Maze first favourite for stadium site…
The Press Association has a copy of the conclusions of a Price Waterhouse reportt on the viability of the plans to convert the Maze prison site into a sport stadium. The report was commissioned by the Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure, Edwin Poots, a strong supporter of the Maze plan. However the report is with the Minister of Finance who is sure to give those figures a thorough going over.
Key Figures:
- first four years operation cost £37m.
- a 38,500-seat stadium
-hosting 23 major sporting and music events par
- just under 500,000 paying spectators.
It would appear to be the Maze or nothing…
You’re quite right: all the journalists are capable of is regurgitating government press releases.
Investigative journalism seems to rest solely with David Gordon in the BT, and he hasn’t been put on to the Maze charade.
willow
You “couldn’t be sure” that the stadium could generate £50m each year … but above you said you “presumed” that it would. Why do you make that presumption?
Because a business case has been put forward that says it can be done by an Accountancy firm, which presumably know something about money and research. This convinces me more than a “It’s a big figure so I don’t believe it!!!!!!1111111″ argument.
George’s figures for Croke are more convincing, seeing as it is currently hosting GAA, football, rugby and music events and is much bigger and only approaching those sorts of figures. I wouldn’t worry too much if it was ten years to pay off instead of five, since it should last a lot longer, but I don’t see it stacking up with those amounts.
The alternatives may, however, be even more expensive, so the taxpayer might want to fund it. Personally happy if they just fund the 3 sports separately, Windsor Park remains a craphole and my taxes go only something else but it doesn’t automatically follow it isn’t the right choice.
should be dead in the water now
How true. Came back to read it again. It does not improve second time round. We would be fools to proceed.
Here’s a question – if the Maze is going to be such a money-spinner, why are private investors not queuing up to build it and why the need for £240m of taxpayers’ money?
The more you look at it the worse it gets.
PWC admit that there isn’t the critical mass of financial services necessary to create huge demand for corporate or premium tickets and they reckon that even if NI ever does develop one then only 4,000 could be sold.
However, they believe 1,300 (300 in boxes and 1,000) is a more realistic figure at present.
Lansdowne Rd expect to get just over 80 million euros from the sale of 35 corporate boxes and 10,000 premium seats. That’s around 50 million sterling from 11,600 prime seats.
As PWC admit, the Maze product is not as attractive financially as Lansdowne, which is in a city with a huge multi-billion euro Financial Services Sector (IFSC employs nearly 25,000 people), can offer Six Nations, UEFA Cup finals and ROI football.
So the Maze will initially have around one tenth of the corporate customers/premium seating of Lansdowne so I assume it will get one tenth of the revenue. That works out at 5 million over 10 years in my book.
But even if we suspend reality and take it that the Maze does indeed get 23 events and somehow manages to sell every single one of its 29,900 premium and corporate tickets, it still comes out at around 2 million a year or 20 million over ten years.
Let’s be generous and say they also get 10 million for the naming rights of the stadium, which is three-quarters of the 20-million euro sum that Lansdowne are hoping for.
We will also be supremely generous and give half of the operating profit of Croke Park on a normal year which is 5 million.
That gives us a grand total of 80 million in revenue over 10 years.
But we are looking at a stadium costing 240 million to build at today’s prices. This price is almost certain to rise.
That leaves us with a shortfall of at least 160 million pounds plus the accumulated interest after 10 years.
Without large amounts of public money, this project will sink in a sea of debt.
The thing that strikes me is that the first thread I ever posted on Slugger was related to the stadium issue. That’s nearly five years ago now. My views have evolved in that time. Now, I think it’s time we forgot about this stadium charade. I say keep some of the H Blocks as a museum and sell the rest of the land at the Maze to property developers. It should bring in a few hundred million.
Take whatever money has been put aside for this White Elephant and spend it building railways. Then give £100m or more to Queen’s and to tell them to: a) vastly increase scientific research, and b) build a full-blown Faculty of Economics that can be a world-leader.
Then maybe in ten years we’ll be able to afford to blow a few hundred million on a stadium, or at least have an educated population able to do the sums.
