Celtic fans reject Findlay’s pro-IRA stance…
AFTER the chair of the Celtic Trust opposed the appointment of former Northern Ireland Secretary and ex-Home Secretary John Reid as Celtic chairman for his “leading role in relation to what many believe is an illegal and immoral war”, Jeanette Findlay went on to defend the singing of pro-IRA chants on the terraces. Despite refusing to apologise, Findlay has angered many Irish fans of the club, which has also claimed her views are unrepresentative. Findlay’s timing couldn’t have been worse, as Scots united to Kick Out Bigotry on Tuesday.
Jackie
>>You asked for instances of IRA singing etc among Celtic fans.< <
No I didn't! I am frequently in the company of Celtic fans, our repertoire of Republican/IRA/Rebel ballads/songs are vast. Why would I ask for instances? Perhaps you were confused with me asking for instances of sectarian singing?
As with Realist Jackie, you are right we will never agree. Perhaps if you viewed the evidence you might understand that despite various reprehensible incidents(Realist) these incidents cannot define the whole. No more that the various murders carried by the British army can define their role in Ireland. Although some will argue otherwise, and I respect your right to hold these views.
I have been in Belfast quite a few times, both during and since the troubles, as recently as last summer in fact. Why?
Realist
>>I find (all)such chants offensive.<<
And I respect your views here also. I could argue that the songs of Loyalism, supporting Loyalist death squads should not be equated with Republican political songs or ballads. But what would be the use? :¬) However I have specifically mentioned throughout the thread the distinctly more distasteful Unionist songs that would not fall into either category. For example the songs about casually stringing Taigs up to the tune of the ‘Hokey, cokey’ and such like, i would not include the ‘sash’ or ‘there lies a soldier’etc….here.
Also this campaign by Rangers fans to falsely besmirch Jock Stein’s name is yet another example of Rangers fans disgracing themselves. I have frequently applauded the NI fans on here who are on the right road to ridding themselves of the past. Rangers fans by indulging in this, probably as a substitute for the songs that will get their club in trouble from UEFA(ie sectarian songs) show the darker side of society.
‘Also this campaign by Rangers fans to falsely besmirch Jock Stein’s name is yet another example of Rangers fans disgracing themselves. I have frequently applauded the NI fans on here who are on the right road to ridding themselves of the past. Rangers fans by indulging in this, probably as a substitute for the songs that will get their club in trouble from UEFA(ie sectarian songs) show the darker side of society.’
So did I just dream the long-term campaign of “Richard Gough – child molester” chants from the Parkhead choir then? Hypocrisy and cant is absolutely hanging out of you, PE me bhoy.
“However I have specifically mentioned throughout the thread the distinctly more distasteful Unionist songs that would not fall into either category. For example the songs about casually stringing Taigs up to the tune of the ‘Hokey, cokey’ and such like”
Prince Eoghan,
“Unionist songs”?
Let me assure you that this unionist would find such chanting to be absolutely disgusting – and I wouldn’t feel any less a unionist for feeling so.
Of course, I’m quite sute that you would find references amongst the more bigoted, sectarian, element of the Celtic fanbase to “soon there will be no Protestants at all” to be equally disgusting.
And…I won’t stoop to labeling such words as nationalist/republican songs – just merely, hate filled, sectarian pish.
[i]No I didn’t! I am frequently in the company of Celtic fans, our repertoire of Republican/IRA/Rebel ballads/songs are vast. Why would I ask for instances? Perhaps you were confused with me asking for instances of sectarian singing?[/i]
That’s the thing, for me it is one and the same. IRA songs=sectarian songs. Chanting pro-IRA songs, especially in a city that suffered at the hands of the IRA, is sectarian. And stupid, but that’s another argument.
I asked about Belfast, as I cannot comprehend someone being here and not seeing the IRA as sectarian killers, except if you stayed the entire time in Republican areas and didn’t venture out. Again, I am totally genuine in this. If anyone has seen the sectarian murder carried out and terror perpretrated by Republican (and for that matter loyalist) paramilitaries, my mind boggles as to the blinkers they have on as to not call them sectarian.
PE,
You know what they say: “in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king/prince”. Just because you are ‘an unrepentent fenian’, does not mean that is why you are getting a hard time.
You are getting a hard time from me because you’re refusing to argue your corner. The resultant ad hominem interference on good communication is dragging the level of discourse through the mire. In short, if you cannot afford some basic respect for your opponents whilst at least attempting to take their arguments to pieces, you can take it elsewhere. I don’t have time to police this site to ensure civil engagement.
I’m getting very close to zero tolerance for this kind of empty headed trollery…
Either I have missed some incredibly subtle distinction between these two sets of fans which justifies one or the other taking the moral high ground or this thread has degenerated into the usual crapfest of mudslinging between sectarian cretins.
Look guys, it is perfectly straightforward.
A love song to fascist gunmen is a deeply offensive form of music regardless of whether said gunmen also own rosary beads or Orange collarettes.
