“He was sidelined to the point of being removed from any work.”
Following on from yesterday’s MI5 protective custody for Adams’ driver story there are a couple of reports worth noting. In the Irish Times, Gerry Moriarty notes, “Sinn Féin Assembly member Alex Maskey said he and other senior republicans were disappointed but not terribly surprised by the news.” While in the Guardian Henry McDonald reports that -
“It is understood MI5 advised him to leave his west Belfast home after it emerged that an internal IRA investigation found he had been working for the British for more than a decade.”
Which would raise the question – who exactly was conducting that investigation? And, with McShane reportedly already ‘sidelined’, to what end? This Irish News report may point to a possible answer.. [subs req] Updated belowAdds Also in the Irish News [subs req]
In February 2006 Sinn Fein unexpectedly replaced all its Belfast-based drivers and bodyguards for Mr Adams and other senior republican politicians. It is unclear if this decision was linked to suspicions that McShane was working as a spy.
Originally from Lurgan in Co Armagh, he had lived in west Belfast from his early teens, sharing a house in the lower Falls with IRA leader Billy McMillan in the mid-1960s.
He is understood to have been a member of the Territorial Army for a time during this period.
Throughout the Troubles McShane worked as a cabinet maker in west Belfast.
It is understood he served little or no time in prison.
However, he was implicated in one of the worst murders of the Troubles when West German industrialist Thomas Niedermayer was abducted and killed in December 1973.
In the 1980s McShane is known to have been a member of the IRA ‘nutting squad’.
As a member of that unit he was close to Freddie Scappaticci and, ironically, would have had the task of exposing agents within the IRA.
In 1989 that internal security unit was stood down over concerns that it had been infiltrated by the British intelligence agencies.
In what would prove to be a crucial mistake the IRA moved many of those involved in the ‘nutting squad’ into protection and driving roles for the Sinn Fein leadership.
For more than 20 years McShane was regularly seen driving the Sinn Fein leadership to and from meetings.
Following the decision to bring an end to McShane’s role as a Sinn Fein driver he is understood to have been working as a taxi driver in the lower Falls where he had been living in recent years.
Republican sources last night recalled that McShane had shown strong contempt for Sinn Fein administrator Denis Donaldson after he was exposed as a British agent in December 2005.
And from another Irish Times report by Gerry Moriarty [subs req]
A senior Sinn Féin spokesman yesterday suggested that in recent years, at least, the party suspected McShane was an informer. “He was sidelined to the point of being removed from any work.” Nonetheless, while he did not have a strategic role in the party, he was physically close to those who did – and at important times in the long negotiating process that finally led to the May 8th, 2007, powersharing deal. He’s been around a long time.
This will hardly be the last such revelation, which has caused quite an amount of shock in west Belfast and other republican areas. When Lord Eames and Denis Bradley and other members of the commission on the past travelled to London to examine the Stevens papers on collusion, they were said to be shocked by how deeply the IRA and Sinn Féin were infiltrated.
If MI5 could land catches such as Denis Donaldson and McShane, it follows that it is likely it netted other senior figures. It is likely that if McShane was outed, others too will be exposed, perhaps on a drip-drip basis to cause continuing embarrassment to Sinn Féin. This latest revelation should not destabilise the current regime at Stormont, but it will upset ordinary republicans, causing them to wonder what the “war” was about, was the IRA leadership really in control, who was genuine, who was a “tout”. That must be uncomfortable and annoying for Adams and other leaders, but it is just something they must live with it and manage.
Republicans said McShane could return to west Belfast if he makes peace with his family and his community and that he was under no threat from the IRA. But McShane will be mindful that Denis Donaldson, in whose company he was often seen at Stormont, had similar assurances, and yet ended up gunned to death in a cottage in Donegal.
Nationalists in the North must realise that they alone will not set the agenda for any change -ulsterfan
I think it is unionists who need to come to this realisation. because the time of unionists holding any sway in westminister are long gone, the privliged minority dictating to the majority in Ireland are thankfully long gone !