As for the three sports, let them look to themselves.
david – “Perhaps the IFA should drop the English anthem & unionist flag, stop interferring in the rights of Irishmen to represent their country on the international football stage & start disciplining teams who commemorate terrorists – Irvine & Glentoran”
I assume you are an educated man who is trying to stir. You know perfectly well that GSTQ is the anthem of the UK and it’s up to the associations to decide what to use. As to teams supporting terrorism, it says everything if that’s all you can say regarding the IFA. But I assume you don’t want to mention the real terrorist links of the GAA i.e. Mairead Farrell Camogie tournament, Kevin Lynch club Dungiven, the Michael McVerry cup, the use of Casement Park for a Sinn Fein PIRA rally, Cumann na Fuiseoige (Bobby Sands), Gerard and Martin Harte Memorial Cup for U12s (Tyrone), Louis Leonard Memorial Park (Fermanagh), Lochrie/Campbell Park (Dromintee Football Club, S.Armagh) etc etc etc
Billy Pilgrim – “I say keep some of the H Blocks as a museum”
So you pretend that you don’t support terrorism yet want to keep this terrorist shrine. Well at least we finally know where you really stand regarding these murderers.
I went onto the BBC website to access and read the report and alreay the story has been dropped.
Is this latest Pwc whitewash actually presented as a Business Plan? I just heard it described as a ‘report’.
One of the most galling aspects of this is that the membership of the GAA have not been asked for their opinion at all – which is not the usual GAA way. Only on this issue and the crazy ‘pay for play’ issue has the GAA civil service not sought opinions from clubs or counties.
Is this latest Pwc whitewash actually presented as a Business Plan? I just heard it described as a ‘report’.
Interesting, no it isn’t being described as a business-plan.
Also the language in the BBC report is a bit on the “strident” side with no direct quotes- companies like PWC don’t do “strident”, leaves them open for all kinds of legal action if the roof later falls in on the project.
I wonder who leaked it, on the figures we’ve seen so far it certainly hasn’t helped out Edwin, the Shinners and the rest of the pro-Mazers .
For Maze read Wembley.
Massive cost overuns and never likely to be viable without a major input from public funds.
Even in Belfast it is a non starter.
Why would the GAA and Rugby give money to this project from their own income streams when they have acceptable facilites already?
STOP THIS MADNESS NOW!
Firstly What happens to part of the Maze is a separate issue to the stadium. The both should not be linked and a decision on one made because of the other. One could in fact detract from the other.
George
Without large amounts of public money, this project will sink in a sea of debt.
It is a complete non starter. The only model that I can think of that would make a stadium viable is one that maximises ancillary usage and spin off development. The sports side will never pay for this venture especially with the necessary infra structure costs.
Willowfield
Here’s a question – if the Maze is going to be such a money-spinner, why are private investors not queuing up to build it and why the need for £240m of taxpayers’ money?
Not one penny of public funds should be put into this, and no private developer will consider this project in that location without unnecessary and massive inducement. However given the right framework I could see developers being interested in other sites, provided they were constructively assisted by the Planning Service rather than hindered. To make this work you need comprehensive development, incorporating, bars, perhaps cinemas, hotels, shops, restaurants, offices, residential and you need to be able to hold concerts as well as sporting activity. It needs to be a high density development, and high usage day and night right in the middle of Belfast. A development that is used 7 days a week and 365 days a year. A place for people with accommodation and varied activity.
If that is the sort of criteria there will be plenty of developers interested.
Same applies to the Maze prison do it right and widen the scope and it will then get visitors, but we need to think outside the box and do something clever.
The last thing NI needs is two ventures that are a drain on the public purse.
The maze site just sell it for housing, it is so obvious that it really is a no brainer.
Sammy Morse
Denial, self-delusion and bullshit are the three pillars of the Northern Ireland economy.
NI Business, what little there is of it, knows we are screwed. Wish the same could be said for NI Civil Service and Politicians.
Why would the GAA and Rugby give money to this project from their own income streams when they have acceptable facilites already?
Fair point on Casement, but Ravenhill is rank.
The maze site just sell it for housing, it is so obvious that it really is a no brainer.
That probably isn’t such an attractive proposition just at the moment, and if you think the property market is in the state I think it is, it may not be for a year or two.
Sammy Morse
The housing market has hit the rocks at the minute but we should comparing the decline against sharp increases.
Good housing in the right location will sell and between Lisburn and Hillsborough should be sufficiently attractive.Given the changes in Secondary education who knows may even be attractive to postcode selection.
There is a shortage of development land sell it for housing as & when we are on the next rise. The real worry on housing is will there be a severe recession but unless that happens about 20% drop is likely However with interest rates low and falling, reasonable levels of employment and a shortage of good family homes don’t expect houses to fall much beyond that. The real problem at the minute is the credit squeeze and poor standards of operation in banking.
