God save The Queen (from offending Scots and Irish)…
THE British national anthem has been in the news again. Lord Goldsmith suggests it is not inclusive and should perhaps be changed. This – like the talk over a Welsh dragon in the Union flag - is to dissipate Scottish nationalism, although it appears the UK’s Scottish Prime Minister doesn’t mind the slur in the national anthem directed at his fellow countrymen (that bit about crushing rebellious Scots). Meanwhile, in Northern Ireland, ex-rugby player Trevor Ringland has been criticising Irish rugby’s governing body for opposing the playing of God Save the Queen before Irish international matches played in Northern Ireland’s Ravenhill stadium. The former Irish international argues that the rules were changed to prevent the anthem being played in Belfast, and that since northern unionists have always stood for the Republic’s Soldier’s Song in Dublin, there should be a reciprocal goodwill gesture (or at least an agreed single anthem).
Democratic, what you’re describing is a Catch-22. Try and work this out logically.
* Possibility 1: All-Ireland anthem (unacceptable because it’s “what nationalists want”?)
* Possibility 2: RoI anthem, UK anthem (unacceptable because it’s “what unionists want”?)
* Possibility 3: RoI anthem, agreed NI anthem (unacceptable because “nationalists are represented twice”?)
* Possibility 4: RoI anthem, no UK/NI anthem (unacceptable because it “lacks parity”?)
* For fullness – Possibility 5/6: no ROI anthem, UK/NI anthem (assume unacceptable because it “lacks parity” too?)
Which leaves us with …
* Possibility 7: No anthems …
Honestly, I think you are being too harsh on the “it what Nationalists want” arguments. An agreed all-Ireland or Northern Ireland anthem would surely be inclusive by necessity?
It nicely illustrates why an all-Ireland is an unworkable substitute for a united Ireland: the problem of two competing nationalisms linked to two separate and independent sovereign states is not resolved by the dismal expedient of pretending it doesn’t exist.
Nations invest in sports to promote their own national interests. That is why teams play at the Olympic Games under the banner of nations and not as individuals. The flag and anthem of the national team in sport is the flag and anthem of the nation – it represents the nation and not the players, and it is the nation’s choice, not the players. That is why, for example, Sven-Göran Eriksson did not demand that the Swedish anthem was played alongside GSTQ despite being a Swedish manager of the English national football team. It is only in NI that politics (as distinct from nationalism) enters sport, due to NI’s aforementioned dysfunction.
George is absolutely spot-on: we should not import NI’s dysfunctional behaviour into the Republic or pander to or appease it in any way, treating the pathology as though it was normal well-adjusted behaviour. There is an ulterior agenda to undermine Irish nationalism by conflating ‘parity of esteem’ with ‘parity of nationalism.’ In short, it is proffered that unionists and nationalists in NI agreeing to have equal civil and political rights should also translate as equality between nationalisms on both sides of the border, completely negating the concept of national self-determination and the nation state. Failing in their attempts to oppose the right of the Irish people to a nation state, they now seek an alternative of ‘sharing’ Ireland with the Irish as equal partners and owners despite being an irrelevant minority in the grand democratic design who are now far outnumbered by other minorities in the New Ireland.
This is why Lord Lard will inject politics into sport by saying: “I call for sanity by taking politics out of rugby by giving the two states on the island of Ireland equal status as agreed in the Belfast Agreement.” That’s the actual agenda here. It isn’t surprising that certain ‘republicans’ would play along with the idea of unifying the island under Her Majesty’s de facto dominion, completely missing the point of self-determination since they signed away their own right to it when they grandiosely renamed the Unionist Veto as the ‘Principle of Consent’ in the GFA.
George and Dubliner, this is our (southerners) dysfunction too. The Republic of Ireland does not have a rugby team. If you want an all-Ireland rugby team (accepting that a united Ireland is a long way off) then we are dysfunctional too for exactly the reasons you state. If Northern Ireland cannot agree on a song then “we” cannot agree on a song. If two songs are played before a game in one jurisdiction, but not in another, then that is, by definition, dysfunctional. We are dysfunctional. Learn to live with that fact.
Trevor Ringland is right on the money here – the Irish Rugby team is an all-Ireland team from both of Ireland’s traditions and it should respect the National Anthem of both parts of Ireland – whether it’s Amhrann na bhFiann in Dublin or God Save the Queen in Belfast.
The Agreement promised equality of respect for the two traditions, and this is a prime example of why many unionists are suspicious that the Unionist/British tradition can be equally respected in the all-Ireland context.
Given that unionist supporters of the Irish rugby team have stood for many years for Amhrann na bhFiann at Lansdowne Road, it was the least they should expect in return for their anthem to be respected at Ravenhill
- instead the current position of the IRFU writes off Ravenhill as “just another foreign rugby ground” which is ridiculous.
