God save The Queen (from offending Scots and Irish)…
THE British national anthem has been in the news again. Lord Goldsmith suggests it is not inclusive and should perhaps be changed. This – like the talk over a Welsh dragon in the Union flag - is to dissipate Scottish nationalism, although it appears the UK’s Scottish Prime Minister doesn’t mind the slur in the national anthem directed at his fellow countrymen (that bit about crushing rebellious Scots). Meanwhile, in Northern Ireland, ex-rugby player Trevor Ringland has been criticising Irish rugby’s governing body for opposing the playing of God Save the Queen before Irish international matches played in Northern Ireland’s Ravenhill stadium. The former Irish international argues that the rules were changed to prevent the anthem being played in Belfast, and that since northern unionists have always stood for the Republic’s Soldier’s Song in Dublin, there should be a reciprocal goodwill gesture (or at least an agreed single anthem).
Sticking a dragon in the middle of it would throw out the symmetry of the existing design.
Besides, the rest of the flag is based on saints. Does St David have a representative flag?
http://pvcbanners.co.uk/world-flags/allflags/gb-w-std.html
Perhaps incorporate the black from St David’s flag. A black stripe could also represent a mourning for the eventual break up.
Wake up and smell the coffee. The union is a dead duck. People in the UK from a unionist persuasion are only beginning to cop on to this now but its too late. Ye have had more time than enough in order to be inclusive, democratic and representative of all the peoples who live under that jurisdiction. You had your chance to do this in Ireland’s north-east but failed miserably and only have yourselves to blame for the advent of the IRA and the subsequent rise in popularity and prominence of Irish Republicanism-Nationalism in Ireland as a whole. Ye are the architects of your own demise.
My understanding was the anti-Scots verse hasn’t been used since C18th.
“They contend that for years they have had to come down to Dublin to watch Ireland play and be respectful to the “racist and highly offensive” Amhran na bhFiann, which they say lauds the slaying of Saxons.” quote from Irish Indo article.
Always admired Ringland as both a rugby player and as a person – definately thought he was a lot better than “racist and highly offensive” Soldiers Song type comments (from Indo article).
Who really cares about which anthem the English adopt?
The word racist gets bandied about a bit too much these days. How can I be racist against a white christian as I too am one?
“Does St David have a representative flag?” Did St. Patrick? In any case, yes, St. David has a flag and, even more than “Patrick’s”, it too is a makey-upey to ape St. George.
Back onto topic, Goldsmith is barking up the wrong tree on this one. The verse referring to crushing rebellious Scots was an anti-Jacobite add-on that appeared briefly in the mid-18th century. It never made it into the ‘final cut’.
Ringland, on the other hand, has a point. Something has to be done about this in the interest of “parity”. Either scrap Amhrán na bhFiann or play God Save the Queen – or Londonderry Air. Southern supporters (or branches) have to grow up on this one. The reality is that neither Amhrán na bhFiann nor God Save the Queen represent the team playing the game.
Any chance of an (all) Ireland anthem – if it’s agreed that Ireland’s Call is just too crap to consider – and (for the first time in history) a flag?
At least GSTQ doesn’t label all the Scots to be crushed, just the quarrelsome ones like those murdering, treasonous Jacobites.
When the Irish team play outside the Republic of Ireland only Ireland’s Call is used as …. .
The Welsh could be using their heads here put a dragon in the middle of the union flag and when it breaths hopefully it’ll set it on fire.Is that the plan?
“[i]Wake up and smell the coffee. The union is a dead duck. People in the UK from a unionist persuasion are only beginning to cop on to this now but its too late. Ye have had more time than enough in order to be inclusive, democratic and representative of all the peoples who live under that jurisdiction. You had your chance to do this in Ireland’s north-east but failed miserably and only have yourselves to blame for the advent of the IRA and the subsequent rise in popularity and prominence of Irish Republicanism-Nationalism in Ireland as a whole. Ye are the architects of your own demise.[/i]”
Wise up Quagmire. The only reason there was a rise in popularity in Irish Republicanism-Nationalism was due to intimidation of those who were against it, both in the formation of the Irish republic and later in 1960′s N.Ireland. The Irish Republicanism-Nationalism movement preyed on the vulnerability of it’s own people at the outset, when all the men were off fighting in Europe for everyones freedom. Scavengers is all they are! Even when you managed to overpower those brave Irish men who stayed in Ireland, you didn’t receive the welcome you thought you would get on Dublin city. You so called liberators were pelted with rotten vegetables from your own Irish people in Dublin. It would take the Irish civil war and endless intimidation against those who were against the Irish Republicanism-Nationalism movement to finally bring about some form of government, although never democratic, more a dictatorship set-up to ethnically cleanse Protestantism.
you must be so proud!
