“If the IRA were corporately involved in this murder..”
From the Irish Times front page report today, on the investigation into the death of Paul Quinn in County Monaghan
Gardaí believe that a man beaten to death in County Monaghan at the weekend was attacked because he had recently been involved in altercations with a known republican in south Armagh and the son of another republican figure from the area.
And, with former Irish Labour Party Leader, Pat Rabitte, warning of a major political fallout if there was any involvement by the Provisionals, it’s worth looking at a couple of statements in particular. Firstly from DUP’s Jeffrey Donaldson in this BBC report
“If the IRA were corporately involved in this murder, that may mean that the executive is finished in its current form.” [added emphasis]
The other quote to note is in the same report, and comes from the NI Regional Development minister, Sinn Féin’s Conor Murphy.
In contrast to his statement noted yesterday, and repeated in this Irish Times report [subs req], that
“I do not believe that there is any republican involvement in this murder.”
The latest statement from Conor Murphy is
“I am confident that republicans who have been assiduously working on that project – to try and develop a proper and accountable policing service – are not engaged in any other type of activity whatsoever.” [added emphasis]
Meanwhile independent MEP, Jim Allister, has also commented [subs req]
Independent unionist MEP Jim Allister, who resigned from the DUP in March over the decision to share power at Stormont with Sinn Féin, said the Quinn family’s claims about IRA involvement could not be overlooked.
“The suggestion that the IRA killed Paul Quinn requires absolute clarity from the PSNI and the gardaí, with no phoney distinctions being made between ‘organisational acts’ and actions by individual IRA members,” he said.
And from that same report, the SDLP’s Dominic Bradley, MLA, is reported to have linked two other assaults in the area to the Provisional IRA
“The community in Monaghan and south Armagh must work with An Garda Síochána and the PSNI by giving them the information they need to bring these people to justice,” he said.
He believed that the dead man had been threatened by local Provisionals in south Armagh and that the IRA had also been responsible for severe beatings of at least two other individuals in the area.
Adds Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams, on Radio Ulster’s TalkBack today stated
“It will not emerge that the IRA was involved.”
Asked earlier in the interview why he was so certain that no republicans were involved “in any way whatsoever” he replied
“I have talked to one or two people in the area.”
And from the BBC’s Mark Devenport’s blog
Conor Murphy says he’s convinced republicans weren’t involved. But his former colleague Jim McAllister says Conor should have talked to Mr Quinn’s family before sounding so certain.
On the one hand the DUP will argue that they must await the evidence before jumping to conclusions. On the other, those of us who covered the murders perpetrated by IRA fronts like “Direct Action Against Drugs” know how reluctant the authorities can be in declaring clearly that the IRA sanctioned a particular crime when it is not politically expedient to make such a statement.
Comrade Stalin,
Maybe that’s because I have been busy urging Margaret Ritchie to with-hold funding from the UDA and then congratulating her when she did it? There are plenty of ATW threads on that topic and maybe you need to become a little better acquainted with what I say before wittering in glorious ignorance.
I chose to comment on Slugger whenever I want, on whatever I want. I have commented on the Clash thread for example, but previously ignored other musical threads. Do you see ulterior motives in that as well?
Some of us have consistently argued that power-sharinf with the IRA is doomed to fail, as well as being morally wrong. I can see from some of the comments on Slugger that when it comes to IRA murder, rose-coloured spectacles inform the vision of more than a few. I’ll leave you to fester as you all pretend that it wasn’t really the IRA behind this – just like it wasn’t the IRA behind the 39 MURDERS between 1994 and 2005. But hey – don’t worry, you can watch me talk about it on Hearts and Minds this Thursday, I’m sure Mick will give it a buildup as usual.
