Acts of ‘tourrorism’ on Falls Road…
THE Andytown News reports that “Protestant students” from the Northern Regional College on a sightseeing bus launched attacks on a Bobby Sands mural and memorial garden on the Falls Road. After an angry confrontation with the locals, the driver managed to get the flag-waving students back to the city centre before things spiralled out of control. But the next day, when the double-decker bus was carrying ‘normal’ tourists into west Belfast, it was the subject of what looks like a revenge attack. The net result is that the city sightseeing tours up the Falls have stopped, and quite a few tourists will be heading home with a less than wonderful impression of Belfast.
Insider
Don’t be an arse.
Harry, possibly I’ve misread your contribution so correct me if I’m wrong.
“I very much doubt whether you could call the Allies “terroristsâ€, to do so would be to turn language on its headâ€
I didn’t call the Allies terrorists I asked did you consider the RAF terrorists in WWII as they used the deliberate tactic of bombing non military civilian targets. Whilst not wishing to put words into your mouth your reference to Harris describing this tactic as terror would imply that you do.
“ But given the wholly militarised state of Nazi Germany and that German civilians were actively supporting Hitler’s warâ€
So that makes it okay to terrorise the entire population?, not to mention the countless innocent deaths. I wonder how many babies and children killed by the carpet bombing raids actively supported Hitlers war?
I could also swear that I’ve heard the second part of your sentence previously but it went something along the lines of “any Taig’ll do†however the justification was the same.
“The Germans initially launched the concept of area bombardmentâ€
Themmuns bombed Guernica so, that makes it alright to use the same tactics then?
Luciana,
You may very well love terrorists, I just love to see them die. Meehan was responsible for the deaths of lots of innocent people, I only wish he had died a more painful and horrible death. It’s a shame the bastard got away so lightly.
Meehan was responsible for the deaths of lots of innocent people.
Really, could you list them?
Gerry Kelly: “Martin sort of embodied what republicanism was all about.”
Yeah. Too right.
“Meehan was responsible for the deaths of lots of innocent people.
Really, could you list them?”
Nope. I also couldn’t name all those killed by Pinochet and Saddam but that doesn’t mean that they weren’t bad people.
Plus I don’t want to get RSI.
the whole country is full of bigots – what about the poor prob who ended up with 50 stitches up in stroke city:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/halloween-knife-thugs-leave-teen-needing-50-stitches-1210367.html
Nice ability to lower the tone. Anyway, your mistake is believing the two must be mutually exclusive. I never said it wasn’t a sound military strategy, nor would the military; that doesn’t change the fact that it is, by definition, terrorism.
Harry Flashman:
the Germans initially launched the concept of area bombardment
Didn’t the Brits do bombing raids in the parts of the Middle East they were in charge of (before WW2) ?
Poison gas bombings in fact CS. Organised by dear old Churchill.
On Martin Meehan, I think it’s fair to say that he embodied what provisionalism was and is about. But not republicanism as represented by Wolfe Tone.
*Poison gas bombings in fact CS. Organised by dear old Churchill.*
And our survey says, Pssssst! sorry Garibaldy, you lose. It’s a myth old son, never happened I’m afraid, sad old trope trotted out at regular intervals unfortunately not true, wrong, factually incorrect, D minus, try harder.
No boys terrorism is not attacking an enemy’s infastructure in time of war, which is what happened in Germany and Iraq, they were enemies in a time of war, clear enough so far?
Good.
I’m not entirely sure what Oglaigh na hEireann defined as an enemy of the Irish Republic but I’m fairly sure no stretching of the rules of war would have said the management, owners and staff of the Belmont Furniture Store were in any way declared enemies of the Irish Republic.
Sorry, Joe McDonnell was bombing non-involved, non enemy, non combatatants.
That’s terrorism, not war.
Harry,
A quick google turns up the fact that at most this is a matter of debate, not a myth. Some say there were gas bombings from the air, others Churchill only advocated it – citing the memo where he calls for the Iraqi tribes to be gassed – others that there were gas artillery shells used. So I’m afraid that we cannot say for sure. But seeing as I don’t think in American terms, can you tell me what a D minus translates too? I never understand the alpha, betta, gamma system either, so plain numbers will suffice.