Sammy
Ravenhill v Windsor I know where I would want to go!
Acceptable does not mean good it means acceptable and I think Ravenhill is acceptable for 10,000 crowds apart from the lack of parking.
Very disappointing performance by the Assembly committee today. They gave Poots an easy ride.
They didn’t query the huge costs.
They didn’t query the assumptions about spectator numbers, number and types of events, and revenue.
They didn’t ask about transport.
They didn’t ask about environmental impacts.
George: “IFSC employs nearly 25,000 people”
Are you sure – I work there occassionally and it is about the same size as the financial bits around Belfast City Hall. I’d say 2,500 would be closer.
P&J;”So you pretend that you don’t support terrorism yet want to keep this terrorist shrine. Well at least we finally know where you really stand regarding these murderers.”
I don’t support terrorism. Nor do I support the expunging of history, or the destruction of historically significant sites. I had the harrowing privilege of visiting Auschwitz once, which was the site of evil on a scale far beyond anything associated with the Maze. I’m glad the Polish government has kept it. I’m glad there will be a permanent memorial site at Ground Zero. I’m glad the observatory at Hiroshima has been preserved. I’m glad Kilmainham Gaol and the Tower of London and Robben Island and Alcatraz are all open to the public. I’m glad the Crown Bar is protected. I’m extremely sorry that the incomparable Kitchen Bar is no more. I’m sorry the Taliban blew up the giant Buddhas. I’m sorry the Chinese are systematically deconstructing Llasa as we speak.
I’m a big fan of preserving history, you see. I’m a big believer in letting future generations make up their own minds about what happened. I’m opposed to destroying the evidence.
Nothing whatsoever to do with a “shrine”. Is Alcatraz a “shrine”?
Nothing whatsoever to do with a “shrine”. Is Alcatraz a “shrine”?
Are there former inmates of Alcatraz, and supporters of those inmates, who wish to turn it into a shrine?
No, I don’t think so.
Are there former inmates of the Maze, and supporters of those inmates, who wish to turn it into a shrine?
Yes.
And what, they are the ones who get to decide this, are they?
Would YOU regard it as a shrine? I presume you wouldn’t. Yet you seem to defer to those who would?
I wouldn’t. Clearly it’s a site of historical significance. That’s all. To destroy it would be an act of self-destruction. And that goes for everyone, regardless of how you’d regard the site.
Do you mean are there former inmates of Alcatraz who want to turn it into a museum? Well here’s the thing – it already is one!
The word shrine is a word bandied about by Unionists only, there will be a museum at the maze as there should be due to the momentous events which happened there.
Understandably many unionists wish to purge history of anything that might be viewed as republican or show unionism in a bad light (which involves purging a lot of history). They bleat on about terrorist shrines, as if the lingo makes a difference.
It doesn’t – the days of Unionist soundbites and never never never are long gone, you can call it what you like, you can call our politicians names, and use inuendo as fact – and it won’t make a lick of difference. Republicanism is a legitimate political ideology and we will have our memorials whether you want us to or not.
The reaction to this thread is hilarious – pavlovian almost. An example would be the talk of infrastructure (or lack of it in Lisburn) so what we need is a bunch of roads and rail links going to a giant field in the arse hole of nowhere – only then we can build a stadium because the infrastructure is already there.
The talk of Belfast’s existing infrastructure is total balls, in the past year this town has been gridlocked twice for about 4 hours, once due to one car accident on the M2. It takes me over an hour to drive five miles to work how the fuck is this town supposed to handle the extra people? I can just see an extra 15000 cars making no difference to our traffic.
On the other hand there’s the maze – M1 and trainlines right beside the site. OK as yet they haven’t magically extended themselves to go into the maze site, but I think we’d need to put something at the maze before we start extending the road network into an empty prison.
On the flipside of that how do the 15,000 cars get to Ormeau Park? Which main road? Which train station do the thousands of fans expect to use? It’s a joke, knee jerk reaction.
At the end of the day do we want a stadium? I think if you’re going to define this place as a country maybe one decent stadium might be in order. So do you expect it for free? No we need to pay something, and try to earn money back to pay for it. Is it cheaper at the Maze? A thousand times yes.
So if they said let’s build a stadium in the center of town at twice the cost would the NI fans here complain? Would they fuck, the only reason money matters, is because they ain’t getting what they want.
At the end of the day do we want a stadium?
No and we don’t need one either.