“A murder gang ran the Irish state. Another murder gang opposed that state, and what’s more, their political descendents still run the current iteration of it.” – Comrade Stalin
The difference being that one was a legitimate army that fought a war of independence which had a moral basis, a mandate, a reasonable prospect of success and no alternative means of securing is aims, and the other was a squalid sectarian murder gang which fought for political power and private gain within the United Kingdom, having no prospect of securing independence for Northern Ireland, had alternative political means but went for the violent option as a first resort, and had no moral basis for the attempt, since the only outcome to its murder campaign would have been a sectarian civil war between Catholics and protestants in Northern Ireland and an outright refusal by the southern state to intervene, leading to the UN intervening in the ethnic slaughter and building a Berlin-style wall along the murder.
Correction: …leading to the UN intervening in the ethnic slaughter and building a Berlin-style wall along the [b]border[/b].
“If the IRA were corporately involved in this murder, that may mean that the executive is finished in its current form.†[added emphasis]
Jeffrey Donaldson
Do the provos pay corporation tax, is there vat on fudge, questions questions?
Time for Sinn Fein/ira and the DUP to be removed from the Assembley, there can be no place in government for terrorists or their supporters/apologists.
*As Paisley said to the police officers at Drumcree, “don’t come running to me when they burn you out of your housesâ€.*
CS if you are going to allege that the First Minister was in some way complicit in violent attacks on policemen it would help if you could at least get some basic facts right first (not a strong point with you in the past I’ve noticed).
The comment you attribute to Paisley does not date from Drumcree but in fact from 1986 a mere decade earlier and in the context of the situation to which he was responding it can no way be seen to be a threat.
Following the signing of the Anglo-Irish Agreement there were many loyalist arson attacks on policemen’s homes. Several of these officers approached Paisley privately and asked him whether he could act quietly behind the scenes to stop these attacks, Paisley readily agreed and did what he could to help put an end to the petrol bombings of police homes.
However some months later the British government acting on the undemocratic orders of a foreign government suspended the Stormont Assembly to which Paisley had been elected, to protest this undemocratic decision Paisley and his collegues decided to continue sitting in the Assembly Hall. The RUC were called and several officers dragged Paisley by the arms and legs and ejected him bodily from the Chamber to which he had been democratically elected. The officers were seen to be laughing as they did so.
In response to this outrageous affront to the dignity of himself as a democratically elected party leader he reminded the policemen of his behind the scenes help at their request and pointed out, not unnaturally, that such unofficial assistance would not be forthcoming in the future.
Had I been as humiliated by policemen I don’t think I’d be doing them quiet favours either, however it would hardly be a threat if I pointed this out now would it?
as one who was there in 1986 I can confirm Harry’s version is accurate
yes cops who do their duty deserve no protection from arson. Especially not from people loyal to the state….
Anyway as I’m sure my kulak-hating friend will further testify that was hardly Paisley’s first dalliance with violence and the threats thereof.
Also how is it known Paisley had intervened to stop the initial round of arson, if it was all kept private? (this is a genuine question btw, I realise it is possible)
I see we’re back to the ould wordless deleting of my posts. What larks! I wonder if the bould Fealty evens knows that his little helpers are up to this helpful e-community policing? After all, *my goodness*, imagine the sinful awfulness of pointing out that the Provos aren’t and never were an army, but were in fact exactly the sort of cowards who’d, 15 to 1, gang up on someone and beat them to death. Thank goodness smears like that aren’t allow to stand.
Sean/Moosey,
“ahh but it was you who mentioned South Armagh crumby”
Yeah Sean/Moosey, re-read my post, I mentioned South Armagh in the context of IRA torturing & “justice”, I never mentioned Paul Quinns murder, if thats the best you can do after your ridiculously silly, & frankly embarrassing posts on this matter, just continue making a complete mug out of yourself!
You probably see yourself as some sort of poster boy for Sinn Fein in Canada, I bet even they see you as a numpty, or better still a patsy!
*yes cops who do their duty deserve no protection from arson. Especially not from people loyal to the state….*
Where in my post did I say that?
It is not Paisley’s job to protect policemen from arson that happens to be the job of their colleagues but if they’re going to ask him for private favours then the least they can do is not then to publicly humiliate the man in a building to which he had been democratically mandated to attend.
Harry,
But the British government had a mandate to close the assembly. So surely Paisley was being anti-democratic?
