problem with this entire debate is that its all rooted so firmly in the past and aimed at picking at the scabs of old wounds. And, of course, the more cyncial may think that there are votes under some of those scabs.’
Northern Ireland is the past . It has nowhere to go but the past . To judge from this thread and many others it appears that the past is where most feel comfortable .
‘Perhaps the only Justice for all the dead is to build a political system that makes sure it never happens again.’
You would think that after 40 years of farting around and getting nowhere, that building a political system, that makes sure it never happens again would be uppermost in the minds of NI politicians and voters . Sadly it isn’t . There are too many who still believe that the ‘others’ can still be beat !
‘But how can we do that and still respect those who suffered most?’
Difficult if not impossible . Life is’nt fair.The dead are not coming back .The future dead of a resumption of conflict won’t be coming back either .
‘I fear that Robin Eames and Denis Bradley will be very busy. ‘
I think Eames and Bradley would do themselvs and the people of NI a better service by returning to their main vocations and getting on with ‘normality’ such that it is.
‘Remember that those who really know will usually be a shower of lying, murdering, self serving bastards, many of whom have now their own careers to worry about.’
True. But that’s usually the way every conflict ends . Northern Ireland is no different from Kosovo , Bosnia , Rwanda , East Timor etc on that score . Why do people in NI think they are any different or for that matter that their ‘politicians’ are either ?
Gréagóir O’ Frainclín – “how the likes of ‘Ulsters my homeland’, Peace & Justice etc..live in their own little insulated bubbles of mythological religious and historical nonsense! An education, no doubt received from the bible and what their grandfathers told them!”
Very patronising (file under ‘Unionist Outreach’). Perhaps you are the one in your insulated bubble trying to ignore the strong relationship between the peoples of the British Isles (Great Britain and Ireland).
Gréagóir O’ Frainclín – “Sinn Fein somewhat exploited Raymond McCord however at their Ard Fheis, for there has been no development with the case of the murdered Robert McCarthy or Paul Quinn.”
Agreed.
RepublicanStones – “P&J;, remember nobody cheers for the schoolyard bully in a fight”
Indeed. So why do you support the murdering thugs of Sinn Fein PIRA? The bully boys who murdered against the wish of the people of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and Eire.
Greenflag – “There are too many who still believe that the ‘others’ can still be beat !”
Your posts often suggest that you are one of those people!
To RepublicanStones – Is this your video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o0EO2qryGg
“Up the Shankill … on foot!”? I didn’t realise I was debating with such an intellectual heavy weight! Pictures of a turd in a toilet and slogans about the Shankill like “its still a shithole”, “it’s full of pubs and florists”. Did they show you how to make those sort of videos at the Sinn Fein PIRA university of terror? Impressive. Just admit it – you really are a clone of that bloke who was wearing the Celtic shirt with the sign “no to foreign games”!
“Very patronising (file under ‘Unionist Outreach’). Perhaps you are the one in your insulated bubble trying to ignore the strong relationship between the peoples of the British Isles (Great Britain and Ireland).”
Oh, but I never deny the strong links between Ireland and Britain. I have many relations living in England, and probably more than yourself too.
What I don’t understand however is the constant denial by Britain (London) throughout history, of independance and sovereignty,(Home Rule) for Ireland. What you readily accept without question, such is your take on history!
Greenflag,
I agree entirely anout the Eames Bradley problem. Opposition to this pointless exercise has been the one cross community part of it. The only bit I disagree with is that they would be better returning to their own jobs. We would all be the better for it but I fear that Eames, Bradley and to a lesser extent the rest rather enjoy their position. It gives them a status and a platform they would now no longer have if they were not running this group. The rest of Northern Ireland would clearly be better without them but they either do not know, do not care, or Nevin is correct and they have an agenda set by the government. Since neither are stupid men I suggest tht latter two options are the most likely. They are in my opinion either consumed by their own self importance or they are corruptly following a preset agenda of the government(s).
“As for any orangeman being offended by the wearing of the collarette why? It was his fathers and is proud to show that he comes from a strong unionist family and the I.R.A. members accepted that with applause. Would the same respect be given to a republican at a d.u.p. conference??
If an orangeman is offended by a unionist father speaking the truth about paid loyalist killers wearing HIS fathers collarette then maybe they should look at the loyalist killers wearing the sash on the 12th and explain.”
Firstly, Gareth McCord, I repeat, your father has no business wearing a collarette in public when he is not a member. Secondly he has no business wearing it in front of the Shinners and allowing himself to be misused for propaganda purposes. Thirdly, I don’t personally know any loyalist killers in the Orange. If I did, I would go immediately to the PSNI. If you have any evidence about individuals I hope you would go to the police also. But as Bro. Darth has said elsewhere, the Orange Order cannot move against any member who has not been convicted of a relevant terrorist offence. I would be happy if the Orange Order automatically terminated the membership of any person convicted of a terrorist offence.
“The truth is the unionist politicians and people have ignored all the families from both communities who have had a loved one murdered by the likes of haddock. Not because they dont believe it but because they think it makes them a bad unionist to blacken the british state by exposing the collusion with loyalist killers.
I would like any unionist to answer one simple question WHY WONT THE UNIONIST POLITICIANS HELP OR SUPPORT ANY FAMILY AFFECTED BY PAID LOYALIST KILLERS AND THE UNIONIST PEOPLE STILL VOTE FOR THEM???”
I don’t know the answer to that question because I don’t know what evidence your father has brought to their attention and I don’t know why the politicians have been unhelpful.
“The unionist know about the republican killers and their activities but strangly they dont know about the loyalist killers they share platforms with and march with and share info with???
Please speak or type your opinion but dont make a fool of yourself by pretending or defending the orange about killers well known HIGH UP in their ranks.”
Again, I hope you have brought any relevant information to the PSNI. But I wonder how are the “killers … HIGH UP”. The kind of people found in leadership positions in Orange districts and above aren’t exactly paramilitary types. Personally, I’d be happy if the Orange Order did make more of an issue about paramilitary-security force collusion.
Darth “but on this occasion he made a mistake, as is shown by the fact that all the Unionist posters on this thread who oppose the idea of forgiving and forgetting terrorists (as opposed to those who are now prepared to turn a blind eye now they are in power) have felt this was a mistake.”
Darth, your keepign some pretty poor company on this thread. And some pretty nimble weasel words to dance round the subject. Castigating the man for seeking the truth but not those who cast him out. So it’s more important that you dont make unionism look bad.
The Watchman ” I don’t know the answer to that question because I don’t know what evidence your father has brought to their attention and I don’t know why the politicians have been unhelpful. ” That was a geberal question, even ignoring the specifics about this one case, why the silence on all the others? Why are unionist politicans only concerned when it’s a republican who is killed?
Why don’t you both come out and just say “We wont criticise our side no matter what”