“There is too much hypocrisy..”
A common thread in the coverage of the meeting last night in Crossmaglen of the Quinn Support Group, attended by MLAs, TDs and local councillors, is the focus on those querying a political motivation behind the campaign.. rather than focussing on the campaign’s stated aims of bringing the killers of Paul Quinn to justice – notably in the RTÉ report [RealPlayer audio file] and this BBC report [video(ish) file] in which the brother of Conor Murphy, the Northern Ireland Executive’s Regional Development minister, Declan Murphy features leading the questioning. Meanwhile the Irish government’s Minister for Foreign Affairs, Dermot Ahern, is to meet with Paul Quinn’s parents. But will he confirm that, as the DUP’s Jeffrey Donaldson relayed, the police assessment is that “IRA members [were] involved”? Or can he see anything..
Sadly, Pete, I believe that many of us are whistling in the dark while pissing into the wind.
What a shame.
And, BTW, kudos to the 300 or so people who had the moral courage to overcome some real fear and stand up for justice. I imagine many many others would love to overcome their fears too and come out publicly, but at least their hearts will be in the right place too.
Joe, it looks as if Declan Murphy and a few others were there on a spoiling mission.
How did any member of SF think turning up to do that in front of the media was a good idea?
My jaw dropped.
Though the chair of the meeting wasn’t much better with the RA did something to me in the 80s stuff.
has CONOR murphy went to a meeting yet concerning the death of a member of his constitutency?
i mean, a meeting other than with IRA.
An attendee told me there were over 400 at the Quinn meeting Thursday night.
Mark, you are exactly right. Conor Murphy and his family are presently the laughingstock of the local area and this clown shows up. Once again they revealed to all that they are not capable of grasping the moral issue. Murder is wrong, that is the issue and they are blind to that important law civilized society holds sacred. Adams made this a SF political issue in the early days, so it is laughable Declan Murphy tries to brand friends and neighbors of the Quinns as a political cabal when the only ones who are playing politics with the young man’s murder are SF.
This is a very important issue and is reported over here in some of the major media so it is good to look at Slugger and read your opinions.
My sister-in-law was brutally murdered a few years ago. It was a non-political murder. The PSNI carried out an excellent investigation, identified the perpetrator and brought him to trial. Justice was served and the brute responsible will probably spend the rest of his days in jail.
The Quinn family deserve no less.
If there is political interference in this case, I hope the politicians responsible rot in hell.
But, those that know me know that I am an athiest and don’t believe in hell. So, instead, I hope that the the rest of their nights on earth are spent in troubled nightmarish sleep. I wish I could believe in hell.
Turgon, if you’re out there, you are the most decent religious person I have met on Slugger, can you help me? Dont try to persuade me to forgive the perpetrators of this heinous act; I never can. But can you give me any reason why I should forgive the enablers of evil, who will allow those responsible to escape justice.
I am a regular contributor but am disguising my identity to protect the privacy of my extended family.
Turgon,
Many apologies. I withdraw my request. It was incredibly presumptious and totally unreasonable of me to put you on such a spot.
I don’t know what I was thinking. Perhaps I’ll blame the lateness of the hour and the demon drink, but I really have no excuse.
Regards as always.
We remember her,
forgiveness is not for the offending party it is for those offended against. While you continue to carry the anger and bitterness, the only person being hurt is you. When you forgive you are really letting go of the negative and destructive emotions generated by the murder. Don’t think of forgiveness as letting the perpetrator off the hook but of relieving yourself of a horrible burden that hurts only you and those around you.
Thank you for that thought, Siphonphore.
Republicans are employing the same tactics as against the McCartneys.
They first spend a bit of time quietly destroying the reputation of the deceased.
Then they wait with heads down until the initial outcry subsides a bit, and the heat goes out of the situation a little, before beginning to cast aspersions on those trying to help the family get justice.
They start sowing confusion and doubt by questioning the motivation of the support people, while all the time condeming the murder, calling for justice and publicly offering sympathy to the family.
In that way the bereaved are gradually painted as innocent dupes whose loss is being exploited for political ends, and SF are presented as the victims of a smear campaign.