Why don’t we all take a big deep breath folks. None of us knows who murdered Paul Quinn and why.
If it was sanctioned by the IRA, the Executive will collapse. Simple as that.
If it was carried out by members of the IRA flying solo, Republicans will need to carry out a vigorous house-cleaning exercise, or the Executive will collapse. Simple as that.
If Republicans fail to co-operate fully with the police investigation into the murder, the Executive will collapse. Simple as that.
If, on the other hand, the IRA weren’t in any way involved, or if they help secure the conviction of some of their erstwhile comrades, then we should all learn to stop assuming that any crime that happens in a republican area has something to do with the IRA.
Step back, get on with your jobs, let the PSNI, Guards and IMC get on with their jobs.
Harry
sorry i thought of that after posting. You don’t. It was a comment criticising Paisley not you.
However, I would be surprised if you had extended the same extenuating spirit to similar actions from the nationalist side. OF course that is your perogative.
Sammy
You are of course talking sense. If these punters were genuinely ex-IRA, not just still in and acting in an unauthorised manner, what do you think the implications would be?
If these punters were genuinely ex-IRA, not just still in and acting in an unauthorised manner, what do you think the implications would be?
If that is the case – which we don’t know at this state – it would be the real test of the Republican Movement’s commitment to law and order; other people, including their coalition partners, will judge them on the leadership they give in helping to secure convictions for some of their erstwhile colleagues.
So far, SF politicians are passing any reasonable test; I don’t actually think this is a crisis yet, but it has the potential to become one in a matter of hours.
You probably see yourself as some sort of poster boy for Sinn Fein in Canada, I bet even they see you as a numpty, or better still a patsy!
Posted by Cromwell on Oct 23, 2007 @ 10:36 AM
Actually none of those, I hold many beliefs that are completely opposite to SF’s and have been told many times I am a bad republican till they remember I am Canadian and not a republican at all.
I just appreciate their point of view in relation to Ireland well except for that whole full blown socialism stuff. Moderate socialism involving caring for people in need and national health care is okay but that all for one and one for all crap never really works out.
Sean,
I just appreciate their point of view in relation to Ireland well except for that whole full blown socialism stuff. Moderate socialism involving caring for people in need and national health care is okay but that all for one and one for all crap never really works out.
So you appreciate their point of view except when you disagree with it, which is quite often, possibly then you should be a bit more circumspect when it comes to cheerleading their actions.
Sammy,
You are profoundly wrong.
The people of Cullyhanna appear to know who may have carried out the brutal murder of Paul Quinn. The family believes it was the IRA, the same IRA whose publicity department sit in Government. This is the fundamental problem with putting terrorists in Government, they just can’t help doing what comes naturally and for you to suggest that if it was a gaggle of south Armagh IRA hoods were responsible, it’s not about “house-cleaning” it is about removing the IRA from government, something peace processors shy away from since that it the raison d’etre of the whole damned process.
The people of Cullyhanna appear to know who may have carried out the brutal murder of Paul Quinn.
So people from Cullyhanna often share their political thoughts with you, do they David?
David Vance
You live in the same village as did Robin Jackson, the notorious sectarian killer.
Why did you not report his activities to the RUC?
Sammy,
So people from Cullyhanna often share their political thoughts with you, do they David?
Be fair. He said “appear” and “may”.
David Vance.
Show us the evidence David.Obviously with you around theres no need for a justice system, Guilty before charged is obviously better for you than innocent until proven guilty.Bring back internment but only for dem pesky taigs eh!
Cromwell you want me to condemn them for an action no one has proven they carried out…….just because you want it to be that way! Catch yourself on I don’t let anyone do my thinking for me least of all you! Which is why I dont let Sinn Fein do it either
Show me some proof other than wishfull thinking of the prodiban sock puppets and we will talk
Jo,
Try and stay on topic. You have no idea where I live and I have no interest in what you think.
Sammy Morse,
I refer you to Victoria O’Hara and Clare Neilly’s articles in the local press, for some reason the family think the Provos done it but then I guess they are biased, right?