Thanks, Joe, but my question was to “Mooch.” And if it is all so “simple,” why on earth would Denis Donaldson, no innocent up from the country, calculate that the best option available to him for survival was to appear at a press conference flanked by Adams and McGuinness to announce to the world that he had been a paid spy for British intelligence?
Joe
It seems that the SF posters here will talk about anything other than the latest spy scandel.
I’m not SF. Neither is the Dubliner. The PIRA was riddled with spies. I have no doubt there are more. Finally fed up with the Dubliner’s STP, so took it out here. I could have picked twenty other threads.
ulsterfan
Nationalism has more than enough influence now to force a referendum if it thinks it can win it; it can collapse the institutions and paralyse government if it chooses. By the time a referendum is winnable, it might well have a larger seat total than Unionism to boot.
Neither government can ignore a positive vote, Such an overturning of democracy would almost certainly lead to renewed instability and violence.
Unity is not inevitable. However, the continued existence of the UK is not guaranteed at the moment either, much less the status quo in NI. We live in a period of flux. If Unionism wishes to rely of the hope that things will always be as they are, or that democracy can be successfully defeated by the threat of force, then I am much happier they take that direction than embrace the idea they need to change and politically fight their corner.
Mick
So was the leak intended to punish? If it originated with MI5 it hardly seems likely it was designed to pull unionists back into line. And if it was intended as punishment, why trigger it now?
It is worrying. You could equally ask: how much more is there, will it be triggered and to what agenda?
As an IRA Volunteer on a training camp over eight or nine years ago we were told about this guy. Big deal. The IRA have been only too aware of the sophistication of Brit surveillance techniques since the early 80’s e.g. trackers in the cleaning kit of AK’s, “burst” transmission bugs etc… We’re not fecking stupid and have known for a long time we couldn’t match the Brit technology so the way to beat it was to circumvent it. Army training has always been based on secrecy and ‘need to know’. Even in safe houses you always assume someone is listening in, so crucial details are written down and shown to the opposite number, landlines are disconnected, mains electricity is disconnected, batteries are taken out of mobile phones before attending meetings etc… They have all part of standard operating procedures for over twenty years, so the suggestion that someone is going to jump into a car after a meet and spill his guts is just laughable. It’s disappointing that this man was an informer but the history of Irish republicanism has been rife with informers – we expect them to be there and conduct ourselves accordingly.
Traitors galary 1 It appears times running out with long established decoys becoming transparent and camouflaged shelter scarce on the ground
ALL TRAITORS who have been collectively responsible for the disembowelment of the republican movement (ascending from their Rat holes deemed of no further use to brits).
Carried out discreetly over a prolonged period in order to avoid detection whilst continually offloading various army personnel who would have possibly become an obstacle to their next objective (another set piece hatched by brits)
Receiving their orders from Whitehall with the effect that MI5 = (Martin In 5tormont) has choreographed the last 20 years + of this life draining conflict.
It is inevitable we have more disclosures ahead and for the growing numbers of disaffected true republicans we are looking forward to them.
Looking forward in the context of exposure that the leadership of spin fein will have to pony up and finally start furnishing answers to the awkward questions.
With it becoming increasingly difficult to disguise the contempt Adams, mc guiness and co have displayed to brave republicans who have had the ordasity to question their decisions never mind their honesty or integrity.
I call them the brave as those who had previously ventured down the awkward question avenue came to very untimely ends.
Some paid with their lives Jim Linagh and Joey O Connor were but two of God knows how many more. (well God, MI5/martin, the 2 gerry`s and the list goes on)
Others had manufactured slander relentiously heaped upon them till eventual submission, most likely when the wider community accepted it as factual truth.
The leadership have always been afforded that luxury as should any query arise
from whatever quarter, the good old tried and tested rebuttal would spring into play
(U would need to speak to the RA about that, I can’t speak for them etc)
A good example of this war long tactic was the speed with which c murphy
MOUTH PIECE FOR MI5 / SF LEADERSHIP was able to conger up a fairly precise assumption of what had preceded Paul Quinn`s MURDER based on the information he had received from a contact within the army. Could he possibly have extracted this version of the spurious lead up to the MURDER from one of the murderous criminals whilst in real time still partaking in the courageous brave act / ORDER?