Football ‘fans’ braying hatred and spreading puke and piss in the streets are a bloody nuisance regardless of the colour of the scarves round their scrawny jakey necks.
Apologists for one set of so called fans are as colourblind, selective and as deluded as the apologists for the other lot.
In brief, Rangers and Celtic are the same thing, a useless,dangerous passion from another age and another country (if you are Scottish). The sooner the whole business is history the better.
PS An Apology.
I made a somewhat ill tempered suggestion a few pages back to the effect that the ‘Old Firm’ and their fans should be known collectively as T.I.T.s (Transplanted Irish Tribesmen). This was wrong and I now apologise to tribesmen everywhere.
‘Klingons’ would have been more appropriate, judging by some of the posts subsequent to mine, since they appear to have been made by people from another planet. Wait! If my recollection of ‘Star Trek’ is accurate, the Klingons had a moral code of some kind, something clearly lacking in the authors of these blogs. Sorry Klingons everywhere! I will try again.
My last attempt at a collective name for the whole ‘Old Firm’ shower – ‘metastases’.
Look it up!
Got to go. Have a job to hold down and am really rather tired of farting against thunder, which is what you are doing in trying to reason with such bigots.
Pps Enjoy your wallow in this sectarian mire, o brainless ones, history will overtake you shortly.
PE:
“Who was this Phil?”
It was Jim White in the studio with Charlie Nicholas.
PE:
“I am not going to waste any more time on this with you, say what you will as you are obviously on another anti-fenian crusade. You have been asked to substantiate your position over and over regarding the position you chose to take. Instead of putting up or shutting up you obviously want to go on the attack, however attacking me using a hard of thinking style to analyse my position only shows you up a bit.”
Okay. Here’s the bottom line. You either knuckle under, or you go. I’ve no preference either way. But if you cannot act civilly to others who do not share your view on this site, I will happily rescind your right to post here.
It’s not a great deal to ask.
“if you cannot act civilly to others ”
Prince Eoghan has been nothing but civil thro out these pages. He’s posted at great length in a perfectly reasonable manner and shouldn’t be censored / banned especially in comparison to some of the postings on this site and this thread.
With the wonders of cut and paste you might try and highlight any of the Prince’s indiscretions else I’ll consider you to Section31-ite. Please check and see how they might compare to other posts on this site before I burst my side laughing.
‘But if you cannot act civilly to others who do not share your view on this site, I will happily rescind your right to post here.’ – Mick Fealty
mick i agree with that greek guy above me, i would like you to show me where PE was uncivil?
can’t believe i spelled my own name wrong…..
While PE has his own views etc..on the old firm issue.
I don’t think he deserves to be treated in this way, he’s put forward a viewpoint, and while i don’t agree with some of it, he’s put it forward in a civil manner.
Totally over the top response.
Greek?
I’ve been called many things by many people but this is a new one!!
LOL
Prince Eoghan – my new hero !! (in the absence of MTC) btw MTC where are you ? Please come back … you’re needed here.
ooppps,
that should, of course, read MCT
Guys,
Let me just say that, I appreciate your concern. But this is private (if entirely virtual) real estate. I fork out nearly £100 a month, for the privilege of listening to some genuinely enlightening opinion, and, it has to be said, pretty vile sectarian bigotry. And it has been mostly anti Protestant, anti Unionist invective I have sustained, in the name of free speech.
You may not agree but I live with this site day and night. If you think otherwise please feel free to cut and paste the detail!
We have a few hard core stalwarts who put some cash in the box. I have to say that these are, as often as not hard core Republicans. But the ‘barfly idiots’ almost never do. Accordingly I feel absolutely no obligation to sustain nasty and personal invective. If you think that is wrong or anti freedom, virtual real estate on the net is almost endless. Why not stake out your own virtual blog-plot and give them a share of your own house-room?
This is a space that, ideally, and I accept it often falls far short of that ideal, is open to anyone who wants to think and be tested on their thinking: not bigots who think anyone who disagrees with them is mentally defective as PE has, perhaps jokingly, implied.
Stay or go. Make a case, or carp. This space is broad, liberal and accepting of criticism. But, if you don’t like it or need cold turkey, there is always the exit.
relax mick all we want is an example of PE’s ‘vile sectarian bigotry’, and ‘nasty personal invective’.
I am perfectly relaxed. But the burden of proof lies in the other direction. Exactly hard do you want me to work for -£100 pcm?
Why can’t you all be like David Vance and move on. Hate Muslims instead!
Its good to see that Section 31 is alive and well Mick.
Taigs to the back of the Blog………….
Mick – PE has posted here with passion on a subject he is clearly passionate about. I, for one, saw no “nasty personal invective” or “vile sectarian bigotry”.
I would hope that Prince wouldn’t be getting too much of a hard time for any conversions with myself (perhaps is isn’t) – although a couple of his postings to me were extremely patronising – I wouldn’t like to see anyone removed if their opinions are honestly expressed – although I firmly disagree with Prince acceptance of IRA songs at Celtic matches -I can see that he believes in what he says with no trolling involved (IMO). I do not believe any of his comments were intended to be anti-Protestant as such I must say – patronising perhaps – but not sectarian.
