“There is too much hypocrisy..”
A common thread in the coverage of the meeting last night in Crossmaglen of the Quinn Support Group, attended by MLAs, TDs and local councillors, is the focus on those querying a political motivation behind the campaign.. rather than focussing on the campaign’s stated aims of bringing the killers of Paul Quinn to justice – notably in the RTÉ report [RealPlayer audio file] and this BBC report [video(ish) file] in which the brother of Conor Murphy, the Northern Ireland Executive’s Regional Development minister, Declan Murphy features leading the questioning. Meanwhile the Irish government’s Minister for Foreign Affairs, Dermot Ahern, is to meet with Paul Quinn’s parents. But will he confirm that, as the DUP’s Jeffrey Donaldson relayed, the police assessment is that “IRA members [were] involved”? Or can he see anything..
Well said, Harry.
republican stones
“would those be the same forces that were basically an extensuion of unionism and were riddled with members who double jobbed as members of notorious death squads.”
believe what you want but all I will say is that it is largely the same laws, personnel and processes that you are supporting now
Therefore if it is ok now then what was your problem before ?
Harry
“at one point the republicans of south armagh were republicans. and followed a war with courage, discipline and cleverness.
however the rabble that beat quinn, do not represent that fine tradition.
those people are not republican at all.”
Harry once again it is the same laws, personnel and processes.
It is all pretty clear to me
The beast that murdered Paul Quinn in the most appalling and wicked way was nurtured and bred within South Armagh and now that beast has taken control.
I sympathise but when I read the title of this thread I thought I was going to read about the hypocrisy of the South Armagh residents.
Instead I get all this hand wringing and anguish.
If nationalism really wants to obliterate PIRA and it smell then detsroy SF at elections like the 26 counties did – it is your choice.
Just as unionists have done to PUP, UDP et al – there never will be or has been a place for them
john,
i wouldnt agree that it is entirely the same personnel.
and believe me john, i would have no problem if provisional sf votes did go down.
and i think it probably will.
all I will say is that it is largely the same laws, personnel and processes that you are supporting now – john east bilfawst
right so the RUC still roam the streets, the UDR are still manning checkpoints, the home service RIR are still on the go, the UDA are pre-1992 (sans proscription), internment is ongoing, and diplocks aren’t being phased out. holy cow batman, we’ve just gone back in time.
RepublicanStones
Well the RUC name has been changed and the RIR are now in Afghanistan and Iraq because PIRA surrendered and disarmed – do you think there is some other reason ?
You are very gullible
Red Diesel:
Interesting thing is that not one of the Provo speakers called Paul Quinn a criminal, and not one of them tried to say the Provos didn’t do it. Game is up lads.
Actually, one of the last to speak (a lady at the very back) attempted to suggest that the IRA were not behind it, and she used a personal experience of her own to suggest there was a precedent for this. What I thought was notable was that many in the audience did not clap, or respond, to the Sinn Fein comments; they sat there in silence after the SF or IRA guys spoke.
Steve:
No Comrade the couldnt. if the did such a thing the would be accused of everthing from the rankest hpocracy to admitting to crimes the aren’t guilty of. SF is between a rock and a hard place and from what I see the have taken the onl course open to them, defending themselves with out getting involved in the politics of victimhood
The only reason they’re in this position is because they know who did this, and they don’t like it being talked about. Why don’t they just come clean, and expel the individuals from the organization ?
that old Sinn Fein/IRA victimhood and Ostrich Syndrome is spreading!!!
I despair for the good people in nationalist areas.
what do you mean by “good” people in nationalist areas??
i dont support this rabble.
As with every community there are the good the bad and the dammed ugly.
There are good people who all they want to do is work and rise their children. Yet these dinosaurs form yesterday still want to skulk around in the shadows with a para political grouping acting a cover.
Until the people of nationalist area wake up and smell the green diesel and get rid of Sinn Fein/IRA then they can blame none but themselves for the situation they find themselves in.
Can I ask if there is so much diesel laundering going on in South Armagh and the residue for this process is being dumped around this area, will the children of this area not be showing the signs of the carcinogenic residue being dumped there some day soon. Who will they blame for that the DRD for not cleaning up after the diesel residue dumpers?