Gonzo puts out a thread about flags AND anthems.
Slugger responses getting slack, I wonder?
Homeland - Not all Saxons – only the “tyrannical” ones. In any case, references to “Sons of the Gael” and “Men of the Pale” fighting together seems to have run right over your head. At least, you’ll be happy to know that the Irish-language version (invariably the version sung) makes no reference to the slaying of Saxons, but does make sure that Gaels and “Galls” are remain where they are, happily fighting side-by-side for each other’s mutual freedom.
Maybe with a couple of changes to an old republican song there may be a new sporting anthem which suits every body in the rugby fraternity as there is an acceptance that there is and most probably always will be an all ireland team.
ON THE ONE ROAD
Chorus:
We’re on the one road sharin’ the one load
We’re on the road to God knows where
We’re on the one road it may be the wrong road
But we’re together now who cares
North men south men comrades all
Dublin, Belfast, Cork and Donegal
We’re one road singing along, singing our Nations Song
Though we’ve had our troubles now and then
Now is the time to make them up again
Sure aren’t we all Irish anyhow
Now is the time to get together now
Chorus
Tinker, tailor, every mother son
Butcher, baker standing side by side we’re Irelands number one
Rich man, poor man, every man in line
All together just like “Auld Lang Syne”
Chorus
Night is darkest just before the dawn
From sporting achievement Ireland is reborn
Come on all ye untied Irish men
Now is the time to make a sporting nation once again
Chorus
Already got a wonderful flag of our own thanks.
Admire your efforts there, Cut the Bull, but I think its origins and a certain group of football fans’ bastardisation of it pretty much ruin its chances.
Ireland’s National Anthem consists of the AnB chorus only. So, inconveniently enough, the Saxon foe escapes without a mention. You’d think Trevor would have looked up the words before getting on his high horse. Maybe he’s one of those fellows who comes from beyond the waves.
Chorus:
Soldiers are we
whose lives are pledged to Ireland;
Some have come
from a land beyond the wave.
Sworn to be free,
No more our ancient sire land
Shall shelter the despot or the slave.
Tonight we man the gap of danger
In Erin’s cause, come woe or weal
‘Mid cannons’ roar and rifles peal,
We’ll chant a soldier’s song.
‘Alternative Ulster’ by Stiff Little Fingers should of course be the played at Windsor and Ravenhill.
Bit disappointed in Ringland swallowing the Saxon foe guff.
As for giving up on our anthem, just because the good folk of Northern Ireland seem to have a serious mutual identity problem doesn’t mean the rest of us have to hide ours under a bushel.
Rather than denying us our cultural reality, let those in Northern Ireland find an inclusive anthem and flag that represents all their citizens and we’ll play that too. They’ve already had 85 years, how much more time do they need.
Or is Trevor still wheeling out the Northern Ireland is “Simply British” line in the vain hope that we will eventually swallow it.
Whilst Ringland makes a fair point over parity, he doesn’t help his case by joining forces with the terminally ill-informed Lord Laird. Let’s clarify:
The National Anthem and Amhran na Bhfiann aren’t one and the same. The National anthem consists of only the chorus of Amhran na Bhfiann and is sung in Irish. The only reference to ‘saxons’ occurs in the (translated) 3rd Verse of Amhran na Bhfiann and I seriously doubt there’s anyone left on the planet who has ever heard this verse sung in public. In short, they’ve got the wrong song.
Ed Curran suffered from a similar confusion earlier in the year when he wrote this piece, complaining about hearing lyrics he hadn’t actually heard, though the more astute amongst you will note he doesn’t appear to highlight the unflattering bit about the Scottish* in his beloved GTSQ.
* Though as a previous poster pointed out it wasn’t aimed at all Scots, just the nasty papist-loving kind.
Free Agent,
perhaps Gotta Gettaway instead?
“As for giving up on our anthem, just because the good folk of Northern Ireland seem to have a serious mutual identity problem doesn’t mean the rest of us have to hide ours under a bushel.
