“I have spoken to the IRA in his area..”
On Newsnight tonight, BBC2 10.30pm, Liz McKean will have a report on political tensions following the killing of Paul Quinn. From the Newsnight blog
Liz MacKean has a report on increasing paramilitary violence in Northern Ireland. The story centres on the murder last month of Paul Quinn in South Armagh. Both his family and the Independent Monitoring Commission point the finger at members of the IRA but politicians on all sides reject the claims. We’ll also be speaking to Northern Ireland Secretary Shaun Woodward.
They’ve already spoken to the Northern Ireland Executive’s Minister for Regional Development, Conor Murphy, MP, MLA.
“I have spoken to the IRA in his area and I am satisfied with the assurances they gave me, very solid assurances, that they weren’t involved in his death,” [Conor Murphy] says.
Adds The BBC reports that more than 200 people attended a public meeting tonight in Cullyhanna.
Update In the Newsnight report, available here [RealPlayer file], according to Conor Murphy, MP, MLA, the Provisional IRA is in the process of “requires a managed transition”.And From today’s Irish Times [subs req]
Mr Murphy yesterday evening called on Mr McAllister and the Quinn support group to “take decisive action” to end the campaign of “violence and intimidation” against Mr Treanor.
He said people associated with the Quinn group had falsely accused Mr Treanor and his family of involvement in the killing.
Mr Murphy repeated his call for anyone with any information relating to the murder of Paul Quinn to bring that information forward to the Garda and PSNI.
Mr McAllister, however, rejected Mr Murphy’s complaints, saying members of the group were not involved in any intimidation or attacks, and that the group condemned such actions.
He accused Mr Murphy of trying to create a “smokescreen” to distract attention from the IRA’s alleged involvement in Mr Quinn’s murder.
“Conor Murphy is struggling to cope with the fact that the majority of the people of south Armagh believe in their hearts the IRA murdered Paul Quinn, and that sadly their MP is trying to give them cover,” said Mr McAllister.
is it likely that c murphy would say??……………. “i spoke to the IRA in my area… and ACTUALLY they did to it”
is the IRA a legal organisation now????? if conor was speaking to them.. did he pass on their details to the cops??
…………… legal according to who?
legal according to the laws of NI upheld by the PSNI< who SF now support
afaik the IRA (provisional) is not a proscribed organisation. If an organisation isn’t procribed; talking to them or even membership isn’t illegal.
Conor Murphy spoke to the IRA in his area???
Now as a republican who knows the crack about the complexity of things around the border I can tell you people clearly that the man MURPHY is LIAR!
Lets be clear:-
(1). No one moves in SA without the IRA knowing
about it.
(2). No one has the capability to abduct an
individual like his IRA friends have!
(3). No one has the capability to had out
punishment without Mr Murphys friends
being involve
& Finally NO ONE has the capability to put up a wall of silence up when the cops come enquiring like the FORMER IRA!
The people who killed Paul Quinn once fought for Ireland now they fight for personal financial gain.
Now if the sources I know in Mullabawn are correct then his murderer is out on licence having previously been jailed in Long Kesh – Again for Financial gain or maybe because it was then for Ireland he’s a hero?
Harry, old bean, when you don’t accept the right of the statelet of ‘Northern Ireland’ to exist, it sort of hits your definition on the head. Any insurgent body of native Irish have more right to bear arms than the mercenaries of a foreign colonial power and what New SF do or don’t do is irrelevant to Republicanism.
Well then Rory off to the PSNI with you before you are accused of being part of the problem and not part of the solution
I see collusion is still rife in south armagh. This time between local government and the local ‘peacekeepers’.
‘They haven’t gone away you know’.
McCartney, Donaldson, Quinn… The usual pattern will no doubt return, whereby all will be quiet for 6 months, then a couple of the ‘lads’ will get a bit frisky and beat some other poor sod to death.
How can such a barbaric act in such a small community go unchallenged. Are SF actively on the streets in south armagh demanding justice? They are usually pretty good at running off a few flyers and getting the odd protest going, or would it be in their best interest to see this one getting swept under the carpet?
Frnak
“afaik the IRA (provisional) is not a proscribed organisation.”
Eh? I must’ve missed that announcement?
Shawn
Now I am not a tout and it is not my place!
