IFA win ruling
Worth noting that the IFA have won their battle regarding the Republic’s team poaching Northern Irish players (already noted here). Blogging Northern Ireland football fans seem pleased. Most interesting is Beano’s assertion that this ruling is actually perfectly in line with the Belfast Agreement’s nationality provisions:
Under the agreement a person in Northern Ireland may “identify themselves and be accepted as” British, Irish or both. With the application of this principle in the Republic’s nationality law extending Irish passports to those born in Northern Ireland who want one, the real effect of the Good Friday Agreement seems to be that, in the same way as a British passport is not in itself enough to prove eligibility of a player for any single British national side, an Irish passport alone will no longer be evidence of eligibility for either Irish side.
janemac
So, don’t be worrying about Ahern/FAI getting themselves into trouble with FIFA!
I’ll try not to;)
A quick google shows that FIFA have indeed been taken to court several times under Swiss law.
But checking the Article 15 of the UN Charter on Human Rights you quoted:
Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
I can’t see how FIFA could lose on this, they haven’t deprived anyone of their nationality.
The other alternative would be, presumably, under Swiss Civil law and bearing in mind their own draconian nationality laws, I can’t see there being much joy down that road either.
According to FIFA, those residency and parental clauses are only relevant if the player has changed or acquired a new nationality.
Not so, Dec – as you’ve already been told – the criteria also apply to players “whose nationality entitles them to play for more than one countryâ€.
You should pay attention.
Don’t make me laugh, you’ve told me nothing. And you’re getting your criteria mixed up.
FIFA statute 15 deals with young players with dual-nationality being able to switch associations providing certain conditions are met: age, level of representation etc. Darron Gibson complied with these guidelines, Brian McLean did not.
FIFA Circular 901 deals with players assuming new nationalities. It lays down additional qualifying criteria in such cases: residency, parental etc.
There it is, laid out for you. I’ll not even mention the letter sent by FIFA’s Legal Department in October 2006 which informed both the IFA and the FAI that anyone born in the North could declare for either association. Whoops, I just did!
“Just one point: being assertive does not imply bigotry. I am an Irish republican. And what?â€
This isn’t the thread to discuss republican bigotry much less the history of atrocities it has been responsible for. However you’ll not need to look far to find my opinions on that subject and my disgust for the reverence they accord to their own divisive symbols whilst having only derision for the other community’s equivalents.
if FIFA has already sent a letter, and already ruled on it, then what are you getting so worked up about?
Willow, a quick google gives me two options as to how FIFA are not above the law as you seem to think. They are not answerable to anyone:
1. Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland has jurisdiction over violations of public international law
2. Court of Arbitration for Sport which has already dealt with FIFA business.
As regards expressions of identity – would it be safe for Billy & Kensei to express their identity by bringing a Tricolour to a football game to support NI at Windsor Park?
Brazilian born football players do not have any connection to Quatar. There is not a general ‘Right’ for all Brazalians to a Qatar passport, just the ones who can play football well. Completely different situation to Irish (NI resident) passport (ROI version) holders.
“If the player was not born in the ROI, hasn’t lived there for 2 years, has no parent or no grandparent born there then, as far as FIFA’s established criteria are concerned, he has none of the necessary connections.”
And FAI are awaiting a ruling that this is not necessary for NI born ROI passport holders!
I can’t see how FIFA could lose on this, they haven’t deprived anyone of their nationality.
First of all FIFA hasn’t done anything yet. Secondly, if they do rule against the FAI it will be under circular 901. Legally this means they are adopting the stance that Gibson changed his nationaility in order to become eligible for the FAI. Under international law (and FIFA Statutes,frankly) he did not. Simple, really.
Dec
FIFA Circular 901 deals with players assuming new nationalities. It lays down additional qualifying criteria in such cases: residency, parental etc.
I advised you to pay attention, Dec, but you’re not taking the advice. I already pointed out that Circular 901 isn’t relevant. I even provided you with a link to another circular using the same criteria which has nothing to do with people assuming new nationalities.
It’s on page 7 of this thread, Dec – a message from me to you, posted at 3.08pm on 26th October.
That’s your lesson for the day, Dec: pay attention, and stop banging on about circular 901.
Jane
1. Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland has jurisdiction over violations of public international law
Well, the UN Declaration, even if relevant (which it’s not), isn’t public international law – I already explained that it was merely a declaration of principles, not a binding treaty.
