This is a strange one (subs needed). Yesterday’s Irish News carries a story about the make up of the Equality Commission. According to the raw figures in the Commission’s own report:
Staff Religious and Gender composition 1 January 07
Gender – Male 48 (34.5%) Female 91 (65.5%)
Religion – Protestant 49 (35.3%) Roman Catholic 88 (63.3%) Cannot determine 2 (1.4%)
Is the best way to overcome the legacy of conflict simply to forget about it? Author and journalist David Rieff spoke on this subject last week in a seminar at the Institute for International Integration Studies (IIIS) at Trinity College Dublin. Rieff has recently written a book titled, Against Remembrance (published in Ireland by Liffey [...] read our review »
The oft-quoted verse from the book of Proverbs, ‘where there is no vision, the people perish,’ (chapter 29, verse 18) opens a new book by Gerry O’Hanlon, A New Vision for the Catholic Church: A View from Ireland (Columba Press, 2011). That verse could be considered an apt summary of the current state of the [...] read our review »
Ring Chris Patten quick !
Mick
Surely the only new part to this story is the fact that there are quite so few men working there.
Everything else has been known for a long long time.
I’m sure it wont stop the Equality Commission ignoring their own problems whist criticising others though.
A look at those figues could suggest that protestant men simply aren’t interested in working for the Equality Commission. After all the EC can only employ those who apply and it’s application statistics i’d be more interested in.
Baconian approach: ‘Document everything’.
test.
It has been alledged, repeat alledged, by some that the Equality Commission is a decidely dysfunctional workplace.
Evidence? It might be worth pursuing the following in reaching any conclusions.
Number of complaints lodged at Industrial Tribunal and Fair Employment Tribunal against the Commission (ermm how much did cost ECNI to defend these cases?)
Comparative rates of male and female employees terminating employment with the Commission.
Gender and religous composition of senior staff, eg Grade 7 and above?
Conclusion? Draw your own.
Any tales from elsewhere? Do tell
Here’s one I posted earlier:
“WT, I’ve just had a quick look at the employment records of CBC and ECNI.
Craigavon borough is very similar to NI in that the perceived community background ratio for each is close to 55/45.
In 2002 and 2005 the CBC statistics are 60/40 and 60/40 whereas for ECNI they are 43/57 and 40/60.
Posted by Nevin on Nov 24, 2007 @ 07:02 PM”
43/57 > 40/60 > 36/64
So much for appointing Bob Collins, the former head of RTE, in 2005.
In terms of employment of Protestants the situation for the EC is deteriorating not improving.
The figures in 2005
Equality Commission for Northern Ireland
P 50 RC 73 ND 6 Total 129 [40.7%] [59.3%]
http://www.equalityni.org/archive/pdf/MonitoringReportNo16.pdf
Interviews should have absolutely nothing to do with being Male, Female, Catholic, Protestant, Dissenter, Muslum, Jew etc.
It should be one question. Do you worship at the alter of England. If yes then get out and go live there.
FFS ‘The Truth’ – if you’re going to troll with the same tedious crap, at least learn to spell first.
Repeat after me – A L T A R.
“A look at those figues could suggest that protestant men simply aren’t interested in working for the Equality Commission. After all the EC can only employ those who apply and it’s application statistics i’d be more interested in.”
If that wasn’t a defence for the RUC why is it a defence for the Equality Commission who should really be setting the gold standard in this regard?
Protestants have this assumption that the EC is working against them because equality in the NI sense will disproportionately affect the small majority in this local demographic context.
Why be part of something that places certain people on the backfoot, seemingly anyway, however much it integrates and does energetic work to achieve such social tolerance towards change.
DC, why not address the issue instead of just throwing accusations around about Protestants?
Why can’t the equality commission practice what it preaches?
One thing that you didn’t cover, Mick, is the total number of employees.
The breakdown may very well be statistically insignificant.
Sorry Beano thought that it was addressed by that comment re higher-politick come social interpretation of the EC by those certain people in N Ire who hold little desire for coming forward for positions due to said reason of perceived inequality.
Joe,
>One thing that you didn’t cover, Mick, is the total number of employees.
It’s at the top:
Religion – Protestant 49 (35.3%) Roman Catholic 88 (63.3%) Cannot determine 2 (1.4%)
So total = 139.
>The breakdown may very well be statistically insignificant.
Oh, it’s significant all right – excluding the 2 non-declareds, and assuming a 50:50 split by religion in working agegroup (hence overstating the actual Catholic proportion), the probability of Protestant representation being as low as 35.3% by chance alone is <0.05%, or 1 in 2000.
Pretty damning stuff.
OOps. Just woke up.
pretty damning stuff? perhaps if the EC has a policy of not employing protestants, but as Pounder said application statistics are needed to fully evaluate the problem.
