Sport as part of normalisation policy?
The last time representatives of British Crown forces set foot in Croke Park 14 civilians were murdered, this Saturday a woman holding the titles:
* Colonel-in-Chief, The King’s Royal Hussars
* Colonel-in-Chief, The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regiment (29/45 Foot)
* Colonel-in-Chief, The Royal Corps of Signals
* Colonel-in-Chief, The Royal Logistic Corps
* Colonel-in-Chief, The Royal Army Veterinary Corps
* Commandant-in-Chief, The First Aid Nursing Yeomanry (Princess Royal’s Volunteer Corps)
* Colonel, The Blues and Royals
* Royal Colonel, The Royal Scots Borderers, 1st Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland
* Royal Colonel, The 52nd Lowland Regiment, 6th Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland
* Rear Admiral and Chief Commandant for women, Royal Navy
* Honorary Air Commodore, RAF Lyneham
* Honorary Air Commodore, University of London Air Squadron
* Royal Honorary Colonel, University of London OTC
* Commodore-in-Chief, Portsmouth
UPDATED belowwill be attending the Ireland Scotland rugby match there wearing her patron of Scottish rugby hat.
éirígí have altered plans for a pre-arranged protest at the British embassy in Dublin (part of a larger campaign) against a proposed visit to Ireland by the British Queen to object over the royal trip to Croke Park and have called for Republicans, Socialists and Democrats to support their stance.
Update: Details of the éirígí protest
Willowfield
From my Emergency Law course at Queens at the time if I remember rightly much like a Carry On movie it depended on the size of your weapon (not even on what you had done with it!)
Well i’ll be passing the junction of Ballybough
Rd and Clonliffe Rd en route to the game and i must admit i’ll find it strangely reassuring that
political dinosaurs exist all over this wee island and not just up here.
Sorry, I don’t understand what you mean.
People have the right to protest if they want to.
Mark – just one pointer. I recall the last protest by RSF against foreign sports at Croke Park and one of the protesters was wearing a celtic top.
It sure made me laugh – enjoy your day out in the Capital.
p.s. can anyone explain the logic of rugby to me?
A unioist voice: And we shall keep our ties with the Lowland Scots because they are our ancestral brothers, but not the Highland Scots, because they are coniving like the native Irish that live amoungst us here. And we shall grovel at the feet of the english because we see them as superior to us, and we shall aspire to be everything that they are. And maybe even hope to die an englishman.
Slave minded serfs the lot of ye. Long may ye continue to be.
Very amusing.
Willowfield,
“That’s true, but didn’t they also refuse to extradite terrorists?”
Didn’t the RUC also refuse to take up the option of having them be tried in the Republic for what I assume were political rather than policing grounds?
George that option was only available from the late ’80s when the new govt was so embarassed byy the actions of its predecessors and decisions of it courts it created that alternative – nice try but I’m afraid that I am only to glad to blow that smokescreen away…..
George
Didn’t the RUC also refuse to take up the option of having them be tried in the Republic for what I assume were political rather than policing grounds?
No idea, but I see Peter Brown has answered.
Are you acknowledging, then, that the courts in the South refused to extradite terrorists to the UK?
Not to the UK, just the northeast of Ireland, because it was being ran by a bunch of incompetent sectarian bigots.
Smell the Coffee
grow up.
The truth is a byatch, isn’t it.
‘Nonsense the Irish Government and taxpayers paid millions over a period of more than 30 years to keep hundreds of extremists locked up in Portlaoise and other prisons ‘
Should have read hundreds of millions .
-’That’s true, but didn’t they also refuse to extradite terrorists? ‘
No .It’s the Courts not the Government that decide extradition cases . They make their judgements based on the written Constitution and laws of the Republic . I know that some applications for ‘extradition’ were turned down because the applicants either did not furnish enough evidence or paid little attention to the Courts procedures . Some applications I believe were so poorly prepared that any junior solicitor in the Republic could tear them apart . The history of British Courts as regards ‘trying’ Irish people re political and related offenses would of course not have made ‘extradition’ easy to implement . There’s no need to repeat the list but you could dig up a couple of hundred years of cases which would show without question that too often the crime was simply to be Irish and that was proof guilt enough .