Well the RUC name has been changed and the RIR are now in Afghanistan and Iraq because PIRA surrendered and disarmed – do you think there is some other reason ? – john east bilfawst
so there was no mass exodus of ruc personnel with early retirements etc, home service rir goodbye ! and the PIRA decommissioned arms to an independent international comission. it would be surrender if they handed their arms over to a brit army quartermaster, but afraid that didn’t happen. you know the saying quid pro quo? obviously not. nice of you to highlight the british army in another unwanted occupation(Iraq)
Clearly complete credibility gap between SF position and reality on the ground – good on the SDLP for helping to fill that gap. SF whingeing about this is ridiculous. Many Nationalists/Republicans see the IRA’s role in previous 30 years as providing the necessary encourgaement to the British to cut a proper deal. That work is done now. Contrary to what some unionists may think the IRA are now a liability to SF but what is not clear is whether the IRA are now going to go away. Clearly south Armagh is not following orders – SF have to bite the bullet ( metaphorically ) and publically distinance themselves from those no longer working in the Republican/Nationalist interest.
rangers
you really dont realise how lucky you are as unionist to have the adams faction of the republican movement to be in the ascendancy right now.
you should count you chickens as they say.
most sfers accept that the constitutional question over ni has been “parked”
so you should suck up the quinn murder as the price of having provisional movement not pushing for a united ireland.
the good nationalist people of south armagh have voted for an mp who lies for the pnm’s internal clean up squad.
enforces british (new labour policies) on water charges.
and who is sucked in on an inflated sense of his own importance as a minister of the crown.
so rangers, you have very little to be complaining about
RepublicanStones
“so there was no mass exodus of ruc personnel with early retirements etc”
No there wasnt actually because you had to be a certain age to qualify and the RUC was never the Home Guard.
Infact all my old school friends who joined in he early 80s are still in it – infact I dont no anyone under the current age of 50 who has left
“home service rir goodbye”
Once again I know former colonels, majors, sergeants and everyone of them considers it “job done” as PIRA had surrendered
The only argument they had for the retention of the Home Service battalion was that NI was going to have a permanent 5000 British Army presence and it may as well have been home grown. On the other hand they also recognised that the British Army was the most professional on the planet and that probably wasnt conducive on the global scale to the Home Service concept.
“and the PIRA decommissioned arms to an independent international comission. it would be surrender if they handed their arms over to a brit army quartermaster, but afraid that didn’t happen”
Are you auditioning for thick paddy of the year award or something ?
The Provos gave up.
Actually secretly destroying your weapons in front of a Catholic Priest and a Methodist Minister is lacking in all dignity and destroys any remaining credibility that they were a legitimate physical force movement.
Actually they would have been better to try and forge some kind of lowering of flags deal with the British and do a dignified military surrender – if one had been available to them.
It wasnt of course because they were a mixture of psychos, fanatics and criminals which South Armagh is reaping the tail wind off.
On the other hand they also recognised that the British Army was the most professional on the planet and that probably wasnt conducive on the global scale to the Home Service concept.
john
i was wondering if this was example of the professionalism within the Brit army???
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4184279.stm
whereas,
i would consider this to be fine example of the professionalism of the Republican forces in this Area.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19970213/ai_n14093406
so john you claim victory for the british army when they haven’t claimed it themselves? nice one. i thought they were on record as saying they couldn’t defeat the IRA by military means. and is your personal circle of freinds to be taken as an example of the implementation or otherwise of governement policy???? its generally accepted by most sane academics that in the aftermath of 9/11 political violence wasn’t the way to go about your business, that was the single biggest reason for the conclusion of decomissioning. unless you think the british army were responsible for 9/11 and so by extension…..
It appears some spin fein sheep are taking up active service with the operation consisting of lip service for a group of cowards.
Conor (Crumbler) murphy was quick enough to direct the original slur against young Quinn.
On doing so you would have expected any MAN to attend possible follow up debates on same, in order to either claim, his statement was taken out of context, he had been initially misinformed or maybe be as brave as when first reporting to the media, stand by, explain or debate his original statement.
Not so easy when attending such a gathering that HAS DISPERCED WITH THE FEAR FACTOR normally in attendance.
As for people participating in public meetings having affiliation to political parties, should be welcomed by all Democrats. is it not good to talk.
Childish jibes from the sheep of, who’s driving what agenda proves a total lack of substance or truth in any rebuttal they should choose to deploy. Did Adams accompany the Mc Cartney sisters to the rigged ardhes for the fun of it.
I for one would not believe it was in any way for the self seeking states man publicity.
