The British Irish experience
David Christopher offers his thoughts on the Reform Movement’s new blog on the developments made in the last 15 years from a southern perspective. He also outlines some issues yet to be dealt with. This comes soon after comments from Danny Kennedy in the Assembly, calling for the Republic to rejoin the Union.From David’s piece:
Of course there is still so much to do, and a long road ahead – we have seen the fruits of embracing Europe – so why not embrace the Commonwealth also? In doing so Ireland would become the fourth European Union nation in the Commonwealth, after the UK, Cyprus and Malta. Joining the Commonwealth would give the Irish Republic a whole new dimension to the work we already do with the EU and United Nations.
And perhaps most important of all, those of minority identity in the Republic are still denied the fundamental promise of the Good Friday Agreement – the right to choose between Irish citizenship, British citizenship or both. It is nonsensical that somebody of nationalist identity in Strabane, County Tyrone has this right, whilst somebody of Irish-British identity across the river in Lifford, County Donegal is denied it.
‘but one fact remains, the Ulster people were going to decide their own future, not Dublin or Westminster.’
Not quite the truth . More accurate to say that ‘some’ of the people of Ulster were going to decide the future of Ulster and indeed of Ireland . This ‘some “represented about 51% of the Ulster population (9 counties in 1920) . Today this ‘some ‘ represents about 53% of the popultion of the 6 counties of Northern Ireland and is an actual minority approx 45% in all of Ulster (9 counties).
The logical follow on from the political position of Northern Ireland’s Unionists i.e those who are fundamentally opposed from any political union ever with the Republic must be to seek repartition of the present 6 county State so that they can have their ‘local’ Unionist majority in a smaller area East of the Bann .
Unfortunately their present ‘financial’ impotence and demographic weakness as well as a general lack of outside support for such a move would seem to preclude them going down that path . Some of the spirits may be willing but the flesh is thinning out and the gumption would appear to be long gone .
Instead it’ll be a long slow drawn out politically divided ‘limboland ‘ neither one thing nor the other , unable and powerless to take the actions needed to rebuild the province’s economy or to provide the high paying jobs that the educated young people of the future will have to seek either in the UK or the Republic or further overseas .
But hey it could be worse
‘but one fact remains, the Ulster people were going to decide their own future, not Dublin or Westminster.’
Not quite the truth . More accurate to say that ‘some’ of the people of Ulster were going to decide the future of Ulster and indeed of Ireland . This ‘some “represented about 51% of the Ulster population (9 counties in 1920) . Today this ‘some ‘ represents about 53% of the popultion of the 6 counties of Northern Ireland and is an actual minority approx 45% in all of Ulster (9 counties).
The logical follow on from the political position of Northern Ireland’s Unionists i.e those who are fundamentally opposed from any political union ever with the Republic must be to seek repartition of the present 6 county State so that they can have their ‘local’ Unionist majority in a smaller area East of the Bann .
Unfortunately their present ‘financial’ impotence and demographic weakness as well as a general lack of outside support for such a move would seem to preclude them going down that path . Some of the spirits may be willing but the flesh is thinning out and the gumption would appear to be long gone .
Instead it’ll be a long slow drawn out politically divided ‘limboland ‘ neither one thing nor the other , unable and powerless to take the actions needed to rebuild the province’s economy or to provide the high paying jobs that the educated young people of the future will have to seek either in the UK or the Republic or further overseas . This situation is a the root of Unionist malaise and continuing unease and uncertainty as regards the future . Now that Paisley is on the way out we can only expect that malaise to grow further . IMO.
But hey it could be worse ? Well could’nt it ?
Moderator -Please delete No 1 above -Feb 22, 2008 @ 10:44 PM
duplication
‘but one fact remains, the Ulster people were going to decide their own future, not Dublin or Westminster.’
If only …
That “future” is by courtesy of £51.5B from the UK Treasury, which I reckon is about £30,000 a skull.
Then there’s the odd loose change:
No wonder you can afford all those special advisers, constituency offices, the highest rate of public spending and the lowest levels of local revenue in the archipelago. Dewi in Wales and I in London (on behalf of the average across England and Wales) are paying more than twice the total household taxation that applies in NI.