2. Court of Arbitration for Sport which has already dealt with FIFA business.
Would only be relevant if FIFA agreed that arbitration were necessary, in which case it would merely be determining whether FIFA statutes permit Northern-born Southern nationals to play for the South (i.e. the same issue FIFA is considering itself).
As regards expressions of identity – would it be safe for Billy & Kensei to express their identity by bringing a Tricolour to a football game to support NI at Windsor Park?
About as safe as someone bringing an English flag to support Scotland at Hampden Park or an English flag or NI flag to support ROI at Croke Park. Why do you ask?
Brazilian born football players do not have any connection to Quatar.
Nor do NI-born players without the specified connections to ROI!
There is not a general ‘Right’ for all Brazalians to a Qatar passport, just the ones who can play football well. Completely different situation to Irish (NI resident) passport (ROI version) holders.
But if your claims about the UN Declaration are correct, then any move by FIFA to restrict nationals playing for their country will be illegal. After all, according to you, not allowing someone to play for their country amounts to denying them citizenship – or the right to change citizenship.
And FAI are awaiting a ruling that this is not necessary for NI born ROI passport holders!
Yes, we know. And, as I’ve said many times, I think that is how they will rule.
Dec:
You’re still ignoring the FIFA rules dealing with those whose citizenship would entitle them to play for more than one association.
This includes: British citizens (which on its own would qualify a player to represent England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Montserrat, Turks & Caicos Islands, or the British Virgin Islands); Danish citizens (Denmark, Faroe Islands, and perhaps in the not too distant future Greenland); American citizens (USA, US Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa); Dutch citizens (Netherlands, Aruba, Netherlands Antilles); French citizens (France, Tahiti, New Caledonia); Chinese citizens (China PR, Hong Kong, Macau), and possibly some others.
There’s a very strong argument that, given that FIFA recognises Irish citizenship when it comes to playing for Northern Ireland, the above limitations also apply to that citizenship. I.e. Irish citizenship must be allied to birth, residence or brithplace of parent/grandparent in order to qualify for the Republic of Ireland, or Northern Ireland. Those are the limitations that apply to British citizenship.
janemac,
no, there is not currently a right for all Brazilians to have a Qatari passport, but Qatar reserves the right to grant this if they so choose.
Countries reserve the right to bestow citizenship as they see fit. Can you say that ROI’s blanket granting of passports supercedes Qatar’s selective passport granting. Where is the technical difference?
I don’t see it, and I feel that many ROI supporters are letting their emotions and their politics blind them to this.
Who do you think gives ROI this power above and beyond Qatar? If Qatar were to grant passports to all brazilians as of birth, would it make a difference to your opinion. Where is the line? That to me is the crux of the problem. It is; where is the line?
To me, the fairest and most consistent line currently applicable is to apply the birth/parent/grandparent/residency criteria universally; although, personally, I would prefer the parent/grandparent criteria dropped too.
“There’s a very strong argument that, given that FIFA recognises Irish citizenship when it comes to playing for Northern Ireland, the above limitations also apply to that citizenship. I.e. Irish citizenship must be allied to birth, residence or brithplace of parent/grandparent in order to qualify for the Republic of Ireland, or Northern Ireland. Those are the limitations that apply to British citizenship.”
In which case, a beautiful two step by the IFA. Honestly, I applaud them for it. Get Nationalist parties to make a fuss over the use of a British passport for NI then pull this one. I never understood the argument at the time, and still don’t. NI is a British team. You’ll stand for GSTQ and the Union Jack. If you baulk at getting the passport, you may have some questions to ask yourself.
In any case, I thought it wasn’t enough in itself – the criteria was British nationality and the Irish passport was really just a stand in for id purposes.
Quite interesting the stuff in Welsh press about the pressure for UK team in London olympics – would be interested if the Unionists posting here would mind being consumed by an Empire team or would welcome it ?
Willow
“Court of Arbitration: Would only be relevant if FIFA agreed that arbitration were necessary, in which case it would merely be determining whether FIFA statutes permit Northern-born Southern nationals to play for the South (i.e. the same issue FIFA is considering itself).”
I agree, what I want to point out is that FIFA has to be very sure that it is not leaving itself open to a legal challenge.
“About as safe as someone bringing an English flag to support Scotland at Hampden Park or an English flag or NI flag to support ROI at Croke Park. Why do you ask?”
So, I take it you would not think it would be a good idea to bring one. Though, I think you are wrong about Croke Park – I believe quiet a few Stormont banner flags had an outing to Croke Park this year and some photos of events are displayed on some website! Some comments as well to the effect that no one took any notice! By the way, I was at Bohs v. Sunderland soccer match this year and there was quiet a few England flags about and no one took any notice even though there was not a whole lot of fan segregation.