What is clear is that there were bombing raids by the RAF, so CS is correct. Some say they were chemical, some don’t. You pay your money and take your pick.
But feel free to continue to try and successfully patronise me.
First up….were these little turds being supervised and if so why were they allowed to wear rankers tops to begin with.
Secondly….I heard they had to be escorted out of the area by local Republicans who were moved by the crying of those involved.
And last but not least, will it affect tourism ? Dont think so, they`ll just have to get Black hacks. In the long run city tours will suffer more than anyone,but give it two weeks and back to normal, whilst the West Belfast Festival will be as successful as ever.
I wonder how the Coiste people will respond to this?
Wow Harry that’s a fair jump from the bombing of Dresden being described by it’s chief architecht as terror to “attacking an enemy’s infastructure in time of war”.
There’s only one problem Harry, what about those tens of thousands of civillian deaths in the non military target of Dresden, first they were the German population supporting Hitlers war and now their relegrated to Nazi infrastructure?
Still suppose that anythig can be excused away if you have the required collatoral damage mindset.
Also Harry, as in my previous posting, I’ve heard the enemy infrastructure argument before…it was used to justify IRA bombs in England from The Baltic Exchange to Canary Wharf and evry Heathrow, Downing St and Manchester bombing in between.
Still thankfully the IRA’s civillian death toll, when they were attacking “enemy infrastructure”, was considerably less than the RAF’s eh?
That’s the problem having morals Harry you need to be consistant.
I love it, all these ‘Protestants’ and ‘Catholics’ kicking the religious shit out of eachother.
Even better all thise people who think British citizenship is somehow different from Irish citizenship kicking the nattionalist shit out of eachother.
Keep it up guys.
Meehan was a corner boy who joined the Provos because it gave him a chance to indulge in murderous sectarianism and pushing around others in his community who were his intellectual superiors (ie: basically anyone). Then spent the period of the peace process when it was clear a united Ireland was nowhere in sight droning on about his ‘heroic’ exploits in shooting Protestants at interfaces and putting on buttock clenchingly bad ‘street theatre’ about the ‘trevors’ (don’t those prods have SUCH funny names!). His piece de resistance (much more than any supposed pieces of resistance he engaged in) was declaring himself victor in the assembly election count, then losing on the recount. Laugh? We surely did.
A very small man indeed.
What a luxury to be able to sit here 60 or more years later and pontificate on the morality, or lack of, of decisions taken by leaders in the midst of a struggle for their country to survive.
How many of us can put our hands on our heart and say, unequivocally, I would definitely have done that or would not have done the other when the chips were down? Very few I would suggest.
These attacks on the RAF and discussion of the bombing of Dresden and the attempt to compare them to the IRA campaign are completely specious.
The IRA campaign was nakedly sectarian. Very, very rarely did it involve fighting of any sort. It centered on killing innocent people when the IRA felt like it.
Even the “economic targets” were frequently examples of murder. Frequently there was no or an inadequate warning. Blowing up furniture or flower shops is hardly an attack on “economic targets”.
Turning to the RAF and bombing. I know a little about this. My grandfather was ground crew in the RAF during the war and my step grandfather was a navigator on Wellingtons.
Ater the fall of France and before D-day the British and Americans had no real way to attack Nazi Europe other than from the air. As such bombing was the only possible option.
The quality of bomb sights was such that it was impossible to hit individual targets. The RAF discovered early in the war that few of their bombs fell within a mile of the intended target. That was the driver to having large area bombing raids. The USAAF 6th airforce tried precision bombing a little later and again had little effect despite the fantasies of the film Memphis Belle.
Very few planes were capable of any significant precision bombing apart from the Mosquito which had only a small bomb load and the risk to planes from precision low level bombing was extremely high.
Both the RAF and US 6th airforce suffered terrible losses from anti aircraft and fighter attack. RAF aircrew had the highest mortality of any British service personal during the war.