Bung the 37 million, split three ways to the three different sports, it’ll work out a lot cheaper in the long run that either a White Elephant at the Maze or any alternative in Belfast. Or nobody gets anything and just leave it up to the IFA to sort out their own mess.
Republicanism is a legitimate political ideology and we will have our memorials whether you want us to or not.
If you want to build a memorial honouring your brave heroes who delivered us La Mon, Enniskillen etc feel free to do so, but with your money and out of the sight of decent people.
Willowfield
Very disappointing performance by the Assembly committee today. They gave Poots an easy ride.
They didn’t query the huge costs.
They didn’t query the assumptions about spectator numbers, number and types of events, and revenue.
They didn’t ask about transport.
They didn’t ask about environmental impacts.
The longer this Assembly runs the clearer it becomes that these people do not have the necessary ability to run this place, and that the structures permit complacency utter mediocrity.
Anonymous
“Bung the 37 million, split three ways to the three different sports, it’ll work out a lot cheaper in the long run that either a White Elephant at the Maze or any alternative in Belfast.”
This is a fair point. They’re building a new 5,000 seat stand with state-of-the-art ancillary facilities at Healy Park in Omagh in a £5 million development. How much would it cost to build three new yellowpack stands at Windsor? Couldn’t it be done on the cheap? Say £15m?
How much would it cost to build three new yellowpack stands at Windsor? Couldn’t it be done on the cheap? Say £15m?
BP
It seems to me that the IFA and especially Howard Wells have serious delusions of grandeur- they want a state of the art stadium without of course the IFA paying the price.
So yes, do the necessary upgrade on the cheap meeting the basic safety standards and sod the aesthetics, I’d say that would fall well below 20 million quid.
The NI supporters have demonstrated their opposition to the Maze, OK, then let them stay at a cheap and basic bucket-seated Windsor which is fit for purpose. If they want more luxury, then they pay for the via bond schemes as happened with several of the bigger clubs in England.
Bottom line is that the construction of and maintenance of sports stadiums, is not our main priority at the minute. 200 plus million is too big a gamble.
Billy Pilgrim
And what, they are the ones who get to decide this, are they?
Well, yes – who else is going to turn it into a shrine?
Would YOU regard it as a shrine? I presume you wouldn’t. Yet you seem to defer to those who would?
I doubt whether the Provos will be consulting me before turning it into a shrine: they’ll go ahead and do it anyway.
I wouldn’t. Clearly it’s a site of historical significance. That’s all. To destroy it would be an act of self-destruction. And that goes for everyone, regardless of how you’d regard the site.
A site of “historical significance” to those who want to glorify terrorism.
nmc
Do you mean are there former inmates of Alcatraz who want to turn it into a museum?
No. I mean there are no former inmates, or supporters of those inmates, who want to turn it into a shrine! That’s why I said just that!
Well here’s the thing – it already is one!
I know.
The word shrine is a word bandied about by Unionists only, there will be a museum at the maze as there should be due to the momentous events which happened there. Understandably many unionists wish to purge history of anything that might be viewed as republican or show unionism in a bad light (which involves purging a lot of history). They bleat on about terrorist shrines, as if the lingo makes a difference.
A proper, objective museum would not show unionism in a bad light: it would show nationalist and loyalist terrorists in a bad light (they were the ones locked up for terrorism!). The Provos, though, wish to use the H Blocks as a propaganda site to glorify terrorism.
The reaction to this thread is hilarious – pavlovian almost. An example would be the talk of infrastructure (or lack of it in Lisburn) so what we need is a bunch of roads and rail links going to a giant field in the arse hole of nowhere – only then we can build a stadium because the infrastructure is already there.
The above comment doesn’t seem to make sense. Why is it “hilarious” to talk of the lack of infrastructure at the Maze?
The talk of Belfast’s existing infrastructure is total balls, in the past year this town has been gridlocked twice for about 4 hours, once due to one car accident on the M2. It takes me over an hour to drive five miles to work how the fuck is this town supposed to handle the extra people? I can just see an extra 15000 cars making no difference to our traffic.
If you think Belfast can’t handle traffic, how on earth could the Maze cope with 15,000 cars attempting to enter the same road at once?? And that’s without there being an accident. How could it cope if there were an accident?
Also, maybe you don’t know much about sport, but events tend not to take place early in the morning or at teatime, therefore there would be no “extra people” using the roads. Those attending events would not be arriving and leaving at peak times.
Maybe you don’t realise that the M1 and Westlink are being upgraded at present?
Maybe you don’t realise that there are railways serving Belfast?
