“A New Year proposal that will be too good for the FAI and IFA to refuse”
The Irish Independent reports that “advanced discussions about the introduction of an All Ireland soccer league” have taken place between top eircom League and Irish League sides and with the backing of “significant third party” encouragement.
While the report cites no sources and accordingly has to be taken with a large pinch of salt, it appears the intention is to draft a New Year proposal that “will be too good for the FAI and IFA to refuse”.
Daniel McDonnell believes that while the prospect of an All Ireland league has until now been viewed as “an impossible dream” due to political and logistical hurdles, the introduction of the Setanta Sports Cup has introduced new momentum.
Early plans envisaged that the new All Ireland League would comprise twelve teams with regional leagues underneath while both the FAI Cup and IFA Cup would remain in situ thus retaining a degree of historical tradition.
Those ideas are not set in stone, though, with the only firm issue of agreement being that any club wishing to be in the top league should be a full time professional outfit with suitable facilities.
Those clubs in the North that have participated in secret talks naturally include big guns like Linfield and Glentoran but there are also surprise packages such as Newry City who have ambitious plans about their future which they also expect to announce early next year.
Naturally, the clubs need to convince the FAI and the IFA of the merits of such a league or at least force them to sit up and take notice.
The origins of the initiative came from meetings between the six leading eircom League full time clubs — Cork City, Drogheda United, Derry City, St Patrick’s Athletic, Bohemians and Galway United.
The logistical problems include the distribution of European places as well as the strong possibility that FIFA would demand that if the Irish leagues are united then the international team should go the same way.
Speaking of FIFA, the organisation’s Executive Committtee is scheduled to give its verdict on the eligibility row regarding footballers born in Northern Ireland declaring for the Irish Republic this Saturday in Tokyo.
The division on this issue comes down to those who want to make Northern Ireland institutions work and remain inclusive and those who wish to advance “separate but equalâ€.
No, for Nationalists it’s to do with freedom of choice (FAI or the IFA). For Unionists, it’s about control (IFA only*).
Interestingly, I noted one Unionist speaker admitted yesterday that if a player wasn’t good enough for Northern Ireland, it was perfectly fine for them to play for another ‘country’. So, no national territory ideological-style objections there.
Iain
what’s to stop linfield just joining the FAI league if the money was right.
The IFA and UEFA.
Haven’t Derry City already done so!
With special dispensation from UEFA.
The IFA may regret allowing Derry to do that as it dilutes the notion that NI is exclusively the territory of the IFA
True. Derry should be brought back into the fold.
“It most certainly isn’t meaningless. It allows the IFA to proceed knowing that they have the majority backing of the NI Assembly despite the cross-community mechanism being inappropriately invoked.”
It tells them that we are divided on this issue exactly across sectarian lines ie nothing new.
“If the motion “winds up the taigs†then that is because nationalists are advocating apartheid on this issue, nothing to do with bad faith by unionists. The division on this issue comes down to those who want to make Northern Ireland institutions work and remain inclusive and those who wish to advance “separate but equalâ€.”
No Nationalist politician then wants to make NI work. You are a bit fucked in that goal then, no?
I am an Irish citizen Chekov. The problem is that Unionists don’t respect that and want to “wind up the taigs”. the difference is actually between those who respect identity and citizenship and those who want to dictate it.
The motion was entirely meaningless and a waste of time. It’s not as if the IFA were unaware that they would have the (slight) majority backing of the assembly.
However it did, once again, expose certain unionist’s singular failure to understand (or accept) that a sizeable proportion of the people in NI do not have any allegiance to NI, do not accept that their allegiance to the ROI is something to be ashamed about, do not class themselves as citizens of NI and when they exercise their personal choice, are not being coerced into doing so.
Quote of the day must go to Miss McIlveen: “Not only are we one of four football associations in one country, but a foreign country had a claim on our territory, and now willingly hands out its passports to our citizens to justify stealing our players”.