‘burden of proof’??? absence of proof more like.
Fair point Dem.
But if you track back through all my interventions on this thread (though to what end, given phil’s contentless sniping I am not sure) you’ll notice that all my interventions are reasonable appeals for people to attend to the detail of the argument.
In the end, I cannot argue the toss every time someone gets a little off the reservation. In future I’m just going to ‘Section 31′ as Phil quaintly puts it. They can appeal it afterwards, if they so wish.
Celtic Paranoia:
Stephane Mahe’s ordering-off at Parkhead in 1999; Jorge Cadete’s ‘goal’ disallowed at Ibrox in 1997; in 1952 Celtic came within one vote of being expelled from the SFA because it refused to haul down the Irish flag … the list of ‘injustices’ is endless and, although fhans attention to the past is admirable, it verges on paranoia. Still, as the saying goes, ‘Just because you’re paranoid it does not mean they’re not out to get you.’
Oopps forgot to add Mick Fealty’s SluggerOToole’s warnings / yellow card to Prince Eogan (a top notch Celtic supporter & debater) for daring to discuss The Bhoys on a Celtic thread like a ‘barfly idiot’ and costing Mick £100 per month.
Prince you should reimburse Mick for every penny you cost him!!!
the greek guy is right, lets have a whip around for P.E !
By my guest lads, if you think it will help!
Posted by anonymous on Nov 30, 2007 @ 03:13 PM
Paranoia means fear without foundation.
Two words:
Jim farry
Jeezo!
Been very busy this last wee while working and family commitments to the fore. Must say am pleased with the amount of backing I’ve had here. My own opinion is that people aren’t really so much standing up for me, but in part for surety(or hope of anyway)of being given a fair crack of the whip.
Mick
It’s pretty obvious that you don’t like my views, the way I go about my business etc…. Fair do’s! In the cold light of day however you must realise that none of my comments warranted the kind of response received from you. I don’t blame you for hitting back at my criticism of your comments, but please keep in mind I was merely criticising the criticism. By your subtle and not so subtle references to me not knuckling down, going elsewhere, trolling etc. I feel that by extension that you are exercising a kind of censorship that defies the logic of your raison d’être for running this forum. It really is a version of “I’m taking my ball”(from whoever displeases you). Sure Democratic had a point, I remember apologising to him for mis-interpreting his comments, which were to be fair quite easily open to such misinterpretation. That said, if you were to ban everyone who is on occasion pompous or patronising and the like, where would it end? I totally take your point about time and effort, and more importantly money. Could I get clarification on this;
>>In the end, I cannot argue the toss every time someone gets a little off the reservation. In future I’m just going to ‘Section 31’ as Phil quaintly puts it. They can appeal it afterwards, if they so wish.<<
This is a bit of fun surely?!?! It’s just that in light of my earlier comments about fair crack, the outworking’s of censorship etc.. Added to this the surfeit of us who suffer from the sin of actually having some pride. Well I for one would not be begging to be allowed back, but perhaps that is the point of it? Fuck me I hope not! I have said many times before that I enjoy the cut’n'thrust of this forum. I have taken your comments at times when I probably have been too much man and not enough ball. Should I not be allowed to stand my corner and express my views, then what is the point of it all?
On an important note. Why were those posts attacking me, so pointedly of a sectarian nature, and often pointing to child sexual abuse involving the clergy allowed to stand? This is not the first time I have asked this and would appreciate some word.
Phil, I believe you brought the Sky comments to our notice….
**If Sky TV presenter Jim White had been caught on microphone mocking the Holocast, 9-11 or the Afican AIDS epidemic, do you think he’d still have a job today? Or do you think Sky would have booted this ignorant arse out of the door as soon as his latest imbecilic episode became public.
On Wednesday night during half time of the Celtic versus Shakhtar Doneetsk CL match, Sky presenter Jim White was caught mocking the Irish Famine, which killed an estimated one million people.
Probably thinking his microphone was off, Jim White was heard saying, “oh here we go again, the tattie famine†as the Celtic fans sang â€The Fields of Athenryeâ€.
White’s partner in lunacy, Charlie Nicholas responded “Aye and they’re all eating chips singing thisâ€
It has been reported that Sky are “investigating†White and Nicholas’ comments.
On another note, do you think dear reader that Tosh McKinlay would have been invited to make yesterday’s Scottish Cup draw is the former Celt had in the past been revealed as an Irish Republican sympathiser?
Meanwhile the Celtic Trust’s Jeanette Findlay must be asking herself why Andy Goram, who was intimately associated with Loyalist paramilitary murderers, remains a Scottish media darling and assisted at yesterday’s Scottish Cup draw? **
“White’s partner in lunacy, Charlie Nicholas responded “Aye and they’re all eating chips singing this”
They were eating Kebabs?