Maybe you don’t realise that Belfast is a city with entertainment venues which attract people before and after sports events? This means that some traffic arrives earlier and later than would be the case if everyone were just arriving for the sports event and nothing else.
Maybe you don’t realise that Belfast is a city where people can walk? People can get buses into the centre and walk to a ground. People who live near the venue can walk from their homes. This means fewer people using cars.
Maybe you don’t realise that Belfast is the public transport hub for NI, with buses arriving from and departing for various towns on a regular basis?
Maybe you don’t realise that Belfast has more than one road serving it? It has the M1, M2, A1, A2, A6, A20, A23, A24, etc.
On the other hand there’s the maze – M1 and trainlines right beside the site. OK as yet they haven’t magically extended themselves to go into the maze site, but I think we’d need to put something at the maze before we start extending the road network into an empty prison.
So the Maze has one motorway running past (with plans for one slip road) and an inadequately-situated railway station? Right.
On the flipside of that how do the 15,000 cars get to Ormeau Park? Which main road? Which train station [sic] do the thousands of fans expect to use? It’s a joke, knee jerk reaction.
Well, 15,000 cars don’t need to get to Ormeau Park (if that’s where the stadium would be). They only need to get to Belfast centre from where the drivers and passengers can walk or get a bus. Plus, fewer cars would be needed in the first place, since many would walk or get public transport. And those travelling by train would use Central Station.
Is it cheaper at the Maze? A thousand times yes.
So a stadium costing £240m at the Maze is cheaper than one costing less than 10% of that at Ormeau Park? Right.
Plus, note that a city stadium is the only stadium with any chance of creating wider economic benefits.
Well, 15,000 cars don’t need to get to Ormeau Park (if that’s where the stadium would be). They only need to get to Belfast centre from where the drivers and passengers can walk or get a bus. Plus, fewer cars would be needed in the first place, since many would walk or get public transport. And those travelling by train would use Central Station.
Yes, and Puff the Magic Dragon lived by the sea. Proponents of the Ormeau site (typically Belfast-based NI fans who seem to think that that they’re getting an IFA-owned ‘National Stadium’ that will be generously loaned out to the Taigs once in a while) tend to forget that the GAA are expected to account for more than 50% of the expected ticket sales (or at least I heard it claimed on the radio on Monday). Anyone who has ever been to a major game at Casement can relate tales of horror of cars being parked on the M1 slipway and total gridlock around the stadium before and after the game. Few appear to take the ‘park in city centre and enjoy leisurely stroll to stadium’ option. Transfer this situation to a major arterial route into the city centre and who knows what will happen, especially in a place where the emergency services are keen to close a motorway for 8 hours after a lorry sheds some bricks. A few shuttle buses and a couple of foot bridges aren’t going to cut it.
The Pwc “business case” is on the DCAL web site
http://www.dcalni.gov.uk/proposed_multi_sports_stadium_for_northern_ireland_-_business_case_-_final_report_november_2007.pdf
They’re planning to hold the Irish Cup final (attendance forecast at 10,000) in a 38,500 stadium!
Also forecasting one “football tournament” a year with two matches – by which they mean some ridiculous pre-season affair.
Proponents of the Ormeau site (typically Belfast-based NI fans who seem to think that that they’re getting an IFA-owned ‘National Stadium’ that will be generously loaned out to the Taigs once in a while) tend to forget that the GAA are expected to account for more than 50% of the expected ticket sales (or at least I heard it claimed on the radio on Monday). Anyone who has ever been to a major game at Casement can relate tales of horror of cars being parked on the M1 slipway and total gridlock around the stadium before and after the game. Few appear to take the ‘park in city centre and enjoy leisurely stroll to stadium’ option. Transfer this situation to a major arterial route into the city centre and who knows what will happen, especially in a place where the emergency services are keen to close a motorway for 8 hours after a lorry sheds some bricks. A few shuttle buses and a couple of foot bridges aren’t going to cut it.
Casement Park isn’t in the city centre.
Nor near it.
Casement Park isn’t in the city centre.
Sorry, did I claim it was? Neither is Ormeau Park so, and not for the first time, I’m left wondering what your point is (apart from providing an outlet for your obsessive-compulsive behaviour).
However to fend off any future pedantry, Casement Park is well-serviced, while ostensibly at least, in terms of transport access (metro, black taxis), the point is barely anyone uses them on match day.
Sorry, did I claim it was?
Well, yes, the implication of your post was that Casement Park was at least near the city centre.