Again, I ask, what part of “I’m Irish” can they not accept?
We have been over this 100 times. Choice is a nonsense as regards international football. The fact is that the IFA have a majority of democratically elected representatives onside on this issue and that can only strengthen their resolve. Any decision FIFA make along the lines of their proposal will be open to legal challenge on grounds of inconsistent application of their rules.
The broader issue is nothing to do with disrespect for identity. It is insisting that nationalists abide by the notion of consent and don’t attempt to conflate acceptance of their identity and aspirations with complete ignorance of the existance of Northern Ireland.
Choice is a nonsense as regards international football.
NOT where is is dual-eligibilty.
Any decision FIFA make along the lines of their proposal will be open to legal challenge on grounds of inconsistent application of their rules.
Dream on. They’re being entirely consistent.
It is insisting that nationalists abide by the notion of consent and don’t attempt to conflate acceptance of their identity and aspirations with complete ignorance of the existance of Northern Ireland.
Nothing about control, eh? Are we still allowed to support the Republic? That would appear to contravene all these sub-clauses to the GFA you dreamed up last night.
The IFA may regret allowing Derry to do that as it dilutes the notion that NI is exclusively the territory of the IFA
I don’t think the IFA was in a position to allow anything, considering that they rejected Derry City’s application for re-admission to the Irish League thirteen times in a row. Consequently, I doubt there’s much appetite amongst the supporters for a return either. All that travelling to Coleraine to play their home games, for one thing…
“NOT where is is dual-eligibilty.”
If the rules are applied consistently there will not be dual-eligibility.
“Dream on. They’re being entirely consistent.”
Not to this point. Even the advocates of dual-eligibility are framing their argument as a “special case”. FIFA will need to decide whether they are prepared to stand by their decision as a general precedent or face a legal challenge. If they prefer the former option they are sowing the seeds of mayhem in international football.
“Are we still allowed to support the Republic?”
You can support Kazakhstan if you wish, but unless you have a parent / grandparent or were born there I’d be strongly opposed to you being eligible to play for them. The less unpalatable types from either side of the divide we attract the happier I am.
If the rules were applied consistantly there would be no n.i/Scotland/Wales or England team, but a single team representing all four regions.
Chekov
We’ll see what happens Saturday and take it from there. Ad nauseum and all that.
Chekov,
I take the point re travel for amateur sports. I once played Rugby for a Cheshire side in the North West league. Travelling to Cumbria or Workington for a friendly amateur game was a pain. We had the Isle of Man in our league too.
But aren’t we talking about a higher level of professional football (so the players shouldn’t mind) and home and away fixtures in a league.
And even now don’t Derry City fans make these trips all the time?
Let alone all those non-travelling Ulster football fans I see on the Seacat all the time on thier way to Glasgow.
“And even now don’t Derry City fans make these trips all the time?
Let alone all those non-travelling Ulster football fans I see on the Seacat all the time on thier way to Glasgow. ”
Also, realistically, away support isn’t key. Home support is.
Travel is more of an issue in terms of cost if players are going full-time, rather than inconvenience – just one of a wide range of costs which will spiral exponentially. Although many players will be reluctant to give up jobs which they can maintain part-time to become full-time professionals in any case.
Derry City fans may well travel long distances, but that doesn’t translate to a successful model. Many more long distance and cross-border trips will take place every week. And the product will not be equivalent to the Old Firm or to the Premiership games reguarly attended by many Northern Irish fans. Those fans will continue to travel across the water for their football.
Talk to rugby people and they will tell you that they rue the day the AIL came into being.
The current 3 division AIL in rugby doesn’t work and it is too expensive for smaller clubs to travel the length of the country.
A more sensible structure would be a single division AIL, provincial leagues and a inter-provincial playoff for promotion and relegation. The trouble is, clubs don’t want to demote themselves into a provincial league that they perceive as lower status and it will reinforce the gap between the top AIL clubs and the rest.