The rest of us are not looking for any gratitude (we’ve learned from history), but advise the re-arranging of the following into a well-known phrase or saying:
Remember folks the GFA settled the constitutional issue. Irish nationalism lost and in return was given a temporary right to be in the government of NI.
No one of consequence in politics believes there will ever be a UI so lets forget the history lessons and voodoo economics.
Malcolm
Given the latest revelations in just how loyal Unionist politicians are to the half-crown, in ripping off the British taxpayer, I’d reckon pushing their luck is something that they take for granted. I wonder if any British newspapers will see fit to tell the great british public just how loyal these guys really are.
>>attracts Catholic-haters? If there is a bad side to the order marching along the Queen’s highway, it’s that they attract Republican bigots to protest against their beliefs and culture.<<
Aye, many of these bigots have to go so far as to trip over their own doorsteps. You are not a serious person, the trick for being a wind up merchant or loonie is at least to give us a laugh. This you have singularly failed to do.
[i]“This ‘some “represented about 51% of the Ulster population (9 counties in 1920) . Today this ‘some ‘ represents about 53% of the popultion of the 6 counties of Northern Ireland and is an actual minority approx 45% in all of Ulster (9 counties).” [/i]
Greenflag, would love to see the source
Malcolm Redfellow: Dewi in Wales and I in London (on behalf of the average across England and Wales) are paying more than twice the total household taxation that applies in NI.
Well, it depends on whether you are producers or consumers (e.g. Civil Servants). Also, it depends on each individual’s level of economic activity.
Personally, as a tax paying, NI paying, ratepaying, VAT-paying employee in the private sector, working for a profitable, taxpaying, UK company, I reckon I am paying my way. And you and Dewi aren’t going to dictate how I should place my vote. I have that political position, at least, in common with my nationalist neighbours.
“And no Irishman worthy of the name would take his place at a Grand Durbar, a.k.a. Commonwealth Summit.”
So the President and Taoiseach of the Republic – both of whom have spoken favourably about rejoining the Commonwealth – are not “Irishmen worth of the name” in your view?
There’s an interesting report in today’s Irish Times (page 10)reporting that in an ‘interactive game’ available at the Anne Frank House in Amsterdam unionists are given as examples of Nazi tolitarianism, apartheid in South Africa and other despots in an interactive learning game for children and parents asking whether it is right for them to walk in Catholic areas.
We’ve had 30 odd years of war and the propaganda that goes with it. Now the British ‘cover’ that supported the guys with the big guns is vanishing and all the lies about who is or is not a corrupt fascist will disappear with it. We saw Holy Cross etc. and there is no onesided foregiveness.
It is no longer possible to freeze the Irish out forever and anyone who tries will destroy themselves. Now, what was wrong with love and peace again?
So lets get this straight…. nationalism is OK for the Scots, the Welsh, the Irish, even the English. But an Ulster or “Northern Irish” nationalism is not allowed.
UI by 1916? Lol, I don’t think so! With 20% of catholics pretty comfortable with their status in the UK, the future looks bright.
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2006/Political_Attitudes/NIRELAND.html
But keep scrapping for the crumbs from the SF propaganda table, it gives us all a chuckle.
A “Northern Irish” nationalism has never existed, instead we had a series of choices – either ‘Protestant British’ which left out half the population, or Ulster-Scots which also had sectarian overtones. There have been attempts to build something more inclusive and there’s still time to work out something on other lines which might be more inclusive.
It would need to be something a bit more friendly than screaming fascist mafia at everyone with whom one disagrees. I don’t know how much this is just a style of disagreement and how much is genuine opinion. It isn’t calculated to get us anywhere.
agh,
There will be a nationalist majority at Stormont by 2016 and what happens after that is what we are trying to discuss. You can do what the UUP have done up until now and deny that things are changing or you can try and build political bridges. It’s entirely up to you.
‘There will be a nationalist majority at Stormont by 2016 and what happens after that is what we are trying to discuss.
