“It is for the parties to decide when the time is right..”
With all the coverage of the New Year message from the Northern Ireland Secretary of State, Shaun Woodward, MP, it’s worth pointing to the one key line on devolving policing and justice powers to the Assembly – full statement here
“It is for the parties to decide when the time is right, but the Government will be ready to make the transfer of powers next May as envisaged in the St Andrews Agreement.” [added emphasis]
It is something he has said before.. and he’s also admitted that the target date might not be met. But the time will only be right when those parties stop pre-empting ongoing police investigations.. or interviews for that matter. [And is Alex Maskey still "thoroughly baffled"? - Ed] Adds And, on a related point, I had neglected to mention Strabane..
Turgon,
Happy new year to your goodself.
The ‘historical struggle’ analysis (shared by most non-unionists) of the Provo campaign contradicts the view that it was murderous and evil.
Do you view the 1920s IRA campaign as murderous and evil as well?
I personally think the 1920 was justified but the Provo campaign post Stormont was not. I view the morality of both wars/terrorists campaigns as more or less morally equivalent. That does not mean that I think the old IRA should have shot Protestants but neither do I think that the Provos were murderers.
Sammy
What is your definition of murder?
Please consult any dictionary and then repeat your remarks about the Provos not being responsible for murder.
Using similar logic I assume you do not consider UDA,UVF of having engaged in acts of murder.
There might have been a case, albeit very weak, for engaging British Forces.
Buy shooting policemen, prison warders, off-duty UDR members delivering the milk etc, and countless civilians blown to pieces, was unadulterated murder.
Thank you all for putting up with this long drawn out discussion. We seem to be getting somewhere .
1/Rude and abusive behaviour is wrong and when it happens then the person responsible (in this case me, but not only me) should expect to have that fact pointed out to them. If one can’t accept correction and debate then one shouldn’t hand it out.
2/Censoring each other’s honestly held opinions merely because one doesn’t approve of them is twaddle. Better men and women than us have been driven to breaking Godwell’s Law.
If one doesn’t have a logical practical point to make then maybe it’s better not to comment.
joeCanuck,
Not according to world opinion. Freedom fighters are celebrated around the world and the IRA have been accepted as comrades in arms by authorities like Mandela and the ANC.
You may not like it and I’m very ambivalent about it since I believe that the situation is much more complicated, but the fact is that Adams and McGuinness have been broadly vindicated.
lib 2016
“If one doesn’t have a logical practical point to make then maybe it’s better not to comment.”
Spectularly ironic.
I can’t speak to world opinion, lib2016, only for myself.
And I believe firmly in what I said.
Murder is murder.
Lib
what a very weak argument to quote Mandela as a supporter of the Struggle when greater world leaders such as Margaret Thatcher called them some thing else
It is absurd to compare the struggle of the black people of South Africa against oppression by a minority, with the situation in Northern Ireland.
The violence which led to the Treaty was justified, but once the duly constituted Dail voted to accept the treaty, justification for violence ended. Yes, a large percentage of the population of N.I. were abandoned to state discrimination but there was a political way forward, eventually, which was ably demonstrated by the successes of the civil rights movement, in which I played an exceedingly small part.
We, as a society, are not much different politically from where we were in 1972 or so.
There has been a huge change in the acceptance by “unionists” that there were a lot of rotten things in the body politic.
The violence of the IRA did not bring about that change, it delayed it by decades.
Turgon, Joe, Ulsterfan,
this is a well trodden path for those on both sides of the fence. The GFA/STA is a de facto recognition that the Provo campaign was not a murder campaign but part of a political struggle. The loyalist paramitaries are more difficult to evaluate being less coherrent ideologically and operationally as were the INLA.
But lets be honest here this is an ideological rather than a moral arguement – as you would harldy agree that the boy Churchill for example was a murderer for the firebombing and deliberate killing of civilians in Dresden.
Turgon,
and your point is?
Semantics, Sammy.
I agree that there was a political struggle but it was a struggle conducted largely, initially, through the tactic of murder and terror.