Neither is Ormeau Park
Ormeau Park is near the city centre: within walking distance.
so, and not for the first time, I’m left wondering what your point is (apart from providing an outlet for your obsessive-compulsive behaviour).
The point – rather obviously – is that comparing Casement and Ormeau parks doesn’t work, since the former is on the outskirts of the city while the latter is near the city centre. Hence the latter can be reached on foot and public transport more easily and conveniently than the latter.
However to fend off any future pedantry, Casement Park is well-serviced, while ostensibly at least, in terms of transport access (metro, black taxis), the point is barely anyone uses them on match day.
You can’t really walk to it from the city centre, can you?
Ormeau Park is within easy walking distance from the city centre.
I would question if people posting in favour of the Maze here have much experience of attending matches of whatever sport at a city-centre-based sports stadium. I can’t remember the last time I travelled by car to a match; I usually go by bus or alternatively walk in to the town if I’m feeling healthy.
Dec, the reason NI football fans have been so vociferous is because it’s our Association that has most publicly thrown its weight behind this white elephant; rugby and GAA fans seem ambivalent, and rightly so – both (especially the GAA) already have grounds of a good standard capable of holding the numbers they need – in the case of Clones, in a location exempt from VAT as well. They aren’t being asked to commit to any concrete arrangements, and are being offered the possibilty of a shiny new stadium to use occasionally in exchange for nowt – in other words, they won’t be left high and dry if/when it all goes wrong, so they can afford to take it or leave it. Whereas there’s a very good chance we will end up being the main tenants, trying to fill an enormous bowl in the middle of nowhere, and the taxpayer will have to pick up the pieces.
The misconceptions seem to be that a) we don’t want to share with the GAA and b) we are all foaming at the mouth about the H Blocks.
Personally, I don’t give two figs who we share the stadium with, as long as it’s in Belfast. And the ‘conflict transformation centre’ or whatever it’s called hasn’t really come into the equation in my mind. I reckon it’ll proceed in some shape or form regardless of what happens with the stadium, and that unionists are better off being an integral part of the process, to make sure that the story being put across isn’t horribly one-sided and inequal.
A proper, objective museum …a propaganda site to glorify terrorism.
First up, if you want a proper museum then get involved and express an opinion instead of just shouting “no” from the sidelines – that approach doesn’t work any more as demonstrated by Ian Paisley. Second, you seem to know what provos think beyond what they have stated. You think propoganda site/shrine – no Republican or provo ever uttered the words. So if you want to influence things get involved, if not then continue complaining and being ignored.
The above comment doesn’t seem to make sense. Why is it “hilarious” to talk of the lack of infrastructure at the Maze?
Why would there be adequate infrastructure going to an empty prison? If roads are needed they have to be built they don’t appear themselves, and at present no-one has seen the need to build roads or train lines going to an empty prison however if a stadium were built then would be the time to consider infrastructure.
If you think Belfast can’t handle traffic, how on earth …cope if there were an accident?
I know Belfast can’t handle traffic, as does every other driver in Belfast. How can the Maze cope? Same way every other stadium works. People leave via a slip road onto a motorway. No problem. If there’s an accident I would imagine that the procedure would be the same as in the centre of Belfast. The cops do what they have to do then wheel the car out of the way. No biggie. I do know that Belfast has come to a standstill a couple of times due to accidents so Belfast has nothing to crow about in that respect.
Also, maybe you don’t …would not be arriving and leaving at peak times.
Typical arrogance. So what is the point. Belfast is at a critical situation traffic wise and you seem to be holding it up as an example of somewhere that CAN handle traffic. It’s laughable.
Maybe you don’t realise that there are railways serving Belfast?
Typical arrogance. Again I know this, but these rail lines don’t go to the non-existant site so what’s the point? If the rail network is to incorporate a Belfast stadium, it will have to be extended and a new station built. You may think it’s cheaper to extend rail through cities than countryside but you may be surprised to learn you are incorrect.
Maybe you don’t realise that Belfast is a city with entertainment …sports event and nothing else.
Typical arrogance. Of course I know this I live here. Again I go back to the point that you expect all these services, infrastructure and entertainment in an empty prison. Once more for the slow learners – you need to start the development before roads, businesses and railway lines are put in place. Who wants to open a restaurant at the maze now? No-one the maze is empty. When there’s a stadium there, then developers will show interest.
Maybe you don’t realise that Belfast is a city …This means fewer people using cars.