Whilst on the subject of his original reliable source supplying a solid conformation to no ira involvement, perhaps he would be decent enough to meet same source and obtain conformation as to why stake knife held his position within the army structure for in excess of 20 years in total contradiction to standing army orders. This question has been eluded when asked of senior spin fein/ra members to the extreme of several replying, there was no channels in existence to extract answers to this as with many other outstanding issues destined to remain on the books. (if the ira leadership has stood down we can only assume Murphy is an even bigger liar) The leadership has been in contempt of true republican values having arrogantly mistreated those whom have given their most for the movement as they now treat the Quinn family.
Surely they know these same brave people who would never lay down to the might of all britain could throw at them, will allow themselves and their views to be dismissed as irrelevant by an authority guilty of long term deceit to the cause and all before.
Failure of a reply on many outstanding issues can only lead all concerned to conclude the ever growing suspicion that perhaps Martin Ingrim was and is not working to a british approved agenda.
Surely anyone from the leadership past or present would not want to be labelled to a legacy of stripping the peoples army of its assets for any reason other than an honourable one.Still waiting.
nice to see that Stones is finaly admitting that the Ra were nothing more than terrorist murderers – suprised to see you compare them to Al Qaeda. Perhaps one could say that weee Marty has martyred himself.
But yes, I take your point, post 9/11 there was no room in the UK for a terrorist organisations saturated with informants.
Can we please drop this off topic “were the IRA right” or “were the army right” stuff please. This is a thread about the committee seeking justice for the murderers of Paul Quinn.
realst,
I was talking to some people at the Crossmaglen meeting after it was over. One individual (who described himself as a republican who supports Sinn Fein) told me of a time when the IRA took over his house, basically held his family under house arrest, put a gun to his head, spoke roughly to his wife. They were wearing balaclavas but he knew who they were, they were guys who lived on the same street. Afterwards, he went to try to speak to the IRA to find out why this had happened. They stonewalled him and told him they knew nothing about it, and that they weren’t involved.
It’s worth bearing this in mind. Whenever the IRA are confronted with unfavourable accusations against them, no matter what the evidence is, their response will be to deny it and try to discredit the accuser. The propaganda machinery and insurgency tactics that were used against the British are now being used full-tilt against ordinary people within the republican support base.
First we have this character Murphy done by for 2.5 million on top of what was found in his house, now a smear campaign against the late Paul Quinn is backfiring.
All this from super-provo stronghold South Armagh.
More provo leadership inspired goof ups will result in the devolution of policing powers being implemented at a time and in circumstances that unionists are comfortable with not SF.
Their good result in the North Antrim by-election is going to do more long term harm than good as it’s augmenting a schism between the successful northern SFers loyal to Grizz and a rapidly declining southern membership who are still irate after his contribution to their electoral demise in Dublin and skeptical about his general ignorance of matters south of the black pigs dyke.
Indeed Grizzler’s ham fisted hand written insult to the Quinn family could well be thrown back in his face as this issue continues to strangle SF’s electoral credibility in the 26…
Comrade Stalin: Your posts on this thread are small miracles of plain-spoken common sense and decency. Thank you.
“Their good result in the North Antrim by-election”
Earlier attack on son of Moyle by-election candidate.
I was already aware of that Nev- the fact their vote increased afterwards and in the context of many of their standard bearers having left them to criticise from outside is interesting…
I’ve just seen this. I’m absolutely flabbergasted by the lack of judgement shown by the Murphys. Declan goes to a public meeting billed to get justice for a murder victim, where he knows there will be media, and stands up to complain that Sinn Fein is being victimised?
Absolutely, totally flabbergasted.
And another thing, I can’t believe that SF are pushing the line that the SDLP is running this campaign and are packing public meetings in Crossmaglen and Cullyhanna.
Just months ago they were claiming publicly, and on this site, that the SDLP had been cleansed out of South Armagh.
CS:
Thanks for your comments here.
Some of us have been frustrated by certain SF commentators from south Armagh who scathingly dismss those of us who are critical of SF on this issue and don’t have the (dubious) qualification of being from that area. The idea that the validity of your views is somehow lessened from being born a few miles north of Cullyhanna is somewhat strange…
When did a political party supporting the family of a victim become a problem? Surely it’s perfectly reasonable?
I’m slightly concerned, watching this debate, that everyone has bought into the idea that political support for a family seeking truth is a bad thing.