On balance I believe the Irish Government did what it could do to ameliorate the violence in NI as regards implementing the powers it had during those times . Unlike say the powes of British Courts which when dealing with the Irish often cared not whether the man was guilty or not just that he be made an example of !
The ‘hanging ‘ of William Orr in 1798 being just one case in a centuries long list of of Irish victims of British injustice
The sentence was hardly passed on William Orr when regret was to seize on those who had aided in securing that verdict. The witness Wheatly, who subsequently went insane, is believed to have died by his own hand, made an affidavit before a magistrate admitting that he had sworn wrongly against Orr. [1] Two of the jury made depositions stating that they had been “induced to join in the verdict of guilty while under the influence of drink”; while two others swore that they had “been terrified into the same course by threats of violence.” [1] [3]
These particulars were placed before the Viceroy, but Lord Camden, the Lord Lieutenant, was “deaf to all appeals.” “Well might Orr exclaim within his dungeon” he said “that the Government had laid down a system having for its object murder and devastation.” [1]
Orr was hanged, in the town of Carrickfergus though his execution was postponed three times on the 14 October, 1797, surrounded by an extra strong military guard.
Not to the UK, just the northeast of Ireland, because it was being ran by a bunch of incompetent sectarian bigots.
It was “being ran”, as you put it, by the same people running the rest of the UK, so the reasoning offered in your comment makes no sense, even if essentially it were true, which I do not believe it is.
Smell the Coffee
I rather suspect you and the truth are involved in a very long distance relationship. Let me help you with some truths people have difficulty with
1) The UK includes four constituent parts: England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Even the Provos understand that.
2) The UK will continue to contain four constituent parts unless NI produces a majority in a referendum which says otherwise. Even the DFM understands that’s an unlikely outcome.
3) The only state which shares a land border with the UK styles itself “Ireland”. Check how it defines iteself within the EU and UN. Accordingly the “the northeast of Ireland” is County Louth.
If I can help you with anything else just ask.
No .It’s the Courts not the Government that decide extradition cases .
Obviously, but the Government is responsible for the laws which the courts implement. The courts interpret those laws.
Think of abortion – the Government has changed the abortion law following court judgments.
Ireland is made up of the island of Ireland.
Within the island are two states :
1. The Republic of Ireland.
2. Northern ireland.
Both make up the sum of Ireland.
Therefore the northeast of the Republic of Ireland is Co.Louth, the northeast of Ireland is Co.Antrim. Suck it up brother.
Think of abortion
‘the Government has changed the abortion law following court judgments.’
Not true . The Government proposed an amendment to the Constitutional law prohibiting abortion which was then put to the people in a referendum . Had the amendment not been accepted by referendum it would not have become law .
The Republic has a written Constitution which limits the ‘sovereignty ‘ of Parliament .
The UK is different . Technically the UK Government could pass a law mandating the sterilisation of all adult males over the age of 10 in Northern Ireland and if passed by Parliament that would be Her Majesty’s law ! We prefer our written Constitution .
Willow
“Obviously, but the Government is responsible for the laws which the courts implement. The courts interpret those laws.”
But extradition is still a legal matter that must be decided by the courts. So unless the government of the day had passed a law saying that all extradition requests from any country would be granted, regardless of circumstance, without legal recourse, then the government had no further say over the matter.
Of course so country could possibly have such a law, so Irish extradition law, like that in any other democracy, requires a certain burden of evidence and the guarantee of a fair trial, of any foreign government seeking to extradite people from the Republic.
Clearly in a number of cases Irish courts were not satisfied that UK courts could meet these requirements. But this was a legal judgement, and remember that in the Republic of Ireland, unlike the UK, the supreme power of the land is vested in the people and codified in a written constitution. There are no circumstances in which an Irish Minister for Justice has the power to override the courts, unlike a British Home Secretary. RoI has a separation of powers.