Rather than denying us our cultural reality, let those in Northern Ireland find an inclusive anthem and flag that represents all their citizens and we’ll play that too”
Northern nationalists are already represented by the Soldiers’ Song George – they tell us this so often – why would they be represented twice? And expanding then why should Northern Unionists hide their identity under a bushel by not having GSTQ?
Dec: Though as a previous poster pointed out it wasn’t aimed at all Scots, just the nasty papist-loving kind.
Specifically, “rebellious Scots”
And, as another poster pointed out, that verse isn’t in the National Anthem anyway.
Hi Dec,
“The National Anthem and Amhran na Bhfiann aren’t one and the same. The National anthem consists of only the chorus of Amhran na Bhfiann and is sung in Irish. The only reference to ‘saxons’ occurs in the (translated) 3rd Verse of Amhran na Bhfiann and I seriously doubt there’s anyone left on the planet who has ever heard this verse sung in public. In short, they’ve got the wrong song.â€
I’m afraid it’s you who’s wrong on this one…
From the debate on the 1934 Appropriation Act, then Minister of Finance, McEntee:
“That a sum not exceeding £1,200 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1934, for the Acquisition by the State of Copyright in the National Anthem.
This Estimate is introduced to give effect to an agreed settlement to copyright proceedings initiated in respect to the performance in theatres and elsewhere of the National Anthem, that is to say, the “Soldier’s Song.†As some Deputies may not be aware of the position in regard to the Anthem, I may say that the music of the “Soldier’s Song†was informally adopted by the then Government as the National Anthem for use within the State in May, 1924. On 12th July, 1926, the Executive Council formally ruled that the “Soldier’s Song†should be used as the National Anthem of An Saorstát for all purposes at home and abroad.â€
Seems the terminally ill-informed Lord Laird is actually better informed than yourself. Perhaps you owe Laird, Curran and Ringland an apology…
Congal,
Ireland’s National Anthem consists of the AnaB chorus only. Doh!
Democratic,
we are talking about the anthems of the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland here, not the anthems of unionism and nationalism.
Why? because there is no “unionist” or “nationalist” anthem. They simply don’t exist.
It is for the people of Northern Ireland to finally find a “national” anthem that represents all their people, not to try stop us in the Irish Republic playing one that represent ours.
I see no reason for us to tolerate their dysfunctional attitude towards anthems by acting in a dysfunctional manner ourselves.
Hi BarneyBen,
I’m afraid not Barney. Double DoH! straight back at you.
From Dáil Éireann – Volume 609 – 08 November, 2005
Written Answers. – National Anthem.
“Mr. F. McGrath Mr. F. McGrath
323. Mr. F. McGrath asked the Minister for Finance when the national anthem composed by Peadar Kearney in 1907 will be reclaimed and the correct words (details supplied) will be inserted at all public and State occasions. [32906/05]
Mr. Cowen Mr. Cowen
Mr. Cowen: My Department holds the copyright in the national anthem. The principal reasons for holding the copyright are to ensure that it is freely available, to prescribe that performance fees are not to be charged or collected in respect of the use of the national anthem, and to ensure that it is not used in an inappropriate context and without due deference, such as to render it an object of scorn or derision. I am satisfied that the current version of the national anthem is the appropriate and correct interpretation of the words as composed by Peadar Kearney.”
Reader
Clearly you don’t understand the concept of irony, let alone the point I was trying to make Re: Curran criticising Amhran na Bhfiann on the grounds of lyrics it doesn’t contain, yet praising GSTQ and neglecting to mention the uncomplimentary remarks about the Scots in it’s fourth verse.
Specifically, “rebellious Scotsâ€
Should read: Generally, “rebellious Scotsâ€, specifically Jacobites.
CG
Feeble attempt and no apology necessary. That the Irish Government purchased the copyright of A Soldiers Song over 70 years ago is irrelevant. The Irish National Anthem consists solely of the chorus of Amhran na Bhfiann. Let’s just remove my name from the plaque of clueless Unionists and add in your good self. Hold on, you’re already on there.
The Londonderry Air is already used as the anthemn for the Northern Ireland team in the Commonwealth Games. All we need is the right set of lyrics. There are plenty of words in hymns. These are pretty cloying but they might suit the chastened new NI. I think the top “for I’ll be Here” note falls on “humble”.
We would be true, for there are those that trust us.
We would be pure, for there are those that care.