I sincerely hope Conger Murphy doesn’t get into trouble for not staying within the parties set piece rebuttals as opposed to his belting out a great big load of POO. Had To be his own idea. Bad move, trying to outdo M Mc G at his only self perfected media response.
Not such a walk in the park for martin these days in respect of media interviews due to the sheer number of complex issues at hand and the old faithful rebuttal practically redundant.
Just a matter of time before the sheep in spinn fein catch on to the misleading leaderships fabricated democracy.
Another interesting point, this week when Fisherman was interviewed on
Hearts and Minds in relation to what spinn fein had settled for in the Good Friday agreement and the dilution of commitment from himself as to when a united Ireland would be achievable. The point was that spinn fein have claimed negotiated gains to their voters when in actual fact this is sunning dale 2 and had this been accepted the first time round thousands of lives would have been saved.
Very accommodating of you martin when in contrast you believe by your actions to being ABOVE answering any question by the very people risking their lives as volunteers under your command for 3 decades.
These same people who sacrificed so much to further an aspiration which by all accounts the leadership had already secretly binned in favour of 30 pieces from a British paymaster.
Now clearly working to Britain’s agenda you accepted their plan to dismantle the same aspiration.
To most TRUE republicans who were part of the army and support structures to now find out the LOW LIFE depths you sank to, in order to serve your masters game.
Surely some one in the army council understood the definition of VOLUNTEER
As I understand it you must first be informed what you are volunteering for in order to make the crucial decision in the first place.
Faced with knowledge of the leaderships self serving interests volunteers would have dried up very quickly and you would have fallen short of government.
The leadership are guilty of DIRTY TREASON
How many lives have you and your dirty masters dispensed of in order to keep the dirty secrets hidden
How many whole families are going through life with the informer stigma on top of their loss of a loved one?
A but sure the vast majority of you wankers who now wear suits with the big salaries for administering BRITISH rule over us Irish haven’t ever got your hands dirty.
If only republicans in general had known how you let the last seven hunger strikers die for no need. We would not have been defeated by the brits and our dirty brit serving leadership.
I’ll end on a more confident note thinking of all the leadership getting whizzed off to safe houses in England.
“We would not have been defeated by the brits and our dirty brit serving leadership.”
Realst
Ah so it themmuns now. We wuz robbed!
Well sorry to disillusion you but you lost partly because the Brits were cleverer but mostly because the Irish people wised up and realised tha killing each other was a bad idea that destroyed any hope of unity.
So, sit back in your armchair, switch on an ethnically pure GAA match, pour yourself another pint and dream on.
PS is you day job working as Festy O’Semtex in the Phoenix?
Mick
I’m sorry. I know we shouldn’t normally play the man but I couldn’t resist it!
Great rant, Realst – and many nails hammered right on their shiny heads.
However, perhaps a little common sense might have informed you that the IRA fought for the right of the Irish people to decide their own destiny whereas PIRA were the complete opposite: their sectarian murder campaign completely ignored the will of the Irish people, showing such contempt for self-determination and democracy that they tried to overthrow the democratically elected government of the Republic of Ireland and establish a socialist regime against the will of the Irish people, randomly murdering their fellow countrymen as a means of advancing their own selfish, sectarian interests.
As James Taylor said of Herod, “A king who would slaughter the innocent will not cut a deal for you.” Meaning? Well, it means that people who are devoid of morals and principles should not be trusted. Trust them, and you’ll regret it. Perhaps a clue could be found in Bloody Friday or Jean McConville, for example? Still, if you chose to trust people who were capable of such atrocities (and ‘volunteered’ your services to such ends) then I don’t have any sympathy for you now.
Try a little common sense in life, kid. It works wonders.
“Finally fed up with the Dubliner’s STP, so took it out here.” – Kensei
Or perhaps you ‘finally’ snapped right after you read Perci’s post mentioning my imminent absence, feeling you could take a cowardly parting shot? I had you down as a man of higher quality.