The armalite and the ballot box.
Joe,
the facts back me up – the guys who devised and ran the Provo campaign were put into government by the ruling power ( the Englezes ) and by the people on whose behalf they conducted their ‘war’ ( the Nationalists of non iron). Their behaviour ( with a few shocking exceptions ) since also bears out this analysis.
The arguement you put forward was lost by the UUP at the time of the GFA – that was why Jeffrey walked out. The ‘it was a murder campaign’ arguement was conceded in the new politcal arangements – you are simply trying to re-fight the GFA arguements all over again.
lib 2016,
You know full well what my point is. I doubt even in your fantsy world you regard many of your posts as logical or practical.
Your posts almost all centre around a position in which unionism is falling apart, unionist young people are all leaving, the rest of us are all old, the outside world hates us. Then some “good”, “unionists” like Mick Fealty are trying to move unionism forward. Some other “quite good” unionists like the DUP are moving towards a compromise which you know they know is a stepping stone to a united Ireland (as I said before a minority of zero position in the DUP, I suspect). Other “bad” unionists like me reject the whole thing. Other “bad” unionists like the UUP want something else; I haver never understood why they were “bad” in your world view, except maybe a bit of good old fashioned MOPE hatred going back to Stormount. But dear help anyone who dares remember any deaths in front of you; except of course those caused by loyalists or the army.
Then we usually get a bit of good MOPEry and a good cheerlead for the fact that republican terrorists were much better than loyalist ones and that their campaign was entirely understandable, inevitable, necessary and not wrong. Sometimes you have a good slur at Mr. Quinn if you are in the mood as well.
Your first paragraph in your first post on this thread is a pretty classic lib quote.
So yes it is ironic for you to suggest that those without pratical and logical points should refrain from making them. If you want to see how to make logical posts from a republican perspective there are lots of examples here. Unfortunately although I do not claim myself to be particularly clever or intellectual I do suspect you yourself are actually not clever enough to understand how poor, illogical, impractical, divisive and sectarian your comments are. Or maybe you do and you are just a more sophisticated troll.
You never did explain what use you had for our children either.
Well, we are at an impasse, Sammy.
I always try to look forward and there are certainly better times ahead.
Best wishes this new year.
Sammy
I think we will get some agreement if you accept that SF/PIRA have agreed that Westminster is the sovereign power in this part of the island of Ireland which is under British jurisdiction and further more they are administering British law in this small part of the United Kingdom regardless of the GFA.
The GFA was a sop to Republicans as a reward for a permanent cease fire and end to all hostilities followed by a surrender of their arms to a British sponsored commission.
They had to get some thing to hide their blushes otherwise their supporters might ask what was all that about when Britain did not leave , never gave an undertaking to do so or set a date all of which were SF/IRA demands.
When you think about it they got nothing of substance.
Joe,
Impasse it is – undoubtedly a re-visit will be not be far off.
Happy new year.
Ulsterfan,
clearly it is in some Unionists interest to downplay the GFA/STA and some Nationlaists interests to talk it up.
I personally view it as a hollowing out of the union under the guise of devolution and the granting of the ROI a role in the affairs of Non Iron via the requirement of Unionists to administer the province in many areas on an all Ireland basis. It seems much more Irish to me post agreement than than it did before.
Which ever view is taken I am sure we will agree it was a triumph of both Irish and British diplomacy.
I don’t think devolution weakened the Union. It is simply an alternative to Direct Rule which was not the preferred option of any of the parties.
The union is as strong today as prior to GFA.
It was always the case that any change in the constitutional basis of NI required approval of the people of NI .
SF gave up their claim to an all Ireland Consent thus pushing Unionists to the margins. No one else supported them and they were left on their own.
The North/South bodies are very insignificant but could sensibly be used for the benefit of all in both jurisdictions on matters of health ,law and order ,trade tourism etc.
A long period of stagnation may set in.
On more contentious issues Unionists will be able to drag their feet without any fear of sanction.
This will be the battle ground of the future.
