Sinn Fein and the Quinn killing…
I was in Westminster, briefly, on Tuesday were there was some feverish speculation amongst lobby journalists about the Paul Quinn killing and including some interesting lines about who actually was there. It may all turn out to be just that, speculation. And for that reason, I’m not about to repeat any of it in the public domain. But, at the very least, there are some questions arising from Sinn Fein’s treatment of the family by getting its revenge in first and tarring the victim with the ‘criminality’ tag, without, it would seem, any proof being offered one way or the other.And there is a pattern in Sinn Fein’s behaviour towards grieving families who ask awkward questions that matches past events. Apart from any moral questions, it looks pretty bad from the outside. We can see the pattern most publicly in the aftermath of the Robert McCartney killing.
On that occasion Alex Maskey came out fairly rapidly and blamed ‘a knife culture’: a line that fitted a fairly vigorous news story in England at the time. As it turned out that, according a statement that eventually made by the IRA after a lengthy news investigation had uncovered a substantial Sinn Fein presence in the bar where the fracas began, three of those involved had serving IRA volunteers at the time.
In the immediate wake of Quinn murder, Gerry Adams referred to accounts emerging from the family and others that Republicans were involved as ‘tittle tattle’. He then suggested this was the result of a dispute between diesel smugglers. His source: a few phone calls to some people in the area.
Whatever Adams’ senior status as President of his party, it is not a statement that can be traded upon with any confidence.
As to the overall situation, there are several levels to this.
One relates to any future individual prosecutions. Apart from John Laird’s use of parliamentary privilege, I’ve not heard anyone mention individuals. Nor should there be, at least not without serious proof, or at the very least a police charge.
A second rests on the issue highlighted in a letter send out to local residents by the Quinn support group: i.e. public safety in the area.
And then there is the political aspect of this. At the time of the McCartney murder I consistently argued that the party’s coldness towards the interests of the dead man’s family was inimicable to the party’s longer term electoral interests. SF activists commenting on Slugger were fairly gung ho and saying that the Westminster elections would not be affected.
In the event the party took Mallon’s old seat that same year with relative ease. But they missed their other targets by an Irish mile. A good rally this March got them another net gain, but the election in the south was, by Chris’s own searingly honest account a complete disaster.
Incidents like this, and more importantly, the party’s vicious public reaction to it are messing with the party’s brand. The association is less with radical politics and increasingly with a callous disregard for the lives of anyone who disagrees with them.
In short it is in danger of becoming the ‘nasty party’, an image that the party’s behaviour, at various levels, in the face of public disasters like this does nothing to allay.
The thing that prevents any of this being serious politically damaging at the moment is that its nationalist opposition in Northern Ireland at the moment is a shambles. The senior parties in the Executive at the moment have a virtual autocracy that even President Chavez might have settled for. Sinn Fein and the DUP will seek to use their majority powers inside the Executive to dig in and settle down as the ‘natural parties of government’ for the long term.
But to make an analogy with ‘another place’, the Tories looked like they could walk on water with British Labour in 80s and 90s and seemed to have dumped the ‘nasty’ tag when they got rid of Thatcher, until Black Wednesday and Tony Blair, between them, finally buried them for a good ten years.
The lesson, I would suggest, is that brand corrosion happens over a long time, but it takes a decent opposition knock over any political project. So long as there is no effective opposition (and there is no sign of one) the party is safe enough in Northern Ireland. But they have already had a recent taste of brand failure in the Republic.
In the meantime, whoever is right or wrong, some of the party’s treatment of the Quinn family in the wake of their son’s killing has been downright nasty. In terms of its brand, this is fairly viscous stuff. And like tar, it sticks.
Gum-
It’s interesting how you describe Mick’s post as “disgusting” when you basically admit that the provisional movement is defending the people involved in the killing (when it should be shunning them, as you say), yet don’t seem too bothered by the morality (or lack thereof) of that stance.
There’s certainly something disgusting going on, but it ain’t Mick’s post.