I agree, Star, that that is statistically significant.
Well, the EC managed a net loss of 1 Protestant employee since January 2005, while employing 15 more Catholics on a net basis over the same period. Pretty odd recruitment pattern in a 2 year period, no?
the penny doesn’t seem to have dropped yet….you can’t base judgements on anyones employment policy without looking at the application statistics, you could go even further and study seperate applications against their suitability for the role !
And does the EC infact even inquire as to the religion of its applicants?
This would be patently illegal in Canada, what is the situation in nIreland? Are you allowed to ask?
You don’t have to ask about religion, Shawn. You just ask what school you went to. St.Malachy’s is a dead giveaway.
Most jobs ask about your religion now, Equal Opportunities Monitoring it’s called. Some forms I have filled in go as far as to say that your religious background will be inferred from your School, abode etc. and therefore if you give a false answer you will be found out.
As regards the application statistics, as Beano said earlier on – if it didn’t wash with the RUC and various others why should the Equality Commission (whose job it is to get thse things right) be any different?
Sorry should have added – this information is generally collected separate to the actual application itself. In NI, they generally ask about percieved background rather than actual religion – in other words, it doesn’t matter if you’ve never set foot in a church in your life, you’re still one or the other.
Because of the admitted discrimination in the past, I am, a little bit reluctantly, in favour of positive discrimination. As a previous poster mentioned, however, application statistics should be considered.
So, for example, if 40% of the applications for jobs come from Catholics, let’s say, then, so long as the legitimate requirements to carry out the job are met, them 40% of the jobs should be offered to the Catholic applicants.
A post supporting (reluctantly) positive discrimination, which then ends with “as long as the legitimate requirements to carry out the job are met”…go figure.
I have to say, I DO think the perception issue is a valid one. How many Catholics APPLY for posts at, say, Ballymoney or Coleraine Borough Councils? How many Protestants do likewise in Newry or Derry?
It is not only in their staffing that the Equality Commission may be showing a gender bias. I get the impression that they see gender equality as a one way street – they do not seem to be proactive on issues where men are treated unequally? For example, the Equality Commission, to the best of my knowledge, is not taking any action regarding the Governments gender biased domestic abuse strategy which is not complying with the gender ‘equality of opportunity’ requirement in Article 75 (1) (b) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998.
According to NIO statistics 35% to 50% *of domestic abuse victims are men yet:-
1. The massively gender skewed promotion of the Domestic Violence Helpline is only producing 2% male victim callers.
2. The so called ‘gender neutral’ Helpline is contracted to a ‘women only’ organisation.
3. Millions are being spent on emergency accommodation for female victims of domestic abuse and their children but nothing on emergency accommodation for male victims of domestic abuse and their children.
4. Only 1% of domestic abuse grant funding goes to male victims.
5. Abused men see the judicial process as biased against them e.g. the Probation Board has a programme called Men Overcoming Domestic Abuse but no programme called Women Overcoming Domestic Abuse.
6. etc etc
I doubt that the Equality Commission would be so inactive if female victims were being treated in this way.
* The Experience of Domestic Violence: Findings from the 2005 Northern Ireland Crime Survey Research and Statistical Bulletin 5/2007 Page 7, published on 5 July 2007 by the NIO, reveals that 35% of respondents, who claimed to be victims of domestic abuse, were men; and that other research findings suggest that the number of male victims may be as high as 50%.
I’m not sure what you’re implying, Raven.
Do you think that people without the necessary qualifications should get jobs?
As you say, go figure.
Christ
In Canada I am not even allowed to ask an applicant their age!
And their religion is of absolutely no interest to me
Shawn
Sure – but you hardly sit interviewing with a bag over your head!
A couple of points to ponder.
Not to play with loaded stereotypes, but certain professions seem to attract certain people or profiles of people. More men in Engineering and math, as a rule, with more women in the Social “Sciences”, etc.
Secondly, I would like to see these numbers broken out by level / position and department, with a special look at the make-up of whomever is doing the hiring and how applicants are vetted.
All the data presented above does is show that there is some imbalance in the totals. A more rational break-out of the data would yield some better information.
DC,
This topic comes up repeatedly and repeatedly I post the fact that the typical civil servant is a woman here, in England and in the South.
There is a simple fix but it won’t happen just as it didn’t happen for primary school teachers – raise the entry level pay rates.
The situation in the North is complicated by the fact that Catholic applicants in the North tend to be more highly qualified. Don’t know why that is but I have seen too many people with good degrees doing the filing to doubt it.
It would be interesting to know just what is happening to Protestants/unionists at school leaving age. Are they leaving or are they just not there?
“Do you think that people without the necessary qualifications should get jobs?”
No. It should be the main, if not only, criteria – in the widest sense of course, where I would add the caveat of experience too. There shouldn’t be anything other than “best person for the job”.