On balance I agree British and Irish diplomacy won the day.
The Brits acting as guarantors for Unionists and the Irish will determine if there is to be a UI at all and at what pace thus pushing SF outside the tent.
IwSammy McNallywdi,
For the first time it made peaceful political progress, even normal democratic politics a likely future prospect. As such it was a win for both communities.
Turgon,
As far as I can find out the numbers of school leavers from each community are broadly equal at the moment. I simply don’t know what happens after that though if Gregory Campbell is to be believed Protestants are having a hard time.
I have been provocative but surely that could also be said of Pete’s thread header. If you play hardball it tends to get that reaction.
Given that the demographics on education and the future workforce are so important I don’t think that my emphasis on them is out of order. Certainly unionists seemed very pleased when nationalists got it wrong before the last census.
And as for your point about my harping on about the fact that Unionists stand alone and without friends? Well, I can’t change the reality of the situation. Unionists are alone and must find a way to deal with republicans. They have no alternative and constant whinging about how you don’t like it changes nothing.
The UUP is an empty shell and the DUP’s recent behaviour, however welcome it is, is also rather out of character. Surely those are fair points to make?
Try and refute the points I make rather than attack me for having the audacity to make them.
Happy New Year.
Okay lib let’s refute this one:
“I don’t accept any moral equivalence between organisations founded to defend the cause of liberty, equality and fraternity and those founded to defend inherited privilege.â€
Three words: Enniskillen, Kingsmills, Darkley.
This one:
“As far as I can find out the numbers of school leavers from each community are broadly equal at the moment.”
As far as I can find out: Not really good enough lib. If you had some evidence we could look at it. Also it tells us nothing about those at school or of preschool age. Of course lib there is always the possibility (impossibility in your view) that some Roman Catholics might actually be perfectly happy not to have a united Ireland but obviously that is just silly in lib-land. It is also interesting that you have brought the whole thing down to a sectarian head count. Maybe that tells us something about you. Though judging by your views on things like Martina’s little outburst I guess we already knew that parochial sectarian head counts are about your intellectual level.
This one:
“Unionists stand alone and without friends? ”
Well apart from a few parts of the USA (and Australia oh yes; before your mates murdered Stephen Melrose and Nicholas Spanos) so apart from the a few pockets in the USA most of the world does not really care that much about our problems either pro unionist or pro nationalist (oh yes there is Shawn/Sean in Canada). Try going to Africa, people do not really care, they have enough problems of their own (Gadaffi used to like you I admit but seems to have changed his mind of late). Asia, the same. South America. Oh of course your best mates the FARC. Europe well I guess ETA likes you (not forgetting Trowbridge though can anyone understand what he is on about apart from the lizard aliens?). Russia; no remember what they thought of Enniskillen. Maybe there is a big well informed pro-republican movement in Antarctica? Maybe other penguins dislike the Emperor ones and see them as like unionists during Stormont being big and lording it over the down trodden smaller penguins.
I guess you have stopped slurring Mr. Quinn which is at least some progress.
So there we go a few of your “points”.
And what do you feel our children are useful for or do you just want to deny making that comment?
Turgon,
This has gone on too long. In your case just sticking to the points I made on this thread would be a sign of recovery. Please talk to somebody, for your own sake.
Psychobabble returns lib, rather as I predicted it would.
For what it’s worth, Turgon, I see lib2016 trying to reach out to you and I think he has asked for forgiveness (although a bit cackhandedly).
He certainly has insulted you quite a bit.
It’s a new year.
Feel free to tell me to mind my own business.
joe
Joe,
I’m sadly coming to the conclusion that Turgon will never see a bright new dawn. He and his like are trapped in the colonial twilight forever. Their day is past.
Roll on the next generation.
lib 2016,
“Their day is past. Roll on the next generation.”
Since you are into the next generation: care to tell me what use you have for our children? Or do you fancy denying making that comment?
Ulsterfan,
the constitutional blurring that has taken place post GFA/STA has in my opinion definitely weakened the union – there is now an institutional link to the south that Unionists are obliged to administer. But I would say that wouldn’t I?