Speer and other German leaders after the war stated that the heavy bombing by the RAF and 6th airforce not only had disruptive effects on the German economy but also forced the Germans to devote many aircraft and 88mm anti aircraft guns to trying to stop the planes. Planes, guns and industurtal capacity which could have been used to fight the Russians on the Eastern front and later the Allies in France and the Low Countries.
The raid on Dresden is claimed to have cost over 100,000 lives. That is Soviet era propaganda. the real figure is less than 30,000. Still awfully sad but Dresden was a major rail centre for the Germans in their attempts to halt the Red Army’s advance and the Russians requested its bombing.
It was extremely sad that these events happened. However to compare these events in some moral way to the IRA murder campaign is repugnant not only to those who died at the IRA’s (and loyalist alphabet soup’s) hands but also those young men who flew the Lancasters and B17s so many of whom never came home.
Comrade Stalin,
Didn’t the Brits do bombing raids in the parts of the Middle East they were in charge of (before WW2) ?
Somalia as well, circa 1920 if I recall correctly.
Turgon
Tha last post of yours defending the carpet-bombing of Germany and criticizing the occasionally bombing of furniture shops was one of the finest bits of moral equivication I have ever read. Also, the bit about the IRA never really fighting anyone will no doubt come as a big surprise to the British Army.
Turgon,
Speer and other German leaders after the war stated that the heavy bombing by the RAF and 6th airforce not only had disruptive effects on the German economy but also forced the Germans to devote many aircraft and 88mm anti aircraft guns to trying to stop the planes.
I would hazard a guess the IRA may have had this in mind when they engaged in their own bombing campaign; disruption of the economy, tying up British military resources.
They learnt from the best, eh?
0b101010: “The purpose of shock and awe is to use overwhelming, and completely unnecessary, force on important targets early in a battle to attempt to destroy the resolve of the opponent. It is, of course, terrorism because the goal is to instill terror through the use of force for political gains. ”
The fact that there are “important” targets largely negates the terrorism charge. The presence of military leadership makes it a military target, especially in a tin-pot dictatorship where most of the generals are yes-men, as opposed to competent military commanders capable of threatening the current dictator.
Likewise, in an environment of hardened bunkers, there is almost no such thing as overkill.
how an attack on a terrorist mural has led to a full on dissucusion about carpet bombing city’s during ww2 is beyond me, ah well i suppose the lunatics truly have taken over.
I was just about to comment the same, Wayne.
The whole world is in a state of chassis.
Garibaldy: “A quick google turns up the fact that at most this is a matter of debate, not a myth. Some say there were gas bombings from the air, others Churchill only advocated it – citing the memo where he calls for the Iraqi tribes to be gassed – others that there were gas artillery shells used. So I’m afraid that we cannot say for sure. ”
And, yet, you presented it as fact… funny thing, that.
UFB: “that’s a fair jump from the bombing of Dresden being described by it’s chief architecht as terror to “attacking an enemy’s infastructure in time of warâ€. ”
First, UFB, there was critical infrastructure in Dresden as a railway center and as an industrial center, one deemed important enough to have targetted previously by both American and British bomber commands. The Germans themselves described it as “one of the foremost industrial locations of the Reich.”
Second, the tactics employed — HE bombs followed by firesticks — was nearly de rigeur by that point in time — blow the roof off, then burn.
Lastly, the Russians requested that Dresden be bombed, so as to prevent it’s use for a counter-attack or as a re-grouping area following a strategic retreat by German forces.
UFB: “There’s only one problem Harry, what about those tens of thousands of civillian deaths in the non military target of Dresden, first they were the German population supporting Hitlers war and now their relegrated to Nazi infrastructure? ”
You mean the people working in the city’s 127 medium to large factories and work-shops directly supplying the Wehrmacht? How about the people who operated and repaired the trains and railways?
Infrastructure, for good or for ill, requires people to operate it.
joe Canuck: “The whole world is in a state of chassis. ”
A chassis (plural: “chassis”) (IPA: /ˈʃæËsiË, ˈtʃæËsiË/) consists of a framework that supports an inanimate object, analogous to an animal’s skeleton, for example in a motor vehicle or a firearm.