Hi Olifear,
I fully understand that what I described is a catch 22 – I hope that my previous postings had pointed out that I am not necessarily digging my heels in as it were – I am merely pointing out the inherent hypocrisy in some of postings here regarding the nature of mutual respect for our respective identities and it’s application.
To be honest my problem is more with the attitutes of some of our Southern cousins on this one. Dubliner’s recent contribution though beautifully written does not fill me with any optimism for the future either I must say.
If my expererience in Buenos Aires is anything to go by there’s a lot of foreigners who think “Ireland’s Call” * is* the national anthem
I think Trevor Ringland makes a decent point.
Sheesh again and again and again.
How about instead of a song we start something new with lambegs (for you lot), bodhrans (us lot) and a big bunch of travellers (the other lot) in a feast of fisticuffs for a purse of a conemara pony while the kiwis do the haka but nobody notices as the crowd demand blood?
We could gradually build it up with acts of machismo added as necessary, perhaps a few gaa lads with hurls bateing at the lads who throw the pole at the front of an Orange walk using the pole to hold them off.
It’d be great, honest would you even care for the game after that?
Irelands Call is maybe not the best, but it’s yours and mine and with that said the IRB can drop both anthems.
We need to be totally inclusive, ND.
What exactly is your objection to dwarf tossing?
The words are:
“Our camp fires now are burning low;
See in the east a silv’ry glow,
Out yonder waits the Saxon foe,
So chant a soldier’s song.”
I wouldn’t consider this to be racist. I think Peader Kearney uses the word “foe” here in the sense of an “opposing team”.
No need to change the words,just change the status of GSTQ.Make it the Royal anthem and then England, Scotland,Wales,and NI could each have their own national anthems.
*Maybe with a couple of changes to an old republican song*
It’s interesting that you describe On the One Road as Republican, I always took it to be one of the few examples of a specifically “Free State” song.
The lyrics appear to me to be telling the defeated Republicans to forget all that silly little unpleasantness of the Civil War, put it all behind us and work together with the new 26 county administration to build a happier Ireland.
I trust I will be corrected if I got this wrong.
Harry
“North men, South men, comrades all
Dublin, Belfast, Cork and Donegal
We’re on the one road swinging along
Singing a soldier’s song”
“Soon we’ll all be United Irishmen
Make our land a Nation Once Again”
Seems pretty republican to me.
*Seems pretty republican to me.*
Well vaguely united Irish nationalist certainly but like I said I understood the origins of the song to have come from the Free Staters after the Civil War, hence;
“Though we’ve had our troubles now and then
Now is the time to make them up again
Sure aren’t we all Irish anyhow
Now is the time to get together now.”
Like I said I may have picked that up wrong but if my memory serves me correctly I heard this theory from a Republican I knew who always dismissed the song as “Free State shite” and pointedly refused to sing it on the bus going to football matches.
Of course there is always the Sex Pistols version of God Save the Queen!
Irishmen claiming the anthem of an English monarch as their own is absurd, IMO!
Although the melodic and lyrical merits of the Soldiers Song maybe disputable, but is it the line about the ‘Saxon foe’ that offends Unionists, or the notion of an independant Ireland having it’s own anthem?
‘See in the east a silv’ry glow
Out yonder waits the Saxon foe
So chant a soldier’s song’
The poor old Jocks!…
Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring
May he sedition hush
And like a torrent rush
Rebellious Scots to crush
God save the King
…Unionists sing it out loud of course, as there is only one type of Scotsman too, the ‘loyal’ type!
Greagor
Schoolboy error: the possessive “its” doesn’t take an apostrophe.
Theo Logical
Shouldn’t the word Saxon be replaced by Cambro-Scoto-Norman to be more exact?
Gréagóir O’ FrainclÃn: …Unionists sing it out loud of course, as there is only one type of Scotsman too, the ‘loyal’ type!
When and where did you ever hear that verse sung?
Theo Logical, so we could replace the phrase “Saxon foe” on a case-by-case basis depending on who we play?
“Our camp fires now are burning low;
See in the east a silv’ry glow,
Out yonder waits the [replace as necessary] foe,
So chant a soldier’s song.â€
All we got to do is insert Saxon/Scottish/Cumbric/Gallic/Italic/Ozzie/Kiwi/Boerish/etc. in the relevant part. Hmmm … catchy.
Howdy Y’all
I’m back after a work-related absence from the site of about 4 weeks. Another fascinating topic about flags and anthems…(yaaawn).