No-one is using this issue to atatck SF except those extremists with a sectarian, anti-power sharing agenda. The DUP are still in government, aren’t they?
The rest of us have a scepticism to which we are fully entitled but we also have a humanity and compassion – both features which are not remarkably in evidence in the SF response to this murder.
Oh really El Mat? Thanks for clearing that up. What IS disgusting is that some use discussion of this murder for their own ends. I include you in this too. You dont get as positively orgasmic as the UUs do when a republican is murdered by ‘one of their own’, but your love of bashing SF comes through so strongly.
If I was unclear in what I said earlier: I think SF should shut up discussing the young man’s own history and simply condemn those that killed him as brutal and incredibly cowardly thugs.
Gum-
Ah, so it’s me in the wrong now. Hmmm.
By the way, I agree when you say “I think SF should shut up discussing the young man’s own history and simply condemn those that killed him as brutal and incredibly cowardly thugs.”
It’s the fact that they haven’t done this that has spawned the whole discussion. I’m not to blame for that. The Quinn Support Group is not to blame for that. The killers of Paul Quinn and the members of Sinn Féin who have acted like idiots since then have only themselves to blame if uncomfortable discussions are held on Slugger or elsewhere.
Chris Gaskin: “NO I AM NOT!!!!!! ”
Then why the repeated stress that the man was a fuel smuggler? The obviouss implication is that, as an active criminal, the “wages of sin” being death, he simply paid the price so common to his chosen vocation. If you are not actively seeking to diminish the culpability of the killers, what point is there to bring it up?
Now, for the points you seem unwilling (or unable) to address…
You have remained notably silent on Quinn’s altercations with PIRA members. I wonder why that is? Hmmmm… a fella exchanges harsh words with PIRA members and comes down with a bad case of the dead… reminds me of a fella in a bar, not that long ago.
As for your comment about “PIRA having learned from past events,†so long as you have revered figures with funny pirate nick-names and on-going
criminal enterprises, you’re going to continue to have these “incidents,†since criminal enterprises neither protect themselves nor insure easily. Ergo, they must be actively defended.
The best bet would be to tell all the paramilitaries—both sides, all branches, splinters and roots—to get stuffed. Give them until 1/1/08 to wind down and wrap up their criminal enterprises and then let PSNI do their job. The longer we have to listen to mealy-mouthed word games like this, the longer it’s going to be SSDD. Better to lance the boil of paracriminal activity and let the pus and scum drain out.
Gum: “I think SF should shut up discussing the young man’s own history and simply condemn those that killed him as brutal and incredibly cowardly thugs. ”
That only works if PIRA either has no involvement or their involvement is such that it does not trace back to any notable individuals.
The volume and frequency of their discussion of Quinn’s background would suggest that these circumstances are unlikely.
Gum: “You dont get as positively orgasmic as the UUs do when a republican is murdered by ‘one of their own’, but your love of bashing SF comes through so strongly. ”
The Unionist side of the equation kept a firewall between their paramilitary (and, thus, their para-criminal) organizations and their politics, which affords them the opportunity to gloat at SF’s discomfit.
As El Matador rightly points out, the fault lies with the killers and the SF hacks and flacks who seem to have a collection of tin ears.
Dread – why give them any more time? How about the 7/12/07 as the end to criminality?!
El Mat – I’m not afraid of ‘uncomfortable’ discussions. What I hate is the likes of Mick telling us he heard scandalous and shocking rumours of who was there, and then adopting the holier than thou tone and says he wont repeat them. Nicely done, no? We’re all left with the image of Gerry Adams holding one of the bars.
Come on, you dont think that sloppy and irresponsible? If you dont, try imaging Mick treating the DUP the same way. Yeah, neither do I!!
Gum-
“We’re all left with the image of Gerry Adams holding one of the bars.”
Come on now, don’t be silly. No one has suggested that the orders came down from Gerry- this was a local thing. Gerry isn’t in the driving seat down in south Armagh.