Ahh Dread. You misunderstand.
That was a quote from Juno and the Paycock.
joeCanuck: “That was a quote from Juno and the Paycock. ”
Ah, the joys of a missing cultural reference…
reader
“So, who knows, maybe, in your world, the OO scores 100%, and SF and the GAA score 0%”
AT NO POINT did I say or even imply this – so I’d really prefer people to debate with me on statements that I actually made than nonsense that you just made up.
I have never had any association with the GAA and have never even voted for Sinn Fein. For the record, I don’t agree with certain things about the GAA – i.e naming stadiums etc.
It was you who said that “very few” OO members were terrorists. That is your opinion – NOT A FACT!.
As I pointed out, the OO DOES NOT HAVE A POLICY of expelling members who have convictions for “loyalist” sectarian crimes. If you can point to any evidence of them doing so, I’ll be glad to see it.
As I also pointed out, they openly admit that their rules DON’T PREVENT convicted “loyalist” terrorists from joining – even the most recent rule change didn’t deal with this issue.
The OO “Leadership” said it was very likely that the OO had former and current “loyalist” terrorists in it’s ranks.
Frankly, you have NO IDEA what percentage that may be, any more than I do.
However, if the OO is unwilling to take transparent action to expel existing convicted “loyalist” terrorists and prevent new ones from joining, then they can hardly expect people to take their (infrequent and half-hearted) condemnations of “loyalist” terrorism seriously.
The bottom line is that the OO has a major PR problem, and until they take clear, effective action to distance themselves from the impression that they are ambivilent (at best!) about loyalist terrorism, their public image, especially outside NI, will only worsen.
Dec,
Your point is falacious as it requires a number of pre conditions.
The Unionists and British have to be the equivalent of the Nazis in their behaviour. Whilst this is a popular theory with the President of the RoI and Father Alec Reid it is not a position held by many sensible people.
I am unaware of the extermination camps run by the Stormont parliament.
Second the furniture shops targeted by the IRA would have had to be making or selling weapons with which to fight and kill the Nationalist population. This seems somewhat unlikely.
Thirdly there would have had to be no alternative open to the Nationalist population other than to blow up furniture shops and kill people. The existence of the SDLP and indeed the fact that Republicans could and did stand in elections shows the alternative.
Fourthly the IRA volunteers would have had to proceed towards the furniture shop or other “legitimate target” through a hail of fire from its defenders. Furniture shops rather like Protestant shop keepers, armistace day commerators, Protestant workmen, Catholic mothers in West Belfast and indeed off duty policemen tended not to be able to mount any such defence.
Fifthly the IRA voluneers would have had to be fighting for a democratically elected government against a regime which wished to destroy their country. Again unless you accept the thesis that the Army council is the democratically elected government of Ireland this argument is rather flawed.
Tweedledee,
Your point are essentially a poorly argued version of Dec’s.
The IRA attack on furniture shops had little effect on the British economy, it did however, have a spectularly bad impact on the economy of Northern Ireland and so helped contribute to unemployement and social need. Of course the fact that increased unemployement and distress helped the IRA at the expense of the nationalist (and unionist) population is probably lost on you.
I accept the attacks on England may have had an economic effect (espically Canary Warf) but if you feel that killing a shop keeper in London who no doubt had nothing to do with Ireland is acceptable that is an issue for you. As I have noted above neither the Irish state nor the nationalist population of Northern Ireland seem to have been engaged in a fight for their very existence against a fascist dictatorship.
In terms of tying up the British military, the fact that there were few British soldiers stationed here (and none on the streets) before the troubles and the fact that most British troops have been removed from Northern Ireland now that the IRA are not killing people and blowing things up somewhat gives the lie to that analysis.
However, if Dec and tweedledee wish to live in the fantasy world that Northern Ireland before 1972 was actually a reincarnation of Nazi Germany and that post 1972 the Brits continued this system with the IRA heorically struggling to save the world for democracy: that is for them.