“ahh dub and we thought you were the jewish-irish messiah come to set the captives free, and bring about our Zion. Bollocks t’ya
” – perci
I’ll always be on the side of the angels, Perci. The GFA doesn’t “set the captives free” – it merely extends captivity to 26 more counties. No Irish nationalist will support it – once they get past the propaganda that supports it and understand what the agenda actually is. My e-mail is where you’d expect to find it.
The Dubliner,
Off thread and I know it may all be nonsense. If you are leaving us is it permanent? I hope not. I actually find your attitude towards a united Ireland relatively more attractive than many others who try to persuade.
well there be or has there been the same outcry about the British secret service, leading, directing and controlling the UDA, UVF, RHC, LVF, etc, etc, etc…
has there been the same outcry over the plain fact that the British state led a campaign of murder and genocide against the Catholic population north and south….
lest we forget..
the Dublin and Monaghan bombs….
“My e-mail is where you’d expect to find it”
“We will never exchange the Blue sky of Ulster for the dull grey of Dublin.”
Do you prefer ‘cold’ to ‘dull’, Dubliner?
should have read…..
will there be..
Whenever a thread like this arises on slugger and another informer within the PRM is revealed, the thread descends into a bash the shinners tirade with the shinners themselves attempting desperately to move the thread off topic.
By doing this the British state always gets off scot free, which is a cop out and the more so as it is those who wish to see the back of it from Ireland who are mainly responsible.
If SF is top heavy with touts it is for SF to clean the stables, the fact they cut a deal with the DUP/brits not to do so, just shows that it is useless to keep going on about them doing so or stamping ones feet.
Mick F and Susan raise one of the most important questions, what is the British governments purpose in placing these touts into the public arena, as it always seems to be at a time of their choosing.
Could it be because they are well aware that republicans and nationalists fight like cats in a bag when-ever a tout in SF is revealed. Allowing the fact that what these touts actually got up to, and who was really responsible for their despicable behavior to slip below the public radar. The fact that there would be no touts without the British government presence is overlooked completely as too is the morality of touting.
A sidebar to this issue is an independent TJ@RC, for what we need here is for the UK state collusion in criminality to be brought fully into the public light. The very existence of our democracy demands it for if McShane was in the nutting squad with Scap, then it once again raises questions of the British governments guilt in crimes up to and including murder, for these touts must have forewarned their handlers that people were about to be killed yet it seems, bar special cases, their handlers/whoever did nothing and allowed these murders to take place.
There is talk in todays newspapers about Bradley and Eames having been shocked at the numbers of those who were working for the security services as touts or agents of influence, the question is will this make them slam the door shut and allow the British government to bolt and padlock it for all time, or will the duo demand that a TJ@RC is placed out of the reach of the British government and into internationally independent hands.
Adams says driver not under threat
Mr Adams said: ‘Certainly he is under no threat from republicans.
‘Whether he is under any threat from the people who have him is a question you will have to ask them. As far as Sinn Fein is concerned it is business as usual.’
Is Adams speaking on behalf of the PRM Army Council?
Mick H
Did SF not say it was the IRA who found this guy out and ‘placed him in the public arena’, rather than MI5?
I’m pretty sceptical about Eames & Bradley’s ‘shock’ – it’s hardly likely they were provided with statistics by British intel. It does sound like another of their kite-flying exercises though.
Gonzo
The IRA claim they have known about this guy for years, although they never felt any responsibility to place their information into the public arena, thus allowing McShane’s friends, neighbors, ect to live in ignorance with all the implications of that, for whilst he might not have had info on Adams and co any more, he may as a taxi driver still been of use to the spooks. As one sees which O’Callaghan these types never seem to retire fully. So much for the shinners community activism and building from the ground up.
As to the Bradley-Eames people, the recent information they had a look at was apparently from the Steven’s inquiry not M15.
“Whenever a thread like this arises on slugger and another informer within the PRM is revealed, the thread descends into a bash the shinners tirade with the shinners themselves attempting desperately to move the thread off topic.
By doing this the British state always gets off scot free, which is a cop out and the more so as it is those who wish to see the back of it from Ireland who are mainly responsible.”