We would be strong, for there is much to suffer.
We would be brave, for there is much to dare.
We would be friend of all, the foe, the friendless.
We would be giving, and forget the gift,
We would be humble, for we know our weakness,
We would look up, and laugh, and love and live.
Congal,
only the chorus constitutes the anthem of the Irish State.
Sinne Fianna Fáil
A tá fé gheall ag Éirinn,
buion dár slua
Thar toinn do ráinig chugainn,
Fé mhóid bheith saor.
Sean tÃr ár sinsir feasta
Nà fhagfar fé’n tiorán ná fé’n tráil
Anocht a théam sa bhearna bhaoil,
Le gean ar Ghaeil chun báis nó saoil
Le guna screach fé lámhach na bpiléar
Seo libh canaÃdh Amhrán na bhFiann.
Or in English:
Soldiers are we
whose lives are pledged to Ireland;
Some have come
from a land beyond the wave.
Sworn to be free,
No more our ancient sire land
Shall shelter the despot or the slave.
Tonight we man the gap of danger
In Erin’s cause, come woe or weal
‘Mid cannons’ roar and rifles peal,
We’ll chant a soldier’s song.
But George – GSTQ IS the national anthem of NI.
Nationalists do not recognise NI as you know – It doesn’t matter what song they sing – Northern Nationalists will not have any of it – their anthem is the S.S. – which they say is an All-Ireland anthem – not saying I agree – but your argument is not with me it seems…..I think in your haste to have a dig you have tripped yourself up. My point remains why should Northern Nationalists be represented twice in anthem issues when they are perfectly happy with what you call the “Irish Republic” one. That only leaves the rest of us – and our anthem is GSTQ…
Conga,
Not sure what your copywright fetish proves, other than the Irish Government hold it. Please read the last line below, slowly and carefully….doh doh!
From today’s Department Of Foreign Affairs website:
The National Anthem, called The Soldier’s Song was written in 1907 by Peadar Kearney, an uncle of Brendan Behan. It was first published in the newspaper, Irish Freedom in 1912, but was not widely known until it was sung at the GPO during the Easter Rising of 1916. The chorus was formally adopted as the National Anthem in 1926.
All national anthems are a bit of bunk as far as I’m concerned.
But, it is the height of rudeness not to respect one when it is being played. In the case of sporting events you’re just respecting the opposing side, not anything more or less.
As it stands, N.I. continues to be a part of the United Kingdom, and I suspect fewer nationalists would object to GSTQ being played that a lot of people assume.
From the Horse’s mouth.
As it stands, N.I. continues to be a part of the United Kingdom, and I suspect fewer nationalists would object to GSTQ being played that a lot of people assume.
Joe
It’s not really about us (for once :]). I really can’t foresee 13/14 Irishmen standing to attention to ‘their anthem’ at Ravenhill as GSTQ is played. That being said, the Irish National Anthem should not be played at Lansdowne either ( and don’t start me on that other dirge) and I hope the practice is stopped.
I know it’s difficult, Dec, but have to agree that it should be both or neither. Can’t have the cake and eat it yadda yadda..
Democratic,
“My point remains why should Northern Nationalists be represented twice in anthem issues when they are perfectly happy with what you call the “Irish Republic†one. That only leaves the rest of us – and our anthem is GSTQ…”
Since when do you speak for those in Northern Ireland who aren’t unionist?
Why should unionists be represented by an anthem that only represents them and not all the people of Northern Ireland?
By that logic My Own Lovely Lee needs a rendition too.
There are two jurisdictions (not cultures) so at most we need two anthems.
What is so hard about finding an agreed anthem and flag for the people that live within the NI border?
It is for the people of Northern Ireland to bring along an agreed anthem for Northern Ireland (their jurisdiction) not for us to get rid of ours.
I quite like the Soldier’s Song and if it’s kept to the chorus and a present tense sporting context it’s entirely appropriate for a current “mixed” Irish team about to face the All Blacks (manning the gap of danger etc..); but that said I cannot be doing with the rhyming of “Ireland” with “Sire Land”.
To me it says a lot about Unionist identity when they insists GSTQ is thier anthem.I guess it proves that there is no sush thing really as an Northern Irish/Ulster idnetity.