“Brazilian born football players do not have any connection to Quatar.
Nor do NI-born players without the specified connections to ROI!”
Well, that is where we disagree. A right as of birth is what I believe, which is supported by an international treaty between the Govs. of Britain & Ireland. Do Quater & Brazil have some sort of a Treaty about their arrangement?
But if your claims about the UN Declaration are correct, then any move by FIFA to restrict nationals playing for their country will be illegal. After all, according to you, not allowing someone to play for their country amounts to denying them citizenship – or the right to change citizenship.
Not too sure what you are saying here, but I don’t think I claimed that they were changing citizenship, or denying citizenship.
KENSEI
Interesting thing is that FIFA refer to NI as a British Association in its documentation. Supports the point that Irish passports are just used for ID purposes.
Hi kensei,
“You’ll stand for GSTQ and the Union Jack”
What’s the crack with the Union Jack bit?
You do understand that the Union Flag is not flown in any official capacity for Northern Ireland games….even tho the Union Flag is the official flag of the United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?
I’m losing count of the amount of times you’ve been told that.
PS. The move by the IFA to protect their interests, is very similar in many ways to actions by the FAI in 1950.
Funny how what goes around comes around, isn’t it?
“would be interested if the Unionists posting here would mind being consumed by an Empire team or would welcome it ?”
Oppossed to it dewi.
The IFA, in an about turn this week, have stated that they do not support the idea.
Don’t suppose there’s a whole lot of support for it in Wales either?
Going to the Spain game,Realist?
“Going to the Spain game,Realist?”
God willing, yes dubey.
Looking forward to a winter week in the sun, with my family and friends.
Why do you ask?
Bit bored by the way the thread was going-call it light relief.-what’s the away allocation?
“what’s the away allocation?”
dubey,
Standard 10% of capacity, as far as I know.
3,000 +
Should be plenty of GAWA WAGS in attendance for this one! That prospect is quiet scary on many levels
GAWA WAGS? Scary indeed.
Yeah, hope they won’t all be sitting in their Union Jack PJs drinking WKD.(SORRY, ONLY JOKING!)
Be prepared for lots of pointless, irritating comments from them during the game-bit like the Beeb commentary in fact.
Still by bringing them along, you’ll have worked up enough brownie points to get to the next few away games with Kate Hoey and the rest of the boys
“Be prepared for lots of pointless, irritating comments from them during the game-bit like the Beeb commentary in fact”
I know – I’m thinking of bringing my Union Jack earmuffs! (ONLY JOKING)
I hope the WAGs aren’t using the game as a pretext to allow them to bring back copious amounts of cheap, illicit ciggies from the Canaries to pay for Christmas and all that. Her Majesty’s customs will have to be notified of the potent risk of wholesale duty evasion from these flights-as a loyal british citizen, I’m sure you would agree with the need to protect the coffers of our Exchequer, Realist.
dubey,
I think that’s why many are flying in and out Dublin….The GAWA’s favourite airport.
Being a solid citizen tho, I will stick to my allowance.
Dec
‘Oh dear, yet another case where somebody appears unable to see a subtle difference between fans booing an opposing player (cf: every football match ever played) and when fans boo their own player.
I had really thought all but the most intellectually-challenged could make that distinction now’
Actually Dec, my original posting was in response to Billy’s paragraph where he said that it was a disgrace that fans do not leave their club prejudices behind when supporting international teams. Booing your own players is madness and yes, ‘disgusting’, but as has been pointed out is not just the sole preserve of NI. Booing individual players from the opposition team, particularly if you are Irish and they play for Rangers, is certainly not a sign of club allegiances being forgotten. I was interested to know whether Billy found the booing of individual players (not the whole team) who play for the opposition purely on the basis of the club team they support, was also ‘disgusting’.
So, try and keep up Dec – if you are going to question the intelligence of other posters, at least try and do so in a way which doesn’t make you out to be a moron with an inability to read between the most obvious of lines.
Christ,
The boring aussie’s back-just when me and you were getting the crack going, Realist.
“You do understand that the Union Flag is not flown in any official capacity for Northern Ireland games….even tho the Union Flag is the official flag of the United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?