“So, for example, if 40% of the applications for jobs come from Catholics, let’s say, then, so long as the legitimate requirements to carry out the job are met, them 40% of the jobs should be offered to the Catholic applicants.”
Why? What if an extra 2% of Protestants happened to have better experience? Or indeed, a higher qualification? By luck…by chance…by virtue of the number of Prods who happened to see the job in question in Friday’s Belfast Telegraph?
Thinking through what you have put forward, the Thought Police would immediately be in to question why some poor bollix who had – for example – five years less experience than his Protestant counterpart, didn’t get the job. You know what the answer is? The answer is “cos he had five years less experience than the other guy.” NOT “oh we preferred a female prod for this post, so we f**ked yer man’s application into the bin.”
For those of you unfamiliar with some of the legislation and guidelines for personnel here, the “perfect” application form AS PRESENTED TO THE PANEL (i don’t mean as initially submitted here) should only have:
- a candidate number
- list of previous experience
- answers to questions which are experiential in nature (for example “give an example of when you have” etc etc etc) and which are relevant to the criteria for the post
- some supplementary questions like “when can you start”…”can you work the anti-social hours we mentioned in the job description”…stuff like that.
The public sector is trying to move forward to a point where you don’t get to know their name until they walk in the door of the interview.
Also there should be no reference to age in the material a panel is given; no questions about previous illnesses or periods of absence; no reference to where you went to school, only a list of qualifications and grades achieved; no reference to political persuasion or community background – this and other issues (disability etc) are covered in the Monitoring Form, which is removed by a Monitoring Officer, usually a person quite separate from Human Resources. (in fact, the applications are usually sent to them, rather than “The Personnel Officer”.)
For these reasons and more, I am gobsmacked at how the nepotism alleged in other threads on this site regarding Craigavon Borough Council quite managed to get so far.
But anyway, really, I have to say stick yer positive discrimination, regardless of how reluctant you may be in supporting it. Best person for the job does be my mantra, and I’m sticking to it.
And before anyone asks, no: I wasn’t in favour of 50/50 recruitment for the PSNI.
Oh and lib2016 – the Protestant/Unionist/etc exodus over the past fifteen years to mainland universities was recently noted in a Queens study which I will endeavour to find for you. They go across the water, and they just don’t come back. Go figure (Part II)
There was a Commission that preached
How equality just couldn’t be breached
“Be it gender or race
Then it’s a disgrace!
If equal numbers just cannot be reachedâ€
Perched up on their moral high ground
They stood there and gazed all around
And anyone out of line
Got a warning or fine
For, on all such matters, they frowned
But like the pigs down on Animal Farm
They had a certain hypocritical charm
Their house, on inspection
Showed signs of infection
But Slugger…..soon raised the alarm.
Lack of male employees was lamented
But the Commission was very contented
For all the talk of fair deals
Those in lipstick and heels
Got most of their posts when presented
There weren’t so many Jills and Dianes
But plenty of……….Bernies and Annes
More young Kahlic fillies
Than Mervyns and Billys
Seemed to suit their fine equality plans
Just like Napoleon and Squealer of old
In that fine tale that George Orwell told
Equality’s fine and all right
But in the dark of the night
Its a warm dish that sometimes runs cold
In my last post, the verses were not properly separated. Here is the adjusted version.
There was a Commission that preached
How equality just couldn’t be breached
“Be it gender or race
Then it’s a disgrace!
If equal numbers just cannot be reachedâ€
Perched up on their moral high ground
They stood there and gazed all around
And anyone out of line
Got a warning or fine
For, on all such matters, they frowned
But like the pigs down on Animal Farm
They had a certain hypocritical charm
Their house, on inspection
Showed signs of infection
But Slugger…..soon raised the alarm.
Lack of male employees was lamented
But the Commission was very contented
For all the talk of fair deals
Those in lipstick and heels
Got most of their posts when presented
There weren’t so many Jills and Dianes
But plenty of……….Bernies and Annes
More young Kahlic fillies
Than Mervyns and Billys
Seemed to suit their fine equality plans
Just like Napoleon and Squealer of old
In that fine tale that George Orwell told
Equality’s fine and all right
But in the dark of the night
Its a warm dish that sometimes runs cold
It’s a bad stat and a reoccurring one. Why are men and Protestants so underrepresented in the Equality Commission? Come to think of it.. all those ‘rights’ organisations are weighted towards groups that claim to be suffering discrimination….think about it…they are taking our jobs and raping our daughters. Too many blacks in those Ethnic Minority groups.
And don’t get me started on how disabled charities employ disproportionate amounts of disabled people.
“Come to think of it.. all those ‘rights’ organisations are weighted towards groups that claim to be suffering discrimination….”