The only way there will be a ‘nationalist ‘ majority is you you give up the ‘discussing’ and get down to breeding .
‘It’s entirely up to you.’
As you say yourself
If the missus or girlfriend objects you can tell her it’s for ‘Ireland’
Why not settle for a fair ‘repartition’ . A lot less challenging from most perspectives including the political , economic , horizontal aspects no doubt
Will also save time , energy and sheer aggravation as well . Probably better for ‘nationalist’ health concerns etc etc.
2016 is unlikely but 2022 is a strong possibility. The next assembly will probably see unionists (not incl alliance)in a minority & 2 elections after that…….then it’s a referendum. I think it’ll come down to the garden centre unionists in the end not outbreeding.
May you live in interesting times.
Why not settle for a fair ‘repartition’
Why bring the element of fairness into partition at this late stage? It has never happened before. The essence of partition is unfairness, it is perpetrated as a land-grab.
“Why not settle for a fair ‘repartition’.”
I think the key word here is “fair”. Paddy Reilly correctly points out that there’s no reason to hope that any repartition would be “fair”.
Now, I don’t happen to believe that repartition, fair or otherwise, is in any sense desirable, but setting that aside, it’s fairly obvious that a repartition regarded as “fair” by enough people, is not possible.
Sorry Greenflag, I know it’s a favourite of yours, but a “fair repartition” isn’t possible, even if it were desirable.
I think at this stage in our history we have learned that there are no quick fixes and no clean getaways in Ireland.
Why in the world would anyone propose a “repartition”, except to ensure that all of the last century would have to be revisited?
The whole infrastructure, communications, welfare, life-styles have been predicated to the aftermath of 1922. Nobody in either, or any government could conceive of that legacy being eliminated. What we now need are years of “peaceful co-existence”, perhaps a bit of gentle wooing, and one enormous amount of thinking and planning across the divide. Consider the example of Germany: there a division is still healing after nearly two decades and billions of DMs and Euros.
Anyway, it is sincerely to be hoped that if and when the whole 1922 mess fades into history, the parliamentary draftmen do a better job than they did with Berwick-on-Tweed or Cayo Blanco de Sur (a.k.a. Ernst-Thälmann-Insel, which is worth looking up, for one of the most bizarre bits of geo-politics ever, and a sure-fire pub-quiz answer).
‘Why bring the element of fairness into partition at this late stage? It has never happened before.’
There’s always a first time for everything . Watch and see how the Americans and Russians ‘repartition’ the new Kosovo. Most of Kosovos 10% Serb minority are just south of the Serbia border . It’ll make a lot of sense for the Kosovars to hand these ‘alienated’ Serbs ‘ back to Serbia in return for the latters ‘freedom ‘ to unite with Albania .
‘ but setting that aside, it’s fairly obvious that a repartition regarded as “fair” by enough people, is not possible.’
I suggested ‘fair’ . That does not mean any repartition has to suit 100% of the people on either side .
‘Why in the world would anyone propose a “repartition”, except to ensure that all of the last century would have to be revisited?’
Naw it’s just a matter of going back and doing the job right this time . Putting a neutral international agency in charge of a redrawing of the border would be essential as would the support of both governments. Could be a cheaper and less bloody alternative than a TUV unilateral declaration of ‘independence’ followed by chaos .
‘Consider the example of Germany: there a division is still healing after nearly two decades and billions of DMs and Euros. ‘
Not a good example . First all former East Germans are politically German . All residents of Northern Ireland are not ‘politically’ Irish . Some prefer the British ‘moniker’.Secondly the West German economy was over 12 times the size of the East German economy and had 4 times the population . The Irish Republic’s economy is probably 5 to 6 times that of Northern Ireland but the population is about 2.5 times that of NI. Thus it would be far less expensive for the Republic to afford a fair repartition of NI than a UI.
Anyway it will probably only be a consideration if and when the present Assembly (House of Cards) collapses .
As there are several million persons of Irish Catholic descent in Britain and little more than 330,000 in Northern Ireland who can be bothered to vote against Nationalism, surely the fairest and most convenient border is the Irish sea?