And of course there were people extradited from RoI to the UK during the Troubles. There just wasn’t extradition on demand, and in the cases where the British authorities didn’t do their homework, they were met with the judegment they deserved in the Irish courts.
I have just seen our two water cannon on the road from Armagh to Portadown. A suspicious mind asks me are they on their way to Dublin. The PSNI would not help me in my enquiries; their press office lady told me to contact my local district policing partnership; they refused to put me through to the Chief Constable’s Office-poorly paid gate keepers using their brains is a recipee for disaster it alienates the PSNI’s friends and supporters.Or are British citizens now the enemy in the publicity and media attention seeking Chief Constable’s mind?. They used to hire Belgian water cannon to support the PSNI at Drumcree. I hope they know the current rental value and that they are indemnified against any damage should this hopefully unlikely situation arise. Just to think some anti social elements “will be in for’t early bath” with a bit of luck before Kick Off-slap it up ‘em.
Thank you Post 25 above for the excellent summary. Could’nt have done better myself
Whether people agree with the protest or not, it cannot be portrayed as being devoid of logic.
It appears quite straight forward to me. There are those in Dublin who would attempt to normalise relations with Britain in the fullest sense.
They are on record as saying that they are preparing the way for the visit of the British monarch.
Those in eirigi, indeed, more than their numbers alone, do not believe relations can be normalised whilst British rule exists within any part of Ireland.
In case it has been lost in todays world, Irish Republicanism is a legitimate philosophy to hold.
Further to this, socialism is a legitimate philosophy to hold.
Add the two together and it is not incredibly difficult to see how those from that school of thought have problems with British monarchs and their associates visiting Ireland as a matter of course.
It appears eirigi have taken a relatively restained position on this. They are not protesting against ‘foreign sports’ in Croke, they rightly state that that is an internal matter for the GAA. They are not protesting at the match, its participants, its fans, etc.
They are merely protesting at the proposed visit of the British monarch whilst matters are outstanding and against any foundations for such a visit being laid.
I wish them well.
Surely though Redhaze from the point of view of éirígí this is not going to achieve its goal. If republicanism or socialism is to be relevant it needs to be seen to be responsive to the real needs of people on the ground as they live their lives under an unequal system. Frankly, a protest like this risks making them looks like cranks of the RSF variety. Might be good for the converted, but to make converts? Not sure it’s sensible.
And as for relations betwen Dublin and London, I think they’ve been well beyond normal for some time.
‘There are those in Dublin who would attempt to normalise relations with Britain in the fullest sense.’
Eh ? Relations between Dublin/ROI and Britain are normal and have been for a long time . Probably no two countries anywhere within the EU have a closer relationship right across the economic, political and social spectrum .
‘They are on record as saying that they are preparing the way for the visit of the British monarch.’
Actually we don’t much care one way or the other . If she comes she’ll get a welcome if she don’t she won’t .
‘Those in eirigi, indeed, more than their numbers alone, do not believe relations can be normalised whilst British rule exists within any part of Ireland.’
So are we to cut off all trade and diplomatic relations -send all our british immigrants back to blighty -stop buying english goods -stop looking at premier league soccer -stop drinking english ales ? WTF do you mean by ‘normalise’anyway . It’s 2008 not 1909 !
‘In case it has been lost in todays world, Irish Republicanism is a legitimate philosophy to hold.’
I would’nt doubt it . However there is the ‘republicanism’ of eirigi who get zero votes in democratic elections in Ireland as opposed to the Republicanism of the vast majority of the Irish people who vote for FF/PD/FG /Labour/Green Party etc .
‘Further to this, socialism is a legitimate philosophy to hold.’
Indeed it is but what has ‘socialism’ got to do with 80,000 people going to watch a rugby game and having some Saturday entertainment ? Eirigi’s form of socialism does not appeal to any but a tiny minority in either North or South in Ireland .