By the way I’m STILL waiting for UEFA to pass their famous ‘ruling’ that claims their statutes carry more weight than international laws and treaties signed and ratified by sovereign countries, re NI-born players not being able to play for ROI. (Sorry I know it’s off topic but just had to throw that in there).
Zzzzzzzz
The Belfast Agreement has no jurisdiction over FIFA.
Olifear,
Why exert yourself finding an alternative to ‘Saxon foe’ when it does not feature in the national anthem?
zzzzz…and FIFA has no jurisdiction over anybody’s right to represent their own country once they qualify as a citizen and arguing from now until the end of time that they do will not change reality…zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz….
Um, yes FIFA does. FIFA is the governing body for football and makes the rules!
You’re just being stupid.
It is not going to far to say this is insulting to the British players and supporters of the Ireland team. Their reluctance to mix sport and politics has been taken advantage of. It left the field clear for some in the IRFU who were clearly less pure in their motives and so we’ve ended up in the embarrassing state of affairs over anthems we have today – in 2007, for Pete’s sake!
The lyrics of the anthems are neither here nor there, to be honest – the point is, the Soldier Song is the anthem of the Republic only and not Northern Ireland. The IRFU presides over a joint Irish and British team, not just a Republic of Ireland one. Either play both anthems and fly both flags or have none at all.
The GFA set out once and for all that British identity in Ireland is a birthright for those who claim it and as valid as Irish identity. The interesting (and worrying) thing about all this for me is that many quite mainstream Irish nationalists appear still to be in denial over this central and rather obvious truth. The rugby anthems issue is important because it reveals the need for us to remember what was agreed and remember to respect each other, not lord it over each other.
Willowfield, you’re as much in denial now as you were a month ago. Not that that’s too surprising.
Tell you what:If you’re so confident in your argument, how about if by the end of next year, NI born players are ineligible to play for NI, you forward me your bank account details and I’ll lodge 100 pounds sterling in there.As a matter of fact, I’ll make it easy on you. Give it 5 years. Actually, what the hell. Make it 10.
Anyway back on topic – Could NI at least profer a different anthem for when the Irish Team plays there, considering the Scottish and Welsh Rugby Teams have a separate national anthem, as do their football teams? Oh no, wait a second…that would be construed as ‘surrender’ I suppose…
Whoops! That sghould be ‘ineligible to play for ROI…obviously. My Apols.
Happy Xmas everyone!!!
“Anyway back on topic – Could NI at least profer a different anthem for when the Irish Team plays there, considering the Scottish and Welsh Rugby Teams have a separate national anthem, as do their football teams? Oh no, wait a second…that would be construed as ‘surrender’ I suppose…”
What would you have in mind Juan – something that has no association or mention of British identity I don’t doubt…….
something that has no association or mention of British identity I don’t doubt
Yes, like ‘Flower of Scotland’ or ‘Land of my Fathers’? Or can you not get up in the morning without your citizenship being referred to in some context first?
Juan Kerr
Willowfield, you’re as much in denial now as you were a month ago.
Correct – because I wasn’t at all “in denial” a month ago and continue not to be “in denial”.
Tell you what:If you’re so confident in your argument, how about if by the end of next year, NI born players are ineligible to play for NI, you forward me your bank account details and I’ll lodge 100 pounds sterling in there.As a matter of fact, I’ll make it easy on you. Give it 5 years. Actually, what the hell. Make it 10.
It is not an “argument”, but two statements of fact that (a) FIFA is not bound by the Belfast Agreement; and (b) FIFA makes its own rules. Whether FIFA retains its rules by which NI players are eligible for ROI, or changes them in order to stop NI players being eligible for the ROI, it will not alter either of these facts. So your point is a red herring.
Anyway back on topic – Could NI at least profer a different anthem for when the Irish Team plays there, considering the Scottish and Welsh Rugby Teams have a separate national anthem, as do their football teams?
It would be better if they just used Ireland’s Call and a neutral flag in both jurisdictions. But, failing that, your suggestion is valid.
Thought as much Dec…….
“Or can you not get up in the morning without your citizenship being referred to in some context first?” I refer you to most of the nationalist comments on this thread Dec – if you have some sense of irony….
the reason many unionists have a problem with
Amhráin na bhFiann, is not because it is sectarian, or bigoted, because GSTQ outdoes it in that respect. it is because they see the tune and indeed the flag as being IRA symbols of resistance, and as such they are both soiled in the eyes of unionism. so they tar the whole idea of Amhráin na bhFiann and the tricolour with the ‘evil republicans’ brush they so willingy use on many examples of irish identity. what they fail to recognise is the the atrocities carried out by the IRA, were not carried out by the whole irish nation, or elected government. So therefore to view Amhráin na bhFiann and the tricolour as such is being childish. by contrast, those whose oppose the playing of GSTQ and the flying of the union jack, do so with the historical fact that many, many more atrocities were carried out by Britain and its government under the union jack and anthem of GSTQ here in Ireland and elsewhere, and because of this, those who oppose the playing of GSTQ and the flying of the union jack are a little more justified.