I agree with most of the above, although in the wider arena I don’t know if it’s those who wish to see the back of the British government in Ireland who are the most responsible. Whenever the issue of loyalist agents and collusion come up, there are some media types and unionist spokespeople who instantly turn the argument into “well there was collusion with republican agents as well!” Somehow that is actually put forward as a defense of the security forces, as if everything is alright if murderous republican agents were given the same help as murderous loyalist agents. It’s particularly bizarre coming from those of a unionist background, seeing as how some of those victims of republican touts were soldiers and police officers. In those cases it’s strange to see praise for MI5 and the like for their “successes”; given the death and destruction that occurred over a three-decade period, I’d hate to see if the security forces weren’t as “successful” as they are now claiming to be.
How do unionists feel about the fact that so many of their loved ones were killed not by an independent republican paramilitary group but by people operating, knowingly or unknowingly, on “Her Majesty’s Secret Service”, which, by traditional unionist logic, makes their deaths justifiable?
Mick Hall,
“The fact that there would be no touts without the British government presence is overlooked completely as too is the morality of touting.”
How about the morality of the IRA murdering people? Had there been no terrorists the government would not have had to have informers would they? Your argument is completely circular because you ignore one basic issue: the basic premise which you miss being that the terrorists’ campaign was and remains morally wrong.
Hey Dubliner I’m gonna miss you around Slugger, feck if you’re not the most infuriating poster to us northern republicans! And I think we all love ya for it. Every time I see the letters ‘PSF’ in a post I scroll to the bottom, see your name and curse about what we’re in for! Im not sure if this breaks the man/ball rule but my only complaint with your STP as Ken puts it is that it was way too clever and logical to actually have much relevance in the real world! Its a fool looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart, as George Clooney said once. That goes double for an Irish heart and triple for a northern heart!
Look after yourself over there in Isreal hey, there’s men would cut ya for the shirt on your back.
As an IRA Volunteer on a training camp over eight or nine years ago we were told about this guy. Big deal. ….. Army training has always been based on secrecy and ‘need to know’.
Posted by Shergar on Feb 10, 2008 @ 02:55 AM
we all ‘need to know’ now, so, spill the beans. Was there a big long list of names read out?
)
Was Donaldson on it too?
… or was it the fact it was 2.55am and you had a few beers in you that all this top secret nonsense came out.
Mr Adams said (RTE) it seemed to him that elements in the British intelligence services did not realise that the war was over.
Its a scandal that a casual shrug of the shoulders is the height of protest, resistance and indignation from the leadership, they who have sworn to and been electorally mandated to (?) relentlessly challenge the British presence in Ireland.
This is the new jerusalem? This is the potent Irish republican neo-resistance in the 21st century to secure Irish national sovereignty?
This passive, impotent voice repackaged by the wholly embedded, recently gentrified British Sinn Fein as the new Irish revolutionary spirit leaves me full of bitter contempt and feeling like a ‘Burke: For evil to triumph …’
Fuiseog
iluvni,
On wonders if the “training camp” was actually a drinking session. It all sounds rather Walter Mitty esque.
Nevin,
The quote as I remember it was from a well painted mural on a gable wall in the Tiger Bay area:
We will not exchange the blue skies of freedom for the grey mists of an Irish republic.
“How about the morality of the IRA murdering people? Had there been no terrorists the government would not have had to have informers would they? Your argument is completely circular because you ignore one basic issue: the basic premise which you miss being that the terrorists’ campaign was and remains morally wrong.”
As we’ve seen many times before in various debates on this site, the whole argument between both sides is a form of circular argument and the famous what-aboutery. So one can argue, as many have, that there have been plenty of malignant effects of the continuing presence of British rule which led to the continuing paramilitary/terrorist tradition in Ireland.
No need to mock Shergar there, Turgon. The man is a dedicated soldier. He is also a trained astronaut having visited the moon 6 years ago and tomorrow he is off to climb Everest again without even bring his packed lunch.
Could be, Joe. Here’s a picture of the one in Dervock, north of Ballymoney.
Dubliner
Or perhaps you ‘finally’ snapped right after you read Perci’s post mentioning my imminent absence, feeling you could take a cowardly parting shot? I had you down as a man of higher quality.