Pacman
Again, I ask, what part of “I’m Irish†can they not accept?
You don’t have to be from the South, or a citizen of the South, to be Irish. Being Irish is not the same as being a Southern citizen. What part of that do you not understand?
Dec
I don’t think the IFA was in a position to allow anything, considering that they rejected Derry City’s application for re-admission to the Irish League thirteen times in a row.
The IFA did not reject Derry City’s application to rejoin the Irish League. That decision was made by the Irish League itself: a self-governing body.
Consequently, I doubt there’s much appetite amongst the supporters for a return either. All that travelling to Coleraine to play their home games, for one thing…
If Derry City rejoined the Irish League they wouldn’t play their home games in Coleraine.
I am an Irish citizen, Willowfield. My passport and every ethos of my being tells me so.
I have not and never will have any allegiance to the state known as Northern Ireland irrespective of whether I am born, bred and buttered within it’s political contours. Fortunately there are hundreds of thousands like me and of course, there are hundreds of thousands who live in the same space that are unlike me (yourself included, no doubt). So what part don’t you understand?
Two quotes from yesterday from Mr Ross:
“many nationalists in Northern Ireland give their allegiance to a foreign football team”. Ermm, sorry but we don’t – it’s our football team, representative of all of our country;
“Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland who come from the nationalist community may choose to represent the Irish Republic, shunning their own country to play for our geographical neighbours”. And once again, Northern Ireland is not our country.
It’s all quite simple really. Well, except for some, apparently.
Pacman
I am an Irish citizen, Willowfield. My passport and every ethos of my being tells me so.
Please accept my hearty congratulations: I’m delighted for you.
But – as I said above you don’t have to be from the South, or a citizen of the South, to be Irish. And being Irish is not the same as being a Southern citizen. Your own personal citizenship status alters that not one iota. What part of that do you not understand?
I have not and never will have any allegiance to the state known as Northern Ireland irrespective of whether I am born, bred and buttered within it’s political contours.
Wonderful, but it still doesn’t alter the fact that you don’t have to be a Southern citizen to be Irish.
Your condescension is befitting of your unionism – thanks for proving my point.
I understand perfectly who I am and to whom I owe my allegiance. This is and always has been a matter for myself. Who you are and who you give your allegiance to is entirely a matter for yourself.
Now as soon as the IFA and political (or otherwise) unionists accept this reality, the sooner we can move forward.
Indeed Willowfield,
Pacman is Irish regardless of his citizenship (though he has Irish citizenship too). Someone born in Dublin is also Irish (and an Irish citizen). Pacman is Irish in the same way as someone born in Dublin (or Galway or Cork). Equally the FAI team is Pacman’s team in the same way that it is for someone from Dublin. It isn’t a ‘Foreign’ team for him. It represents his nation. What part of that don’t you understand?
“Who you are and who you give your allegiance to is entirely a matter for yourself”
Wow.
Usually it’s “you’re Irish you imperial lackey…get the chip off yer shoulder…you’re not British!”
Progress.
How about Belfast United just adopts the NI shirt, stuffs every other team in Ireland and represents the All-Irish League every year in Europe?
That’d be worth travelling for.
Oops
Just thought of Ulster Rugby.
Oh dear.
Tread carefully. Them’s me dreams you’re treading on.
“Usually it’s “you’re Irish you imperial lackey…get the chip off yer shoulder…you’re not British!â€
Sorry BU but I don’t try and never have tried to impose my nationality on anyone so it’s hardly progress.
It’s a shame the unionists I quoted can’t afford me the same respect.
Pacman
You haven’t answered my quesstion: what do you not understand about the statement that you don’t have to be a Southern citizen to be Irish?
I understand perfectly who I am and to whom I owe my allegiance. This is and always has been a matter for myself. Who you are and who you give your allegiance to is entirely a matter for yourself.
Instead of making statements of the obvious, would you mind answering the question?