But I am sure that many members of Provision Sinn Fein known the facts and surely as good wee servants of the British Crown it is their place to take the thirty pieces of silver!
[See commenting policy - edited moderator]
Terrorism Act 2000? Groups are only illegal if specified? If the ‘SoS’ recognises a ceasefire they become technically legal? Membership of itself isn’t illegal if not specified?
Maybe I picked it up wrong, I’ve had it in my head since Tohill that an IRA (provisional) membership charge of itself won’t get a conviction in a British court.
Isn’t it a big pity that the moderator has to step in and stop the felon-setting. You should be ashamed of yourself, Roger from Londonderry.What do you hope to gain by bandying names about like that?
Terrorism Act 2000? Groups are only illegal if specified? If the ‘SoS’ recognises a ceasefire they become technically legal? Membership of itself isn’t illegal if not specified?
Maybe I picked it up wrong, I’ve had it in my head since Tohill that an IRA (provisional) membership charge of itself won’t get a conviction in a British court.
IS THIS NOT GIVING THE PROVO’S A RIGHT TO CARRY OUT STATE (& BRITISH IF YOU DON’T MIND) TERRORISM!
BRIT LACKIES!
Pancho’s Horse
Get a life pal!
Paul Quinn was killed by so called reformed characters! (The clue to his identity was given earlier)!
Days leading up to his murder people were threatened, and terrorised about desiel smuggling and then this kid gets done in by thugs who all are Provisional IRA activists!
Remember the WAR MAY BE OVER but the thuggery goes on!
Rory
Just to clear up your position, you want the provos to do that which you wont?
Very ummm convenient for you
Shawn
I just would not except any better!
Nobody can be comfortable with Paul Quinn’s death but if you know everybody involved, maybe you should go to the PSNI or else shut your mouth. I haven’t a big pile of time for the Provisional Alliance BUT they fought and died for 30 years and if this is their chosen path then so be it. We have endured enough hurlers on the ditch in the past.
I can’t work that bit out either, Rory is against recognising British law in Ireland but seems to have a problem when he perceives others not complying fully with that law and even goes as far as trying to present a case that would be useful to the law he rejects.
Go figure.
Frank,
I think it was a real ira person that got off on that front. Although the legislation afaik now refers to any organisation calling itself the IRA or whatever. But didn’t when the people who got off were charged.
Frank Sinistra
I have a problem with the Hypocritcal Bastards like Conor Murphy who lie through their teeth and people like you and Pancho’s Horse who condone them!
years and if this is their chosen path then so be it. We have endured enough hurlers on the ditch in the past.
but Mr Horse,
if they do decide to down the road, well it is their own business, but why do they inist people inform to the cops on the activities of others.
they didnt have a high opinion of informers when they were in business.
Gari,
It was this that had me thinking being a member of a non-specified organisation wasn’t illegal of itself. What changed since 2004?
Harry,old bean, it’s Ms horse actually and I agree with you 100% but so what? The point I’m making is that Sinn Féin have tried one way and now they’re trying another. It’s their business. They have proved that they can endure. Their pedigree is intact as they see it. No one can challenge their chosen route.Leave them be. If there’s a viable alternative let it show itself and the people will decide if it merits support. And don’t presume that people who no longer support New SF are in the Real/Continuity camp.
wil shame fein be on the streets in large numbers demanding something is done like they wer when that poor old man in belfast mr holland was murdered.they took to the streets in force then but not a shame fein man to be seen when young quin was murdered.in my opinion there wil come a time when the ordinary person on the streets wil cop on to shame fein for who they really are and stop voting for them .what ever happened to tiocfaidh ar la i havent heard that war cry in ages.
I am puzzled by Franks claim that membership of the IRA[P] is no longer a criminal offense in the north.
The legislation that covered this offense in the north and south were very similar.[in the past] I do not believe they even referred to the PIRA/whatever but used the correct term Óglaigh Na hÉireann.
Indeed only a week or so ago in the south a volunteer of that organization was sentenced to jail time for membership, admittedly not membership of the organization we are debating.
Perhaps someone who knows this legislation could enlighten us here. i e is membership of Óglaigh Na hÉireann still a criminal offense in the north? I would be most surprised if this law was not still in force as the whole point of naming Óglaigh Na hÉireann specifically in the legislation, was because all volunteers believe they belong to the genuine article, as the organization they signed up to went by the name Óglaigh Na hÉireann, not provo, real or continuity.