Never mind, I hear Willie Frazer has come to their rescue.
There is much talk here about evidence of whether or not the IRA were involved in this murder. We need to be careful what we mean when we talk about evidence and how this evidence is construed.
I am not a lawyer but I am aware that the criminal standard of proof is beyond reasonable doubt. That is clearly the correct standard of proof required before anyone is convicted of a crime. Indeed should those alledged to be guilty of this murder ever stand trial that would, entirely appropriately, be the standard required to convict them. The reality is, however, that there are historical precedents for it being extremely difficult to achieve convictions of terrorists due to problems such as witness intimidation etc.
The standard of evidence by which we judge whether or not the IRA was involved in this killing may, however, be different. To decide that an organisation is behind such a murder may not require such a standard of proof. Since the IRA are meant to have gone away and no longer be a threat to society then it is rerasonable for a standard of proof such as balance of probabilities to be used. Some might even suggest that in view of the history of terrorist criminality in South Armagh and neighbouring areas of RoI it is up to the Republican movement to quite convincingly demonstrate that the IRA was not involved. It is biazzare to say the least to have a party in government with inextricable links to people who may have been involved in this murder not to mention many others.
In view of the allegations and the history of South Armagh’s troubled past the fact that it is reported that the residents of Cullyhanna are blaming the IRA is evidence. It is not yet conclusive but I would submit that it is enough to make people extremely suspicious that the IRA were involved.
As Rubicon has previously suggested on another thread Conor Murphy’s extremely rapid denial of republican involvement may be a way of telling people what not to see and so may actually be a device to prevent local people contacting the police with further evidence of IRA involvement.
I would, however, not be at all surprised if the police come under considerable pressure to not find IRA involvement or at least to not comment on it. The sight of Jeffrey Donaldson et al. potentially preparing the ground for saying this episode is not relevant to DUP involvement with SF in government is quite incredible; and as others have said, shows how some will adopt positions utterly antipathetic to those they so recently adopted in order to keep themselves in government.
DV,
If you’re going to allege that the people of Cullyhanna – to a man or woman – may know about who killed this young man, you must expect an question about whether you knew about the murderous activities of a man who lived in the village which you provide as your address in your contributions to the News Letter.
Its reasonable to assume – by the standard that you’re applying to the people of south Armagh – that you, in your turn, knew about Jackson’s activity and therefore, why won’t you answer my question?
Jo,
Because it is;
a/ Inane.
b/ Irrelevant.
I don’t comment here often and when I read the drivel you pour out on these threads, I remember why. On the other hand, many others here make serious points so perhaps it is unfair to Slugger by the dross you posit on it.
You’ve refused to answer twice.
I’ll be charitable and conclude, be it ever so unlikely, that you don’t know about Mr Jackson’s activity. In that case you’re like the people of Cullyhanna, who, contrary to the sectarian assumption you make, are equally unknowing of who was responsible for the Quinn murder.
I’ll leave it to others to make whatever deductions they want from your refusal to respond to the consequences of the things you say.
In view of the allegations and the history of South Armagh’s troubled past the fact that it is reported that the residents of Cullyhanna are blaming the IRA is evidence. It is not yet conclusive but I would submit that it is enough to make people extremely suspicious that the IRA were involved
I have not seen where any residents of Culluhanna say the IRA were involved could you provide a link turgon
Turgon
Isnt what you’re saying a bit close to the idea that the republican movement have to prove a negative? which i dont think is realistic
I am sure the family views of PIRA involvement are honestly held, and some other asoects of the case point to their involvement. Not conclusive proof though I would have thought.
David Vance, I merely observed that the issue obviously didn’t get you excited enough to come over here and troll on Slugger, in the way that you are regarding this issue.
But hey – don’t worry, you can watch me talk about it on Hearts and Minds this Thursday, I’m sure Mick will give it a buildup as usual.
Still taking money from the BBC despite your criticisms of that organization. I’m glad to see your principles are intact.