I refer you to most of the nationalist comments on this thread Dec – if you have some sense of irony….
Democratic
The key word is ‘most’ here, I believe. Since you’re addressing me, it might have been more suitable to concentrate on my comments, especially the one that referred to Ringland making a fair point (despite the muddling of it by incorrect assertions). In previous threads I’ve supported the dropping of the Irish National Anthem at Irish Rugby matches. However why let the facts get in the way of a good MOPE…
ec – I sorry you think I am moping – from my point of view I merely want equality of representation – or complete impartiality on flags and anthem issues – I am happy to have it for Northern Ireland as I have said – I see absolutely no reason why any All-Ireland team/body cannot do the same. It appears that you share my ideal and I respect you for it – for others majority rule seems to apply when expedient.
“it is because they see the tune and indeed the flag as being IRA symbols of resistance, and as such they are both soiled in the eyes of unionism. so they tar the whole idea of Amhráin na bhFiann and the tricolour with the ‘evil republicans’ brush they so willingy use on many examples of irish identity. what they fail to recognise is the the atrocities carried out by the IRA, were not carried out by the whole irish nation, or elected government.”
Piss off —there was nary a squeek when the “gallant volunters” of the repupublic murder gangs were wrapping themselves in then tricolour and promoting A na bf.
The republic (government included ) armed and gave active support to am murder gangs until embarassed by PIRA actions like Enniskillen Tebane Warrington etc
Stick you flag and anthem where the sun don`t shine.
The poor showing of Ulster in terms of Irish team places make this a non issue. If we ever return to the days of 6/7/8 ulster prods on the Irish team then the issue may arise again. In these circumstances I would hope they would rerun the Ravenhill circus of the 50`s but this time the prods should refuse to take the field if A na bf is played
“The republic (government included ) armed and gave active support to am murder gangs until embarassed by PIRA actions like Enniskillen Tebane Warrington etc”
Any proof of this, Barnshee? The IRA only ever had a tiny amount of support from people in the Republic, like they only ever had less than a third of nationalists in NI supporting them.
If you’re referring to the arms trial as proof of ROI govt support, both Ministers involved were sacked at the time. Sinn Fein were banned from appearing on national TV and radio by successive governments during the Troubles.
The actions of the IRA were always loathed by the majority of people in the ROI, as election results have consistently shown. Still, nothing like facts to get in the way of unionist propaganda.
‘Piss off’
‘Stick you flag and anthem where the sun don`t shine.’ – barnshee
is this what passes for counter-argument?
Harry,
“Though we’ve had our troubles now and then
Now is the time to make them up again
Sure aren’t we all Irish anyhow
Now is the time to get together now.â€
Harry you could be right, but Iwould contend that this song referrs to the usual splits that have continually defeated Republicanism and is aimed at those who stood on the Free State side during the civil war.
Maybe so, Cut the Bull, but I did recall my Republican friend’s genuine dislike of the song so I gathered that he knew the specific origins of the song.
It certainly doesn’t read like a traditional Republican song, no reference to fighting for freedom or the enemy, indeed actually no mention whatsoever of fighting at all which is after all the mainstay of most other Republican songs.
Instead of fighting the song consists mainly of appeals to work together, forget the past, look to the future all that sort of stuff, which makes it sound like a Fine Gael manifesto set to music and leads me to believe that the song is indeed the “Free State” anthem that my did hard friend so despised.
Does anyone actually have hard information of the true origins of the song?
This is pathetic – now Unionists are beign called childish for not having any affinity for the tricolour – whereas Nationalists…..FFS!!!
At the end of the day – ignoring the highly dubious allegations of “childishness” or “Unionist
propaganda” (ha!) as irrelevant anyway – the fact remains – you will not find anyone from a Unionist background in Northern Ireland who will feel in anyway represented by the Soldier’s Song or the tricolour – and yes – you can thank militant republicanism for most of that!Nationalist feelings on this matter are of no bearing….and please don’t patronise with the honourable intentions of the green, white and orange, it changes absolutely nothing.
there are two sides to that coin Democratic, as i have pointed out. you must accept that to many irish both north and south, GSTQ and the union jack engender a far greater unease and even disgust, than Amhráin na bhFiann and the tricolour ever could.
I accept it totally Republicanstones – hence my whole argument….
Of course though it changes nothing – you have your dearly held flag & anthem and I have mine – play both or neither – that is the ultimate reality of the situation for me I’m afraid.