When the family twigs on to what is happening and starts getting a little uppity they then become willing dupes poisoned by hatred, so eventually SF become the real victims of it all.
In this instance, SF can rely on the tacit support of the two Aherns, the DUP, the SoS, and the political establishment in general, who are all fearful of the implications of full disclosure. The deafening silence of the PSNI and the Garda gives the lie to policing being above political interference.
People know what they’re getting when they vote for them, but always think it will be somebody else who ends up on the wrong side of events.
political goals with no interest in what the family and the victim deserves. groundhog politics n.ireland style. the people who should be ashamed are the ones who voted in these politicians again and again?? the quinn family will realise thatjustice will only come by their own actions not by political promises. good luck
Spot-on, The Penguin. There is a pattern that is repeated too often for it to be random or haphazard or anything other than a cynical policy of damage control.
Fascism/Sinn Fein: dictatorial movement: any movement, ideology, or attitude that favors dictatorial government, centralized control of private enterprise, repression of all opposition, and extreme nationalism.
The disturbing haste at which Sinn Fein were on the airways to denounce anyone who suggested that Sinn Fein/IRA were involved in the murder of Paul Quinn was Fascism at it most distasteful.
Why was Conor Murphy not at the meeting himself? And how hypocritical of Sinn Fein to call the meeting political, Sinn Fein has for years been doing this same thing, making every issue they get involved in a political issue. If political parties whish to get involved in a campaign for justice that is a mater for that party, if Sinn Fein don’t like it then they can explain their position at the next election!!!
I would like to welcome Sinn Fein to what goes for democracy in Northern Ireland. The people have the right to speak out about a political party or paramilitary group who take a life, no mater who that political party or paramilitary group are.
For me, this whole situation only goes to prove one thing to the nationalist population who vote for Sinn Fein. That IRA and Sinn Fein are more important than you the people who support them. The IRA will murder you and Sinn Fein will deny you and your family’s any right to justice.
Just look at the contrast with the murder of Harry Holland and the murders of Robert McCartney and Paul Quinn. Sinn Fein jumps on the bandwagon and demand policing and justice for the Holland family. Yet the McCartney’s and the Quinn’s will have to fight that same political party for support in their campaign for the right for justice.
This is the very same Sinn Fein, the people in the areas where the McCartney’s and Quinn’s have lived have supported them for many years.
Who can nationalists blame for this situation? I feel no one but themselves; I think a little navel gazing must be in order for the nationalist population?
Do nationalists not realise that for the Fascist Sinn Fein to succeed they need several things?
They relay on the veiled spectre of visits in the night to keep people form speaking out (I suspect that there will be less people at the next meetings).
They must crush all campaigns and individuals who dare to question Sinn Fein/IRA for with in their communities, this is why they are involved in every aspect of community life.
They must discredit all campaigns for justice where Sinn Fein/IRA have been involved with the incident.
The most disturbing thing that the Fascists in Sinn Fein/IRA must achieve is the perpetuation of the perceived nationalist victimhood. What does this mean to the Sinn Fein voter; the more affluent you get the less likely you are to vote Sinn Fein. So Sinn Fein have a vested interest in keeping the nationalist population down, just as the Unionist parties did for years with the Unionist population.
Ourselves alone, is an opt description for Sinn Fein as they care for no one nationalist, Unionist or dissenter.
The Dubliner
Yes, and as long as people keep voting for them so it will remain.
Ranger1640 Ourselves alone, is an opt description for Sinn Fein as they care for no one nationalist, Unionist or dissenter.
Fekin right Fekin right Fek that polotics help the people bullshit its about the money the power fekem all fekem all. we will havit fekem all its ours isnt boys isnt boys pints of green diesal all round heh heh.Hang on no way fek yous boys it mine its all mine he he hah ha ha.
penguin, very succiently and aptly put, a very good condensed analysis.
Are Sinn Fein and their supporters not allowed to question certain aspects of this campaign. I support Sinn Fein but totally opposed to the brutal murder of Paul Quinn. I am also totally opposed to opponents of Sinn Fein using this murder to attempt to score cheap points against Sinn Fein. No one on this board has seemed to notice in the BBC report Dominic Bradley SDLP MLA during the meeting leaving his seat on the front row to pass a message to the chair. Justice For Paul Quinn without political interference. I am not from the area but reading the media viewing boards like this and elblogador leaves me just a tad suspicious of some peoples motives.