Now as soon as the IFA and political (or otherwise) unionists accept this reality, the sooner we can move forward.
I’m unaware of either the IFA or unionists not accepting this reality.
Now answer the question.
Iain
Pacman is Irish regardless of his citizenship (though he has Irish citizenship too).
I know – but he doesn’t seem to understand that.
Someone born in Dublin is also Irish (and an Irish citizen). Pacman is Irish in the same way as someone born in Dublin (or Galway or Cork). Equally the FAI team is Pacman’s team in the same way that it is for someone from Dublin. It isn’t a ‘Foreign’ team for him. It represents his nation. What part of that don’t you understand?
There is none of that that I don’t understand. Why do you suppose that there is?
I understand the question Willowfield – the answer is Yes, I do understand that I (or anyone else) does not have to be a citizen of the South to be Irish. Your point being in relation to the thread?
At last.
So if you understand it, why did you state: “Again, I ask, what part of “I’m Irish†can they not accept?” in response to those arguing for the Southern team not to be able to pick Northern players?
That statement doesn’t make sense if – as you say you do – being Irish is not restricted to being a Southerner.
Willowfield
i would guess you do understand all of that. You may disagree with me when i say that the NI team is really a ‘unionist’ team, but i think you’ll know what i mean when i say that too. The problem is that instead of addressing the perception of the NI team amongst the nationalist section of the population, the IFA have taken the riskier path (the one over which they don’t have complete control). Having the Unionist block at Stormont then condemn those who choose to play for their own national side just reinforces the perception that the NI side is a unionist team. what an ‘own goal’ I think would be the appropriate pun!
I agree that the debate was pointless from the IFA’s point of view, although it did show again that nationalists prefer an apartheid Northern Ireland to a shared Northern Ireland.
What you say, though, doesn’t alter the fact that pacman’s statement was nonsensical.
(The IFA, by the way, has addressed/is addressing the perception of which you speak.)
Because Willowfield, their argument is predicated on their insistence that my country and my team are foreign to me. You did actually read the quotes?
If Derry City rejoined the Irish League they wouldn’t play their home games in Coleraine.
Thanks for that.
No: they’re predicated on the fact that the ROI is objectively and literally in fact a “foreign” country (you do realise it broke away from the UK and is now an independent and separate state?).
That doesn’t mean it is “foreign” to you.
And – more to the point – it doesn’t mean that you have to be from the ROI, or a citizen of ROI, to be Irish.
“That doesn’t mean it is “foreign†to you”.
Thank you Willowfield for accepting that. You will then, I assume, join with me in calling for Unionist politicians and the IFA to accept the reality that it is the right of any northerner to play for the ROI if he so chooses?
The passports, ROI/NI international teams are done to death around here & there will be an opportunity to do it again post the meeting in Tokyo. Why not stick to the original subject of the thread i.e. the advantages/diadvantages of an AIL?
Didn’t Dermot McNicholl from Co.Derry play for Ireland in Australia in the compromise rules and no one in the occupied 6 counties objected. Soccer should be the same.
heaven forbid TS, heaven forbid…
There are certainly lessons to be learnt from the botched AIL, however i don’t believe it to be the total failure it’s often betrayed to be.
The main interest for me would be raising the standard of Irish football to the point where it would be possible to generate better income, improve stadia and potentially get through a few rounds of the UEFA cup.
Problems i see are the more sectarian IMHO nature of football crowds, i doubt there’s ever been any trouble at away rugby fixtures, never had a problem watching Ulster in Leinster/Munster (cept for woeful performances !) but i’d say the prospect of a few ‘well policed’ encounters would concern all sides. Please don’t go down the themmuns and yousuns route with this. Inner City football teams from Dublin and Belfast do tend to attract a small (emphasises small !!!!) minority of fans who have the propensity to drink too much and become distinctly unpleasant. I have been pleasantly surprised at the apparent lack of trouble at Setanta games though.