Be interested to see how many people over the age of 60 are employed by Age Concern. I wonder how may of our MLAs advertised their “assistants” jobs too….you know…the ones they get the extra “allowances” for.
Gosh we could have a field day on this…
Thanks for your reply, Raven. You raise a lot of interesting points. I’ll have to think a bit.
Kind of connected…. Marty was complaining about certain companies in E Belfast not employing the right percentages
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=30160501&postID=4153557173222761214
The moral being…oh work it out yourself.
Dread Cthulhu ‘I would like to see these numbers broken out by level / position and department’
Heads (?) of Departments Page 49
Strategic Enforcement – Female
Policy & Development – Female
Promotion & Education – Female
Employment Development – Female
Corporate Services – Male
All are Heads of Departments – Pages 38/39
The simple reason for the catholic/protestant, female/male imbalance it seems to me is similar to the reason why turkeys might not seem too keen to vote for Christmas (or Thanksgiving, if you’re a goddamn Yankee) – a slight matter of vested interest in retaining one’s survival – actual survival in the case of the turkeys and survival of one’s traditional superior social status in the case of males and protestants (and doubly so for male protestants).
The central point here is the hypocrisy of The Equality Commission, a body that preaches to the rest of us about what it calls “equality”, but does not measure up itself to the “standards” it imposes on others.
Suppose (a )The discrepancies in gender and religion were reversed ie., women and Catholics were clearly under – represented and (b) This under – representation of women and Catholics was found in a company under investigation by The Equality Commission. If this occurred, The Equality Commission would be highly critical of the company. But when the exact same thing is happening behind The Equality Commission’s own doors, it seems to believe this is perfectly ok.
Personally, I don’t believe that there should always be an equal number of men and women, of Protestants and Catholics etc., I believe the best person should get the job. However, if a company with a majority of males in senior positions tried to defend itself by saying they were just the best people who applied, I don’t think this would wash well with The Equality Commission. So, if they want to apply these rules to others, they should apply them first and foremost to themselves. If they cannot do so, then they shouldn’t be imposing their “equality” on others.
Could it not also be a matter of attrition?
Say they did hire equal numbers of both communities but the protestant workers maybe have moved on to other opportunities in greater numbers then their catholic friends
As for the man / woman thing, these jobs I believe are mainly clerical and the female of the species is always over represented in the clerical fields are they not?
When it comes to simple servants working in offices I believe that women always out number men in the western world, it is certainly true in Canada
The employment stats in the EC look good when compared to some of the North South Bodies. Is it just me or is one community getting the shitty end of the stick in the new dispensation?
While reading through the Equality Commission annual report late last night I began to think I was becoming a bit paranoid and in need of a good nights sleep. But no, there they were again in the morning after a relaxing breakfast and again after lunch in town with my lovely wife. The photographs in the report are a graphic projection of the feminist ‘women and children’ mantra – with not a single adult male in sight. And as if to rub it in, the same offending selective use of photographs is repeated ad neuseam on every one of the 88 pages of the report. Now, before you scream out that I certainly am paranoid and need a permanent nights sleep to get over it, look again at the photographs yourself and imagine the reaction if all the 178 adult female photographs were replaced with 178 adult male photographs. Am I still paranoid?
I think we should take the Equality Commission toooooooooo ………the Equality Commission. Second thoughts, how about taking it to the ‘gender neutral’ Women’s Rights, drat, Human Rights Commission. No point, it would be much easier to simply rename it the Inequality Commission that it is.
“…is one community getting the shitty end of the stick in the new dispensation?”
Gerry Adams, referring to the loyalist community in his first speech at Stormont, asked much the same question though his point was more to do with the numbers from that community reaching third level education.
This isn’t about triumphalism but realism. Nowhere, least of all NI, can survive while losing a large proportion of it’s best and brightest. Surely there’s a post-grad somewhere who could sort out the statistics so that we all knew where the problem lies?
The problem may be that the number of children from a nationalist/catholic background attending state schools was underestimated at the last census, it may be that numbers of unionists are leaving, or it may be simply a difference in qualifications.
And let us not forget that there is only one Monopoly and Mergers Commission
“The Equality Commission for Northern Ireland is an independent public body established under the Northern Ireland Act 1998.
Our vision: The Equality Commission has the vision of Northern Ireland as a shared, integrated and inclusive place, a society where difference is respected and valued, based on equality and fairness for the entire community.
Our mission: To advance equality, promote equality of opportunity, encourage good relations and challenge discrimination through promotion, advice and enforcement.” .. ECNI website
Mission impossible? A challenge for Specsavers? It seems ECNI isn’t fit for purpose. Why haven’t the other so called promoters of rights issues taken ECNI to task? Perhaps the OFMDFM will issue a statement. Anyone fancy a humbug?