Re. Sinn Fein – if they dont get their act together (e.g in Quinn case) they will hopefully botted up the jacksie by the Nationalist/Republican electorate.
Lib2016.
What I would like to see is truth tribunal/commission where the public could ask the Provos to justify some of their appalling choices of target without them trotting out the lame mantra of “it was Brits what made us do it”.
Clearly other combatants should also be included but for me as a Nationalist/Republican I would like to know why stuff I completlely disapproved of was carried out as a part of the ‘National struggle’.
Sammy,
I wish you would change your name. I can’t be bothered typing out the whole thing and I feel a little bit silly calling you “Sammy” when you’re not. Or are you?
Turgon – please cool it – you are the funniest and friendliest poster on here. But we need to relate to all opinions. Myself I got absolutely mad with Concerned Loyalist and bitterly regret my observations to this day. It’s a new year, and a good one so let’s start again ?
joeCanuck,
in this computer age cutting and pasting is your only man for long names.
But in emergencies (ie world wars) and church holidays ‘Sammy’ will suffice.
And talking of funny days has anyone ever heard of “Nollaig na Mna” – a post xams day where the female of the species gets to on the pop and quare fellah has to do the housework? Clealry a potentially dangerous custom which luckily only holds sway in Cork and other such rare places.
Dewi,
Flattery will get you everywhere. Even with dour Ulster Prods.
You must remember Dewi one of the things I am about on this web site is demonstrating a hard line unionist position whilst trying to keep my personal bigotry to a minimum. I will not say I am not bigoted; I think there is some bigotry in all of us, there certainly is in me. However, I recognise it for what it is, namely a sin and try with the help of God to expunge it whenever it rears its ugly head.
I gave up politics in the late 1990s at least in part because I felt it had made me too nasty and sharp which I felt was wrong. I have said before that I stumbled upon this site by accident and post so much because of being away from home a lot.
You know that I regard the killing of people as awful. The idea of destroying a family, creating widows, widowers, orphans, childless parents is awful; but far, far worse in my view is the possibility of sending a soul into eternity before it might have had the opportunity to accept Christ.
As such on this site I attack the cheerleaders for terrorism pretty mercilessly. I abhor any position which gives any support to the criminal killers of either side. Incidentally I also have grave difficulties with anyone laughing at or celebrating the deaths of terrorists eg the hunger strikers. I can never feel happy that people died at Loughgall and the only SAS operations which really gave me pleasure are those like when the IRA sniper was captured when, I believe, the only injuries the terrorists suffered was one broken nose. Even then people spent wasted years in gaol for their foolish and immoral actions.
So I am sorry Dewi, I will not “cool it”. I will comfront, attack and annoy the cheerleaders whenever they raise their heads. In no way would I liken myself to my Saviour but I try to follow Him and He was not particularly backward in His attacks on the Pharisees “But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?” Matthew 3:7.
The republican leadership has already said that targeting innocent people was wrong and that they regret all the deaths.
Further inquiries might take us a little further but I doubt that we would get much useful information.
As we saw during the ‘Bloody Sunday’ inquiry the secrecy oaths of the IRA stop them from giving useful testimony and the British sources not only destroyed what evidence they had but were also extremely mendacious.
The best one could hope for is emotional relief for the dead or injured and their relations. I’ve been attacked here regularly for my lack of insight into their grief so maybe it would be better if I asked you. Would digging up the past do more good or harm?
PS I know a couple of lowlevel republican excombattants who are extremely repentent – mostly because they felt they had strayed from the ideals of Tone and Emmet. They still wouldn’t break their oaths of secrecy.
lib
If they would not break their oaths how could they be repentant?
Is killing in the name of Emmet or Tone acceptable but reprehensible in the name of Pearse and his successors in PIRA.
Lets repeat once again for all the world to hear “ALL KILLING IS WRONG”
Ulsterfan,
Of course I agree wholeheartedly – all killing is wrong.