As for your point about the DUP- they haven’t a recent history of provaricating or indeed misleading people over their associates’ involvement in killings like that of Robert McCartney or Frank Kerr or Garda McCabe. Nor have they a track record of dealing with people in this way, unlike the provisional movement. Sinn Féin and the IRA have history in the art of smoke and daggers when it comes to inconvenient murders.
Smoke and mirrors even!
Gum: “Dread – why give them any more time? How about the 7/12/07 as the end to criminality?! ”
Four reasons, actually…
1) A bit of symbolism — new year, new leaf, etc.
2) There is always some idiot who doesn’t get the memo. By granting a few extra weeks, hopefully the stupid and the oblivious get a little more time to catch the clue.
3) It is the X-mas season and even extortionists and hoods need some extra dosh for presents
4) It going to take just as much time for the police to wrap their heads around the notion of the law not being trumped by political issues as the hoods will. It best not to rush them.
Seriously Dread? I dont think any of those reasons are worth anything. The writing has been on the wall for long enough. Criminality must be over.
Gum: “I dont think any of those reasons are worth anything. The writing has been on the wall for long enough. Criminality must be over. ”
I don’t disagree, although some would appear to disagree.
I figure one last polite exchange, expressed in small words and large block letter — perhaps in crayon on butcher’s paper — telling them time is up, isn’t going to hurt anyone, except perhaps the hoods, spides, smugglers, pushers and the others of that ilk. (If this doesn’t make it clear that this was a “modest proposal,” nothing will.)
But that is, arguably, a different issue than the one central to this discussion — my fault, so mea culpa.
At central issue is, as a minimum, SF’s amazing ability, if nothing else, than to look and act guilty as hand-made, home-made sin. I can argue about Donaldson and The Northern Bank robbery, insofar as there are other candidates for guilt with readily apparent motives. I can even fold my head around the notion of some of the past murders, such as McCartney having a large aspect of misplaced loyalties on the part of some SF / PIRA personnel after a drunken encounter gone wrong.
The Quinn murder hits me differently. It could be the premeditation — gloves and boilersuits. It could be the lack of another readily identifiable suspects with a natural motive. It could simply be SF’s ham-handed effort to get out ahead of the story, with frequent repetition of the young man’s history. There is something in this scenario that stinks and perhaps what makes me the most suspicious is the inability of some to acknowledge the smell.
6/12/07
QUINNS INVITE SINN FÉIN COUNCILLORS TO MEETING
The Quinn family have invited four Sinn Féin councillors from the Slieve Gullion ward to attend a campaign meeting in Crossmaglen Community Centre on Thursday 13th December.
Briege and Stephen Quinn said:
“All public representatives have been invited to the meeting. We have noted the condemnation of Paul’s murder in a recent statement on behalf of the Sinn Féin councillors and their offer of assistance in the campaign to bring his killers to justice. To the best of our knowledge, none of these councillors has made or repeated any allegation of criminality against Paul. They could assist us by attending the meeting organised by our Support Group as representatives of the area where we live and Paul lived.
“We would like to draw two points to their attention. At the public meeting in Cullyhanna we repeated the appeal we had made at the funeral for no retaliation at any kind. We very specifically said: ‘Please don’t break windows or intimidate people because you are hurting them but you are also hurting us too. We have been hurt enough. Please let the PSNI and the Garda do the work. We want justice for Paul through the courts and no other way.’
“Secondly, we and our Support Group have wanted from the beginning to take all politics out of this murder investigation and to have people of all political opinions and none support our campaign. We and the Support Group have stated very clearly that there is nothing known about Paul’s murder which should have any impact whatever on the power-sharing Executive and Sinn Féin’s continued participation in it.
“We expect public representatives from north and south to attend: invitations have been issued to TDs and councillors from the border counties.â€
http://www.quinnsupport.com/news.htm
Gum,
“Mick’s disgusting post above allows ugly and vicious rumours to circulate to an even greater extent.”
The blog post is quite long and fairly detailed. Which part of it is ‘disgusting’ in your view? Certainly some of the details in it discuss some pretty distasteful aspects of the post peace process era, but I struggle to see what there is within the post itself that could earn that description.