I’m losing count of the amount of times you’ve been told that. ”
I get confused with the number in the ground. Is it the Stormont Flag? One is as bad as the other, really.
kensei -
“In which case, a beautiful two step by the IFA. Honestly, I applaud them for it. Get Nationalist parties to make a fuss over the use of a British passport for NI then pull this one. I never understood the argument at the time, and still don’t. NI is a British team. You’ll stand for GSTQ and the Union Jack. If you baulk at getting the passport, you may have some questions to ask yourself.”
It would indeed have been playing a blinder on the part of the IFA if it was deliberate. However experience of the IFA hierarchy suggests they have nothing like the intelligence or the nous required.
On the latter part of your paragraph, I think the NI team also has much to commend its recognition as an Irish team – the shirt, the badge, the fact it’s the successor to the Ireland team.
On a point of order, the Union flag isn’t flown by the IFA for NI matches. Indeed for home games they actually take down the Union flag normally flown by the stadium’s owners (Linfield FC). There aren’t too many (some, admittedly) Union flags flown by NI fans. (despite what Jim Gibney claimed in yesterday’s Irish News).
“In any case, I thought it wasn’t enough in itself – the criteria was British nationality and the Irish passport was really just a stand in for id purposes.”
I’m not sure what the full implications of FIFA’s decision last year were – whether they were recognising Irish citizenship as well as British citizenship as a qualification to play for Northern Ireland, or as you say accepting Irish passports as identification from people who actually had to be British citizens to qualify (as almost everyone born in NI would automatically be in UK law).
The odd thing is, given FIFA’s rule on nationalities that qualify a player to play for more than one country (like British, Danish, French or American nationality) we’re left with a situation in which -
- if NI fans want to make an argument under this rule, they need to make a kind of ‘nationalist’ argument – that Northern Ireland is a place where dual nationality applies, i.e. both British and Irish nationality are “its” nationalities and therefore Irish nationality qualifies a player for either team on this island.
- if RoI fans want to contest an argument made under this rule, they have to make a kind of ‘unionist’ argument – that RoI citizenship (i.e being an Irish national under law) is a phenomenon of the RoI; the nationality of NI is British, even if the RoI extends its citizenship. Irish citizenship does not show elibibility to play for NI, only the RoI; UK citizenship is necessary to qualify for NI.
“On the latter part of your paragraph, I think the NI team also has much to commend its recognition as an Irish team – the shirt, the badge, the fact it’s the successor to the Ireland team.”
The thing is, it and the support have spent so much of it’s history focussing on being British it lost almost all of that. The emergence of the Republic team through the 90′s merely put it in sharp relief. And it can’t pull at the heartstrings the same way the Republic can. It isn’t just the team – it’s the whole culture around the support that is much more in tune with Nationalism than NI can ever manage.
Doesn’t make it impossible to pull in support to a greater or lessor extent – never underestimate the advantages of proximity, for a start- but it makes it much harder.
“On a point of order, the Union flag isn’t flown by the IFA for NI matches. Indeed for home games they actually take down the Union flag normally flown by the stadium’s owners (Linfield FC). There aren’t too many (some, admittedly) Union flags flown by NI fans. (despite what Jim Gibney claimed in yesterday’s Irish News).”
Is the Stormont Flag used instead? That would be as bad.
“The odd thing is, given FIFA’s rule on nationalities that qualify a player to play for more than one country (like British, Danish, French or American nationality) we’re left with a situation in which -
- if NI fans want to make an argument under this rule, they need to make a kind of ‘nationalist’ argument – that Northern Ireland is a place where dual nationality applies, i.e. both British and Irish nationality are “its†nationalities and therefore Irish nationality qualifies a player for either team on this island.
- if RoI fans want to contest an argument made under this rule, they have to make a kind of ‘unionist’ argument – that RoI citizenship (i.e being an Irish national under law) is a phenomenon of the RoI; the nationality of NI is British, even if the RoI extends its citizenship. Irish citizenship does not show elibibility to play for NI, only the RoI; UK citizenship is necessary to qualify for NI. ”
De facto, that may be true. I think in strict legal terms, though, the latter argument is right. As many Unionist posters never tire of pointing out, Northern Ireland is British. And in terms of the state, that is 100% true. As much as I would love it otherwise, the argument is effectively saying NI’s sovereignty is weakened compared to the rest of the UK.
I still can’t get my head round the previous furore. It seemed to me to be panic in the IFA that they they might harm their image further with Nationalists (or Machiavellian brilliance), and base political opportunism on part of the Nationalist parties and the Irish Government – there seems to be no real thinking or intellectual basis behind it. It will be a real shame if that is the basis to prevent Nationalists playing for their first choice.