Ranger I think SF stalinist meself not fascist,
maybe that’s splitting hairs or stalinism/fascism two sides of the same coin.
well spotted penguin.
J Kelly, you seem you have a touch of Ostrich Syndrome going on!!!
Thank you reader.
And thanks to J Kelly, as well, for giving such a fine example of just what I was describing.
J Kelly, you also have that famed Sinn Fein/IRA victimhood thing going on there.
“I support Sinn Fein but totally opposed to the brutal murder of Paul Quinn.”
JK, those who support the PRM (political wing et al) and similar fascist/mafiaist organisations shouldn’t be surprised that there will be a continuing culture of lawlessness – and further victims.
No victimhood at all just reality. SF as a political party and their supporters have a right to defend their position and highlight when opponents use an awful murder to attack them. That said the SDLP and others have the right to highlight inconsistencies they perceive in Sinn Fein’s approach thats politics. Unfortunately a grieving family are caught in the middle. We can all remember the media coverage and “support” the family of Robert McCartney got before the elections in 2005, not much since. Its in this context that republicans are suspicious of the motives of some of those involved in this campaign.
The chair of the meeting let the cat out of the bag the IRA took over his home in 1986. I’m sure it wasn’t a good experience for him or his family but if thats his motives for involvement in this campaign is it any wonder republicans become suspicious. The family of Paul Quinn deserve all our support and the Garda and if necessary the PSNI should do all they can to bring justice to this family.
I think sinn fein are near finished the hypocrisy
of j kelly et all is wearing very very thin we all know ira men done it we all know murphy is a liar and we all know that the ira not only know who done but have the power to get them to turn themselves in to the law. So balls to sinn fein and i say that as a nationalist.Come on up Bertie we can spare a few quid here and there but lives are precious.
“No victimhood at all just reality.”
Apart from the likes of Paul Quinn, JK. Sadly, IMO there will be many more Paul Quinns, especially in areas where the governments have essentially devolved ‘justice’ to the loyalist and republican paramilitary godfathers. The remits of the PSNI and Garda SÃochána have been politically ‘constrained’ as part of the ‘price of peace’.
I was at the meeting in Crossmaglen on Thursday night.
A short time into the meeting, a Sinn Fein councillor from Newry and Mourne got up to unequivocally condemn the murder, to say that the perpetrators needed to be brought to justice, and also said in clear and direct terms that anyone with information should go either to the Garda or the PSNI. He said that he’d supported a motion in N&M;council to send a letter expressing this to the family. Some people in the room were angry that Sinn Fein appeared to take their time before coming out to say that; and that they had been busy dealing with other domestic matters in the area.
However, there was a squad there, led by Declan Murphy it seems (who got the ball rolling; once he stood up, three other individuals scattered around the room and stood up to speak as well), who went into a long diatribe about how he’d been attacked in the past, and no politicians or other people had stepped in to help him. He accused the committee of using the murder to attack Sinn Fein.
I was pretty disgusted by SF’s behaviour, or at least the behaviour of certain members or supporters, and they have gone down in my estimation as a result of what I saw. The elected representatives were saying the right things, but the unelected hardmen were concentrating on trying to discredit the committee. The whole incident was visibly distressing to Paul Quinn’s parents. At the end the meeting degenerated into a shouting match and had to be stopped.
The trouble with SF seems to be that they can’t resist defending themselves and counterattacking incoming accusations against them, even when they know they were wrong. It seems there is a faction who want to do the right thing, and another faction who want to defend the record and behaviour of the IRA even when it is wrong. The statements made by the elected Sinn Fein councillors contrasted markedly with the cavalier attitude to the whole matter which has been shown by Conor Murphy.
JK said “We can all remember the media coverage and “support†the family of Robert McCartney got before the elections in 2005, not much since. Its in this context that republicans are suspicious of the motives of some of those involved in this campaignâ€.
Are you seriously suggesting JK that the media had an anti Sinn Fein pro SDLP or Unionist agenda at the last election?