No, I assumed it wasn’t permanent. And by the by, all the more reason to tackle you before you go
Dubliner – I’ll miss your rambling, contradictory, dialectical nonsense deeply!
Sok szerencsét kivánok!
Dewi
Almost identical, Nevin. Wonder if anyone here knows the origin.
Turgon
Can you not see the difference between those who were elected to pubic office under a democratic mandate engaging in criminality and an insurgent group doing the same. Surly one has sworn to uphold the law whilst the other the reverse. Or do you believe the end justifies the means and to hell with the damage done to individuals and society as a whole.
It seems to me if we are not going to be stuck in the type of “circular argument and the famous what-aboutery” the ‘doctor’ mentions in his/her post, a bench mark needs to be set beyond which future governments of the day will never again go.
There is a real danger when one takes into account Ireland’s history that this whole violent business will be repeated again at some time in the future. We have already reached the stage where some republicans are saying that the PIRAs failure to re-unite the nation was down to the ‘weakness’ of the Adams leadership; and on the other-side real arrogance is creeping back in.
Adams is right about one thing and it is that the completion of the national revolution must now be dealt with politically and within the law. However if the British state is not exposed as the law breaker it has been over the past thirty odd years, what argument can I put to a young republican when he tells me he believes in armed struggle, because the British state maintained partition by flouting and breaking the law and still does.
All I could reply is that armed struggle has been tried and failed and give my reasoning, and in all probability the young republican will tip me bollocks and go on his/her way thinking another sell out merchant. Just as those who formed the Provo’s did to Goulding and co when they reminded him that the Brits fight dirty then so must republicans.
If all the peace process means is that republicans accept the rule of law whilst the British break it when it suits then, we all better get used to the next round coming some time soon.
The way the British used informers in the north has been disgraceful, it fueled sectarianism and within republican ranks suspicion to such an extent it cannot but have lengthened the war. This all needs to be brought out into the open with a TJ@RC.
Best regards
How pathetic and wasteful would that be.
dubliner confirm email pls, otherwise its gone into your junk, or exclusive filters. Shalom
“The fact that there would be no touts without the British government presence is overlooked completely as too is the morality of touting.”
How quaint!! Should we not blame those socialists who put folks at each other’s throats back in the 60s in pursuit of their Cuban-style all-island utopia? A student of local history here would hardly have been surprised that street confrontation in Derry would have led to violence much as it did on other occasions when the constitutional question was asked. Where did the Young Socialist Alliance and Goulding learn their history? Did you, er, overlook the role played by the Irish establishment in the toppling of Goulding or are the Brits to blame for everything?
Wilde Rover: How do unionists feel about the fact that so many of their loved ones were killed not by an independent republican paramilitary group but by people operating, knowingly or unknowingly, on “Her Majesty’s Secret Service”, which, by traditional unionist logic, makes their deaths justifiable?
We knew all along that the security forces had agents and informers infiltrated into both loyalist and republican terrorist groups. When you all shared your grievances about the innocent – nationalist – victims of those agents, we told you it was a symmetrical situation for each community. You didn’t believe us. You are the ones who still have to adjust, not us.
“We knew all along that the security forces had agents and informers infiltrated into both loyalist and republican terrorist groups. When you all shared your grievances about the innocent – nationalist – victims of those agents, we told you it was a symmetrical situation for each community. You didn’t believe us. You are the ones who still have to adjust, not us.”
When was this exactly? And who is the “we”; unionists? Most unionist commentators I’ve read seem to have no problem accepting the idea of agents within both loyalist and republican groups, because it is seen as a sign of success for the security forces. When it comes to accepting that the security forces allowed said agents to commit murder and mayhem, it’s a whole different story attacked as republican propaganda. That’s why there aren’t many unionist politicians exactly breaking down Raymond McCord’s front door with offers of assistance.
If he British Security services did not have agents in SF/Ira and all other terrorist organisations I want my money back as a tax payer.
I expect them to spy and “bug” those whose avowed intent was to overthrow the State and carry out a campaign of murder and destruction.
Long live all agents and handlers.