As to rumours, I have specifically argued that these should play no part in the discussion. Indeed I have had to pull one or two. But if you are suggesting that this issue in all its messy complexity should not be discussed at all, then I respectfully disagree.
I would agree with one aspect though. Someone from inside the Republican movement should stand up and for once call a spade a spade. The very least that could be done is to declare that what we have here is a dirty peace which perhaps inevitably follows any dirty war.
Instead we get this absurd blaming the victim line that wears all the thinner for its repeated use.
Mick
Have you any evidence that the Republican movement was involved in this murder?
For that would be the only basis upon which you could make that last comment, though perhaps lies and innuendo suffice with you so far as Republicans are concerned.
Chris, there is evidence – you choose to ignore it – there is no proof – that will probably have to wait until SF decide the political/electoral pressure is too great to keep up their current widgery position – Quinn was to blame for his own death.
You don’t have to buy into the idea that the IRA was directly involved in this or any other attack to take that stance Chris.
But the truth here is that all paramilitary groups from the IRA to the UDA have been involved in punishment beatings for the whole period of the peace process. It is how they held in check all manner of anti social behaviour, as well as dealing with political dissent. You only have to listen to the complaints from locals that they don’t do it any more to know that it is what they did.
Now that it is finally and definitively off limits, the party could do with being a little more robust with those who continue to use those method. But sticking the verbal boot directly into the victim’s family sends another message entirely.
For my money that is a strategy that is only ever likely to keep the movement ever moving backwards.
The question is rather why can they not bring themselves to do it?
Wrong Mick, for your statement below would need Republican involvement in order for it to be carried out.
Trying to suggest otherwise is disingenuous in the extreme.
“Someone from inside the Republican movement should stand up and for once call a spade a spade. The very least that could be done is to declare that what we have here is a dirty peace which perhaps inevitably follows any dirty war.”
…………………………………….
“Sticking the verbal boot directly into the victims family sends another message entirely.”
That hasn’t happened in this case, are you suggesting that it has occurred???
Chris Gaskin: “For that would be the only basis upon which you could make that last comment, though perhaps lies and innuendo suffice with you so far as Republicans are concerned. ”
Funnily enough, did not SF not use lies and innuendo (not unlike your repetition that Quinn was a fuel smuggler… gee, what conclusion is a body supposed to draw from that, I wonder…) to seek to hide PIRA’s complicity with past murders?
If a body cries wolf one too many times, the folks stop believining their cries. Proclaim you innocence loudly (and falsely) one too many times, split a few too many hairs, and folks will likewise stop believing.
If you live by the innuendo, you may die by the innuendo.
Mick Fealty: “The question is rather why can they not bring themselves to do it? ”
Who wants to be the one who kills the goose what lays the golden eggs?
Mick
Your no 14 post is spot on, but to be fair to SF there line will be if they do this and openly admit this is a dirty peace, there enemies will immediately cry back, there we told you they admit themselves they are up to their necks in criminality.
Look how the Tories behaved when Gordon Brown said there had been criminality in the Abraham’s case, the Tories started flinging his honesty back in his face, i e even the PM admitted a crime has been committed.
But you are correct there needs to be some honesty here, perhaps someone like Jim Gibney who is known as a man who tests the water on Adams behalf should write something on this.
What enrages and disappoints many people over and again is as you say this knee-jerk reaction from SF which has little reality with actual events. The trouble with the whole rotten process is that each of the party’s enjoy it greatly when one of the other parties gets into difficulties. Which makes a nonsense of coalition government. Because if what you say should occur it should be coming from both SF and the DUP jointly.
Now if the chuckle brothers were to say we are where we are but we have a long way to go before we see the back of paramilitary criminality etc, instead of going around pretending to be best buddies whilst plotting against each other the process might move forward, although i will not be holding my breath.
Chris,
This has been a tour de force and you must be exhausted.