Typical arrogance. Can you provide evidence of fewer people using cars, because you’re talking through your hat. There are more cars now than ever before, and people will drive regardless because people don’t want to use public transport. This is backed up by Belfast’s chronic traffic problems, even to the point where the bus drivers are talking about striking over the head of it.
Maybe you don’t realise that Belfast is the public transport hub for NI, with buses arriving from and departing for various towns on a regular basis?
Typical arrogance. So what? If there’s a stadium at the maze, public transport will be put on. I gaurantee it. So what difference does Belfast, (and the rest of NI) having a public transport system make? If the maze is made into a new stadium it will be incorporated into said public transport system.
Maybe you don’t realise that Belfast has more than one road serving it? It has the M1, M2, A1, A2, A6, A20, A23, A24, etc.
And by extention the maze. It will have access to the M1 and through it every other part of NI. Again, not too many stadiums have multiple roads and motorways serving them directly, usually you drive out onto a road, which leads you to another road and through a series of choices you can get to your destination. Easy.
So the Maze has one motorway running past (with plans for one slip road) and an inadequately-situated railway station? Right.
Ok, how many motorways are necessary? One would be the answer, unless you think it would be necessary to have multiple motorways servicing a stadium? Madness. It has motorway access – excellent tick that check box. The train station isn’t in the right place? REALLY? LOL, back to point above – the train station isn’t going to pick itself up and move itself to an empty prison now is it? That’s right, once again we need a stadium before we build the infrastructure, jesus wept it seems obvious to me. At least the train line is nearby and extendable without vesting property.
Maybe you don’t realise that the M1 and Westlink are being upgraded at present?
Typical arrogance. I do realise this what is the point. The M1 doesn’t come near anywhere of use in terms of a Belfast site.
Well, 15,000 cars don’t need to get to Ormeau Park (if that’s where … walk or get public transport. And those travelling by train would use Central Station.
Excellent why don’t we put you in charge of rush hour traffic problems then. You can just tell everyone to catch a bus, and they’ll do it. The same transport is available Monday to Sunday with bus lanes to speed your journey – the politicians are begging us to use it and more and more of us AREN’T. Get your head around that will you, it might be ideal for people to catch a bus. Doesn’t mean they’ll do it, in fact all the evidence points to the fact that they won’t.
So a stadium costing £240m at the Maze is cheaper than one costing less than 10% of that at Ormeau Park? Right.
Where do you get your figures from? Simple equation – Belfast land is more expensive than Lisburn land, so the exact same building located in Belfast will cost more.
Plus, note that a city stadium is the only stadium with any chance of creating wider economic benefits.
For Belfast. But your crystal ball has been on the fritz ever since the Shinners walked into Stormont. You can’t begin to hypothesise about what might happen with a Maze stadium in terms of “wider economic benefits”.
DK,
George: “IFSC employs nearly 25,000 people”
Are you sure – I work there occassionally and it is about the same size as the financial bits around Belfast City Hall. I’d say 2,500 would be closer.
I took the figure from the Sunday Business Post:
“Now there are in excess of 430 standalone IFSC operations in business, in addition to over 700 further entities under outsourced management. The numbers employed in the three core sectors of banking, funds and insurance stood at 22,177 people at the end of December 2006, up by 16 per cent from 19,095 on the same date a year earlier.”
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2007/06/03/story24010.asp
Taking the same level of growth in 2007, I would assume the number is now around 25,000.
Maybe if all the MLAs relocated their offices to the stadium the rental income could be used to subsidise the stadium?
However to fend off any future pedantry, Casement Park is well-serviced, while ostensibly at least, in terms of transport access (metro, black taxis), the point is barely anyone uses them on match day.
You can’t really walk to it from the city centre, can you?
Considering you’re completing missing the point and inventing arguments there’s not much point.
DM
You’re perfectly entiled to your preference, but if the GAA is expected to provide more than 50% of ticket sales then the location has to suit them. Having the stadium in inner-city Belfast clearly does not suit their demographic.
George – IFSC’s own site says 10,700. I think the business post is maybe counting other employees of companies based in the IFSC (e.g. AIB has an HQ there, but lots of employees in branches elsewhere).
I have to laugh at the hopelessly ill-informed, or just delusional, who claim that the GAA already have excellent stadia in Ulster.
Clones, and especially Casement are third world when compared to Windsor, never mind modern stadia elsewhere is Europe.
The vast majority stand on uncovered concrete terraces.
I think Casement’s stand only holds about three thousand.