You really do have that Sinn Fein Victimhood and Ostrich Syndrome bad.
Sinn Fein was never off the media telling us how they had expelled members of Sinn Fein who were involved in the murder of Robert McCartney. Sinn Fein invited the sisters of Robert McCartney to their party conference and manipulated the media over the whole event!!!
In fact the night of the murder of Robert McCartney, Alex Maskey was on the media doing the usual smoke and mirrors trick blaming everyone but the proper suspects, he even accused the PSNI of staring up trouble in the area.
JK I don’t know where you live but if you get a chance drive around the Markets and read the writing on the wall. It spells it out better than we ever can on here!!!
Now JK who is kidding who?
Rangers I live in Derry and the writing on the walls would have you believe that Sinn Fein has no support but the reality is somewhat different. In South Belfast many predicted that Alex Maskey would lose his seat no such thing. Its easy to write grafitti. Votes at elections tell who is supported as just this week in the Glens only a council by election but still the Sinn Fein vote is solid.
I wasn’t at the meeting in cross but from what I’ve seen and read people like Declan Murphy were there defending Sinn Fein as a political party and exposing the opportunism of others. The usual nonsense if someone agrees with the likes of comrade stalin they are brave residents but if they offer a opposing view they are a “squad” or “hardmen”. Keep the focus of this campaign on what matters Justice for the Quinn Family and everyone can support it but when we have Dominic Bradley calling Connor Murphy’s integrity and the ministerial code into the matter then people question his motives.
If a public meeting was called on any issue and a Sinn Fein MLA sitting in the front row was seen to be passing notes to the independent chair I’m sure many on this board would have questions to ask.
“SF as a political party and their supporters have a right to defend their position and highlight when opponents use an awful murder to attack them.”
SF PIRA are/ were also a revolutionary movement who used threat murder and lies to further their goals. They feel they are justified in this, due to their claimed predecessors getting a majority of members, but not of votes, in an election early in the last century. They also saw their methods as necessary in the face of a larger and better armed and resourced ‘oppressor’.
Victims are thus murdered, brutalised, and smeared, but might draw comfort that militant irish separatists do not view this as personal. It is what american generals might term ‘collateral damage’. Marxists could call it dialectics. Mothers might call it murder assault and deliberate lies.
Trouble is that the irish people, in their acts of self-determination in that last century, served a ‘cease and desist’ order on PIRA.
PIRA seem a little hard of hearing.
Lets hope PSNI and Garda Siochana’s silence indicates there may still be prosecutions for these crimes against humanity.
We live in a democracy, we have rights, we don’t have to be silent about anything.
“people like Declan Murphy were there defending Sinn Fein as a political party and exposing the opportunism of others”
JK, why are you ‘defending’ paramilitary fascism?
Enough already.
The Quinn family deserve Justice for their brutally murdered son.
Stop it.
well said joe and from here on its my last word
“The Quinn family deserve Justice for their brutally murdered son.”
Sadly, Joe, justice is unlikely to be on offer.
“…the only person it hurts
you….when you forgive you are really letting go….relieving yourself of a horrible burden’
‘We will remember them’:
I imagine that the kind of sentiment in the quotes above constitute the kind of shite you could do without.
For what its worth, I think that what is more likely to be of help is acknowledgement of the right to “forgive” or justifiably not to forgive. Surely this is empowerment, not pressure to “forgive”.
I have found that ‘religious’ people tend to pressurise individuals to forgive rather than recognise the the notion of justifiable anger ie its OK to feel agrieved, particularly when offended by perpetrators who justify their actions in the name of political objectives.
As this post illustrates, the Quinn murder brings into focus a lot of unfinished business.
I wasn’t at the meeting in cross but from what I’ve seen and read people like Declan Murphy were there defending Sinn Fein as a political party and exposing the opportunism of others.
Is it right to do that at a meeting concerned with trying to bring a group of sadistic murderers to justice ? I can tell you that nobody who spoke at that meeting criticized Sinn Fein’s policies or any of their political strategies. The politicians who spoke from the SDLP, Labour, Fianna Fail and Fine Gael spoke to pledge their support to the family; they did not mention Sinn Fein or the IRA, nor did they contribute any opinions about who was behind the murder.
