Orange hall razed in Republic…
YET another Orange hall has been burnt out in Ulster, this time on the other side of the border. It’s the third to be destroyed out of 10 in County Cavan over the last 20 years.
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Debating the Churches’ Role in the Peace in Northern Ireland
This morning’s Sunday Sequence featured a substantial debate (about 35 minutes into the recorded programme) on a new book,Religion, Civil Society and Peace in Northern Ireland (Oxford University Press 2011), written by sociologists John Brewer, Gareth Higgins and Francis Teeney. The debate was framed in an opening vignette by presenter William Crawley in uncompromising terms, [...] read our review » -
The Imperfectionists (Tom Rachman) – an insight into a newspaper that’s maybe not so fictional
‘news’ is often a polite way of saying ‘editor’s whim’ Given the shift from print to online and e-ink, maybe Tom Rachman’s The Imperfectionists was a suitable first first book for me to finish reading on the Kindle. Considering the economic pressures on the newspaper industry, his novel perhaps captures the spirit and soul of [...] read our review »
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“Unionism Decayed 1997-2007″ by David Vance: book review
I initially wrote this when the book was first published three years ago; whilst certain elements of it now sound dated, its basic premise that the period of 1997-2007 was a period of irreversible decay for Northern Irish Unionism can still be argued as a valid opinion. My own feeling is that it did indeed [...] read our review »
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but god forbid you’d be a prod playing it, especially if you happen to have relations murdered by IRA “herosâ€.
If the GAAs response was good enough for Darren, then it ought to be good enough for the rest of us. Also Dewi is talking about the OO officially kicking people out, the Darren Graham analogy comes to an end there. The GAA officially did nothing to offend him, fans were responsible for that. The OO equivelant (if a comparison were to be made) to the GAA fans would be the hoards of drunken dickheads that follow the parades.
Accepted in practice as GAA has been a nationalist body since inception few Protestants play (only in the North however) – Orange Order policies are sectarian – intersting question and don’t know answer do AOH have similar rules ?
PaddyReilly,
“Dawkins, the piece you replied to was by NMC, not me. I am in perfect agreement with everything you said on this thread.”
Gabh mo leithscéal, Paddy :0)
Naturally I condemn it but the fact you say its the 3rd time in 20 yrs demonstrates how rare it is for this sort of thing to happen in the South.
Dewi,
AoH is a Catholic Irish-American Association. It was imported into NI by Devlin, the constitutional Nationalist leader in NI in the early years of the last century as a counter to the rise of SF.
Can’t google or would find out myself but:
AOH origins not quite as straightforad TBOMK
Anyone know if they allow members to marry outside the faith ?
“The modus operandi of the OO is rather strange. They spend the month of July pissing everyone off, and telling all the Taigs and Chinamen to grow up and stop whining, then the rest of the year when it’s open season on their lodges doing the whining themselves. As I said once before, it would be better if they could just learn to torch their own lodges, and cut out the middleman.”
What a bunch of crap, or better still, fuel for the fire.
Just you keep on excusing it, do you remember what I said about bile & bitterness Paddy, you’d better get your bib, you are the very definition of a po-faced sectarian bigot.
“If you are an organisation that typically specialises in a pointless aggressive interchange, then you must take reasonable precautions to secure your property. With Orange Lodges, I’d say the answer is either develop the land around and assign it to reliable, resident Orangemen, or sell the lodge land off for redevelopment and rebuild it where such Orangemen are to be found.”
PaddyReilly, property developer, burn ‘em out & move ‘em into Orange ghettoes.
“The GAA officially did nothing to offend him, fans were responsible for that”
Hoards of drunken dickhead GAA fans & dickhead players, players being GAA members.
Dewi, the GAA constitution is pretty discriminatory if you happen to be a unionist.
Is the OO any more sectarian than the Roman Catholic Church or most other religious bodies?
Harry
“Leave out the psychobabble Sean, I wiped the floor with the last clown who tried that I assure you I can do the same with you. Stick to the issues boy.”
Yeah, clearly I was way off the mark with my comments about your vanity and preening narcissism!
Cromwell
Well I seem, succesfully, to have pissed you off, from a distance of several hundred miles, and without the aid of a Lambeg drum. But what I don’t understand is, if pissing people off makes you a po-faced sectarian bigot, why the Orangemen should escape that condmnation?
dewi,
The AoH in America is a very different organisation but as far as I know both cater for the ‘traditional’ Irish Catholic and wouldn’t be too bothered about whom one married.
I believe the old ‘ne timere’ thing is gone which would make that question even more irrelevant.
In NI there are rural areas such as Kilkeel, originally a unionist fishing village now facing the usual demographic changes and with the usual rows about territory, where they are involved in minor arguments about marches.
When I said I’d ban all parades I was serious by the way. I suspect first couple of hundred years would be difficult but it would work in the end. Thanks for stuff on AOH – I’ll have think on GAA.