Nah George – your shifting the goalposts mate – and you know it too. Tell you what – I for one am amenable to an agreed NI anthem regardless of the fact it means me hiding my identiy under a bushel (an idea that caused you so much trouble it seems)- I’ll make a deal with you – you ask a cross section of NI nationalists about an suitable anthem for NI – the vast majority will tell you only an agreed All-Ireland one or the Soldiers’ Song will do. But since you think I am speaking for them out of place ask them yourself….
Hi Dec/George/Barney,
Even between yourselves you can’t agree. Dec states…
“The Irish National Anthem consists solely of the chorus of Amhran na Bhfiann”
George seems to think it’s the chorus whether in English or Gaelic. Although somewhat ambiguously.
And Barney thinks that based on the Foreign Affairs website…
“The National Anthem, called The Soldier’s Song was written in 1907 by Peadar Kearney…The chorus was formally adopted as the National Anthem in 1926.”
So that’s the English version then.
So based on what you’ve said the National Anthem is either the chorus of the SS, the chorus of AnaB or both! Fekking brilliant! And George is the guy who reckons NI has to “agree” on a National Anthem to have it played at the Ireland rugby games. Seems we’ll have to scrap them all then as 3 nationalists can’t agree on their anthem never mind the whole of the RoI!
I have shown you transcripts of the debates where the National Anthem is discussed. Only the SS is mentioned. Not AnaB. Show me where those decisions were overturned. It’s easy enough done as it’s all online.
I really can’t foresee 13/14 Irishmen standing to attention to ‘their anthem’ at Ravenhill as GSTQ is played…..
Posted by Dec on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:03 PM
Are you saying that the 1 or perhaps 2 others arent ‘Irishmen’?
But George – GSTQ IS the national anthem of NI.
Nationalists do not recognise NI as you know – It doesn’t matter what song they sing – Northern Nationalists will not have any of it – their anthem is the S.S. – which they say is an All-Ireland anthem – not saying I agree – but your argument is not with me it seems…..I think in your haste to have a dig you have tripped yourself up. My point remains why should Northern Nationalists be represented twice in anthem issues when they are perfectly happy with what you call the “Irish Republic†one. That only leaves the rest of us – and our anthem is GSTQ…
Posted by Democratic on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:53 PM
Have you conducted a study of northern nationalists on this issue. Many have been happy to sign Danny Boy with there protestant neighbours down the years at boxing events. I would have no problem hearing Danny Boy or the green fields of France. You obviously know the my mindset as a northern nationalist better than me though. Any more of my demands you wish to fill me in on Democrat?
… so we’re agreed then! The Republic’s anthem (be it a Soldier’s Song or Amhrán na bhFiann) doesn’t suggest the slaying of Saxons, and God Save the Queen (or King as the case may be) doesn’t encourage the crushing of rebellious Scots. Happy days indeed.
Oh for goodness sake! Nonsense, the lot of it!
Dear God things must be slow over there when we are back on this one AGAIN surely we have enough of it during the Workld Cup.
In ROI, play an anthem agreeable to the vast majority of the people of ROI.
In NI, play an anthem agreeable to the vast majority of the people of NI.
Whatever that is, I couldn’t give a fuck. As long as it’s not the anthem of the UK, which is not represented at the match.
“Have you conducted a study of northern nationalists on this issue. Many have been happy to sign Danny Boy with there protestant neighbours down the years at boxing events. I would have no problem hearing Danny Boy or the green fields of France. You obviously know the my mindset as a northern nationalist better than me though. Any more of my demands you wish to fill me in on Democrat?”
Yeah I’m fine with that too pal – where NI is concerned – you are taking me up wrong – I’ll sing Danny Boy with you anytime to represent NI.
The problem arises when an all-Ireland angle is brought up that some people think it is acceptable for Nationalists to be represented twice – once by the Soldiers’ Song and again in a neutral NI specific anthem. My suspicious mind tells me that all this lateral thinking about juristictions and whatever is just a callous way of removing any representation of my British identity from the equation. The point of one team is to represent all the peoples’ identities equally – not fully one side and a heavily watered down version for the other. Sorry if I refuse to look at it the way you want me to – but that is the ultimate reality of the situation.
As for speaking for Nationalists – since it is offending I won’t do it again – I still would be interested to see how right I am though if their was a survey. I may even be tempted to wager.
“To me it says a lot about Unionist identity when they insists GSTQ is thier anthem.I guess it proves that there is no sush thing really as an Northern Irish/Ulster idnetity.”
Yeah it says they are Unionist – that’s all!