Or perhaps Im mistaken here, but if not then it raises the question whether members of the Provos have been given an amnesty that has not been made public? It would also explain some of the incidents mentioned in this thread.
A very interesting thread.
I’m somewhat perplexed at your approach to this Rory perhaps you could clear it up?
You presumably would like to see justice for the Quinn family, [as would I], but tell me, how should this justice be attained?.
Shiould people go and give any information to whatever relevant police force they feel is neccesary and if they do does that make them touts?, [of which you have previously professed you're not].
Now, “as a republican who knows the crack about the complexity of things around the border” can you tell me if your “sources in Mullaghban” give the information that they obviously know to the relevant authorities? and, if they have, does that also make them touts?.
If they haven’t do you think that they should, in the interests of justice for the Quinn family, or, perhaps you advocate some other kind of justice?
On the other hand you could of course be encourageing other people to that which you wouldn’t be prepared to dp yourself, which, if that’s the case, you’d be a bigger hypocrite than those you accuse of the same.
what does conor murphy mean a period of managed tranition.
transforming into
1 full time commemoration organisers
2 discipliners of young lads in south armagh.
3 enforcers of gerry’s volksmeinschaft.
4 sntach squads to show dissenting chaps whats what.
???????????
Frank and Mick,
I looked the law up once I think a couple of years ago and it said any organisation calling itself the IRA. I think it was changed after the incident Frank refers to. I was probably mixed up about the Real IRA thing, though I do think that it was raised in defence of someone charged for that at some point.
The final sentence on the Beeb’s report pretty much says it all. “No-one has been charged in connection with Mr Quinn’s death.”
Forgive my naivite among the hallowed company of this thread, but I do feel we are getting away from the point. Murder was committed; a man died at the hands of (if I read correctly) up to ten men, armed with the most blunt and brutal of weapons.
And no-one has been charged. How far have we come in 12 years? Not very. I don’t live in the South Armagh area, nor am I from there, though I did spend a lot of time in it a few years ago.
My skin crawls at the thought of how this man died…at how the murderers made their plans in such a cold and calculated way…and at how a wall of silence, induced mostly by fear, has thrown itself up around the area.
Let’s not think about how stuff like this goes down with inward investors or tourists visiting the area. But more importantly, let’s not think (cos I ain’t seeing much evidence of it here) about how parents have been robbed of their son in the most brutal way over the head of something (it would appear) as meaningless as a cheap fuel fill for the boys’ latest Land Cruisers.
Only my tuppence worth – frankly I don’t care how Conor had a chinwag with. The whole episode, matched up with the other similar scenarios on both sides of the divide, is sickening.
Many Nationalists/Republicans were once prepared to turn a blind eye to Provo activity which added nothing to their stated claim to be trying to unify the country. Whatever about the correctness or other wise of this position surely there must be NO appetite for such activity post SF in government. Conor is as convinving as Widgery and appeared to be trying that old Widgery trick of blackening the name of victims. If slab and co do not remove thmeselves from the scene and pronto surely the SDLP will be the main ones to benefit.
Frank
That’s a very interesting argument re. the illegality or lack thereof of membership of PIRA. The Tohill case does seem to suggest that membership is not itself illegal, or at least provides a legal precedent that I’m sure some future defendants will be quick to avail of.
Has the British government quietly legalized the PIRA, and done a REALLY good job at keeping it quiet?
Why do people refer to the Tohill case when discussing the possible illegality of the PIRA?
Was anybody involved in the case given an amnesty to your knowledge?
Redhaze
Read the links. It appears that the charges against four men of:
a) attempted abduction; and
b) membership of a proscribed organisation
were dropped because:
a) Tohill testified that there was no attempted abduction and the four men were all just old mates that he was horsing around with; and
b) the prosecution’s case was to prove the four men were members of PIRA. However the defence seems to have argued that PIRA is not actually a proscribed organization, as per the relevant legislation. And the judge seems to have agreed with this.
Curious. I didn’t pick up on it at the time, I guess most people didn’t. But it does seem to suggest that PIRA’s legal status is shrouded in shades of grey.
“I have spoken to the IRA in his area”
‘just after I finishing shaving’ he should surely have added?