‘They are merely protesting at the proposed visit of the British monarch whilst matters are outstanding ‘
What matters are outstanding ? The vast majority of the people in both the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland voted to accept the Good Friday Agreement which whether you personnally like it or not stipulates that NI will remain a part of the political UK until such time as a majority within NI vote otherwise . Princess Anne had nothing to do with the GFA nor did she cast a vote in the referendum . I did’nt particularly favour the GFA but that’s what the people wanted and thats what the people got .
‘Add the two together and it is not incredibly difficult to see how those from that school of thought have problems’
You can say that again but I would’nt use ‘thought’ in that comment -it’s more of a problem of the absence of thought ! Surely there are better ways for Eirigi members to spend their Saturdays . Most I’m sure will want to skive off to watch the English Premier league anyway
Gari,
Surely not raising objections to the normalisation of relations with the British Monarachy for the sake of some possible converts that don’t hold the same values would be just be repeating the mistakes of other groups?
If you are a Republican Socialist party, objecting to Imperialism, Monarchy and the British presence in Ireland is bound to be a defining characteristic.
Rather than adopting a populist approach, trying to build popular support for your position is the road of integrity. And as is made clear, this isn’t a protest against the GAA, IRFU or rugby it is focused on the ‘normalisation’ of the British monarchy’s role in Ireland.
Adopting a Republican stance doesn’t exclude the taking of Socialist stances as the conviction of two éirígí activists over rejecting the exploitation of natural resources during the week demonstrates.
My only concern is if I join the protest it will interfere with my normal enjoyment of the six nations over a few pints.
Greenflag
Billy P’s post was indeed very good but it wasn;t accurate – the right to a fair trial was not the deciding factor in the extradtion hearings it was whether the offences were political or not a definition which conveniently was flexible to suit the individuaol concerned and the prevailing political climate. It is no coincidence that nothing was deemed political post AIA = thanks for the lecture on the Irish constitution interesting if completely irrelevant….
Mark,
Leaving aside the signgifance or otherwise of the Crown for British government, and Anglo-Irish relations, it’s not a question of hiding principles for the sake of recruits, but a question of how to appear a realistic and serious alternative to the target audience in C21st Ireland.
Why are there not similar protests everytime a British Parliamentarian or minister comes to the south? After all, there is no doubt that Parlimaent (or for the last century or so more specifically the House of Commons) is the holder of power and sovereignty over NI.
I’m not saying this isn’t a demonstration of integrity. I’m just wondering if it’s the right battle to pick to forward the overeall agenda.
As someone who is a Scottish Unionist may I make a comment about the original debate . I visit the Republic on a regular basis through work and find the vast majority of people very welcoming and hospitable even though they know I am a Rangers supporter.Many of them have a lot of respect for the Royal family even though they do not wish to have one themselves. I think that respect was shown when the English rugby team played at Croke Park. When the British national anthem was played you could have heard a pin drop ,that tells you a lot about the Irish people .Princess Anne is the patron of Scottish rugby and I know she will get the respect from the majorty of the Irish people but if republicans want to demonstrate that is their right in a democracy ,but times have changed and what does it matter. I personally never thought I would see an ex IRA man in a Scottish parliment but dialogue is the way forward not hate and killing so I dont know what all the fuss is about its only a rugby game.
Billy Pilgrim
But extradition is still a legal matter that must be decided by the courts.
Obviously. So is sentencing. So if the Southern government is being given credit for terrorists being sentenced to prison, it should also be debited for failing to extradite.
Clearly in a number of cases Irish courts were not satisfied that UK courts could meet these requirements. But this was a legal judgement, and remember that in the Republic of Ireland, unlike the UK, the supreme power of the land is vested in the people and codified in a written constitution. There are no circumstances in which an Irish Minister for Justice has the power to override the courts, unlike a British Home Secretary. RoI has a separation of powers.
I’m not sure that that is an accurate recollection of the reasons for non-extradition, as Peter Brown has pointed out.
PS. Just to update you, the UK also has separation of powers and the Home Secretary cannot intervene in the courts.