Mick Hall,
I am on record as predicting that violence will recur; and I will suggest again that I suspect it will have done so within the next 20 years.
I am interested in this comment from yourself “However if the British state is not exposed as the law breaker it has been over the past thirty odd years, what argument can I put to a young republican when he tells me he believes in armed struggle, because the British state maintained partition by flouting and breaking the law and still does.”
My argument to any loyalist would be (and indeed has been on this web site) that violence was immoral, utterly wrong and that there was no cause on this island in the last fifty years which justified the killing of anyone. If you cannot echo such remarks I am afraid it says more about you than me.
The whole thing was wasteful and pathetic on that I will agree with you.
“I expect them to spy and “bug” those whose avowed intent was to overthrow the State and carry out a campaign of murder and destruction.
Long live all agents and handlers.”
The issue, once again, is not over bugging or have infomers recruited. The issue is some of these agents being free reign to commit murder and sestruction. Is that what you intended for your taxpayer money to go towards?
“My argument to any loyalist would be (and indeed has been on this web site) that violence was immoral, utterly wrong and that there was no cause on this island in the last fifty years which justified the killing of anyone. If you cannot echo such remarks I am afraid it says more about you than me.”
I’m sure that Mick Hall is capable of defending himself, but I’ll just point out that he did say elsewhere in his post that he would discourage any young republican from resorting to violence. The point I think he was trying to make was that convincing people of the effectiveness and even morality of working purely through a political and legal framework is undermined when the British government is one of the worst violators of the democratic ideals they claim to protect. Being told to play by the rules while the other side makes and breaks rules when it’s convenient is not necessarily a very appealing message.
Shergar,
The provos were running training camps in 2000???? that can,t be true because that would make Gerry a liar.
You disconnect the mains electricity at a “buster” why???? is it because Gerry kept you all in the dark for so long you just got used to it.
You wrote incriminating evidence on paper, my oh my how were you going to explain away the hoof marks to the judge???
You discussed the guy at a training camp as a tout, what complete and utter ballax, he was still organising security at that time and considered a trusted confidante, i think when you got whacked with that shotgun in Clare it really messed with your head.
Just one more thing Shergar before you try and take us for a ride again, at these training camps did you ever discuss who placed some of these people in the positions they were in here’s a few to get you started.
1) Freddy Scapp was selected for his position by The Bearded One while on the Army Council.
2) Dennis Donaldson was selected for his position by The Bearded One while president
3) Roy McShane was hand picked for his security position with internal security by The Bearded one
4) The informer who betrayed the Eksund was put aboard the ship (against the wishes of the Quarter Master General) by The Bearded One while a non voting member of the Army Council
5) Roy McShane was moved to private bodyguard and party designated driver in charge of all party transport by The Bearded one
6) The informer who was brought into the S/F think tank for the Stormont talks was invited in (against the wishes of many in the local party) by The Bearded One
7) All direct contacts with the meddling priest in contact with MI6 is done through The Bearded One
just in case you end up at a training camp next Saturday and have no one to do up the saddle
I wonder what The Devil’s point is….?
Yours, Bewildered of North West…
Before anyone gets carried away with Mr Satan’s suggestion..
It makes perfect sense, in the circumstances, for MI5 to seek to recruit, as informers, as many people as possible around the Provisional IRA leadership – to assess the veracity of what that leadership was telling the UK government if nothing else.
But that doesn’t mean any extrapolation of events is justified.
Although, it does call into question Adams’ judgement on whom he allowed close to him during that time..
It is well known Patrice that handlers surround their key agents with a number of other agents, when things go up in the air it is easier to sacrifice an agent in a lower position, that way they can keep their main man or woman in the key position.
Reader,
“When you all shared your grievances about the innocent – nationalist – victims of those agents, we told you it was a symmetrical situation for each community. You didn’t believe us. You are the ones who still have to adjust, not us.”
I cannot speak for “ourselves alone” only for myself alone, and I have attracted the ire of unionist posters here in the past for saying all military groupings in the conflict were basically the same group. i.e. British Crown Forces.
I agree it was a symmetrical situation for both communities: they were being sh1t upon from a height by your monarch and her clandestine machinations.