But perception is reality for many if not most people. Your post in answer to Mick Hall a while back made your personal opinion very clear and is to be admired.
Yet I think many people obviously feel that you are defending the indefensible.
Time for a well earned rest.
Chris Gaskin: “That hasn’t happened in this case, are you suggesting that it has occurred??? ”
First of all, your distinction is noted and found to be amusing, in a darkly humorous fashion. I can almost hear the poor SF flack-hack wheezing “But we didn’t do it *THIS* time…” The fact that you felt the need to make the distinction is telling.
Second, what would you call stressing that Quinn was a fuel smuggler, if not having a go at the victim and his family? What useful purpose does it serve, other than to diminish the apparent severity of the crime, by tarring Quinn as a criminal and partly culpable in his death?
Mick Hall: “but to be fair to SF there line will be if they do this and openly admit this is a dirty peace, there enemies will immediately cry back, there we told you they admit themselves they are up to their necks in criminality. ”
Sorta like Republicans have reacted to collusion reports in recent memory, Mick?
The major difference that I can see is that, in the case of Republican criminality, no one is really all that in denial — sure, the hacks and flacks stumble through the right words of denial, but the man on the street has the eyes to see and ears to hear the truth. It lacks the level of self-delusion that Unionists had over the issue of collusion.
The other problem is that if this boil is not lanced, it will continue until the stink gets so great that such an admission is unavoidable, ala Gordon in the Abraham matter. As they say, you can pay now or pay later — but paying later will likely to be more expensive. If the SF spinners weren’t so left-footed, it would be better to pay now and go forward than let this mess fester until something erupts that can’t be spun.
Paul Quinn was a fuel smuggler so maybe the police should be looking more deeply into his associates and background. Surely thats where the likely suspects exist.
By the way how come I have heard inuendo about run ins with PIRA but never any facts? Except for the fact that Paul Quinn attacked a old man with out warning having lain in wait fo his victim
Chris,
It may be my fault, but I am not following your logic. I am arguing the movement takes a robust public position on this. That does not incorporate admitting republican involvement, if there was no such involvement. It does involve a clear and unambiguous line on the issue of punishment beatings in general, and this one in particular.
For that to be in the least bit credible the movement needs to admit it was involved in such activities in the past, but that it is not okay now. It’s not a line even the toughest Republicans I’ve met wants to contemplate taking on up front. A spokesman with Army Council authority might circumvent any serious political damage to the party. But I don’t see an entirely fresh start without it. I may be being too short sighted on that, but that’s how it looks in the here and now.
In the end it is for the party to judge. I’ve simply argued above that such callous behaviour in the face of the family’s distress is causing your party severe damage in the long run. Did the party put the verbal boot into the grieving family? It may be a matter of judgement, but I would say yes:
“In the immediate wake of Quinn murder, Gerry Adams referred to accounts emerging from the family and others that Republicans were involved as ‘tittle tattle’. He then suggested this was the result of a dispute between diesel smugglers. His source: a few phone calls to some people in the area.”
Ultimately such statements just help corrode the quality of the brand.
steve, you can name the dead without fear of litigation.
Treanor tells the truth about the bad blood between him and Paul, Steve, why wouldn’t you? Not sure he’ll appreciate you calling him an “old man.”
27/11/07
QUINN SUPPORT GROUP CONDEMNS WINDOW BREAKING
The Quinn Support Group has condemned the breaking of a hall window at the Treanor family home in Cullyhanna.
“Everyone in this community needs to keep focused on the real issue, which is the brutal murder of a young lad by a dozen masked men wearing surgical gloves. The family called for no retaliation when the murder happened and repeated the call at the funeral, and as far as we are concerned the ban extends to window-breaking or other acts of petty vandalism.
“We reiterate our call for no public finger-pointing. All information should be fed into the Garda and police investigation only. The people who killed Paul and those who are now providing cover for them want to divide this community and turn neighbour against neighbour. Cullyhanna must stand strong and united.