Harry Flashman,
The point still stands, that the DUP are the same as Sinn Fein. The comment in question clearly sends out the message that Paisley won’t intervene if someone’s life is in danger. Not only is this granting sympathy to terrorism, it’s a failure to support the rule of law. Both of these in today’s terms would warrant a removal from power, and call into question the DUP’s support for the rule of law.
It’s illuminating that Paisley was able to stop attacks. Does that mean that he talked to terrorists ? Were there situations where Paisley did not intervene to use that influence to stop other attacks ? This seems to open a whole can of worms.
It is not Paisley’s job to protect policemen from arson that happens to be the job of their colleagues
Does that apply to Gerry Adams ?
Turgon:
I am not a lawyer but I am aware that the criminal standard of proof is beyond reasonable doubt.
I’d love to see the IRA bringing a libel/slander case.
I wonder,
Don’t count on getting a straight answer from David Vance. He is a troll.
Sean,
I can only report what has been said in the press, the Belfast telegraph contains multiple refrences to it:-http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/
Andy,
I have been careful not to demand that the republican movement prove a negative. In this case, however, rapid and obvious cooperation with the police by SF members and politicians would probably prove the negative quite easily if indeed the answer is negative.
Comrade Stalin,
Is this the standard of debate here? The trolls on Slugger are legion, hiding behind pathetic assumed names and they do nothing to broaden debate. However that is Mick’s issue, not mine. I will comment here as and when I see fit, and if Mr Slugger has an issue with this, he knows my email address. For some reason, he doesn’t seem to have your hang-ups with my presence!
Turgon
Yes I appreciate you had phrased yourself carefully. I wasnt having a pop just wanted you to explore the idea – which you have now done. IMHO they are doing what you say by calling on people to co-operate. I would doubt (but would not be sure) they have info which is not available to mi5 / whatever they call special branch nowadays/ military intelligence
Andy,
Whatever SF leaders or others know, their assistance of the enquiry in a very public fashion would be more useful than blanket statements such as Conor Murphy’s; if indeed they do want to help the police enquiry.
If leading SF members very publicly went to the police and stated (clearly in private) whom they suspected and what they had been told etc., this would send a clear message that SF genuninely wanted people to go to the police. That would relieve some of the suspicion which Rubicon has pointed out that Murphy’s comments are actually an attempt to prevent rather than procure help for the police.
Apparently the Gardai know exactly who they were and they are calling them former IRA so what exactly do you want? the Police know the names and do you really believe if the names came from Adams that would lead to convictions? Maybe in the old Diplock courts but then their standard of proof was non-existant.
Plus how exactly do they compel someone to testify?
If indeed the Provies were involved in this, as looks to be the case, that’s it as far as I’m concerned regarding SF running the government of my land. I supported the DUP going into government with SF and sharing power with them, but if they can’t control their motley crew of drug dealing, alcoholic, pimping parasites in the RA, then they have no place in the government of any civilised country, regardless of what that means for the “peace process”…
Don’t be daft. With both the political cover and any threat of physical retaliation removed, the remnants of the army council can no more control the hyenas out in the wild than the UPRG could ever control the similar drug-dealing, murdering thugs they claim to ‘advise’.
Murders are murders, murderers are murderers and crime should always have been handled for what it was, instead of the political and nationalistic cover all sides were more than willing to hide behind.
If MLAs ordered someone murdered, feel free to charge them and lock them up forever — that’s the way real grown-up countries are meant to work — but quit threatening to take your political ball home crying to Mommy Westminster every time a republican or loyalist happens to do something horrific.
Turgon
I appreciate you are trying to find a positive way forward but I respectfully disagree. I think going to the pSNI would be viewed as a publicity stunt by some and a atacit admission of involvmeent by others.
“Don’t count on getting a straight answer from David Vance.”
I never have.
1 The murder gang uses “acquaintances” to entice the deceased to his death.
2 These acquaintances were also beaten –presumably to make them co-operate?
3 These acquiantances know who the perpatrators are?
Why are the perpetrators still walking about?
Who is pressuring who to protect them?
If the victims are to frightened to identify the perps -what does that say about South Armagh?
what does that say about N I?