“Also, the bit about the IRA never really fighting anyone will no doubt come as a big surprise to the British Army.”
Yes Declan they did it once face to face and with almost equal firepower – at Loughgall and look how that turned out for the heroic soldiers. They were admittedly good however at sneaky booby traps and shooting unarmed men and women leaving churches and hospitals….but that’s why they come within the definition of terrorists and the Army don’t
Another of the achievments of the Soviet system – getting the Brits to bomb Dresden.Lol.
On topic – nobody died in this fracas – which is good surely.
Am i missing the point here or what? was it the brit RAF who flattened high street & a good part of the new lodge during ww2 leaving hundreds dead,injured,homeless etc… it must have been surely it couldnt of been ze germans fokkers.
Turgon,
“The IRA attack on furniture shops had little effect on the British economy”
Which reminds of the old line: How do you know a terrorist? He’s the one with the small bomb.
“However, if Dec and tweedledee wish to live in the fantasy world that Northern Ireland before 1972 was actually a reincarnation of Nazi Germany and that post 1972 the Brits continued this system with the IRA heorically struggling to save the world for democracy: that is for them.”
I haven’t expressed a personal opinion on the matter, not yet anyway, merely commented on the lack of consistency and intellectual dishonesty of your argument, as evidenced yet again in the above paragraph by attempting to ascribe a view to me that I haven’t opined one way or the other on.
Yes tweddledee the furniture shops were heavily defended and the IRA attackers were putting themselves at graet risk as they attacked them. As they did when they blew up Enniskillen war memorial, shot Douglas Derring, killed policemen etc. etc. Yes indeed there is no moral difference between the IRA and the RAF, how silly of me the IRA were also involved in a struggle to stop a fascist dictatorship controlling Europe. I am so glad we have moral guardians such as yourself to explain to the rest of us when there are moral inconstitencies in our own views.
The only thing that Dresden, etc has in common with the troubles in Northern Ireland is that in both cases we were fighting nazis. The German scum who tried to eliminate the Jews and the nationalist scum who tried to eliminate the Protestants. Thankfully we defeated both.
Sometimes Iwonder what draws people to countries were a process of conflict resolution is taking place.
Is it to help, to find out for yourself what went on and what is going on. I dont know.
Some tourists and reporters seriously worry me though,you know the kind that are starved of action and are really wanting to be in the thick of trouble if it starts.
This a song for them.
We’re all going on a Belfast bus tour
We’re all going on a Belfast bus tour
conflict resolution study, for a week or two.
No petrol or lighters on our Belfast bus tour,
no more worries for me or you,
for a week or two.
We’re going where the tri colour flies brightly
we’re going where the walls are red white and blue.
we’ve all seen it on the movies,
now let’s see if it’s true.
Every tourist has a Belfast bus tour
doin’ things they always wanted to
Getting hit with a brick, or grazed with a live round,
that would our dream’s come true
A war wound for me and you.
A war wound for me and you.
There is a blog I follow which basically suggests that information and technology is getting more advanced and ‘the system’ has lots more points to be attacked on.
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2007/11/journal-osw-in-.html
Basically saying innovation by freedom fighters in Iraq is 20 times faster than circa 1980s IRA.
Is freedom fighting getting more popular?
Always support the masses against the classes.
Turloch
A pretty sad state of affairs the entire arguement basically comes down to
Protestant “Well it was only a dirty terrorist painting whats the big deal”
with the retort
Catholic “You bloody started it and this is justification for setting fire to loads of orange halls before the incident even happened”
I would also like to take the time to mention the people outside the Sinn Fein office, who is anyone to say they where wearing poppy’s to start anything does wearing. just yesterday my party had it’s AGM, we had visitors from all over, but in particular in my thoughts on this, from the young PD’s some of whom happened to be wearing poppy’s because and I quote “men both sides of the divide put away petty prejudice, fought and died to defend the entire world from tyrany and oppression in the World Wars” who the hell are the republicans in this country to argue and politicise that and reduce it to more sectarian cock swinging? After all the guy who said that to me happend to be from the country republicans wish they lived in.