“We commend Vincent Treanor for his honesty in admitting that he had what he delicately terms ‘words’ with Paul’s sister and a consequent altercation with Paul shortly before the murder. This is a considerable advance on his statement of 16th November. Its significance for the investigation, if any, is solely a matter for the police. Vincent Treanor and anyone else who feels intimidated in the wake of the murder will be welcome at our public meeting in Cullyhanna Community Centre tomorrow (Wednesday) night, as will all others who have suffered intimidation or attack in South Armagh.â€
As for the facts, what is in the public domain has been reported up and down the country.
But Mick is the truth not the ultimate unfailing defense against litigation?
We already know one such “altercation” to be a complete false hood so maybe the truth is not coming out because its just not true?
steve, your faith in British justice is touching.
Mick Fealty is going for broke to win this argument no matter what, and he seems to be winning on points after the bell for the final round should have long sounded.
His point, from start to finish, has been that SF/PIRA had engaged in such murders and denials in the past aka tarnishing the brand name – what loyalists, with British connivance, have made into an avocation for them ever since the St. Patrick’s Day raid – before the GFA was agreed to, and they seem to have engaged in it once again despite their denials in Quinn’s case,as the family and its supporters immediately pointed the finger at them without any evidence.
Despite SF/PIRA denials, they have been dismissed out of hand because of what any additional claim they may have made on the spir of the moment to justify themselves – what almost anyone would do under the circumstances – and then their loyalist supporters have gone on a spree to name all the supporting incidents which, it seems, support their claims.
And for anyone, especially Chris Gaskins, to keep this vigilantism under some kind of control, he only suffers indignities like he somehow condones the brutal murder, etc.
In sum, this is the verbal equivalent of what happened in violence to Robert MacCartney after the knife-wielding Brendan Devine started sticking everyone in sight.
The final score: Fealty and his team, 15; SF and assorted scum: 0.
Steve, you are forgetting the expulsion order. Paul Quinn told his father about the expulsion order and was wary and afraid because of it. That is why his attackers went to the trouble of forcing lads he knew well to get him out to the shed at Tullycoora.
Unless, Steve, you are suggesting to us Paul Quinn made up the reports of the expulsion order to his own father in order that the ra would be framed in the event he was ever beaten to death?
It has been both sad and sickening to read the posts by chris gaskin all he has done is to convince me even more that they havnt gone away you know.It doesnt matter if young Quinn attended black masses the part time ex full time what ever ira thugs had no right to do what they done.If by any chance they didnt do it sure ol slab can serve them up to the psni compliments of his dear leader Gerry farkem all lyin btards.
Ultimately, it comes down to, following the revelations in theaftermath of the McCartney killing (and other similar events in recent memory), why those of us who, in the past, been willing to give PIRA the benefit of the doubt when these event bubble up, like a rat turd in a bucket of milk, why we should continue to do so.
Chris would have us believe that it is unfair that we should not believe PIRA because “they weren’t involved, honest, they really mean it this time, they said so!!”
In light of all the other times that they said they weren’t involved and meant it that time, I have to ask why should we drink the kool-aid this time? What makes this time any different?
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
Methinks the SF retreat into blog silence and/or drunken abuse is somewhat telling.
Astonishing that, in recent times, republican blogs have cited the perceived religious affiliation of posters as a reason why their views should be *irrelevant*.
I think SF in s. Armagh are in chaos because the love of killing by certain people can’t be restained. And I say this as someone who dosn’t vote for them but actually supports them in government.
And yet I’m abused.
Is someone off message here?
this Gaskin is a gas man!!! I wonder is he in S.F at all? I am surprised that S F would have such an amadan speaking publicly for them but,then, it’s ‘bring on the yuppies’ time for them. Poor Chris, so afraid of Mcallister. Old McAllister seems to have terrified S.F. so much that they cannot enter the same room as him!! Does he know too much?? Does he understand too well the way they have turned everything they used to believe in upside down and now they cannot face them? Maybe he knows who the big time smugglers in the IRA and S.F. are including the industrial alcohol brigade!!