All
The Provisional IRA is definitely a proscribed organisation under the Terrorism Act 2000, and membership of a proscribed organisation is an offence under the same Act.
Section 3 of the Terrorism Act provides that “an organisation is proscribed if— (a) it is listed in Schedule 2, or (b) it operates under the same name as an organisation listed in that Scheduleâ€.
The list in Schedule 2 to the Terrorism Act includes “Irish Republican Armyâ€.
There was a question as to whether the “Real IRA†was proscribed as it wasn’t listed in Schedule 2 when the Crown Court referred the matter to the Court of Appeal and thence to the Court of Appeal (from memory in respect of a case relating to the Omagh bomb), but the Court of Appeal ruled that the “Real IRA†was covered by Schedule 2 since the proscription of the IRA predated its fragmentation, and therefore any group emerging from a split in a proscribed IRA must also be proscribed. Thereby all organisations – Official, Provo, Continuity, Real – descended from the pre-1969 IRA are proscribed. The Court of Appeal decision was appealed by the defendant to the House of Lords, but the Lords dismissed the appeal.
As for the Tohill case, I note that it was not the case that a court ruled that the PIRA was not proscribed: rather, the charges [of membership of a proscribed organisation] were dropped, apparently because the PIRA was not a specified organisation.
This means simply that the PPS chose to drop the charges, i.e. not to pursue them. It does not mean that the PIRA is legal.
Why were the charges dropped? The stated reason was because the PIRA was not specified. What does “specified†mean? Importantly, it does not mean the same as “proscribedâ€: while all “specified†organisations are proscribed, it is not the case that a non-specified organisation is therefore not proscribed. A specified organisation is a proscribed organisation which the Secretary of State has deemed not to be observing a ceasefire. (The purpose of specification is to identify those prisoners who are eligible for early release.)
I am unaware of any legal reason why charges of membership of a proscribed organisation should be dropped simply because the proscribed organisation is not specified. One can possibly infer from the dropping of the charges that it was not deemed to be “in the public interest†to pursue them?
Conor Murphy therefore has admitted to knowing and speaking to people who, by virtue of their membership of PIRA, are committing a criminal offence. Despite his professed support for the rule of law and the police, he has failed to pass this information on to the police.
Conor Murphy therefore has admitted to knowing and speaking to people who, by virtue of their membership of PIRA, are committing a criminal offence. Despite his professed support for the rule of law and the police, he has failed to pass this information on to the police.
Posted by willowfield on Nov 29, 2007 @ 11:00 AM
…and the DUP are content to continue to sit in Government with him.
It was heartening (‘better late than never’I suppose)to hear a member of the Quinn Support Group on BBC news say something like “we’re a bit ashamed around here that we didn’t speak out before about this kind of thing”. I remembered for instance the case in Newry in the 90s when the mothers of two young men threatened with explusion stood up to the IRA.The Newry public were found wanting then. I have always found it ridiculous that republicans talk up the cause for the civil rights campaign, but seem blind about injustices of intimidation (punishment beatings,exiling etc).
Connor Murphy claims he knows for sure it was not the IRA, I presume having a finger on the pulse of the local community, he has a fair idea who it was. Whilst this is not evidence in itself, it may encourage other people to co-operate if he was to say “I have passed on names of the suspects to the PSNI.”
At the end of the day I know its only theoretical discusion, as the PSNI and the “guards” probably know who did it anyway.
“guards” ???? why the speech marks???
oh and its gardai.
There was a lot of silence around the death of Eamon Collins and the barbarity of what hapepned to him.
Perhaps people are reflecting on the silence that they exercised over the years – now that they see how that co-operation of silence is now taken as a given. Its not an easy lesson.
Seems, in the past, it was only outsiders who thought: “that could happen to anybody”.
Now, its not just the outsiders who think that.
Conor Murphy therefore has admitted to knowing and speaking to people who, by virtue of their membership of PIRA, are committing a criminal offence. Despite his professed support for the rule of law and the police, he has failed to pass this information on to the police.
Posted by willowfield on Nov 29, 2007 @ 11:00 AM
Isnt Jackie Macdonald the admitted leader of a proscribed organisation in the papers every second week?