What people did speak up to criticize was Sinn Fein’s behaviour. People are extremely angry at the efforts by Sinn Fein leaders and elected representatives to portray Paul Quinn as a criminal. He wasn’t. Why would Sinn Fein consciously and deliberately spread and encourage rumours which were not true ?
Let’s be clear about what Declan Murphy and his contemporaries were there to do. They used classic whataboutery to try to discredit the committee, and to disrupt and damage the meeting. Why they are afraid of an organization which has made no public statements beyond those expressing the need for truth to bring to justice those who murdered Paul Quinn, is an exercise for the reader at home. If the IRA are unhappy about being criticized in public, maybe they should stop beating people to death.
Another point that was made during the meeting is that calls for the IRA army council to disband are missing the point. The army council sets policy and issues directives. It does not authorize or control what happens at a local level. Disbanding it will not make any difference in terms of what is going on in South Armagh.
I think it was pretty obvious that the SDLP were stirring things up at this meeting. Nothing wrong with that… thats politics, .. but come out and say so. Not only was dominic bradley passing messages to the chair, the SDLP senior press people were handling the media, and they organised for others to be at the meeting, like the mccartney sisters, who they had previously sponsored with a “donation” of flights and accomodation for their trips to Washington. The SDLP are using this family for their own purposes.
as the good book says “an eye for an eye”. forget political promises, investigations and cowardly forgiveness if someone wants justice for a murdered loved one then there is only one way.
I am busy doing all those Christmas things which I loathe and Elenwe insists are absolutely essential like buying small pointless gifts for cousins etc. (the curse of marrying into a vast Fermanagh family).
There are interesting issues on this thread which time allowing I may comment on later. However, I was asked earlier about forgiveness. I see the “We remember her” withdrew the request but it is an extremely valid question to ask of one who claims to be a Christian and as such merits an attempt at a response.
At the start “We remember her” I am truly sorry at your trouble.
I have never suffered anything like this and as such any answer I give is going to be trite and inappropriate.
Siphonophore’s comments seem very reasonable.
I agree that forgiveness is something which can help the aggrieved party. However, it is clearly not as simple or as easy as that.
It is important to differentiate between forgiveness and punishment / justice. Whatever about any person forgiving the perpetrator or facilitator, excuser etc. of a crime against themselves or their friends / family, it is still necessary to have the perpetrator and anyone else criminally involved punished. That is necessary as a deterrent to further crime and to protect society. As such one can forgive a criminal and still demand they are punished. There is no moral, logical, religious or ethical disconnect.
Next is the issue of forgiveness itself. Some would argue that one can forgive those who have hurt you as Gordon Wilson so memorably did.
Other Christians (and non-Christians) whom I greatly respect suggest that the one who has hurt you in any way must ask for forgiveness and demonstrate some degree of repentance (i.e. turning away from their previous actions) before forgiving them is appropriate. Since I have never experienced such a thing I cannot really advise.
Next suppose hypothetically your were a Christian and came to me and said you feared you were unable to forgive. I would suggest that in that case God would in his own time enable you to forgive (if that was appropriate). Remember (and it is so easy for me to say) that forgiveness could be said to be a process, and as such it is a process which takes people a varying length of time. For a Christian I would suggest that God will give them the ability to forgive but it may be over a long time (if and as I say if it is appropriate to forgive in a given instance). To a non-Christian I would suggest that it may take years to reach the end of a process of forgiveness; just as it may a Christian.
It is not for anyone else to judge your inability to forgive and I do not ask you to do it.
The only person I can point to whom I know quite well who has a similar story is a cousin of my wife whose fiancée was murdered by the IRA.
She is the most holy and godly woman I know. I do not know to what extent she has forgiven those who hurt her (it is not a question I am so impertinent as to ask) but I am sure it took a long time.
There; no answers. Sorry to take so long to get back. I saw the post this morning and spend a lot of the day thinking about it. This is not the answer of a theologian nor a great thinker, nor actually a good Christian but it is the best I can do.
Incidentally I showed the post to my wife who has a fair bit of theological training and she agreed with it.
God bless (and I mean that in a nice way) sorry if it offends an atheist.
Regards
Thank you so much for those very insightful thoughts, Turgon.