Also. Would the NI teams be happy to play in summer as per the current Eircomm set up ?
Does anyone know where i can get the text of the debate from yesterday
“although it did show again that nationalists prefer an apartheid Northern Ireland to a shared Northern Ireland.”
Let’s turn the tables, unionists prefer an apartheid Ireland to a shared Ireland.
Ans: blah, blah, blah SinnFein/IRA, popery, the meeyaainlond, the prahhvunce, her majesty’s loyal subjects etc.
http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/record/reports2007/071211.htm
Does anyone know where i can get the text of the debate from yesterday
http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/record/reports2007/071211.htm#4
Here.
Plenty of gems in there, for example:
P Maskey: I ask Members to recall Neil Lennon and Anton Rogan. Every time that they kicked the ball while playing for Northern Ireland, they were booed. They were jeered off the pitch, because they played for Glasgow Celtic. [Interruption.]
Some Members: It never happened.
and, Michelle McIlveen’s higly amusing impersonation of someone born after 1996 and in a cave (note the prodigious use of the word ‘our’):
Does the Minister agree that Northern Ireland is in a unique position? Not only are we one of four football associations in one country, but a foreign country had a claim on our territory, and now willingly hands out its passports to our citizens to justify stealing our players.
All you need to know:
Nationalist Votes 40 Nationalist Ayes 0 [0.0%]
Unionist Votes 48 Unionist Ayes 48 [100.0%]
It should be noted that the ‘cross community’ party also voted ‘Aye’.
Yes, Mr Lunn produced a couple of gems:
“I am sure that Pat Ramsey remembers John Crossan and the abuse that he received at Windsor Park in the bad old days. In his case, the sectarian abuse was reasonably good humoured, and, as it happened, he took it in good spirit”.
Wasn’t it great in the old days?
“If we are to produce a Northern Ireland team that welcomes players and support from all Northern Irish men and women, we will not be helped by having a decision foisted on us by FIFA”.
Do people in the Alliance party actually live in the real world? Fans are as liable to change their allegiance from ROI to NI as they are to change their allegiance from Man Utd to Liverpool.
How likely is it that the lobbying by Poots an Kennedy will be Sucessful with FIFA.At this stage its stil possible FIFA might be won over by the arguments that this will create a Sporting Apartheid and that this will open a can of worms in relation to the Balkans
‘How likely is it that the lobbying by Poots an Kennedy will be Sucessful with FIFA’
Unlikely, especially as over 40% of the electorate with the IFA region fully support Northern lads turning out for internationals in Dublin.
Newbie
I think the key element guiding FIFA will be the legal consequences. Circular 901, introduced to deal with the ‘Qatar Brazilians’ scenario, is quite specific in triggering the additional criteria for eligibilty (2-yr residency, bithrplace of parents) in the context of individuals “changing” their nationality.
Given that Sinn Fein, the Irish government and FAI have very clearly pointed out to FIFA that northern nationalists are born Irish citizens and do not “change” their citizenship status from that of another nation, then I think it highly probable FIFA will realise that it must follow through with the Legal Committee’s proposals, or at least a variation explicitly permitting Irish citizens across the island being eligible to represent the Republic of Ireland.
Jesus wept, not another one of those neverending pointless thread on soccer. Who really gives a toss? Face the facts, soccer In Ireland (both north and south) is a joke. The IFA and FAI are Mickey Mouse outfits who couldn’t organize a piss-up in a brewery. At the end of the day Irish soccer fans are more interested in Man U/Arsenal/Liverpool/Celtic/Rangers than in Linfield/Glentoran/Bohemians/Shamrock Rovers, etc.
On the international front it’s equally embarrassing – NI losing to Iceland TWICE (a country with a smaller population than Belfast FFS) and ROI conceding 5 goals against Cyprus (despite that country’s north-south divide) – and they have to come begging to the GAA for a pitch to play on. Pathetic.