That’s as good a definition of being a subject of the crown as any, I suppose.
Ulsterfan,
“I expect them to spy and “bug” those whose avowed intent was to overthrow the State and carry out a campaign of murder and destruction.”
You expect the British Security Forces to carry out a campaign of murder and destruction? Then you are getting a lot of bang for your tax buck.
“Long live all agents and handlers.”
That sounds like another way of saying “up the RA.”
What would unionists do if they were to find out P. O’Neill was actually Seamus O’Bond, Licence to Kill?
Nothing, I suppose, for what can they do?
Let’s do that ‘who benefits?’ test again. Does it seem clear that the IRA and republicans have no vested interest in destroying their own credibility?
The much vaunted and very successful British trade in ‘counter-terrorism’ technology, advisers etc. has been made to look pretty stupid over more than 30 years by a bunch of volunteers, many of them casually recruited from the backwoods and the council estates. Naturally the Brits are going to try and rewrite history and claim a famous victory, we’re talking about one of their largest export industries after all.
As I’ve posted before the republican attitude right back to Collins has been that secrets should stay secret and that agents go to their graves uncompromised. We still don’t know the identities of many of his people in the Castle. The republicans had Intelligence coups at various times when they broke through in London and at home yet they still don’t reveal their sources. Those who should be frightened are the people who were used by the British security services and who are now being betrayed by British Intelligence still more occupied by empire building in England than what happens now that the last colonies are being let go.
Most importantly the Irish Peace Process didn’t come from just the physical force wing but was agreed on by nearly all of nationalist Ireland and its allies. Anyone up for claiming that Hume, Reynolds, Clinton and the rest were compromised or anybody’s agent? Why would such men particularly Clinton, have put their necks out to oblige a bunch of losers? They knew exactly what was going on behind the scenes and that they could trust the integrity of the republican leadership.
So maybe the IRA and MI5 were in cahoots all along, well according to some conspiracy theory websites. Maybe NI was an ideal training ground for troops. Maybe MI5 could be equated with something like the CIA and it’s seedy covert operations. Maybe people were just pawns, and casualities just numbers. Maybe Gerry and Martin are heads of MI5 as well.
Folk from this isle would do anything for the the Queen’s shilling, so history has shown us!
“They knew exactly what was going on behind the scenes and that they could trust the integrity of the republican leadership.”
In what sense are you using ‘integrity’, lib2016? Are you claiming that PRM AC decisions were unanimous? Are you suggesting that the AC didn’t front a fascist and Mafiaist organisation?
” Anyone up for claiming that Hume, Reynolds, Clinton and the rest were compromised or anybody’s agent? Why would such men particularly Clinton, have put their necks out to oblige a bunch of losers? They knew exactly what was going on behind the scenes and that they could trust the integrity of the republican leadership.”
Lib2016
You have lost me here, what are you saying, these touts played a progressive role? The gentlemen you mentioned put there money on Adams because he promised to produce an outcome which suited them all. i e an end of the PIRA insurgency with the status quo intact.
They new this because the informers that the British security services had surrounded the Adams leadership with told their handlers this and they passed the message on to Clinton, Reynolds etc.
You say previous generations of Republicans have always kept the names of Republicans who spied on the castle a secret, true, but the provos have gone a step further and kept the names secret of those who infiltrated the republican movement on behalf of the castle, which for a revbolutionary movement is somewhat unique.
As their first duty to the community or class they serve, when an informer is revealed, is to the whole community, who should be told about the tout so they can guard against them.
when will mcguiness and john bunter graham be told by their handlers that the cat has got out of the bag and make a run for it ??? maybe ladbrokes should open bets and i reckon bunter(uvf) and mcguiness(ira) are joint favourites!!
Wilde Rover: I agree it was a symmetrical situation for both communities: they were being sh1t upon from a height by your monarch and her clandestine machinations.
Before you can believe that, you need a motive, don’t you? – I think they were doing the best they could in a very difficult situation. You agree there were people *trying* to make things difficult for the security forces, don’t you.
Nor am I convinced that QE was one of the handlers, or the author of the Brit Cunning Plans.