“you remember what I said about bile & bitterness Paddyâ€
No, but I think you should know that like the Murphy’s, I am not bitter. The last Assembly election was probably the most enjoyable event of my life. The next one I expect to be even better.
Not the last time I checked, and I know a goodly percentage of them personally, but you’re welcome to prove me wrong. Masons, we have a handful, but Orangemen I have never encountered.
I mean, compare the principles of the OO with the principles of Alliance – it’s not a great fit, is it? There are plenty of Evangelical Prods in Alliance, but they tend to be of the decidedly non-Orange type.
Sammy Morse
Agreed the OO’s principles of patriotism, civil and religious freedom for all and freedom of expression would be an awkward bedfellow to the wishy washy principles of Alliance.
I find it impossible to believe that not one Alliance party member is is the OO, I know the Alliance is a very small party but come on. Besides I know several Orangemen quite well and I would not have known they were in the order until I seen them parade at the twelfth.
Outsider,
try reading some of the posts from nationalists, a large number of which condemn this. Only a small number (IMO your opposite number) are sufficiently bitter to say that this should continue or that the OO “deserves†it
NMC
And who is my opposite number? Besides who has came out and condemned these attacks without concluding their condemnation with an excuse for the attack.
Agreed the OO’s principles of patriotism, civil and religious freedom for all and freedom of expression would be an awkward bedfellow to the wishy washy principles of Alliance.
You start off with that (over the top nonsense when I wasn’t even trying to be rude to the Orangemen) and then flatly contradict yourself by saying:
I find it impossible to believe that not one Alliance party member is is the OO
Not great debating skills, here.
Do you also find it difficult to believe that it’s your mummy and daddy who put those presents beneath the tree on Christmas morning and not Santa Claus?
Anyway, it’s an irrelevant side issue. Nighty night.
Totally off topic but in Glasgow and:
1) Getting directions to the hotel the final instruction I had was “turn right at the kilt shop”
2) Had supper with PE and wonderful family watching Celtic beat Benfica.
3) Taxi driver to hotel was a Pakistani who lectured me in a broad scots accent about the effect of the Musharaff emergency on the North Western Pakistan tribal loyalties.
Life is sometimes wonderful. Nos Da.
Me for one, Outsider.
Outsider,
Seems to me you’re still confusing excuses and reasons.
Like several others here, I gave reasons why the OO had left themselves open to attack. They’ve made many enemies. This is a fact.
But mentioning the OO’s unfortunate behaviour is quite a ways from condoning or excusing the attacks.
“Has the GAA ever expelled anyone for marrying a Protestant ?”
No , but it did used to discipline those who played “foreign games”- y’know like rugby or football of the imperialist type.
Different organisation- different concerns- same prejudice
“No , but it did used to discipline those who played “foreign games”- y’know like rugby or football of the imperialist type.”
True – but does seem to evolve whlist trying to retain it’s historic origins. And doesn’t, as far as I’m aware, meddle in Party Politics. Orange Order fairly big and direect impact on Party Politics. Darth – I’m trying to understand and will read Dudley Edwards when I get home…
Joe I get your point about digressing. Just to understand why Catholics haven’t rushed to help rebuild these halls (which has been one of Mick’s issues over the last months) some tangential discussion justified ?
This Musharref bloke- arresting and beating up lawyers.
How come he’s gets such a bad press? I’d vote for that
Dewi,
I do believe that any discussion is worthwhile, even if it brings out the worst in some of us.It can’t but help in the long term to have some understanding of the beliefs and fears of “themmuns”.
I don’t think that this was the right thread to conflate the two issues. It somehow seems, to me, to lessen the condemnation of these attacks on property that probably seems like a second home to some Orangemen.
Some Orangemen are bad; the vast majority are not.
Same as the rest of us.
What I would like to add to this discussion is the fact that over 300 Orangemen were murdered by the ira during the troubles, people should remember this.
dewi,
Has the GAA ever expelled anyone for marrying a Protestant ?
No, but they have had members who were married to Protestants murdered. Although it was Protestants who murdered them.
Magnificent contribution there, SamMaguire. Care to postulate how many Protestants were killed by GAA members while you’re about it?
“What I would like to add to this discussion is the fact that over 300 Orangemen were murdered by the ira during the troubles, people should remember this.”
actually not strictly right- though the vast majority of the 306 we’ve identified were. Some were killed by the other republican terrorist groups, some by loyalists, some by police and army
“And doesn’t, as far as I’m aware, meddle in Party Politics. Orange Order fairly big and direect impact on Party Politics”
well we walked away from the UUP- and contrary to popular belief did not take a position on the GFA. And the Orange Order hasn’t summoned a Prime Minister of Northern ireland to Grand Lodge to explain himself since Brian Faulkner in 1970…
Another book I would recommend is a novel called “The Sons of Levi” set in Monaghan post-psrtition and is a sympathetic portrayal of Protestants on the wrong side of the border. Sorry- forget the author’s name
Sons of Levi by Daragh McDonald
Thanks – will try it.