Linfield have rubbished the all-Ireland league claims:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/local/article3245335.ece
So the original article was yet more crap, uninformed journalism from the BT/II stable quelle surprise-George, I’d suggest, given their recent form, you should completely ignore any more speculative stories of this kind emerging from the “sport” depot of these two comics.
Pacman
Thank you Willowfield for accepting that. You will then, I assume, join with me in calling for Unionist politicians and the IFA to accept the reality that it is the right of any northerner to play for the ROI if he so chooses?
First, there is no such “rightâ€: it is entirely up to the FAI to select its players, presumably based on merit. If the FAI does not wish to select a player, whether he is from the north or not, that is the end of the matter – there is no “right†for that player to play. There are, after all, only 11 places on the team.
Second, the current reality is, indeed, that players from NI are eligible for the ROI.
Third, I will not join you in calling for that current reality to remain, since it is unfair.
Chris Donnelly
Given that Sinn Fein, the Irish government and FAI have very clearly pointed out to FIFA that northern nationalists are born Irish citizens and do not “change†their citizenship status from that of another nation, then I think it highly probable FIFA will realise that it must follow through with the Legal Committee’s proposals, or at least a variation explicitly permitting Irish citizens across the island being eligible to represent the Republic of Ireland.
That is very possible. It is also possible, however, that FIFA will not wish individual members to be disadvantaged as a result of extra-territorial citizenship laws being enacted in other member countries, and may therefore wish to tighten up.
‘Jesus wept, not another one of those neverending pointless thread on soccer. Who really gives a toss? Face the facts, soccer In Ireland (both north and south) is a joke. The IFA and FAI are Mickey Mouse outfits who couldn’t organize a piss-up in a brewery. At the end of the day Irish soccer fans are more interested in Man U/Arsenal/Liverpool/Celtic/Rangers than in Linfield/Glentoran/Bohemians/Shamrock Rovers, etc’.
Well I’ll give NI this much, they made a better fist of qualifying for Euro 2008 than their English counterparts, the stalwart representatives of those ‘mighty’ English clubs you listed.
On the international front it’s equally embarrassing – NI losing to Iceland TWICE (a country with a smaller population than Belfast FFS) and ROI conceding 5 goals against Cyprus (despite that country’s north-south divide) – and they have to come begging to the GAA for a pitch to play on. Pathetic.
Dec -
Another couple of exmaples of classic idiocy from the debate…
Paul Butler -
“On the issue of flags, will the Member tell me why the Northern Ireland football team is the only team that flies the Union Jack and plays the national anthem? Scotland plays its local anthem; Wales plays its local anthem; even England does not play ‘God Save the Queen’. Northern Ireland is the only country to play it.”
Er, no, Mr Butler, the NI team doesn’t use the Union Flag (why do so many nationalists keep insisting it does?), and England do use GSTQ.
Ken Robinson:
“The IFA website, entitled ‘Our Wee Country’…”
No, Ken, that would be the unofficial fan site Our Wee Country.
Oneill
From that article:
“To sustain all-Ireland football you would need average attendances of around 5,000,” said Kerr. That fan base doesn’t exist at most clubs.
There is a catch-22 here. Those fan bases won’t exist unless the product improves – football standards, stadia and competition. The product won’t improve until there is more money coming in.
I’d wonder if 5,000 average is really needed, especially if the TV money is “too good to refuse”. According to wiki, the Scottish First division only averages two thousand, and there are leagues all through Europe that only get near 3, though I don’t know how professional they are:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues
League of Ireland averages 1,700 in that link, which isn’t far off. No reason six counties teams couldn’t match it, in the long run.
I understand the risks, but there is a depressing lack of ambition.
Mike
“Er, no, Mr Butler, the NI team doesn’t use the Union Flag (why do so many nationalists keep insisting it does?), and England do use GSTQ.”
Perhaps they look at the TV and just assume it given all the Union Jacks there. And why do you still feel the Stormont Banner is any better?