On the subject of republican volunteers who may repent certain actions I know only that there seems to have been an incredible cameraderie amongst them. They regard me as much of an outsider as any unionist would. Maybe there is a lurker who could tell us more.
ulsterfan,
You of course expose the truth behind what passes for SF/IRA “repentance”. To you and indeed practically all normal people this definition of repentance is pretty appropriate.
For that genre of republicans they may regret the fact that people died. What they mean is that they regret the fact that they (the IRA) “had” to kill people. They regret the fact that unionists / Brits / whoever were so unreasonable and resistant to change etc. that the IRA had to torture and murder them.
If a nationalist points out that their regret and repentance are a sham and a lie then they can be denounced as having a political anti SF agenda. If a unionist rejects their “regret” etc. it shows that the unionists are flat earth bigots and shows why sadly the IRA “had” to kill people. And of course the implicit subtext is that if circumstances changed some republicans might “have” to go back to killing people. Such is the nature of the lies and spin with which SF presents us.
Looking at lib’s comment “Of course I agree wholeheartedly – all killing is wrong.” Yes it looks impressive but what is not being said is that some killing was sadly unfortunately and distressingly necessary. I need not provide any of the numerous citations which demonstrate that lib’s view of the wrongness of killing is entirely dependent on whether or not his mates were the ones who “had” to do it.
Of course the idea that there is a camaraderie amongst violent killers is hardly surprising. Peer group pressure is a good way to keep people who have done such things together and motivate them to do more such evil acts. I know it offends against Godwin’s law but the SS had a famous esprit de corps. Camaraderie amongst criminal thugs and murderers is not something to be lauded it is rather something to be held in contempt.
Lib.
I think it would be extremely benefical if there was a tribunal/commissioin that gave the IRA an opportunbity to explain for example their justification for their ‘legitimate targets’. This would not require individual members to provide information about their involvement – after all they were following orders, but rather offer Sinn Fein ( or IRA members) the chance to explain how targetting included off-duty or retired memebers of the security forces or exactly what was going on at Eniskillen. Simply issuing a blanket statement is not good enough in my view. This would undoubtedly clarify a number of aspects of the campaign and examine the influence (if any) of sectarianism. It should not just be a statement but give the relatives of Le Mon (or their legal representavites ) for example a chance to challenge the evidence that it was a ‘mistake’. This process would be both painful for Unionists who would have to listen to the IRA describing their actions in ‘military’ terms but also painful for Republicans who would have to answer the charges of their campaign being ‘sectarian, ‘murderous’ etc.
Of course Slugger provides a platform for this type of debate – and I suppose a web based medium that took ‘expert opinion’ and allowed submissions from the public might be a half way house to a full tribunal.
itSammywdi,
Can’t argue with any of that, though the years seem to be sliding past and there seems to be less and less chance of any such Tribunal happening.
One thing which have to happen before any such a Tribunal could begin is that ordinary police and soldiers would have to be given the same sort of legal protection as republicans.
Only if government forces were going to be subjected to the same sort of questioning would there be any possibility of republicans co-operating and to be truthful I still think they would prefer to remain silent.
There are, as shown all too often on this board, enough people trying to put their own words in other people’s mouths. Why give them the chance to whip up more hate?
Sammy
You are too ambitious and hoping for a lot to think that Slugger could act as a surrogate tribune of inquiry.
A good idea but can you see participants baring all for scrutiny and judgement?
Ulsterfan,
I have to confess to a mild technical interest in a ‘structured’ debate via the internet.
p.s. Williams would not appear to be the wisest of choices.
Lib.
The hate in my opinion lives on because things are NOT debated and ideas/misconceptions NOT challenged.
Perhaps Slugger could offer this as a topic – but not sure if this has already occurred?
Lib,
Just to acknowledge the kind thought behind this comment:
“Mick is a very intelligent unionist who saw the need for calm discussion long before most of us and who still manages to get it right most of the time.”
So long as we continue to use secret balloting rather than caucusing Iowa style, I prefer to keep my constitutional politics to myself.