They do help me understand where I’m at.
And, no, I am not in the least offended by you saying “God Bless”. That’s who you are and I do appreciate it.
Again, many thanks and sorry for imposing on you.
I think it was pretty obvious that the SDLP were stirring things up at this meeting. Nothing wrong with that… thats politics, .. but come out and say so.
They didn’t try to hide.
Not only was dominic bradley passing messages to the chair, the SDLP senior press people were handling the media, and they organised for others to be at the meeting, like the mccartney sisters, who they had previously sponsored with a “donation†of flights and accomodation for their trips to Washington. The SDLP are using this family for their own purposes.
Or, alternatively, they are supporting victims of violence in their community – something which Sinn Fein won’t do. Couldn’t Sinn Fein be there, supporting the campaign’s efforts to reach the media, in the same way that (for example) they do with the Pat Finucane Centre ?
There is nothing offensive about saying “God bless”. If someone tells you it offends them, you know you’re dealing with an idiot.
We got a lot of crap here from the usual suspects. It is actually normal at meetings to pass notes to the chair to draw their attention to something without interrupting the flow. Also, according to what one TD and several councillors said, they were there at the invitation of Dominic Bradley, not the committee. But hey, picking holes in details is clearly more important to j kelly than murder. The simple fact is that Sinn Fein tried to hijack the meeting bussing in heavies and enforcers from Dromintee and elsewhere. They came for a row and met 400 people who were taking no more shit. There was almost certainly at least one of the murderers there in the Provo heavy gang and two members of Battalion Command staff which gave the go-ahead. Interesting thing is that not one of the Provo speakers called Paul Quinn a criminal, and not one of them tried to say the Provos didn’t do it. Game is up lads.
Or, alternatively, they are supporting victims of violence in their community – something which Sinn Fein won’t do. Couldn’t Sinn Fein be there, supporting the campaign’s efforts to reach the media, in the same way that (for example) they do with the Pat Finucane Centre ?
No Comrade the couldnt. if the did such a thing the would be accused of everthing from the rankest hpocracy to admitting to crimes the aren’t guilty of. SF is between a rock and a hard place and from what I see the have taken the onl course open to them, defending themselves with out getting involved in the politics of victimhood
it seems some people are either unaware or won’t admit to the basic fact that….anytime anything awful happens which in anyway invloves or can be linked to Sinn Fein there is an inordinate amount of airtime and media coverage of it, compared to other unsavoury and horrible events. I wonder why that is? I also wonder why those of us willing to point it out are shouted down?
I wish the detractors and defenders of SF would desist.
The simple fact is that there is a gang of vicious murderers on the loose in part of S.Armagh.
We don’t know for certain what their affiliations are and it doesn’t matter a hoot as far as I’m concerned.
They just need to be brought to justice so that people can walk freely about their communities.
The average unionist will delight at any discomfort of SF and will be appalled at any ruthless murder occurring within NI.
However does anyone ever point out the elephant in the room that probably many of the people in that room delighted in the infamy of South Armagh’s “bandit country” mantle and supported, for example, their sniper ability ?
Or what about the fact that so many bombs that wrecked, killed and maimed were assembled in their midst ?
If you take the hand of the devil he will dance you into hell
Many in South Armagh are only reaping what they sowed with gangster republicanism. They didnt support the legally constituted forces of law and order for 30 years so what do they expect ?
‘legally constituted forces of law and order for 30 years’
would those be the same forces that were basically an extensuion of unionism and were riddled with members who double jobbed as members of notorious death squads. indeed it may be fair to say they were only moonlighting as members of said ‘security’ forces.
So Dominic Bradley left his seat and passed a note to the chair!! That’s a problem? Maybe he wanted to speak. Maybe he wanted to say a certain person had arrived, maybe he wanted to point something out to the chairperson. The committe isn’t a dictatorship. Fair play to the SDLP if they helped with the media. Why aren’t S.F. helping? The family asked for ALL parties to support their group and most seem to be helping.
john,
at one point the republicans of south armagh were republicans. and followed a war with courage, discipline and cleverness.
however the rabble that beat quinn, do not represent that fine tradition.
those people are not republican at all.