Greenflag
Not true . The Government proposed an amendment to the Constitutional law prohibiting abortion which was then put to the people in a referendum . Had the amendment not been accepted by referendum it would not have become law .
So the law was changed! That was the point!
The Republic has a written Constitution which limits the ‘sovereignty ‘ of Parliament . The UK is different . Technically the UK Government could pass a law mandating the sterilisation of all adult males over the age of 10 in Northern Ireland and if passed by Parliament that would be Her Majesty’s law ! We prefer our written Constitution .
Your point is irrelevant. Whether the law was changed by a referendum or by Parliament is not material to the point that the law was changed as the result of a court ruling.
(Incidentally, the UK Parliament could not pass such a law as it would be contrary to the ECHR.)
‘Incidentally, the UK Parliament could not pass such a law as it would be contrary to the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights)’
Just as well the UK is a member of the European Union then eh ? So you admit then that prior to Britain’s membership of the European Union passing such a law would have been ‘constitutionally’ possible at Westminster.
‘thanks for the lecture on the Irish constitution interesting if completely irrelevant’
In any discussion of extradition or any other laws which can impinge on the rights of an individual to a fair trial what the Constitution states is paramount . As Britain does not have a written Constitution this consideration may have eluded you!
Now back to the rugby I’ll forecast a 27 to 9 Irish win !
As Britain does not have a written Constitution this consideration may have eluded you!
As someone whose University dissertation was about the possibility of a written constitution for the UK it may not – actually the UK does have a written constitution its just not all in one document but enough about that
Where is extradition referred to in the Irish Constitution? Nowhere! The Irish Courts extradition decisions were based on national statutes and international law so the Constituion is irrelevant – as for cherry picking this and ignoring the flexible attitude to extradition I’ll leave everyone to draw their own conclusions….
Greenflag
Just as well the UK is a member of the European Union then eh ?
The UK’s membership of the EU has nothing whatsoever to do with it being bound by the ECHR.
So you admit then that prior to Britain’s membership of the European Union passing such a law would have been ‘constitutionally’ possible at Westminster.
See above.
But it’s not a case of “admitting” to anything. I have never claimed that the UK had a body of constitutional law superior to ordinary law.
‘I dont know what all the fuss is about its only a rugby game.’
This would be the view of 99.99999 % of the people of Ireland -South and North .) The exception these ‘eirigi ‘ eejits are the exception not the norm .
Look on the bright side though . Scotland at least got over the Irish line . Better luck next time !
‘and ignoring the flexible attitude to extradition I’ll leave everyone to draw their own conclusions’
The conclusion that most people on the island of Ireland draw is that when it comes to ‘flexibility’ the past ‘judgements’ of the courts in Northern Ireland are such a model of justice that it has resulted in millions of pounds of British taxpayers money going to undo the injustices of the NI legal process! Why has HMG yet to devolve the powers of justice to the the new Northern devolved government ?
The problem facing any Irish Government ‘extraditing ‘ people from the Republic to Northern Ireland in the past was the probability that ‘injustice’ would be done . Justice and the law were distant cousins for most of Northern Ireland’s self governing history. When it came to dealing with what were called ‘political ‘ offences i.e waving an Irish tricolour, being a known Republican/Taig/Fenian etc or speaking Irish in court -then justice and the law in Northern Ireland were not only distant cousins but not even on speaking terms .
We’ll see what happens when ‘justice’ is eventually devolved to the new Government . Hopefully it will be an improvement on the past and hopefully Irish people in Northern Ireland will be able to give their full support to the law.
I’m afraid a simple black and white mentality as regards the law works best in countries which have overwhelming support for the Government and ‘constitution’ of the State . That was never the case in Northern Ireland and thus your black and white mentality leads nowhere except back to the past which is where you are probably most comfortable anyway .
The rest of us meanwhile look forward to a more flexible and just future !
‘I have never claimed that the UK had a body of constitutional law superior to ordinary law.’
Fair enough . Perhaps it’s something they might consider ? Maybe at some future time when the British ‘subject’ is raised to the status of ‘citizen ‘