I would also like to reiterate the point made by another person here, what the feck where the bus company thinking letting passangers on in such a maner, when I worked in the hospitality trade we asked guests not to wear football regalia of the obvious type and to remember where they where, right between two working class areas of opposite belief. Don’t companies like the Bus tours have the right to refuse a passanger? Their negligence could well have resulted in other passangers, not involved in such blatant sectarianism, being hurt in the backlash. I guess sense isn’t as comon as you’d think.
What were you thinking, Pounder? This thread is supposed to be about Nazis, war, and bombing Dresden – why are you bringing up sectarian idiocy from Belfast?
Turgon,
Yes indeed there is no moral difference between the IRA and the RAF, how silly of me the IRA were also involved in a struggle to stop a fascist dictatorship controlling Europe.
You’re indulging yourself in moral relativism, and it is subjective, not objective, at that. Either something is wrong or it isn’t. Either it’s wrong to bomb civilians or it isn’t. It’s a simple black and white issue. Looking for shades of grey is just looking for shadows to hide hypocrisy behind.
I am so glad we have moral guardians such as yourself to explain to the rest of us when there are moral inconstitencies
Your moral inconsistencies are irrelevant to me, it’s your intellectual dishonesty that drew my attention to your post.
Isn’t that exactly what moral relativism is?
I disagree. There are no black and white issues.
Ob101010,
Isn’t that exactly what moral relativism is?
Of course. I was sloppily emphasising it.
I disagree. There are no black and white issues.
Rape? Child rape? Go ahead and make a case for when they’re okay. Sorry, but you asked for it.
Ask a rapist. I didn’t mean that I would defend everything you could throw at me, for I have my own set of morals, but that moral relativism is _real_.
Spide Untermenschen 2, N Ireland 0
Ob101010,
but that moral relativism is _real_.
Of course it’s real. Ignoring it, or dismissing it, is intellectual dishonesty. Thus Turgon will use the comments of a German officer, but dismiss that the IRA can apply the same logic, and moral relativism, to their own circumstances.
“from the young PD’s some of whom happened to be wearing poppy’s because and I quote “men both sides of the divide put away petty prejudice, fought and died to defend the entire world from tyrany and oppression in the World Wars†who the hell are the republicans in this country to argue and politicise that and reduce it to more sectarian cock swinging?”
Why don’t you ask the victims of British, French, Belgian, German and Russian imperialism whether WWI was about defending the entire world from tyranny and oppression? This is absolute, total and utter sickening and disgusting nonsense. Blind to the realities of that war in particular, and to the majority of the campaigns in which British troops have been involved since the end of WWII.
Let’s not forget that the poppy campaign this year is stressing how its money is going to current soldiers and their families. So not only does the bulk of the money go to people like the Royal Marine Commando photographed with the heads of locals in what was then Malaya, it is now being directed towards people who are part of a war that has massacred literally hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians. Volunteers. Who chose to be part of this “job”.
How are you try to say that wearing a poppy is an apolitical act. Lies. Utter lies.
A white poppy it is appropriate to call apolitical. A British Legion Poppy is very very far from apolitical.
Tourists are having a bad time in NI generally:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7080541.stm
Something extraordinary about this incident: normally the Loyalists look pretty damn stupid, let’s face it, it’s not hard. But in this case the nationalist scallywags down that road have been well and truly got the better of.
Get this. Because they were attacked by this bus by some Protestant kids on one day, the nationalist lads thought – in their staggering, stunted stupidity – that their attackers were still on board the bus when it came round on another! Priceless! If you were to attack people from a bus, you would sty on it all day and night and go riding around on it all the next day, wouldn’t you?! Oh lord.
It would be laughable, and is, were it not for the damaging effect had on visitors and tourists here.
How are you try to say that wearing a poppy is an apolitical act. Lies. Utter lies.
A white poppy it is appropriate to call apolitical. A British Legion Poppy is very very far from apolitical.
Posted by Garibaldy on Nov 06, 2007 @ 11:03 AM
Very good garibaldy, I didn’t think you were capable of it, you have criticised British imperialism. There’s hope for us all.