Willow how come you never advocate for his arrest. He freely admits to membership in a proscribed organisation
It is a lie to suggest that I never “advocate for” Jackie McDonald’s arrest. On the contrary, I routinely “advocate for” a zero tolerance approach to all loyalist terrorists. I am sure others here who have read my contributions to threads about loyalists can verify that.
Retract your accusation, please.
6 months ago I took the DUP to task in a pair of op-ed articles for Slugger and drew a lot of flak for my opposition to what everyone else said was wonderful. I said that it would be interesting to see how the DUP would react to IRA criminality, given that the DUP sold their flip-flop on the basis that republicans had now embraced the rule of law. Not surprisingly the DUP has done its best to play down recent events in south Armagh because to do otherwise would be evidence of its own bad judgment.
Here we come to the central contradiction in the power-sharing project. The project is built on “inclusivity”. But it can only survive if its supporters choose not to hold Sinn Fein politically accountable for the lawless actions of the IRA. The DUP is well aware that, for all Sinn Fein’s engagement with policing, the IRA is still criminally active. Everyone else knows that.
Willowfield,
Thanks for the info on the legality of the IRA, the situation is as I believed. In the Tohill case did the judge dismiss the membership charges or was it the state who decided not to proceed as that stage had not been reached. As you know precedent is important in English law.
Did anyone notice what amounted to an amnesty at the time or are we all as dumb as one and another.
In the Newsnight report Mr. Quinn basically says ‘who else could have done it in this area’. Does any reasonable person not think the Provos actually did commit the murder? It seems that unless you believe the “wee people” did it, you believe Mr. Quinn.
For those who missed it, an excerpt from Jim Allister’s speech on Monday night:
“Long held principles of the never, never variety have gone for the baubles of high, but shared, office; no terrorists in government was traded for an IOU in vanishing ink, meaninglessly called a “pledge of officeâ€; democratic government was surrendered for the absurdity of mandatory coalition, whereby you can never vote a party out of office, nor have an Opposition; and long-standing, principled rejection of the iniquitous Belfast Agreement was meekly given up for empty cosmetic tinkerings of no substantive value.
“As if all that wasn’t bad enough, the lowest bidder, IRA/Sinn Fein, was rewarded with the unbelievable give-away that they can hold onto the pride of their military structures, the Army Council, meaning that at every Executive meeting Mr P O’Neill is the unseen guest, and as a final sweetener they were given a pack of “get out of jail free†cards to be used when they feel the need to do the odd murder. One was just recently cashed in by the South Armagh brigade when they murdered Paul Quinn. Because of the sordid DUP/Sinn Fein deal and their mutual vested interest, the DUP, mark my words, will do nothing about that brutal killing, other than to twist and turn to pretend it wasn’t what it patently was, the IRA enforcing its writ in its territory. It was murder and it was murder by the IRA and because they’ll get away with it, it won’t be the last IRA murder.”
Too right.
New Yorker – who murdered Keith Rogers for example?
Does Jim McAllister support everyone going to the Gardaà and PSNI? If so why was he anti ceasefire and anti support for PSNI?
Ironic that he is representing the family when he is anti PSNI and SF have repeatedly called for everyone to give all information to PSNI and gardaÃ.
j
I am prepared to bet the profit on my next run with the tanker that no one will ever be charged with the murder of Keith Rogers, for the very simple reason that the defendant would have a first-class case of self-defence to offer. Rogers was part of an armed group intent on administering a Cullaville ASBO when he discovered that the intended victim was tooled up. Tremendous efforts are being made locally to damage Jim McAllister to that little bang-bang. this is the last line of defence now that the Paul-Quinn-is-a-diesel-king gambit collapsed so ignominously, while the even sillier notion that the Quinns are targeting the family which had an altercation with Paul never even got off the ground. It got killed dead last night when Briege Quinn called again for no retaliation and said that included window-breaking “which hurts us, hurts our campaign and hurts Paul’s memory”. So J, you and Conor are going to have to scratch around for other attack points. Beware the risen people.
Interesting to read of hardline, law and order, shoot to kill Unionists becoming oh-so-concerned about the killing of a Fenian by other Fenians.
No whiff of self-interested headline grabbing sordid little politics there, then.
MICK HALL
In the Tohill case did the judge dismiss the membership charges or was it the state who decided not to proceed as that stage had not been reached.
The charges were dropped, and hence they weren’t put before the judge.