“There is too much hypocrisy” indeed.
Realist,
quoteFailure of a reply on many outstanding issues can only lead all concerned to conclude the ever growing suspicion that perhaps Martin Ingrim was and is not working to a british approved agenda unquote
LOL
Well better late than never mate, get off the bus mate.
Ding Ding
Martin
Mr. Ingram,
They say talking to yourself is a sign of madness.
ingram the only one who believes in your greatness is you!!
Good thing yo live in your head instead of reality
Mr Ingrim in reference to the late Franco Hegarty and the shipment of arms captured.
Many relevant points of that operation were vague in your past correspondence and an answer to the following may clear an important issue as to your
credibility on the subject.
Why did the 26 county forces seize the arms at the particular time and was the timing as a result of fears to the consequences of not taking action when they did.
In all fairness the SF representatives who distinguished themselves so nobly at the meeting are right about how dastardly the SDLP are at this sort of game.
I mean, remember all those innocent civilians killed in SDLP bombs and assassiantion attempts carried out by the SDLP armed wing. Those guys were very dangerous and the way that the SDLP conducted themselves was disgraceful. If there’s one thing people should be careful of it’s the paramilitary, historically violent cloak of the SDLP. They’re to blame for everything, and everyone’s very lucky that their highly intelligent, reasoned representatives turned up at that meeting. Not since the Peace Women – who Danny Morrisson famously claimed were ‘ganging up’ on his party – has there been a greater threat to the people of Northern Ireland – and that doens’t even take into account SDLP involvement in crime and drug dealing. They are one terrible group the SDLP, and must be brought to justice.
The analysis from The Penguin at the start of this thread was extremely good and accurate in my view; and there is little to add to it.
The only other observation I would make is triggered by Comrade Stalin’s descriptions of the events he witnessed at the meeting.
It may be that SF is having its councillors condemn the murder whilst at the same time having unelected individuals attacking the campaign. A number of implicit messages can thereby be sent out. It can be suggested that there is a disagreement within the republican movement hence lending a thin veneer of pseudo-plausibility to the idea that the republican leadership are genuninely opposed to and horrified by this crime rather than just a bit embarrased by it. The Janus like ability of SF and the IRA to face in both directions simultaneously has a long and dishonourable history but it is a useful skill they possess. The SF councillors may thus be able to minimise the electoral damage to themselves from this murder.
In addition the seeming division might be helpful cover should Conor Murphy have to be sacrificed to placate the DUP and the governments. I suspect though that SF (rightly) calculate that their new friends are not really that demanding of their pound of flesh. These days Paisley and Robinson seem to show no great desire to play Shylock to SF’s Antonio.
It also suggests to the family that if they will allow their campaign to be subsumed into the SF machine then they might find a sympathetic ear. Whilst they might get tea and sympathy I suspect they would get little prospect of justice.
The only other observation I have has been triggered by John East Belfast. I suspect he is correct that some South Armagh residents were very supportive of the IRA. However, this episode seems to have lifted the lid a little on a part of Northern Ireland that many unionists have only a vague, almost bogeyman like understanding of. Yes I am sure there were and are supporters of the IRA. I also suspect that some South Armagh residents were held in terror by the IRA, some may have just tried to keep their heads down and wish the whole problem would go away. Seeing what has happened and still happens in South Armagh one can hardly blame the local residents for being very cautious about standing up to the men of violence. It is of course worth remembering that SF only took Newry and Armagh recently. Before and even after that many nationalists, possibly including a lot of South Armagh ones, clearly voted SDLP. Seamus Mallon whatever his faults from a unionist viewpoint was not a cheerleader or fellow traveller for the IRA.
Sadly it seems that the residents of South Armagh like those of some “loyalist” parts of Belfast are still held captive by the terrorists. Few outsiders seem to be prepared to rock the boat of the “peace process” by trying to help these people so clearly left behind by it.
turgon
i suspect s part of the establishment you are in no place to judge the republicans
from your view the ruc were a force for law and order, from theirs they were a force for murder and mayhem.
I think their view is far more accurate, of course we cold ask the Miami Show Band….. oh wait never mind
steve,
Nice try at changing the topic. My post was about SF’s behaviour surronding this murder.
I admit I also made comment on the people of South Armagh. I made comment that some of them (possibly an increasing number) are being held in thralldom by a group of criminal murderers.
Cat cut your tounge out ingrim
Still awaiting reply