The stand in Clones only holds a couple of thousand more.
You should all go some day and have a look.
The GAA needs this stadium just as much as the IFA, the only differnece is that their need is medium term, not short term.
If any of you can be bothered to establish the GAA’s true position, google for the GAA’s Strategic Review Report, published about 4 years ago.
It clearly identified a 40k + stadium, at least two thirds covered and seated as a priority for Ulster.
Paul – I will confess to never having been to the venues mentioned, I am simply going on the word of GAA-following friends who don’t seem to care much about the new stadium.
DM,
“Paul – I will confess to never having been to the venues mentioned, I am simply going on the word of GAA-following friends who don’t seem to care much about the new stadium.”
Then you are firmly in the ill-informed category.
I’d say the GAA are better placed to know the GAA’s position than your friends.
What I find really sad about this debate is the narrow context which ends up with a negative outcome.
I am very sure if the criteria were amended to include some flexibility within the usual Planning constraints, some public funding for infra structure, which would benefit the entire city and not just the stadium that developers may well be interested.
The National stadium of Wales cost £126million of which 46 million came from the lottery. Raising 80 million isn’t that difficult. Ideally the scheme should be a more dense development than Cardiff so we and the developers maximise gain. Good location and a bit of flexibility and I have absolutely no doubt that the stadium could be built but NO DEVELOPER is going to touch a political hot potato and no one is going to put up with inter sport bickering. Why would anyone put their finance into a scheme if the prime users cannot agree?
There is a big difference between a city centre scheme costing £126 million of which £46 million is from the lottery and £240 million and an aspiration that the books will be all right on the night.
Why not an open competition for the design with a prize? You never know what may materalise.
id love to see the business case for a ‘conflict transformation’ building aswell as a stadium at the maze. if they want to build a reasonably large conference type building then there must be an idea of some sort of stream of ‘business’ that it would cater for? is there a list of say 10 conflicts that could be lined up to be transformed at the maze? are there behind the scenes bookings of afghan and iraqi leaders that we dont know about? As you’re reading this, is hamid karsi winging his way down the A1 in a black tac for an advance look at the venue? Cant really see it myself.
who pays for the upkeep of the conflict transformation centre? is it run on a no conflict transformed, no fee basis? or is there a flat fee to use it? how much would it cost a country to have their conflict transformed in Norn Iron? perhaps the costs of catering for the delegates, their accommodation, and all the requirements of long drawn out talks would just be covered by the massive profit the almost daily events at the maze stadium would be generating? maybe the CTC would host its own concerts to raise a bit of cash. i can just see it ..
“Snow Patrol….. LIVE at The Conflict Transformation Centre, Maze Prison, Northern Ireland. DONT MISS IT !!”
does anyone know any detail on what would go on at the CTC? are there other CTCs around the world that we’re hoping to emulate?
as far as i know, talks to resolve conflicts are done in ordinary conference venues anywhere around the world. the idea of a CTC seems a bit stupid.
maybe its a bit unkind, but i think our politicans have got a bit light headed after managing to end our conflict. they’ve lost the run of themselves and decided that we can end all the worlds ills. they’ve decided to build (drum rolls please…..) a Conflict Transformation Centre !!
the problem is, while they’ve been looking around and smiling at each other, marvelling at how wonderful they are, i dont think anymore detail other than a nice sounding title has been worked out.
to me the idea of some sort of centre that people would flock to from all over the world is ludicrous. add to that locating it in a field in the arse hole of nowhere in northern ireland and you’ve got possibly the daftest idea of the century
I think it’s about documenting our transformed conflict, as opposed to transforming others conflicts.
documenting? are you sure? i thought it was some sort of talks venue. id still like to know what would go on there. surely theres more than enough material in bbc/media archives? are you saying its intended to be some sort of data storage location for the troubles?
nmc
Is there any chance you can stop posting, you really are beginning to bug me with your stupidity.
DK,
I don’t know if that is the case, maybe it’s the 700 outsourced firms that make up the 15,000 to bring it to 25,000.
Either way, I only used the figure to point out that the Republic has a very large financial business services sector.
I could just have easily said the sector now employs 150,000 in the Republic with a substantial number of these people situated in Dublin, thus making demand for corporate seats higher.
Paul – having no insight into gaelic games myself, I should then ignore the opinions of my GAA-supporting friends? People who attend games, follow teams and counties and generally are much better informed than me? Or should I just ignore them when they say they don’t care either way about a new stadium and only listen to Nicky Brennan or whoever?